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65 posters

    Su-27: News

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:20 pm

    Honestly, if it is true how Wagner took over older Su-24's and now operate them in the SMO, it would be interesting to give them the Su-27's and see what they can do. What they come up with in terms of upgrades, maintenance and use in the battlefield.

    Or

    Hand these over to allies like Syria which needed the jets.

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:51 pm

    @franco

    At the time of the start of the SVO, there were 20 units (on the list in service with the Russian Aerospace Forces) Su-27, 10 pcs. Su-27UB, 47 pcs. Su-27SM and 24 pcs. Su-27SM3. In addition, a number of Su-27P aircraft are in storage.

    According to official data, by the end of 2020, the almost complete decommissioning of the Su-27P and Su-27SM aircraft, which were ending their flight life, was expected. Naturally, with the beginning of the SVO, the aircraft continued to serve, which was repeatedly recorded by both our and Western media.

    this is not correct, there is only one squadron of 12 Su-27SM in operation and one squadron of 12 Su-27 S/P in Belbek.
    Also the regiment of Su-27SM3 in Krymsk
    total 48. The two seaters in both regiments are Su-30M2
    It is possible to bet that the regiments will be increased to 3 squadrons
    A few more for trianing, 10 Su-27UB in Kushchevskaya and 4 or 5 in Lipetsk

    In the Navy there are 20 Su-27P and 4 Su-27UB in Kaliningrad

    The rest of Su-27SM are in reserve and also a lot of previous versions.
    You can find in Google Maps about 40 Su-27 stored in Besovets, one dozen in Khotilovo and more than 15 in Krymsk

    @Isos

    They have not replaced them at all.

    They have to increase production to at least 15 su-35 annually every year and at least 12 su-57 per year if not more. This way they will get 150 more su-35 and 120 su-57 in 10 years.

    I don't really like the su-30 but if its price is as low as the 16 million $ claimed in that article from few months ago then they should make a total of 300 of them as a multirole jet. According to that article su-35 is 2 times more expensive than su-30 and su-57 is slightly more expensive than su-57... For such price su-30 is very good but if it is any more expensive su-35 is a better choice.

    Once su-75 is ready stop both su-35 and su-30 and buy only su-75 and su-57.

    250 su-35, 120 su-57, 300 su-30 in 10 years is a good deal. Then from 2027, su-75 will start being produced and they can get some 48-96 till 2032 if they produce 10-20 per year, depending on the production.

    This will not happen

    The size of the air force will increase a bit, another Military district will be created in the Leningrad area which will make room for some additional fighter regiments, but the biggest increase has to come from increasing the number of squadrons to 3 in each regiment.
    I think the fighter regiments will have two types of fighters, 2 squadrons of Su-57 or MiG-31 and the third squadron of Su-35, as it happens now in Khotilovo or Vladivostok. So young pilots will start with the Su-35 after the flight academy with the Yak-130, and then move on to the Su-57 or MiG-31 (and then the successor to it).
    During the USSR the third squadron of the regiments was the squadron of the youngest pilots.

    Regarding the Su-75, yes, I think there will be this type of aircraft in the Navy, in a shipborne version and in a normal version for places like Kaliningrad and Crimea

    Aircraft production will be ramped up in 2023 and beyond to meet the needs of the Special Military Operation in Ukraine and Su-30SM production should be ended in a short time, a couple of years, as regiments have to be finished in Kaliningrad and Saki, but I think that in the other two fleets the VKS aircraft will be transferred after modernization
    About Armenia I would bet on the Su-35 and not the Su-30SM. There is no point in having Su-30SM in the VKS beyond the double aircraft of the Su-35 squadrons
    For the Su-35, no more than 6 squadrons would be needed, plus Armenia, a total of 90 that could be made in a few years, about 5 if production is accelerated.

