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GarryB wrote: javelin doesn't have trouble locking onto vehicles.
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T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants #2
diabetus- Posts : 402
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GarryB- Posts : 38923
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Of course Javelin is not great at locking targets.
Or do you think shooting range tanks just need pretty hair before they can launch missiles at them?
BTW regarding the ERA and roof racks... would add that the US is probably supplying Kiev with top attack munitions for their 155mm artillery or if they aren't how long before they do... and a roof rack and ERA plus a half metre gap and then ERA and roof armour is better than nothing to defend against that...
Or do you think shooting range tanks just need pretty hair before they can launch missiles at them?
BTW regarding the ERA and roof racks... would add that the US is probably supplying Kiev with top attack munitions for their 155mm artillery or if they aren't how long before they do... and a roof rack and ERA plus a half metre gap and then ERA and roof armour is better than nothing to defend against that...
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diabetus- Posts : 402
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Join date : 2014-04-19
GarryB wrote:Or do you think shooting range tanks just need pretty hair before they can launch missiles at them?
That's silly even coming from you. Attempt to use critical thinking skills and deduce why you would heat a target before testing an imaging infrared seeking missile. I'll give you a hint. It can't see the target if it's the same temperature as the background.
lyle6- Posts : 2177
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And you don't see a problem with that? Ahahahahaha
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GarryB- Posts : 38923
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That is exactly right, which explains the fabric coverings like Nakidka and also the slat armour and other add ons the Russians have been applying to their vehicles, but these roof racks with ERA would act like half a metre of spaced armour from above and a layer of ERA half a metre away from the actual roof of the vehicle with ERA applied is going to be rather effective against a range of threats... if one layer of ERA reduces penetration of HEAT charges and EFFs by 400mm to 500mm of armour penetration then what effect will two layers spaced half a metre to one metre apart will do... not to mention it would stop hand grenades from drones too.
Sounds like it is actually a good idea for tanks that don't have panoramic sights...
The cheap low resolution IIR sights on Javelin missiles are not really very good but still make the missiles horrendously expensive.
The Russians also use IIR guided missiles in the form of the LMUR but they waited till the IIR sensors got much higher resolution performance and also rather cheaper to mass produce... and work with a two way data link so the operator can select their target with the missile in flight...
Sounds like it is actually a good idea for tanks that don't have panoramic sights...
The cheap low resolution IIR sights on Javelin missiles are not really very good but still make the missiles horrendously expensive.
The Russians also use IIR guided missiles in the form of the LMUR but they waited till the IIR sensors got much higher resolution performance and also rather cheaper to mass produce... and work with a two way data link so the operator can select their target with the missile in flight...
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ALAMO- Posts : 6657
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The level of some comments really pushes the retardness to another level, I must say.
What fukin APS?!?
Do any of you, armchair chief engineers, have a single idea of how complicated adding APS to a tank that was not constructed with such in mind?
It is a factory made extensive modernization, with multiple subsystems replaced/relocated, with kilometers of wiring to be redesigned and replaced new. At the end of a day, it costs half of a tank price.
This ERA erected construction costs perfectly nothing.
Can be applied to any vehicle in a field condition, using prefabricated parts and old ERA blocks that hundreds of thousands are stored.
And resolves the issue of top attacks in a very significant percentage. Expand a Nakidka on that, and you can play Goofy with Javelins all day long.
This pointless DMC realized me one more fantastic Wunderwaffe feature that the mighty westerners are so much better than the backward Russkie.
Not sure if any of you, my armchair tank warfare home-level expert realize a fact, the Challenger 2 tank does not have a laser warning system.
At all.
Back in 2018, this millennial step was proposed as a part of a modernization project, ad finally, the mighty Challenger 3 tank will get it, stepping proudly into 80s.
40 years post-factum, but let's not spoil the overall western incel masturbation orgy.
Behold!
What fukin APS?!?
Do any of you, armchair chief engineers, have a single idea of how complicated adding APS to a tank that was not constructed with such in mind?
It is a factory made extensive modernization, with multiple subsystems replaced/relocated, with kilometers of wiring to be redesigned and replaced new. At the end of a day, it costs half of a tank price.
