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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46

    Kiko
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46 - Page 20 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46

    Post  Kiko Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:41 pm

    Russian Military Emerging Bigger, Stronger From Ukraine Conflict, by Ilya Tsukanov for Sputnikglobe.com. 07.26.2023.

    Pentagon chief Lloyd Austin’s hope of seeing the Russian military emerging from the proxy war with NATO in Ukraine “weakened” has failed to materialize, with Russia ramping up munitions production and fielding new, complex weapons systems. What’s Russia’s secret? Sputnik spoke to veteran military observer and author Andrei Martyanov to find out.

    Russian Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov announced this week that defense enterprises have already surpassed production figures for all of 2022 in the first half of this year, and that when it comes to munitions, output is on course to exceeding “the overall production volume” of 2022 on a monthly basis.

    Also this week, KB Mashinostroyeniya, a Moscow region-based state defense, scientific and design enterprise which makes Iskander missile systems, air-launched anti-tank weapons and other munitions, reported that it has ramped up the production of some munitions by up to 250 percent compared to 2022, and that the company is fulfilling the state defense order in full.

    NATO Can't Outgun Russia

    President Putin promised back in March that the US and its allies won’t be able to outproduce Russia in Ukraine, pointing out that for every artillery shell or tank NATO builds and sends to Kiev, Russia will be able to produce three or more.

    And Russia’s output hasn’t been limited to legacy Cold War-era equipment, either, with defense enterprises demonstrating over the 18 months that it is capable of developing (and in many cases fielding en masse) a range of fundamentally new equipment, from a new generation of kamikaze UAVs to advanced anti-drone defenses, and smart systems featuring AI capabilities for drones and missiles.

    Moscow’s ability to withstand crushing Western sanctions and ramp up the production of a broad assortment of weapons flies in the face of bold predictions by senior US officials and media last year claiming that Russia would soon run out of chips for its missiles, that NATO’s advanced tanks would be able to cut through Russian defenses like a hot knife through butter, and that the country simply couldn’t match the wealthy and technologically advanced Western countries’ superior military technologies.

    Russia’s campaign of precision missile strikes on Ukrainian infrastructure, and the stalling of Kiev’s counteroffensive, have proven otherwise, with even the most vehemently anti-Russian Western legacy media now admitting that the counteroffensive has bogged down, prompting some US officials to rush to blame Ukrainian commanders’ tactics, and to insist that their equipment is not the problem.

    Having blown over $95 billion on arms to Ukraine, Western countries have increasingly started talking about their inability to keep providing Kiev with weapons and ammo at the same pace as they have up to now. Some European countries have calculated that their armies would be able to fight a full-scale war for as little as 24-48 hours after their sending weapons and ammo inventories to Kiev. Earlier this month, President Biden admitted to media that the United States was deploying cluster bombs to Ukraine because it was running low on conventional 155 mm artillery ammunition. The admission sparked harsh criticism from former President Donald Trump, who blasted Biden for essentially revealing that the emperor has no clothes.

    American 'Mythology' Meets Russian Reality

    “Let me put it this way: We have witnessed, in the last 15 months, a ‘21+ mature audiences only explicit’ demolition of the American military mythology and American technological mythology,” Andrei Martyanov, a veteran Russian military analyst and best-selling author, told Sputnik’s New Rules podcast.

    “Those people from the think tanks [predicting the weakening of the Russian MIC], most of them never served a day in the armed forces. And to quote General Robert Latiff, author of the book Future War, ‘everything that the American public and politicians know about warfare is primarily from the entertainment industry.’ I’m beginning to think that many American generals also know and learn about warfare from the entertainment industry, from Hollywood. Those people are absolutely unprepared and not equipped to operate with basically what amounts to operational values, and they don’t even understand what they’re looking at,” Martyanov stressed.

    Characterizing the field of Russia studies in Western countries as “basically a wasteland” today, Martyanov suggested that they don’t have the ability to comprehend realities on the ground because they take their primary data from Kiev, which falsifies it, and from “pseudo-academic shysters” in US academia whose “only task is to rewrite and then reiterate what Russia is and what is history, especially of the 20th century, is, and sell it to the public and policymakers.”