    On the Su-57 you will have three regiments in 2028 and double in 2035

    Regarding the price of planes, it does not make sense to express it in dollars since Russia does not pay in dollars and the level of cost of living is different in each country, which currency exchange take the 100 rubles per dollar in March or the 50-60 from now, or the 28 of 2012?
    If you buy an Su-35 from Russia, it will not sell it to you for less than 100 million dollars, as in the case of Indonesia, which was cancelled.

    @sepheronx
    Honestly, if it is true how Wagner took over older Su-24's and now operate them in the SMO, it would be interesting to give them the Su-27's and see what they can do. What they come up with in terms of upgrades, maintenance and use in the battlefield.
    Or
    Hand these over to allies like Syria which needed the jets.

    The Wagner Group is an employee recruitment company like Randstad

    The reason Wagner employees are flying the Su-24 and Su-25 (they probably have the MiG-29 as well) is that the new pilots are training on new planes like the Su-34 and Su-35, however the pilots of the Military Reserve of Army Specialists (BARS) who are hired have experience precisely in old Soviet aircraft
    Wagner hires employees with military experience in more risky jobs like stormtroopers and assault planes, the risk is higher but the pay is higher.(conscripts in mobilization don't go to these front-line positions)

    However, the airplanes are not operated by Wagner Group but from the VKS

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:53 pm

    Well they will have to increase number of regiments.

    China is producing hundreds of jets. Nato is also fielding a shitton of f-35.

    Those 100 su-35 are not enough. Even less when you see the size of Russia. The minimum would be to have 600-700 fighters in total. Not including bomberz like su-34 or interceptors like mig 31 which is also decreasing in numbers.


    The su-27SM could definitly go to Syria which desperatly need fighters. Su-27P are useless and too old. They reached their end. Gift them 12 Su-27SM + 12 mig-29SMT and a couple of the first variants of Su-30 for training.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:55 pm

    I agree with isos here. Russia needs to increase its airforce numbers considerably, considering that neighbors and enemies alike are increasing theirs. And with russias large airspace , it only makes sense.

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:10 pm

    @sepheronx

    I agree with isos here. Russia needs to increase its airforce numbers considerably, considering that neighbors and enemies alike are increasing theirs. And with russias large airspace , it only makes sense.

    OK, but the question is Shougu have different plans for VKS and Navy Aviation

    Poland , Romania and Finland have a shit of Airforce. This war is mainly a land war


    @Isos

    Well they will have to increase number of regiments.

    China is producing hundreds of jets. Nato is also fielding a shitton of f-35.

    Those 100 su-35 are not enough. Even less when you see the size of Russia. The minimum would be to have 600-700 fighters in total. Not including bomberz like su-34 or interceptors like mig 31 which is also decreasing in numbers.

    The su-27SM could definitly go to Syria which desperatly need fighters. Su-27P are useless and too old. They reached their end. Gift them 12 Su-27SM + 12 mig-29SMT and a couple of the first variants of Su-30 for training.

    The number of regiments will not increase substantially in the VKS, the Leningrad Military District and the Moscow Military District will be revived from the Western Military District (probably including the Monchegorsk regiment in Leningrad Regiment)

    A new fighter regiment have been announced which will probably go to this new Leningrad Military District. That is all.

    By 2030-2040 the Navy Aviation will be reformed and that will include 2 new fighter regiments for aircraft carriers (North and Pacific Fleets) and the transfer from VKS of Su-30SM for two new regiments  (North and Pacific) after more Su-57 will be received in VKS
    The number of fighters will grow slightly given the foreseeable increase from 2 to 3 squadrons, it is not seen anywhere that there will be half a dozen new fighter bases

    In total you will have approximately:
    160 MiG-31 (to be replaced)
    160-170 Su-57 (190-200 if there are two seats)
    190-200 Su-35 (inluding Armenia)
    160 Su-30 (100 in the Navy)
    In the longer term there will also be about 160 Su-75s in the Navy, half for aircraft carriers.
    The total number of fighters can be around 850
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:38 pm

    160 Mig-31 ? I thought they planned only 90 or so.

    170 su-57 would be good but looking at the orders, 24 then 78 till 2027 means you will get 170 of them in 25 years. And tge link showed its 3 times more expebsive even in rubles.