This ERA erected construction costs perfectly nothing.
Can be applied to any vehicle in a field condition, using prefabricated parts and old ERA blocks that hundreds of thousands are stored.
And resolves the issue of top attacks in a very significant percentage. Expand a Nakidka on that, and you can play Goofy with Javelins all day long.
This pointless DMC realized me one more fantastic Wunderwaffe feature that the mighty westerners are so much better than the backward Russkie.
Not sure if any of you, my armchair tank warfare home-level expert realize a fact, the Challenger 2 tank does not have a laser warning system.
At all.
Back in 2018, this millennial step was proposed as a part of a modernization project, ad finally, the mighty Challenger 3 tank will get it, stepping proudly into 80s.
40 years post-factum, but let's not spoil the overall western incel masturbation orgy.
Behold!
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Tolstoy- Posts : 229
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ARENA has been designed to be effective against top attack ATGMs. Why will it not be effective against hand grenades dropped from drones?GarryB wrote:Would an APS system be effective against hand grenades dropped from drones?
TMA1- Posts : 1124
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Looks like it, and the state testing them confirms it. Issie is there are thousands of 5hings needing building and upgrading and Russia does not have the defense budget of China or America. There are priorities and plans. So it will still take time.
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diabetus- Posts : 402
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lyle6 wrote:And you don't see a problem with that? Ahahahahaha
Wow another guy who doesn't know what IIR is. This is one of the dumbest posts ever. I mean you've never used thermal optics clearly. Guess what? You shoot at heated targets at the range when you use thermals.
limb- Posts : 1550
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The era roof panel is a great idea provided theres era plates on the roof armor itself. One layer for the precursor charge, another for the main charge.
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GarryB- Posts : 38923
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ARENA has been designed to be effective against top attack ATGMs. Why will it not be effective against hand grenades dropped from drones?
I don't know... that is why I am asking.
But whether it is effective or not a roof rack with ERA blocks attached to it can be done in the field in half an hour with a wielding kit and a few mates...
And APS would require more work and much more time and would be rather more expensive.
Wow another guy who doesn't know what IIR is. This is one of the dumbest posts ever. I mean you've never used thermal optics clearly. Guess what? You shoot at heated targets at the range when you use thermals.
He is saying that if you can't see or lock onto targets that are not heated then all the Russians have to do is cover their tanks and vehicles in things that hide the head... those rubberised outer coatings and Nakidka IR and radar camouflage material covers would hide the internal heat of a vehicle so an IIR guided missile would have trouble seeing it, and therefore also trouble getting a good lock to hit it.
Odd things are tested in the field all the time and are called field expedient measures... in WWII you can see T-34s driving around with bedsprings on them to try to stop Panzerfausts for instance... in the west some vehicles had sand bags piled onto them to improve protection from things like 50cal HMGs or defeat HESH rounds...
This is a field expedient too I suspect and if it works as intended you might see something adopted that is better designed and integrated... perhaps mast mounted sights mounted above the roof rack to improve visibility with a machine gun attached too so seeing and aiming and shooting at air targets is not effected by the rack.
Likely the best example is probably the log carried on Soviet tanks in case it got stuck in deep mud or deep snow.
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diabetus- Posts : 402
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GarryB wrote:He is saying that if you can't see or lock onto targets that are not heated then all the Russians have to do is cover their tanks and vehicles in things that hide the head...
You do realize they still emit hot exhaust when running right?
GarryB- Posts : 38923
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You do realize they still emit hot exhaust when running right?
They do, but a roof rack means from above that area is now cold and depending the angle the missile approaches from the hot parts of the exhaust might not be visible.
Another factor is that the missile seeker has to identify the target as being a tank and lots of small fires and smoke and dust in a combat zone will create lots of distractions.
The Ukrainians themselves have already said it is useless in built up areas because reflections of sunlight in the windows of buildings appear to be targets which confuses the missile sensor too.
When they fired them they could hit almost anything... and there was no way for them to get them back on target... in comparison with Kornet or Metis you can see what it is flying towards and if needed you can aim off till it gets closer so it flies clear of trees and wires and bushes in the way.