    America's War Record: The ‘White Elephant’ in the Room

    Commenting on the steady stream of triumphalist reporting in Western media over the past year that the Russian military industrial complex allegedly has been weakened in Ukraine, Martyanov said this amounted mostly to “sour grapes…professional anger and jealousy” on the part of the US defence establishment.

    “We cannot ignore this white elephant or 800 pound gorilla in the room,” which is that “American generals lost every single war they fought. And if anybody needs a reminder of that, how about they look at how the United States was leaving Afghanistan? But the point is not just Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam, of course, with the exception of the ‘glorious’ victory over Grenada."

    "The point is, just to give you a technological example…that the United States in terms of air defenses…is not even in the same league with Russia. In terms of cruise missiles, again, the United States lags here not by years, it lags by generations. And the same goes for armor, the same goes for operational concepts and things of this nature, and even in electronic warfare,” the observer stressed.

    “For the average American political scientist who grew up with their Wall Street type economy, that’s the one I think they studied, they operate with gross domestic product numbers which are provided by Wall Street and shysters from the economic schools. They still cannot even grasp the idea” that the US could be weaker than its adversaries, Martyanov said.

    “For example, Russia produces as much steel as the United States. And it produces six times more aluminum…And when you look at these fundamental economic and military indices, how can you explain it? [Meanwhile] they still believe that they are the number one economy in the world, while China actually dwarfs the United States.”

    What are Russia's 'Network-Centric' Warfare Capabilities

    Western observers covering the Ukrainian crisis have spilled a lot of virtual ink discussing network-centric warfare, the resource-intensive military doctrine aimed at translating armies’ informational advantage, gained through things like the effective use of communications, computer networking, advanced sensors and other tech, into a real-world battlefield advantage that results in faster speed of command, deployment and fire, increased survivability, improved awareness and greater lethality.

    Naturally, most have touted Ukraine’s NATO-provided network-centric capabilities, while characterizing Russia’s "bordering on non-existent."

    The reality says otherwise, Martyanov said, pointing, for starters, to Russia’s extensive use of a broad range of ballistic, cruise and hypersonic weaponry to target Ukrainian forces and infrastructure at standoff ranges, and Russian air defenses’ ability to ground the country’s air force to ensure near total air superiority.

    “The Russian air defense systems have been in the net-centric paradigm a long time now – since Soviet times, actually,” the military expert said, pointing, for example, to the ultra-long range R-37 missile, which has confirmed kills at ranges beyond 200 km. The same is the case with ground-based anti-air defenses, which have seen “just [an] absolute dramatic improvement” in performance on the immediate battlefield, Martyanov noted, citing “the Pantsir-S1…the Tor-M2 and the Buk-M3 and things of this nature.”

    “Technologically, the United States cannot even produce anything comparable to that,” the observer emphasized.

    “Net-centric warfare and everything associated with it is designed to resolve uncertainties in targeting and detection of targets. Generally speaking, to put it into simple words, it is when each shooter communicates with each shooter in the appropriate theater or in the appropriate environment,” Martyanov said.

    This is an area where Russia has had experience for decades, he noted, pointing, for example, to the networking capabilities of the MiG-31 interceptor, which can provide guidance for missiles launched by other aircraft flying in groups of up to six aircraft.

    “What it gives you is that your awareness of the environment grows dramatically. And this is done based on several fundamental principles, including what is called ‘data and sensor fusion’. When you can obtain and process information, for example, from infrared search and track to radar, to even some kind of other purely visual sources. And then you put together this information, you ‘fuse’ it and you have this much clearer picture.” That, in turn, “allows you to also efficiently redistribute or reassign targets.”

    How Long Has Russia Had Drone and AI Capabilities?

    In the field of drone warfare, where Russia seemed to lag behind NATO capabilities at the start of the Ukrainian proxy conflict, Martyanov noted that Russia’s perceived shortcomings concealed behind-the-scenes developments which have more than proven their capabilities this year.