    200 su-35 will happen they already order 140 in total out of which 110 delivered.

    They order less su-30 than su-35 and may stop it but your 160 figure isn't biased they already have around 100 of them.

    But when you compare to the 500+ J-11 China is fielding, it becomes pathetic. Not to mention that they still lack a good stock of air to air missiles for those su-30/35. R-77M isn't ready and r-37 is big and they hardly have more than few tens of them that they will need for the mig-31 also. Meanwhile China and nato are having huge stocks of pl-15/21 and aim-120D/Meteor. R-77-1 is already outmatched.

    Su-75 for carriers is a wet dream. They made it clear carriers aren't for tomorrow and they won't put a fighter that isn't in service with the airforce directly on a carrier. Even if they start the carrier in 2023 it will take 15-20 years to finish it and finish its testing at best. Until then they will have a next gen sukhoi or su-57 that will be mastered by then.
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:19 am

    @Isos


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    160 Mig-31 ? I thought they planned only 90 or so.

    170 su-57 would be good but looking at the orders, 24 then 78 till 2027 means you will get 170 of them in 25 years. And tge link showed its 3 times more expebsive even in rubles.

    200 su-35 will happen they already order 140 in total out of which 110 delivered.

    They order less su-30 than su-35 and may stop it but your 160 figure isn't biased they already have around 100 of them.

    But when you compare to the 500+ J-11 China is fielding, it becomes pathetic. Not to mention that they still lack a good stock of air to air missiles for those su-30/35. R-77M isn't ready and r-37 is big and they hardly have more than few tens of them that they will need for the mig-31 also. Meanwhile China and nato are having huge stocks of pl-15/21 and aim-120D/Meteor. R-77-1 is already outmatched.

    Su-75 for carriers is a wet dream. They made it clear carriers aren't for tomorrow and they won't put a fighter that isn't in service with the airforce directly on a carrier. Even if they start the carrier in 2023 it will take 15-20 years to finish it and finish its testing at best. Until then they will have a next gen sukhoi or su-57 that will be mastered by then.

    90 MiG-31? where did you spend the last 5 years? About 150 MiG-31 were upgraded, although 8 were lost, around 140 remain and about 17 more are needed in Yelizovo, apart from a few more to replace the losses.

    In addition, a complete regiment of 24 MiG-31K was updated

    The Su-30SM is close to completion, the contract for 21 raised to 137 those contracted, one more squadron is missing for Saki and more for double seats for future Su-35s, in addition to replacing losses. The end was scheduled for 2023, give it another year or two, so far 122 have been delivered and another batch will be delivered before the end of the year

    The Su-35 can be completed by receiving 15 a year until 2028, that is, 90 more
    The Su-57 with 12 a year has 76 in 2028 and by 2035 it will be complete at the same rate

    A large-scale attack on Russia is impossible, that would be the end of the American regime forever (7 billion people outside "the west" would applaud)

    NATO only aspires to harass Russia in its periphery and achieve some temporary advantage at the local level to advance little by little and weak down Russia, which is what they have been doing since 1945 (Korea Vietnam, Afghanistan Iraq, Syria, Libya... )

    China is a different thing, China's mission is to end colonialism forever, and that implies a regime change or the destruction of the USA as a unified state

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    Post  limb Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:44 am

    Why isnt the R-77M ready?
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:43 am

    Isos wrote:170 su-57 would be good but looking at the orders, 24 then 78 till 2027 means you will get 170 of them in 25 years. And tge link showed its 3 times more expebsive even in rubles.
    What makes you think the Russian government will not increase the Su-57 order further? Especially now that they basically doubled the military budget. As for the production cost of Su-57 being higher, I do not remember that being the case. IIRC it cost about the same as the Su-35. Look, the RuAF signed a contract for 50x Su-35 in 2015, at 100 billion rubles. That is 2 billion rubles each. Then the RuAF signed a contract for 76x Su-57 in 2019, at 2.236 billion rubles each. The price difference of like 10% can easily be explained with inflation.