The packaging that the Javelin comes in probably costs more than the Kornet missiles.
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limb- Posts : 1550
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lyle6 wrote:>$1.1 million a pop
**** outta here.
Theres also the israeli hero series loitering munitions. China's loitering various loitering munitions utterly shit on anything russia has. Iran's ababil series is equivalent to the lancet. Russia is catching up to iran now.
limb- Posts : 1550
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ALAMO wrote:The level of some comments really pushes the retardness to another level, I must say.
What fukin APS?!?
Do any of you, armchair chief engineers, have a single idea of how complicated adding APS to a tank that was not constructed with such in mind?
It is a factory made extensive modernization, with multiple subsystems replaced/relocated, with kilometers of wiring to be redesigned and replaced new. At the end of a day, it costs half of a tank price.
This ERA erected construction costs perfectly nothing.
Can be applied to any vehicle in a field condition, using prefabricated parts and old ERA blocks that hundreds of thousands are stored.
And resolves the issue of top attacks in a very significant percentage. Expand a Nakidka on that, and you can play Goofy with Javelins all day long.
This pointless DMC realized me one more fantastic Wunderwaffe feature that the mighty westerners are so much better than the backward Russkie.
Not sure if any of you, my armchair tank warfare home-level expert realize a fact, the Challenger 2 tank does not have a laser warning system.
At all.
Back in 2018, this millennial step was proposed as a part of a modernization project, ad finally, the mighty Challenger 3 tank will get it, stepping proudly into 80s.
40 years post-factum, but let's not spoil the overall western incel masturbation orgy.
Behold!
Then how does israel easily put trophy and iron fist on 100+ merkavas and achzarits? Are you saying russia cannot afford israeli expenditure on APS, or russian tankers deserve less protection abd money spent on them than israeli tankers? BTW iron fist works perfectly since 2009, can destroy APFSDS and can be put on any AFV. Wheres the afghanit meanwhile?
Mir- Posts : 3116
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limb- Posts : 1550
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>2006
Mir- Posts : 3116
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Quite right. Quite a number of the Merkava 4's were disabled back then. Kornet came as a bit of a shock for the Israelis. Despite Trophy the main threat for these tanks are mostly IED's and AT mines.
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Belisarius- Posts : 721
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Theres also the israeli hero series loitering munitions. China's loitering various loitering munitions utterly shit on anything russia has. Iran's ababil series is equivalent to the lancet. Russia is catching up to iran now.
The Lancet's combat history "utterly shit" on the Chinese, Israeli and Iranian drones you mentioned.
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GarryB- Posts : 38923
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Interesting there limb... one second a new Russian drone management and control system is shit because it uses cheap chinese junk components and drones and now it seems China is superior in drones and Russia needs to learn from them.
I mean obviously Chinas combat experience cannot be questioned... because it does not exist... unless you count suppressing unhappy groups amongst the population and delivering food to locked down cities... but in that regard then the UK should be leaders in drone technology too... they seem to have surveillance cameras on every corner, so they must have an abundance of cameras and people trained to monitor the video streams they create...
I mean obviously Chinas combat experience cannot be questioned... because it does not exist... unless you count suppressing unhappy groups amongst the population and delivering food to locked down cities... but in that regard then the UK should be leaders in drone technology too... they seem to have surveillance cameras on every corner, so they must have an abundance of cameras and people trained to monitor the video streams they create...
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lyle6- Posts : 2177
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T-72 repair kino
As a rule the vast majority of knocked out armor can and will be returned to service. Their crews also mostly survive the experience and live on to fight another day(s). Thus there are only two real ways to permanently cripple your opponent's armored force. One is to capture the field and deprive him of salvage. The other is to destroy his ability to manufacture and repair his vehicles in the rear.
Ukraine is having mixed results at best in the former; they haven't done anything at all towards accomplishing the latter task.
The complete opposite of the Russians who are very vicious in destroying Ukraine's armor repair capabilities, having razed each of Ukraine's AFV manufacturing and repair plants many times over. As a result the Ukrainians have become very careful in using their remaining armor, because without the capability to repair their vehicles they now have all the reusability of a condom.