    “The point is, even already at the end of the 2000s and the start of the 2010s, Russia was actively in the development of drone technology. So it’s not like it came out and suddenly ‘oh my gosh, you see we have the drones and the Russians just sort of leapfrogged in to some kind of new paradigm.’ It was always there. Don’t forget, some of the first drones ever were the [Soviet Tupolev Tu-143] Reys drones. Obviously, they were nothing like the modern ones, but the Soviet army was using them extensively already in the 1970s. So it’s not like it’s something new. What is new, of course, and especially with the Lancet-3…is the fact that they use swarms now.”

    The same applies when it comes to so-called artificial intelligence (AI) technology, Martyanov said, recalling that the Onyx P-800 supersonic anti-ship missile’s predecessor, the P-700 Granit, had mathematically sophisticated proto-AI computing capabilities going back to 1983, including automatic target selection, evasion and coordination capabilities.

    “So these were the first missiles with what you would define as artificial intellect. And when the submarine was launching them, they could launch up to 24 in a single salvo, and they would communicate with each other, all 24 of them, will do their target distribution or receive targeting from each missiles, assigned the role of a remote radar control,” he said.
    “And when you look at this, this was a terrifying weapon. And the Russians have had it for 40 years now; and then obviously the more modern Onyx P-800, which is used very actively in and around Ukraine. It was used also to huge effect in Syria,” Martyanov noted.

    “But yes, it’s nothing new. And now we have Lancet-3s, which is the complete swarm technology. They can communicate, they can redirect targets. They can decide on their own what to attack. So yes, radio-electronics advanced quite significantly since the 1970s and 1980s,” the military analyst summed up.

    https://sputnikglobe.com/20230726/russian-military-emerging-bigger-stronger-from-ukraine-conflict-1112158208.html

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    JohninMK
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46 - Page 20 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46

    Post  JohninMK Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:57 pm

    GEROMAN -- time will tell - 👀 --
    @GeromanAT
    The result of today's enemy counteroffensive in the Zaporozhye direction:

    The enemy began to move at 0400h with a force of 25 pieces of equipment (including foreign ones).

    The first wave was stopped at 1012h , the enemy retreated leaving the wounded behind. Military personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were taken prisoner.

    The second wave was stopped at 1400h , there were many mercenaries and foreign talk intercepted on radio communications

    The guys who met the enemy on the ground, namely the 810th Marine Brigade and the 71st Regiment, the 177th Marine Regiment, you are real heroes and lions!

    According to our fighters:

    Leopard - 2
    Tank t64 - 6
    Tank t72 - 4
    Bradley - 3
    M 113 - 4
    BMP - 6

    Archangel of the Special Forces
    7:08 PM · Jul 26, 2023
    ·
    8,195
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    Meanwhile way to the south

    The attack on Serpent Island is confirmed.

    Russian aviation released several FAB-500 high-explosive aerial bombs with universal planning and correction modules for objects on Serpent Island.

    Considering its size and the power of the FABs, it is highly unlikely that anything on Serpent Island remains intact.
    7:48 PM · Jul 26, 2023
    ·
    2,925
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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:03 pm

    Mir wrote:

    On the other hand Russia has an array of very capable and battle hardened missiles - including some stealthy ones, but why bother too much with stealth when you have HYPERSONIC cheers russia  

    The stealth aspect of JASSM-ER is token

    It wasn't the point I was trying to make

    The point I was trying to make was about the range of the missile

    They have ranges of 1000km+

    Which means that a tactical fighter becomes capable of strikes in the depth without being exposed to air defense

    In other words, a tactical fighter becomes a strategic bomber, and while the JASSM-ER is not cheap

    A Russian solution would be cheap enough, to have both range and volume of strikes to not have to waste kh101 or have to base bombers in one place

    Now I am not sure if KH59MK2 has ranges of 500km+

    But if they were they would be used more often than we see kh101 being used

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:26 pm

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:14 pm

    Battle For Robotyne


    It seems that the Ukrainian Armed Forces have had a bad day so far.

    Yesterday they made another reconnaissance attack on Robotyne, south of Orkiv. It cost them 2 tanks. This morning they launched a much bigger attack in which at least three motorized battalions with tanks took part. They managed to get to the north-east end east of Robotyne but did not enter the town.