    Isos wrote:But when you compare to the 500+ J-11 China is fielding, it becomes pathetic. Not to mention that they still lack a good stock of air to air missiles for those su-30/35. R-77M isn't ready and r-37 is big and they hardly have more than few tens of them that they will need for the mig-31 also. Meanwhile China and nato are having huge stocks of pl-15/21 and aim-120D/Meteor. R-77-1 is already outmatched.
    No. What is pathetic is you crying about the AIM-120D when Russia already has the R-37M in service. We have seen it in wide use in the Ukrainian conflict. Not just "tens" like you claim. Even the Su-35s are using them. They have already shot down aircraft in combat use. Even the Ukrainians claimed Russia was shooting at least 1-2 of them a day. How is that "tens of them" total? There is no missile gap. Period. If anything it is NATO that is outmatched. While it would be "nice" to have a lower weight long range missile it is less critical to get it since R-37M is in service. I expect R-77M to enter service once Su-57M enters mass production.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:14 am

    Their next missile is the Article 815 which based on the numbers given for its superiority over the R-37M suggest to me that it is scramjet powered.

    The Russian AF does need more aircraft, but will do that in two ways to make it affordable... the first will be the introduction of a light fighter, whether that is the MiG-35 or not remains to be seen, we have seen the Checkmate but it has not flown yet so we can know MiG has rivals for that role and that the Russian military probably does not want a Sukhoi monopoly on fighters and strike and CAS aircraft in Russia, which is in favour of any entry MiG might put forward.

    The MiG-35 or its 5th gen equivalent are obviously the numbers aircraft, and in addition drones like the S-70 will help fill out numbers where needed without having to spend 120 million per aircraft and 90K pounds per flight hour in operating costs like the F-35.

    The new generation of Russian Air to air missiles are likely being perfected and will be in service by the time we find out what will replace the MiG-35... note the Su-27 had a long gap between starting production and getting into service because Soviet industry had problems producing its radar and IRST systems... so it is not surprise their might be early model MiG-35s with early model sensors... once they are in serial production new radars can be fitted easily enough and they can already use a wide range of weapons... including compatibility with the R-37M.

    The low opinion in the west is ironic because they tested and practised against downgraded export model East German MiG-29Bs and now they think they can beat them... but every model since then has been upgraded and improved and it is currently a very different aircraft... but the west lives in the past...

    And the Su-30 costing half what the Su-35 costs wont last when they upgrade the aircraft with Su-35 systems to make it essentially a two seat Su-35.
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    Post  AMCXXL Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:39 am

    @GarryB


    The Russian AF does need more aircraft, but will do that in two ways to make it affordable... the first will be the introduction of a light fighter, whether that is the MiG-35 or not remains to be seen, we have seen the Checkmate but it has not flown yet so we can know MiG has rivals for that role and that the Russian military probably does not want a Sukhoi monopoly on fighters and strike and CAS aircraft in Russia, which is in favour of any entry MiG might put forward.

    The MiG-35 or its 5th gen equivalent are obviously the numbers aircraft, and in addition drones like the S-70 will help fill out numbers where needed without having to spend 120 million per aircraft and 90K pounds per flight hour in operating costs like the F-35.

    The new generation of Russian Air to air missiles are likely being perfected and will be in service by the time we find out what will replace the MiG-35... note the Su-27 had a long gap between starting production and getting into service because Soviet industry had problems producing its radar and IRST systems... so it is not surprise their might be early model MiG-35s with early model sensors... once they are in serial production new radars can be fitted easily enough and they can already use a wide range of weapons... including compatibility with the R-37M.

