Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+87
ALAMO
Mir
Russian_Patriot_
mavaff
The_Observer
lancelot
lyle6
ahmedfire
limb
Big_Gazza
marcellogo
Mindstorm
kvs
calripson
Hole
PhSt
AJ-47
bolshevik345
Walther von Oldenburg
The-thing-next-door
miketheterrible
dino00
JohninMK
LMFS
General
KomissarBojanchev
Peŕrier
kopyo-21
wilhelm
Interlinked
BM-21
Book.
Cheetah
0nillie0
SeigSoloyvov
franco
Isos
MonkeymodelBananaRepublic
KiloGolf
Benya
airstrike
galicije83
VladimirSahin
DerWolf
nemrod
d_taddei2
PapaDragon
hoom
higurashihougi
KoTeMoRe
sepheronx
Mike E
Kimppis
cracker
Kyo
akd
runaway
Morpheus Eberhardt
zino
Pugnax
xeno
Vann7
Werewolf
magnumcromagnon
Asf
Zivo
collegeboy16
George1
volna
zg18
flamming_python
TR1
Regular
a89
Vympel
AlfaT8
Stealthflanker
Dima
TheArmenian
medo
Cyberspec
BTRfan
Viktor
IronsightSniper
Austin
GarryB
Admin
91 posters

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    lyle6
    lyle6

    Posts : 795
    Points : 797
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  lyle6 Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:58 am

    limb wrote:
    I mean every single other MBT tank in service other than the T-72 and T-64 has a better reverse speed than it(including the T-80 and T-14) because shooting and scooting matters.  4km/h  is pathetic. It's not 1965  anymore where Soviet  tanks are expected to suicidally charge and never reverse.

    The T-55 and T-62 have better reverse speed. Let that sink in.

    Russians see the tank as the modern cavalry. As such most tactics boil down to charging forwards, preferably at the rear or flanks of the enemy, and with speed and aggression to inflict decisive shock on the enemy and break through his line, like the cavalry of yore. Russians don't really do static defenses much, since even in a defensive posture they prefer to husband the majority of the tanks as a mobile reserve for counter attacks and the fact that a static target is an easy target for airpower and artillery.

    In any case, the minority of tanks that do get allocated to hold static positions can make use of the integral dozer blade (standard for every Russian tank, a rarity in NATO ones) to dig several firing positions. They can then quickly cycle through said positions in a sort of caracole in defilade, appearing in a keyhole randomly and firing every now and then. This is vastly superior to the motionless hull down since a constantly moving target is exponentially harder to hit with artillery or air strikes, which the Russians do plan on using vigorously to punish their opponents that rely on such mundane tactics.

    The T-14 is a special case. The MBT and the IFV were both required to have the same power pack and the IFV has to have the rear doors while the MBT the rear engine. The only real way to satisfy all requirements is to have a transmission with the same forwards and reverse speeds. Ironically with the T-14 there is zero need for a turret down position what with the unmanned turret anyway, so in theory it can just stay hull down indefinitely while patiently sniping at targets confident that at best the enemy can only disable the main gun or the optics, which are both very small and hard to hit anyway:
    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 UxQSXIo
    compared with the manned turret:
    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 XkFQ0O1

    GarryB, kvs, Hole and Mir like this post

    Mir
    Mir

    Posts : 886
    Points : 888
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  Mir Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:23 pm

    I do agree with Limb though - there is no harm in having a speedy reverse gear to quickly move out of trouble. Turning around in a fire fight is a very bad idea.
    lyle6
    lyle6

    Posts : 795
    Points : 797
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  lyle6 Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:51 pm

    Mir wrote:I do agree with Limb though - there is no harm in having a speedy reverse gear to quickly move out of trouble. Turning around in a fire fight is a very bad idea.
    Yes, its a nice to have. But my point is that equipment has to be optimized according to how you plan to fight. If you don't plan on conducting fighting retreats as the centerpiece of your tank tactics, you are probably better off deleting the speed requirements for reversing altogether.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31010
    Points : 31536
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:44 am

    It is not an engine issue, it is a transmission issue, so if they wanted faster reverse speeds they could have them simply enough.

    AFAIK the T-72 has two reverse gears which makes it sound very unlikely that its max reverse speed is 4km/h.

    But turning around in combat is normal and expected because it is the job of the Commander to order the gunner to fire on the most dangerous threat and the driver to keep hull down or the front hull armour pointed in the direction of the biggest threat too.

