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    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants #2

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    Post  limb Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:31 pm

    Israelis have harop too.
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:11 pm

    >$1.1 million a pop
    **** outta here. Razz

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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:37 am

    Russia has no equivalent to the MMP akeron(already given to ukros) or spike NLOS. Both blow the metis and kornet respectively out of the water.

    Spike is even slower than Javelin and would be horribly vulnerable to countermeasures like dazzling lasers.

    SHTORA would probably be effective against Spike.

    Metis and Kornet are cheap enough that they could make so many that over a year into the conflict they still have plenty.

    America... a country able to print money with no consequences has run out of Javelins and is currently supplying ancient TOW missiles from storage.

    Sometimes having the smart sophisticated weapon is not an advantage at all.

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    Post  diabetus Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:15 am

    GarryB wrote:SHTORA would probably be effective against Spike.

    Based on what?
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:53 am

    Smoke and optical dazzlers....

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    Post  0nillie0 Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:Smoke and optical dazzlers....

    How would the system/crew know a Spike N-LOS is approaching, much less from where?
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:12 pm

    The very same way as airborne EW systems gets the awareness of IR-guided missiles - by monitoring flashes and exhaust heat of the missile.
    And/or blicks of optics when luminated by the laser emitter.
    The same solution applies to all SACLOS missiles - the one wire guided does not emit anything. Laser rangefinders appeared as a backup for TI scopes with new mods only in the 00s.

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    Post  0nillie0 Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:26 pm

    ALAMO wrote:The very same way as airborne EW systems gets the awareness of IR-guided missiles - by monitoring flashes and exhaust heat of the missile.
    And/or blicks of optics when luminated by the laser emitter.
    The same solution applies to all SACLOS missiles - the one wire guided does not emit anything. Laser rangefinders appeared as a backup for TI scopes with new mods only in the 00s.

    I am talking about Spike N-LOS using electro-optical with man in the loop versus Shtora as per T-90 specifically.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:33 pm

    You are in a phantasy mode or something? scratch
    NLOS is a tactical-grade missile revealed less than a year ago, with perfectly zero distribution anywhere.
    Wanking contest is on the other floor. scratch
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    Post  0nillie0 Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:45 pm

    ALAMO wrote:You are in a phantasy mode or something? scratch
    NLOS is a tactical-grade missile revealed less than a year ago, with perfectly zero distribution anywhere.
    Wanking contest is on the other floor. scratch

    So because a system is not yet distributed it can not be discussed here and should go to the wanking section? Scratch/move half of the content in this section then...

    It was a hypothetical scenario to begin with, hence why Garry used the phrasing "would probably be effective". I appreciate his and other people's knowledge on the matter, and wanted to know more.
    I thought a forum would be a good place to ask about it. Not everything is about fanboy-ism you know...
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:01 pm

    You have asked a different thing.
    It will be revealed the same way as any other chemical-driven and Einstein physics-obeying object.
    Yet it is not an existing threat, and not a dedicated AT one - so discussing that is pointless at the moment.
    You can spoil your energy by figuring out how one will defeat a laser beam the invaders from Gamma Ypsilone will bring in.
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    Post  Isos Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:18 pm

    You can point the laser 10m away from the tank while the missile travels and target the tank during the last few seconds.

    Most of tank being gired at with atgm didn't even know they were targeted. At least not in the ones that were filmed.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:38 am

    SHTORA is a suite of equipment that included laser dazzlers as well as smoke grenade launchers and laser sensors.

    If SHTORA is useless against an optically guided ATGM because the optically guided missile does not emit laser or other energy to alert the target vehicle and the system can't detect missiles in flight then perhaps someone could explain how the system worked against wire guided missiles like Milan and TOW.

    The dazzling system with the two large IR emitters on the front of the T-90 defeated TOW and Milan and other wire guided missiles because the control system of those missiles used what is called a gionometer... an IR sensor that was also pointed at the target along with the main sight that the gunner used to track the target by putting the crosshairs on the target vehicle. The gionometer detected the IR flares in the tail of the missile and detected the locational difference from where the IR flare was and where the target was (where the crosshair was placed in the field of view).

    The missile guidance used the visible difference between the IR flare and the centre of the crosshair to command the missile to manouver to centre itself on the crosshair and maintain that position in flight to impact... as long as that is maintained and the crosshair remains on the target tank the missile will either run out of fuel or it will hit the target.