    According to the Russian Ministry of Defense the attack cost the Ukrainian army 22 tanks, 10 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles and one armored combat vehicle. Several of these losses have been confirmed by drone videos from the region.
    Over 100 Ukrainians were killed or wounded during that attack alone. The Ukrainian forces are retreating.
    Yesterday the Ukrainian forces lost a total 20 artillery pieces. It is only the second time during the 50+ days of the Ukrainian counter-offensive that this level was reached. The losses included 5 2S1 Gvozdika self propelled howitzer, 3 Polish made Krab self propelled howitzer, 3 M-777 howitzer and several other types of bigger guns.

    Moon of Alabama

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    Post  LMFS Thu Jul 27, 2023 2:21 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    So how are the Russians doing this?  I've seen no evidence of any new tactics or huge reserves introduced - they seem to be simply applying their now-well honed tactical methods on a large scale to seize lots of ground.

    It's very noteworthy just how low-key and competently-done this attack has been thus far.  There have been no movie trailers and no minefield traffic jams - just a methodical, silent push through the Ukrainian defensive line with, as near as I can tell, few Russian losses.

    What is happening now is that 1.5 years of grinding have done their job and 404 is close to depleted. This is what General Staff had been working on all this time, while retards on the internet were demanding territorial gains to show off...

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    Broski
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    Post  Broski Thu Jul 27, 2023 2:46 am

    Isos wrote:Cruise missiles even the hypersonic missiles hit stationary targets.

    If you know the enemy sent aircraft carrying them in mass like today then you message all your force and tell them to move away from their bases and keep moving.
    Which would reveal the positions of command centers, ammo/weapons depots and any concentration of Ukronazi forces to Russian satellites and other intelligence gathering systems. Either way, a win/win for Russia.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jul 27, 2023 3:56 am

    Have there been any updates on Izdeliye-715 or so called X50?

    It was similar to Kh59mk2 but with greater range

    This project is ideal for su34 and su30/35 to launch from outside SAM range and strike 600km-1000km in theater like Ukraine

    You don't need to use missiles with 5000km range like kh101 or kalibr for these missions, even a drone like s70 Okhotnik could carry them

    Su34 probably could carry 3 of them, one under each wing and one in the center

    A flight of 4 could launch 12, and 8 could launch 24 missiles

    Tu95 doesn't need to conduct these missions, and can be kept for strategic missions

    And ships won't need to use kalibr or reserve them for other missions

    I like the idea of a 1000km+ cruise missile which flies subsonic that can be carried by tactical fighter bomber aircraft like su34/30/35


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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Jul 27, 2023 4:02 am

    JohninMK wrote:Fennec_Radar
    @RadarFennec
    ·
    3h
    What is honestly interesting about this recent offensive. Not just in how much territory was taken and how quickly compared to all the fighting the past months.

    But rather, how quietly it is being handled. Not even the Russian MoD is blowing the victory trumpet over this.

    <snip>

    When using the quote function please edit or shorten very long posts when replying to them or don't even quote them at all, just use @membername to indicate who you are talking to as it saves wasting enormous amounts of space. This warning is not going to be repeated very often and if this sort of behaviour continues then that quote button is going to disappear again... am I understood?  GarryB


    Ukraine probably has no more reserves that are a factor here. It is quite possible that this is the beginning of the end. How are they going to stop this if the breakthrough accelerates? Reminiscent of 1943 and the Battle of Kurs where the attack came a few weeks later further north and the Wehrmacht had to break off its offensive.

    Who knows, there may be days when you will panic when retreating due to the lack of vehicles and protection from attack drones.