    The low opinion in the west is ironic because they tested and practised against downgraded export model East German MiG-29Bs and now they think they can beat them... but every model since then has been upgraded and improved and it is currently a very different aircraft... but the west lives in the past...

    And the Su-30 costing half what the Su-35 costs wont last when they upgrade the aircraft with Su-35 systems to make it essentially a two seat Su-35.

    This will not happen, MiG-35 is for export, Russia does not want ligth aircraft, for that have missile tantical regiments and drones

    You only have to see what tyoe of airplanes have:
    In Lipetsk:
    squadron Su-35/Su-30
    sq. MiG-31BM
    sq. Su-57 will be formed replacing MiG-29
    sq. Su-34
    sq. Su-24M/MR to replace by more Su-34
    sq. Su-25 that will replaced by more Su-34 after 2028

    even the Astrakhan regiment have received Su-35

    You will have two types of regiments in VKS:

    figthers with 1º AE and 2º AE of Su-57 or MiG-31 and 3º AE of Su-35 in both cases
    bombers with Su-34 (third AE specialized in recon)

    the Navy will have Su-30 and Su-75

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:40 am

    This will not happen, MiG-35 is for export, Russia does not want ligth aircraft, for that have missile tantical regiments and drones

    That was the main idea in the 2000s. Now they saw how useless it is to have a huge su-35 for operation like in Syria or Ukraibe they will want somethinh cheaper and simplier like a su-75.

    The kh-59, r-77-1 and dumb bombs that the flankers used there could have all been used by a single engine for most missions.

    Even the pakistani jf-17 did a great job against India.

    A su-75 will do the work for most misions. Bigger su-35 are  better for long range heavy load missions so they won't be replaced but they have to buy a single engine aircraft.

    With modern radar and missiles a light aircraft can beat the bigger one.


    Edit: Just yesterday Choigu said they need to rise the number of personnel from around 1 million to 1.5 million people. That's a 50% increase. I guess that implies a 50% increase in the ar force since more people on the ground need more aircraft in the sky.
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    Post  AMCXXL Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:20 am

    @Isos


    Edit: Just yesterday Choigu said they need to rise the number of personnel from around 1 million to 1.5 million people. That's a 50% increase. I guess that implies a 50% increase in the ar force since more people on the ground need more aircraft in the sky.

    Yes, for that I say I see regiments with three squadrons instead 2, this is 50% of increase
    the helicopter regiments will be brigades
    in the army all brigades become divisions, etc...
    each tank army will have a mixed aviation division and a helicopter brigade with near 100 helicopters.

    this is simply raising a wartime army

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:51 am

    I don't follow at all those organization and name chabges of regiments and sqadrons... what really matter at the end is the number of pilots and planes.

    They use to change regularly the organization of their units but without increasing numbers of planes.

    A bit like they replaced hundreds of mig-29s with not even 100 su-30.

    Their aircraft number decreased a lot since 1990s. And the newer the planes are the less they buy. Don't expect su-57 to replace 1 for 1 the flankers. That's why they need even more a light fighter in the form of su-75 which shares its technology with su-57.

    For the export su-75 is way more suited than su-57. There is maybe 1 or 2 countries that can afford it and not in huge numbers when su-75 can be bought by tens of countries and by keeping the price very low they can sell tens of them to each client.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:20 pm

    Not every mission requires super long range heavy fighters, and missions to patrol an area to protect it from air attack requires aircraft to remain locally and cruise around looking for targets... a smaller lighter cheaper fighter can do that better than a bigger heavier more expensive fighter.

    Lighter fighters make good sense, the analogy is similar for an aircraft carrier... it has physical limitations as to how many aircraft you can carry... there are also limitations on how many aircraft you can launch and recover within a given time period so having millions of fighters does not help if you can only get a dozen or so airborne every 10 minutes.

    The point is that if you have all heavy fighters that reduces the number of aircraft you can have on board your carrier and when enemy action starts taking out a few aircraft you feel the losses much more acutely, whether by enemy action or by accident or pilot error.