    I am happy that the work on the T-72 upgrades are with new optics and new communications and electronics and new ERA and new APS being fitted... it also has a new engine and new transmission so the reverse speed might not be a problem anyway.
    avatar
    ALAMO

    Posts : 752
    Points : 754
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:15 am

    Nope, all 72 up to B3 retained the same scheme of a gearbox, that is 7 gears forward and 1 reverse. The automatic one is just the same.
    It is Czech modernization using an Israeli powerpack that has 2 reverse gears.
    Polish PT-91 gets the better RENK transmission later on, too.
    Not sure where the 4 km/h came from, but it is a matter of gearbox ratios only.
    Plain 72s has very high reverse gear ratios of 14+ if I remember correctly, which results in high torque yet limited maximal speed.
    That means, it can jump backward very dynamic, still can't drive fast that way.
    That is why Russkies never did, that maneuver is used for a static defense from the preorganized stands when a tank jumps backward after the shoot to hide behind the earth wall or engineered obstacles.
    Take a look at the latest tank maneuvers in defense, they already mastered the Syrian experience of operating behind a massive hearth wall, with tanks driving in a circle at different speeds.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31010
    Points : 31536
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:31 am



    From 15:32 you can see dug in positions for tanks to fire from... when they are in position at the front of the earthworks they present their turrets with their hulls hidden... once they fire they reverse back and there is a ramp angled downwards so they are completely covered from the front and not visible at all.

    Also in the video you will see a mix of T-72s moving forward in open fields in attack formations and also firing from dug in positions where the forward firing position is raised so that only their turret is exposed so they can fire but their hull is protected by earth, and they can reverse 2-3 metres and the ground has a ramp downwards so they can be completely hidden and then drive forward and expose only their turrets... look and fire if they need to and then reverse back and be behind cover again in seconds.

    In urban conditions they would normally drive around to the front of a building and then reverse back into it so it partially collapses on them for cover.

    When they fire and reveal their location they generally reverse through the building and out the back... which requires more torque than speed...

    medo, George1, Big_Gazza and lyle6 like this post

    franco
    franco

    Posts : 4490
    Points : 4522
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  franco Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:55 pm

    franco wrote:
    George1 wrote:so according to the article above we have:
    750 T-72B3s
    480 T-72B3Ms

    And according to the IISS 2021 World Military Balance there are:
    - 1150 T-72B3
    - 570 T-72B3M

    Personally I feel that the IISS is too high and altyn73 is too low...so Smile

    The Swedish Defense Research Institute (FOI) has tracked the following T-72B's upgraded:

    2011-2015 - 920 units
    2016-2018 - 390 units
    2019-2021 - by my count close to another 390 units

    flamming_python and miketheterrible like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31010
    Points : 31536
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:52 am

    Nope, all 72 up to B3 retained the same scheme of a gearbox, that is 7 gears forward and 1 reverse. The automatic one is just the same.

    The T-72 has had over a dozen upgrades since it entered service and any one of those upgrades could have had extra reverse gears for higher reverse speeds if they wanted that.... they clearly do not care.

    The purpose of the T-90AM was to resolve and fix as many fundamental problems with the original as they possibly could before the from scratch new generation replacement entered service (T-14).

    It was the same with the AK-12 and the Su-35 and MiG-35 and Mi-28NM and Ka-52M upgraded versions.

    Some of which we have seen the next gen replacements (Su-57 and LMFS) and some we have not.

    The point is that if the T-90AM does not reverse faster then it clearly is not seen as a problem...

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    The_Observer
    The_Observer

    Posts : 84
    Points : 86
    Join date : 2021-01-03

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  The_Observer Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:14 am

    A batch of 23 modernized T-72B3M tanks entered service with the tank unit of the ZVO combined-arms formation stationed in the Kaliningrad region

    The military group in the Kaliningrad region is reinforced with new tanks
    07.10.2021 13:29:45
          Moscow. October 7th. INTERFAX - The army corps stationed in the Kaliningrad region received a batch of 23 modernized T-72B3M tanks, the Russian Baltic Fleet said on Thursday.
          "A batch of 23 modernized T-72B3M tanks entered service with the tank unit of the ZVO combined-arms formation stationed in the Kaliningrad region," the message says.
          Earlier it was officially announced about the creation of a new motorized rifle division in the Kaliningrad region. The Russian military said the division was being formed in response to increased NATO activity near Russian borders.
          The T-72B3M is one of the new products that was demonstrated in 2018 at the Army military-technical forum. This is a deeply modernized version of the T-72 main battle tank.
          The T-72B3M is equipped with a new 1130 hp diesel engine, additional protection for the turret, side projections and bottom. The car is equipped with modern day-to-day fire control systems, digital communications and a number of other new systems.
          In recent years, Russia has strengthened its military infrastructure in the Kaliningrad region.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=558391&lang=RU

    franco, George1 and d_taddei2 like this post


    Sponsored content

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 31 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:27 am