    Belisarius wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46 - Page 20 Img_2311
    The number of published episodes of the use of loitering ammunition "Lancet" in July 2023 exceeded 100!
    https://t.me/lost_armour/1294
    If this continues, any Ukrainian front will not slip but swim away. If it rises to 150 missions, the nearby hinterland will also be increasingly attacked. This means that no collection, no supply, no regeneration is possible. In the absence of a TOR and Panzir fighting is impossible.

    game over

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jul 27, 2023 4:02 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46 - Page 20 89564310

    So called Izd 720

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46 - Page 20 Raduga10

    I think these missiles will show up soon, as Russia always counters the west

    Now that storm shadow has been used amply, it's time to unleash Izd 720

    Ukraine will never know when a cruise missile attack is inbound as tactical carriers can carry them

    Nearly impossible to have warning without moving equipment everytime any aircraft takes off from a VKS base

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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 27, 2023 4:50 am

    If 35,000 reserves are all that is left, then it is game over. I am assuming these are at least half trained. They could herd together
    old men and women without training, but that would be self-defeating.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 27, 2023 4:51 am

    Cirkon and Kinzhal are in stealth. At these speeds, plasma forms around the missile, which blocks certain ranges of the EM wave. Only they can shine brighter in IR. Only here speed prevails over stealth

    Stealth is meaningless to hypersonic missiles... even if they send you a message the day before that they are going to launch one and they launch it when they say they will and you detect it at max range... what do you think they can do about it?

    That is the problem.

    The point I was trying to make was about the range of the missile

    They have ranges of 1000km+

    Comparing the air defence systems and capacity of the west and Russia... which side do you think is in greater need of long range air launched missiles?

    A Russian solution would be cheap enough, to have both range and volume of strikes to not have to waste kh101 or have to base bombers in one place

    Now I am not sure if KH59MK2 has ranges of 500km+

    They were talking about the Kh-50 being a 1,500km range small cruise missile that is small and affordable and accurate, though they have released information showing a Kh-50 that is very small and unlikely to be the same thing.

    I like the idea of a 1000km+ cruise missile which flies subsonic that can be carried by tactical fighter bomber aircraft like su34/30/35

    It comes down to the warhead that is delivered.... range is not important if the warhead is too light to do the level of damage that is useful and makes the attack worth it.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jul 27, 2023 6:27 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Comparing the air defence systems and capacity of the west and Russia... which side do you think is in greater need of long range air launched missiles?

    Yes, the west is definitely going to face an uphill battle with such gaps in air defense, but SEAD missions in Ukraine would have been less costly in the beginning had they just had a missile like KH50 in large numbers, or at least ramping up production - look how UMPC bombs increased the survivability of the carriers


    They were talking about the Kh-50 being a 1,500km range small cruise missile that is small and affordable and accurate, though they have released information showing a Kh-50 that is very small and unlikely to be the same thing.

    We have to wait and see if they even decide to release such a missile, maybe in the end they decide to stick with kh101, but I see a use for kh50


    It comes down to the warhead that is delivered.... range is not important if the warhead is too light to do the level of damage that is useful and makes the attack worth it.

    The theoretical KH-50 would have 1000lb warhead

    Which is enough for strikes on different targets , save kh 101 and kalibr cruise missiles for really fortified targets

    Then again if they have so many kh101 stockpiled, then it makes sense to use them - but KH50 would allow bombers to focus on the more traditional nuclear patrol role
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 27, 2023 10:58 am

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Fennec_Radar
    @RadarFennec
    ·
    3h
    What is honestly interesting about this recent offensive. Not just in how much territory was taken and how quickly compared to all the fighting the past months.

    When using the quote function please edit or shorten very long posts when replying to them or don't even quote them at all, just use @membername to indicate who you are talking to as it saves wasting enormous amounts of space. This warning is not going to be repeated very often and if this sort of behaviour continues then that quote button is going to disappear again... am I understood?  GarryB

    Whilst my post you refer to is long, I'm not sure why you quoted a Garry instruction at me that is not relevant as I was not quoting a post already posted in this thread. I take great care myself to strip non relevant parts of a post when quoting it here.

    It took me quite a while to assemble that post from the Twitter thread into a form that would be much easier to understand here and more likely to be read than a string of links to his posts, some of which would have needed three clicks. As far as wasting space it didn't as all the maps were links.

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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 27, 2023 11:30 am

    Su34 probably could carry 3 of them
    Theoretically the Su-34 could carry 3 Kh-101.  Very Happy
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 27, 2023 11:33 am

    flamming_python wrote:

    But that's the character of propaganda in every country. Yet in some places people can see right through it and in some others they can't. It's about what you are ready to allow yourself to believe, as much as it is about what you are told.