And unfortunately for the hohols, its even gotten worse because the major repairs for the capricious NATO vehicles can only be done in facilities in Poland and Germany. That means a round trip of 2000km at least, compared to barely a hop and a skip to access Russian repair facilities.
As a rule the vast majority of knocked out armor can and will be returned to service. Their crews also mostly survive the experience and live on to fight another day(s). Thus there are only two real ways to permanently cripple your opponent's armored force. One is to capture the field and deprive him of salvage. The other is to destroy his ability to manufacture and repair his vehicles in the rear.
Ukraine is having mixed results at best in the former; they haven't done anything at all towards accomplishing the latter task.
The complete opposite of the Russians who are very vicious in destroying Ukraine's armor repair capabilities, having razed each of Ukraine's AFV manufacturing and repair plants many times over. As a result the Ukrainians have become very careful in using their remaining armor, because without the capability to repair their vehicles they now have all the reusability of a condom.
And unfortunately for the hohols, its even gotten worse because the major repairs for the capricious NATO vehicles can only be done in facilities in Poland and Germany. That means a round trip of 2000km at least, compared to barely a hop and a skip to access Russian repair facilities.
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GarryB- Posts : 38923
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Then how does israel easily put trophy and iron fist on 100+ merkavas and achzarits? Are you saying russia cannot afford israeli expenditure on APS, or russian tankers deserve less protection abd money spent on them than israeli tankers? BTW iron fist works perfectly since 2009, can destroy APFSDS and can be put on any AFV. Wheres the afghanit meanwhile?
Well Israel got its arse handed to it by Kornets and RPG-29s and they don't have 10,000 tanks, but most importantly they don't fight countries with HATO level C4ISTAR capabilities that could detect MMW radar emissions on the battlefield to locate and track all your armour in real time... which as you might realise might put your forces at a severe disadvantage.
Russian APS systems seem to be rather good, but there are remaining issues that need to be solved and are being solved.
If Iron Fist works perfectly why are we seeing destroyed Israeli armour in the current conflict?
Remember those claiming APS systems should be installed on everything seem to think they are perfect and have a 100% success rate and are never turned off or run out of ammo or bypassed.
Tell me what you think Iron Fist might have done for an Abrams tank in Iraq destroyed by an IED?
In fact when the threat is IEDs and Mines and Artillery and drones then APS systems are not perfect... most APS systems have speed limits where they ignore things going too slow so would ignore a shaped charge munition falling from a cluster bomb or artillery shell or dropped from a drone... while cage armour would give protection.
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lyle6- Posts : 2177
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They're using Trophy, mostly, but the two systems are very similar based around the same technology of a radar cued rotatable launcher firing EFP slugs. Not the best design if you ask me, since its useless against subcaliber shots and the slugs are a massive fratricide risk out to a couple hundred meters.GarryB wrote:
If Iron Fist works perfectly why are we seeing destroyed Israeli armour in the current conflict?
Remember those claiming APS systems should be installed on everything seem to think they are perfect and have a 100% success rate and are never turned off or run out of ammo or bypassed.
Tell me what you think Iron Fist might have done for an Abrams tank in Iraq destroyed by an IED?
Which brings us to the bigger problem. Namely, the IDF hasn't really solved the APS deconfliction issue. They just bypassed it by forbidding infantry to operate close to armor. But in doing so, they stepped into an even bigger rake of unsupported armor acting alone in closed terrain.
Imagine that, all that effort into studying the Russian experience in Grozny, billions of dollars in advanced technology and decades of experience and Tzahal still finds itself in the same fucked up situation.
I could gloat at all the hasbara bros who boasted the IDF is a much better than the Russian Army but its not good sport to make fun of the dead.
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^^^
The issue is that we rarely see Trophy engaging RPGs. So not only their tank usage is flawed operationally, but there is this little technical nuance as well
The issue is that we rarely see Trophy engaging RPGs. So not only their tank usage is flawed operationally, but there is this little technical nuance as well
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Looks comfortable.
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