    Having some big long range aircraft with enough internal fuel to go full AB out to 1,500km to intercept something but with the fuel to be able to fly back to base safely afterwards is useful but you don't want all your aircraft to leave your airbase open and exposed to a sneak attack from a different direction by a different force... having a 25% heavy long range fighter regiment plus 75% light fighter regiment means you can have rather more aircraft, the savings on the purchase price will be significant, but the operational costs saving will be ongoing and benefit the fighting force by allowing more aircraft to be operating together meaning less likely to be overwhelmed.

    Fighting in the Ukraine is not the same as WWIII because HATO has a lot more planes that will be more difficult to dominate compared with what the Ukraine had.

    Besides it would balance out a monopoly that Sukhoi currently enjoys that is not healthy... Su-57, Su-35, Su-30, plus medium strike Su-34, and light CAS Su-25... do they need more work?

    Putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad thing.

    They use to change regularly the organization of their units but without increasing numbers of planes.

    A bit like they replaced hundreds of mig-29s with not even 100 su-30.

    Indeed, I don't follow all those unit changes, but they lost a lot of single engined light fighter bombers from the cold war when they decided to replace them all with twin engined aircraft.

    The Su-17M4 and MiG-27M and MiG-27K and the Mig-23 and MiG-21 were available in enormous numbers, and while their swing role capacity was not amazing for the latter fighters, the former Su-17 and MiG-27s were very capable aircraft in their area of attack...

    They were supposed to be replaced by MiG-29s, which could have happened with the SMT upgrade making them at least as good as the aircraft they replaced in the areas of attack and air to air combat with new missiles and bombs, but they didn't buy the upgrade and just cut away all these swing singles and replaced them with nothing... to the point where in Chechnia they lost Su-27s trying to fly ground attack missions for goodness sake.

    They haven't got enough Su-25s to just use those instead, and helicopters are not the same.

    Talk about the Su-75 being the solution, well the MiG-35 is the non stealthy equivalent and could be put into production now... by the time the Su-75 gets into serial production for the export market the MiGs problems could be all sorted out and it could be a very good solid reliable aircraft that is cheap to operate but capable for what it does.

    Getting them into production would give MiG and the companies that work with them some money to spend improving and upgrading and developing, while for the Russian airforce it is a cheaper numbers aircraft that has the potential to be rather capable.
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    Post  AMCXXL Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Not every mission requires super long range heavy fighters, and missions to patrol an area to protect it from air attack requires aircraft to remain locally and cruise around looking for targets... a smaller lighter cheaper fighter can do that better than a bigger heavier more expensive fighter.

    Lighter fighters make good sense, the analogy is similar for an aircraft carrier... it has physical limitations as to how many aircraft you can carry... there are also limitations on how many aircraft you can launch and recover within a given time period so having millions of fighters does not help if you can only get a dozen or so airborne every 10 minutes.

    OK, just try to convince Shoigu

    With missiles and drones, half of tactical aviation is redundant.
    What the United States is doing buying F-35s and spending a trillion on the program can only be explained by the massive corruption that exists in the Babylonian harlot that is Washington.

    Russia is a land power that also has support with the Navy and Aviation, they are complementary branches of the Land Army

    Fighting in the Ukraine is not the same as WWIII because HATO has a lot more planes that will be more difficult to dominate compared with what the Ukraine had.

    Ukraine is the Infantry Army of the NATO, as ISIS is a surrogate army

    A direct attack of NATO against Russia means the destruction of all USA bases in Europe,
    If there are response, then MDA
    The direct confrontation between superpowers is discarded since 1962, for that the wars are in third countries

    Ukraine is like South Vietman

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:45 pm

    Besides it would balance out a monopoly that Sukhoi currently enjoys that is not healthy... Su-57, Su-35, Su-30, plus medium strike Su-34, and light CAS Su-25... do they need more work?