    Propaganda does not excuse the people of a country themselves from having at least, a few independent brain cells to share between themselves

    I was not restricting propaganda to Russia and Russians. It is universal and works for any country and nation. Sometimes it is only a matter of a different narrative.
    There is a vlog of some Russian living in Poland. I won't name it not to push this type of content, but the guy represents a perfect example of liberda. In his mid 30s, left Russia after 240222, and is working hard to please Polish masters.
    In his last entry, he was comparing Kaliningrad with Gdansk, and how miserable the Russian city looks.
    First of all, he was constantly using the Polish Królewiec name, which sounded idiotic as he couldn't vocal the name properly.
    What is hilarious is the fact, that Gdansk is a much bigger city itself, but not only that.
    It is a part of the entire metropolitan area called "Threecity".
    A whole area is much over 1 mln people, which is almost 2.5 the size of Kaliningrad.
    While Gdansk has been rebuilt with its historical shape, Festung Koenigsberg remains fell a victim of the Soviet realies.
    First and most important, it was physically destroyed in 90%, and rebuilding it with German/Teutonic heritage was of questionable value. Gdansk on the other hand, is sometimes cited to be destroyed in "95%", but every single new and serious study questions that. It was the historic old town part that suffered most of the damage, still it was not 95%. From some perspectives, a lot of heritage buildings retained its historical value by keeping the fasades etc. And some parts of the city has not been destroyed at all - the city itself supplied gas and electricity to its population till March 1945, and ceased only when the Soviets finally stormed it.
    Second, a whole area was militarized and de facto closed, so most of the reconstruction carried had practical meaning.
    Gdansk was the biggest Polish seaport, a window for the whole world, and developed accordingly. In communist times, seaport cities looked much better than the rest, and that applies to all of them. Seamens brought goods and hard currency that was revitalizing the space.
    When I visited it almost 30 years ago, it was a miserable place. Sad, dirty and lacking any hope.
    Now, it is a vibrant city that develops same direction as the entire Russia.
    Still I am pretty sure that there are tons of Russkie who feel a deep sorrow to live in such an awful place ...



    And by the way, it was the Brits who bombed the Teutonic knight castle in the city center making it a pile of rubbles.

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 27, 2023 11:49 am

    A sad reminder of where all this came from.

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    Post  franco Thu Jul 27, 2023 12:10 pm

    GROZNY, July 27-RIA Novosti. More than seven thousand fighters from Chechnya are in the area of the special operation, the head of the region Ramzan Kadyrov wrote in a social network.
    "Since the beginning of the special operation, more than 28,000 fighters, including more than 13,000 volunteers, have been sent from the Chechen Republic to the war zone. More than 7,000 fighters are currently on the front lines, " Kadyrov wrote on the VKontakte social network.
    The head of the region noted that Chechen units are involved along the entire front line.
    "The most difficult areas are considered to be the Bakhmut and Orekhov directions, where the enemy regularly makes attempts to break through the defense line. This was announced at a meeting with members of the regional operational headquarters for the conduct of the SVO and representatives of law enforcement agencies by the head of the headquarters Magomed Daudov, " he added.

    https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/ru-en.en.902ff22f-64c24190-620d6a6b-74722d776562/https/ria.ru/20230727/akhmat-1886535893.html

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 27, 2023 12:46 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46 - Page 20 F1_H-iaWEAQAThW?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 27, 2023 2:38 pm

    Yes, the west is definitely going to face an uphill battle with such gaps in air defense, but SEAD missions in Ukraine would have been less costly in the beginning had they just had a missile like KH50 in large numbers, or at least ramping up production - look how UMPC bombs increased the survivability of the carriers

    They don't seem to have ever had any shortage of missiles and their costs in this war have been trivial in dollar terms.

    If anything they seem to have an enormous range of choices in terms of different weapon options to use against a variety of targets in this conflict.


    We have to wait and see if they even decide to release such a missile, maybe in the end they decide to stick with kh101, but I see a use for kh50

    I rather suspect what they found was that their capacity to find lots of discrete targets and their precise location was their main problem rather than their availability of weapon types to hit said targets within a useful time table.

    Just late last year the Ukrainians were able to push forward in several areas simply by using overwhelming numbers, but this time around the Russian forces appear to be fully able to deal with large numbers of targets at one time in terms of drones and mines and artillery being available, as well as air power.

    Most of the time it seems the Russians don't lack missiles, what they lack is available targets, or acceptable targets, but fortunately the Orcs are stupid enough to escalate things so targets that were off the target list get added... like HQs with HATO experts present used to not be targeted...

    The theoretical KH-50 would have 1000lb warhead

    Who uses pounds?

    Which is enough for strikes on different targets , save kh 101 and kalibr cruise missiles for really fortified targets

    I have never seen any estimate for payload for the Kh-50, but to get that sort of range it is not going to be heavy because the missile is supposed to be relatively light and cheap.

    Then again if they have so many kh101 stockpiled, then it makes sense to use them - but KH50 would allow bombers to focus on the more traditional nuclear patrol role

    Well keep in mind they will have Kh-55SM and Kh-555 missiles they might as well use up too.

    Not to mention enormous numbers of anti ship missiles that would be effective against a range of large land targets like buildings or bridges and would have large warheads designed to sink ships.

    Whilst my post you refer to is long, I'm not sure why you quoted a Garry instruction at me that is not relevant as I was not quoting a post already posted in this thread. I take great care myself to strip non relevant parts of a post when quoting it here.

    He did not quote me, he quoted your entire post, which I edited down to take up rather less space.

    If only others would take as much care in quoting as you do John there wouldn't be a problem.

    The problem is that some just click the quote button and just reply... reposting very large posts repeating them sometimes even on the same page, which is a total waste of bandwidth.

    It took me quite a while to assemble that post from the Twitter thread into a form that would be much easier to understand here and more likely to be read than a string of links to his posts, some of which would have needed three clicks. As far as wasting space it didn't as all the maps were links.

    Thank you for taking the time to edit and format your posts for the benefit of other users.

    Unfortunately our MiG based friend just repeated your entire post which was rather long for no good reason other than to reply to what you were saying, which as I point out in my response could have just had an @ and your username so we knew what he was referring to.

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jul 27, 2023 3:25 pm

    ALAMO wrote:I was not restricting propaganda to Russia and Russians. It is universal and works for any country and nation. Sometimes it is only a matter of a different narrative.
    There is a vlog of some Russian living in Poland. I won't name it not to push this type of content, but the guy represents a perfect example of liberda. In his mid 30s, left Russia after 240222, and is working hard to please Polish masters.
    In his last entry, he was comparing Kaliningrad with Gdansk, and how miserable the Russian city looks.
    First of all, he was constantly using the Polish Królewiec name, which sounded idiotic as he couldn't vocal the name properly.
    What is hilarious is the fact, that Gdansk is a much bigger city itself, but not only that.
    It is a part of the entire metropolitan area called "Threecity".
    A whole area is much over 1 mln people, which is almost 2.5 the size of Kaliningrad.
    While Gdansk has been rebuilt with its historical shape, Festung Koenigsberg remains fell a victim of the Soviet realies.
    First and most important, it was physically destroyed in 90%, and rebuilding it with German/Teutonic heritage was of questionable value. Gdansk on the other hand, is sometimes cited to be destroyed in "95%", but every single new and serious study questions that. It was the historic old town part that suffered most of the damage, still it was not 95%. From some perspectives, a lot of heritage buildings retained its historical value by keeping the fasades etc. And some parts of the city has not been destroyed at all - the city itself supplied gas and electricity to its population till March 1945, and ceased only when the Soviets finally stormed it.
    Second, a whole area was militarized and de facto closed, so most of the reconstruction carried had practical meaning.
    Gdansk was the biggest Polish seaport, a window for the whole world, and developed accordingly. In communist times, seaport cities looked much better than the rest, and that applies to all of them. Seamens brought goods and hard currency that was revitalizing the space.
    When I visited it almost 30 years ago, it was a miserable place. Sad, dirty and lacking any hope.
    Now, it is a vibrant city that develops same direction as the entire Russia.
    Still I am pretty sure that there are tons of Russkie who feel a deep sorrow to live in such an awful place ...