    Euh that was the choice of the government and MoD in the 2000s. There is no room for sukhoi, yak, mig, il... the procurement are too low to have so many plane design bureau each with their own engine companies and project. It's not soviet times anymore. They didn't even buy more than 1000 new jets including trainers since the 1990s in total.

    And let's not talk about their civilian orders that are very low and in some cases inexistant for the last 35 years.

    The Su-17M4 and MiG-27M and MiG-27K and the Mig-23 and MiG-21 were available in enormous numbers, and while their swing role capacity was not amazing for the latter fighters, the former Su-17 and MiG-27s were very capable aircraft in their area of attack...

    Only the su-17 would have a job today and a very good one. With gliding bombs, laser bombs or just carpet bombs it would still be a very good jet. It would have needed some new fancy screens and EO for a bargin cost but would be very useful. It can also carry tactical missiles and help in anti ship missions or SEAD. Too bad they didn't keep 300 of them or keep building it with improvments.

    Talk about the Su-75 being the solution, well the MiG-35 is the non stealthy equivalent and could be put into production now... by the time the Su-75 gets into serial production for the export market the MiGs problems could be all sorted out and it could be a very good solid reliable aircraft that is cheap to operate but capable for what it does.

    Well, again, mig-35 is a twin engine and its cost isn't that lower than su-30.

    I saw unit cost for export and indians used to pay some 40 million per UPg. Egypt got 48 Mig-29M for 2 billion which is also 40 million per jet. Venezuela and Vietnam both paid around 35-40 million their su-30MK2 which are way better than mig-29SMT or Mig-29M. Cost for Russia would be small but equivalent so their mig would cost as much as su-30s.

    Mig-35 isn't a solution. And the way they removed mig-29 from service indicates they don't really see any future for the mig-29 family.

    Mistake of Mig was to keep developing that design. Second mistake is that new models they presented are dead in the egg. One is a mig1.44 that has same size as su-57 so no chance to be bought and the second is a trainer/fighter in the class of yak-130 so again no chances.

    After all those years they didn't understood they needed to develop a fucking light single engine fighter with stealth caracteristics. Second possible project could have been a VTOL but it seems Yak is already developing it.

    Future of combat aircraft in Russia belongs to Sukhoi and Yak. Mig is dead unless mig-41 is a success.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:48 pm

    OK, just try to convince Shoigu

    Rumors are that they are already conviced after seeing the usage of su-35 used to drop single bombs in Syria using massive amount of money when a light aircraft or even a drone could have done the job.

    Why do you think sukhoi was so fast designing the su-75 ? They saw the opportunity contrary to Mig which present su-57 and yak 130 class project that are not needed since su-57 and yak 130 are being bought...
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:24 pm

    When Su75 are introduced, what would be the organizational process?

    Would they create new regiments?

    Because if so it would make sense to get a light fighter into service now to fill out those regiments and have them train and fly in a light fighter with similar characteristics to Su75, so that by 2040 they are ready to introduce the plane into the new regiments

    Isos wrote:
    But when you compare to the 500+ J-11 China is fielding, it becomes pathetic. Not to mention that they still lack a good stock of air to air missiles for those su-30/35. R-77M isn't ready and r-37 is big and they hardly have more than few tens of them that they will need for the mig-31 also. Meanwhile China and nato are having huge stocks of pl-15/21 and aim-120D/Meteor. R-77-1 is already outmatched.

    Isos, the J16 can be shot down as easily as Ukrainian su27, by s400 or s350 from world record 250km range

    Even at low altitude

    Such a plane has no business flying over s400 /s350 coverage

    Only stealth fighters have yet to be tested against these air defense systems

    By the time S500 comes online, the R77m will be redundant on Russian borders , this will probably touch stealth fighters at 300km ranges

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    Post  Hole Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:25 pm

    With missiles and drones, half of tactical aviation is redundant.
    Drones are the new "light" part in the aircraft mix of the VKS. You can buy many Orion or Sirius drones for one MiG-35. Or specialised high-speed drones
    acting as interceptors.

    There will be an unmanned (drone) version of the Su-75. Possible that the VKS buys some of those.

    HATO has a lot more planes that will be more difficult to dominate 
    SAM´s can deal with them.
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:20 pm

    Isos, the J16 can be shot down as easily as Ukrainian su27, by s400 or s350 from world record 250km range

    Even at low altitude

    Such a plane has no business flying over s400 /s350 coverage

    Only stealth fighters have yet to be tested against these air defense systems

    By the time S500 comes online, the R77m will be redundant on Russian borders , this will probably touch stealth fighters at 300km ranges

    Not really j-11 have pl-15 and pl-21 and Chiba also has S-300/400 and their own AD systems that can shoot down russian fighters.

    S-500 and s-400 can be destroyed. They are not invincible. Those on the front will be targeted by artillery and MLRS. Already happened in Ukraine and both Russia and Ukraine lost S-300 this way.

    Strong air force are needed to project power. You can hardly attack an enemy with S-400. Most of ukrainian su-27 are destroyed by R-77-1 and r-37M which are better missiles than ukrainian r-27.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:53 pm

    The procurement were low earlier because Russia in the 90s was a failed state and then since the 2000s there were always a lot of things to concentrate in, not enough moneyfor everything and much less trained personnel to fill all the production lines (very sad thing, considering that a decade beforea lot of highly competent but unemployed engineers and technicians died thanks to the economic reformes). Anyway since ukraine will end up under Russian control (one way or the pther) new regiments will need to be (re)created (including a long range aviation base in poltava), and thus more airplanes will be needed.

    I still think that there will be also place for mig 35 regiments, it is not inferior to eurofighter or upgraded f16 amd f18 that many European countries have.

    As far as Syria, maybe Russia can give them some other su27, but they can also be kept in Reserve in case of wars. They are not 4.5 generation planes, but they can be upgraded in case of emergency and Russia does not need to do like US that destroy the planes and production lines when retiring them from service.

    By the way, do the Su-27SM3 have air to ground capabilities?

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:58 pm

    Eurofighter, f-16, f-18 are being replaced by 5th gen fighters. Mig-35 came way to late. It should have been ready in 2010.

    And frankly we still want to see the difference with mig-29M. For me it's the same plane overall.

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:04 pm

    @Arkanghelsk

    When Su75 are introduced, what would be the organizational process?

    Would they create new regiments?

    Because if so it would make sense to get a light fighter into service now to fill out those regiments and have them train and fly in a light fighter with similar characteristics to Su75, so that by 2040 they are ready to introduce the plane into the new regiments

    only one new regiment are needed

    Su-75 for:
    689 IAP in Kaliningrad
    38 IAP in Crimea
    100 KIAP in North Fleet for one aircraft carrier
    Only need to open one regiment in Pacific Fleet for other aircraft carrier (in the USSR was the 311th independent Shipborne Assault Aviation Regiment with Yak-38)
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:28 pm

    Isos wrote:Eurofighter, f-16, f-18 are being replaced by 5th gen fighters. Mig-35 came way to late. It should have been ready in 2010.
    Sorry but i call bullshit. There is no 5th generation aircraft (except the f35, which is not a good aircraft to be polite) in production in the west.
    About future aircrafts, the English Italian tempest will enter service after 2035 and the french german future combat aircraft after 2040.
    The rafale is a 4th or 4++ generation aircraft and it is only a better eurofighter, nothing more.
    If that can stay in service another 20 years, I do not see why a further modernised mig 35 cannot do the same.

    The US is currently producing upgraded f15 as well...


    Isos wrote:
    And frankly we still want to see the difference with mig-29M. For me it's the same plane overall.
    same airframe, different radar, avionics, navigation and other internal systems.

    Probably similar difference than the one between the latest and previous f16 upgrade.

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