    And by the way, it was the Brits who bombed the Teutonic knight castle in the city center making it a pile of rubbles.

    lol I seen this guy.

    Didn't realise he went to Poland. Thought he went back to the States where judging by his accent he spent half his life in. Fun fact - he was back in Russia a month ago visiting his dacha as if he hadn't publicly disavowed the country and left 'for good' when the war broke out Razz

    Which is true for a lot of these types actually. They have no principles ultimately, and when their expectations of Western victory don't manifest, they'll attempt to slither back into Russia as if nothing happened.
    Came across the dating profile of a girl in her 20s. Where she writes that she's living in Prague and awaiting the return of Russia to its 1991 borders. I messaged her and told her it's more likely it will return to its 1945 borders Twisted Evil

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 27, 2023 3:45 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    lol I seen this guy.
    Didn't realise he went to Poland. Thought he went back to the States where judging by his accent he spent half his life in. Fun fact - he was back in Russia a month ago visiting his dacha as if he hadn't publicly disavowed the country and left 'for good' when the war broke out Razz
    Which is true for a lot of these types actually. They have no principles ultimately, and when their expectations of Western victory don't manifest, they'll attempt to slither back into Russia as if nothing happened.
    Came across the dating profile of a girl in her 20s. Where she writes that she's living in Prague and awaiting the return of Russia to its 1991 borders. I messaged her and told her it's more likely it will return to its 1945 borders Twisted Evil

    My point was that a guy is just a small part of antiRussian propaganda. As he was filming in Polish, I can bet he has his Russian language materials with the same shit, too.
    People with no perspective and wider horizons can easily fell a victim to this type of narrative.
    Kaliningrad is a perfectly fine city, with lots of development that is clear and visible. Remembering it in the 90s and now, is like jumping into a different place.
    But it is a mentality.
    In Russia, you still retained the one that everything in the west is better.
    Must be, because it is from the west.
    And everything from the west is better.
    And a loop, again.
    We shared that mentality for decades, and it is changing only now, when we really felt that west.
    Dirty streets, violence, cultural-driven riots, rape culture...
    Suddenly, people started to recognize that not every flower smelled like a rose.
    People run out of complexes.
    Now, it is mostly a 60+ gen that is using west as a benchmark.
    I suppose it will change in Russia in about a decade, considering the general social-economic development.

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 27, 2023 5:03 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Now, it is mostly a 60+ gen that is using west as a benchmark.
    I suppose it will change in Russia in about a decade, considering the general social-economic development.

    The advent of SM with often brutal reporting of what reality in the West actually is, as opposed to the Hollywood/TV view, must have a big impact. The same to an extent in reverse.

    I suspect that as the power of the US wanes the situation will evolve.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 27, 2023 5:23 pm

    The main cause is economic and social driven.
    People started to realize, that a 5k euro monthly salary means nothing if you are to spend 2.5k a month for rent, a 1k for commodities, and a box of cigarettes is 10 euro a piece. Looks good at the first glance, but impresses less and less when one starts to dig into details.
    It was f_p I believe who cited the cost of living in Peter. A fukin' bargain if we talk a 5mln people metropolis, one of the most prestigious places to live on the planet. My folks in Berlin pay twice the rate at least. And get smelly blue birdies lying on the streets for free. All-inclusive!

    Edit : holly cow, seems that the mighty Ukro offensive finally reached the first line of Russian defence ...

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #46 - Page 20 Zrzut103

    Sort off, but at least dragon teeths are there, lined ... With all force!

    But you shall see the outcome, as it is not easy to describe ...

    https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/74870

    Laughing

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    Post  Godric Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:08 pm

    Swedish government is now saying Russia is to blame for the Quran burning in Sweden, you couldn't make those anti Russian clowns up if you tried ... the so called neutral country during WW2 and Cold War ... when i say so called i mean so called ie allowing transiting of Nazi forces through Sweden to help  the occupation of Northern Norway and assisting NATzO/America during colod war like incidents of escorting US spy plane to NATzO aerospace to avoid being force to land by Soviet or Warsaw pact airforce



    Last edited by Godric on Thu Jul 27, 2023 9:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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