    The dazzlers were like spot lights in the IR wavelength which meant the guidance system of the wire guided missile could not locate the outgoing missile and they generally flew into the ground no where near the target.

    The point is that this doesn't work of the system can't detect enemy missiles incoming... which it could.

    What has changed is that the west does not use wire guided missiles any more so the role of the dazzler has changed from overwhelming a gionometer to overwhelming and optical sensor... which means it has probably gone from using big box shaped IR LEDs with enormous heatsinks to much smaller IR lasers which you can see on the new vehicles.... positioned each side of the main gun in roughly the same locations as the old dazzlers...

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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:45 am

    You can point the laser 10m away from the tank while the missile travels and target the tank during the last few seconds.

    If you point a laser 10m away from the tank the intense reflections will set off the laser warning system just as easily if it was pointed directly at the tank.

    With laser beam riding missiles the laser beam is a fraction of the power of western lazer guided weapons because a laser beam riding missile looks back and the launch platform directly at the laser beam... the laser does not reflect off anything... so at 8.5km with a Kornet-EM the laser is travelling 8.5km.

    A laser homing Hellfire however at 8km range when you launch the missile the laser beam has travelled from the launch helicopter 8km to the target and the reflected laser light needs to be seen from the helicopter another 8km away so that laser light needs to travel 16km for the missile to lock on and that is effected by what colour the target is and how shiny it is and how much rain and smoke and dust or snow there is between the helicopter and the target.

    With a laser beam riding missile you can aim 10m high so the missile will fly clear of fences and bushes and small trees and telephone wires etcetc and then drop down on target for the last few hundred metres.

    Note Soviet and Russian laser guided bombs and rockets only home for the last one second of flight for powered rockets and missiles and the last 3 seconds of flight for unpowered bombs, so the time to launch smoke and for it to deploy is rather short... it also means they actually aim to hit their targets and use the guidance system to make the hit more precise.

    Certainly systems only work when they are turned on.

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    Post  Hole Sat May 06, 2023 11:44 am

    When the roof cages appeared over a year ago I wrote that sooner or later someone will put ERA bricks on them.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat May 06, 2023 12:04 pm

    Remind me of the Javelin penetration, 500 mm? Laughing
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    Post  xeno Sat May 06, 2023 2:16 pm

    FGS, now this is embarrassing...
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    Post  Tolstoy Sat May 06, 2023 7:06 pm

    Hole wrote:When the roof cages appeared over a year ago I wrote that sooner or later someone will put ERA bricks on them.
    Instead of adding extra weight could have placed a new APS instead. Would have been able to neutralise any ATGM.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sat May 06, 2023 8:57 pm

    Yea, WTF is up with the lack of Arena systems??? scratch

    You have both Arena 1 and 2, yet i see neither deployed??
    Instead we have this cage nonsense.
    Which will give you less situational awareness than the Arena-1.

    Wasted opportunity to fully combat test these new systems.
    Not even a limited deployment, very strange. No


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    Post  Broski Sat May 06, 2023 8:58 pm

    Tolstoy wrote:
    Hole wrote:When the roof cages appeared over a year ago I wrote that sooner or later someone will put ERA bricks on them.  
    Instead of adding extra weight could have placed a new APS instead. Would have been able to neutralise any ATGM.
    At what cost?
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    Post  diabetus Sat May 06, 2023 9:20 pm

    ALAMO wrote:You are in a phantasy mode or something? scratch
    NLOS is a tactical-grade missile revealed less than a year ago, with perfectly zero distribution anywhere.
    Wanking contest is on the other floor. scratch

    Revealed less than a year ago? NLOS has been around for years.
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    Post  diabetus Sat May 06, 2023 9:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:Smoke and optical dazzlers....

    Yeah that's already of questionable utility vs the javelin, even less useful vs NLOS.
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    Post  lyle6 Sun May 07, 2023 12:34 am

    Just stand still and you have an 80% chance of not getting hit by a Javelin - and that's in training ground conditions with trained missileers.

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    Post  diabetus Sun May 07, 2023 1:05 am

    Lyle6 wrote:Just stand still and you have an 80% chance of not getting hit by a Javelin - and that's in training ground conditions with trained missileers.

    Lol. Ok.
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    Post  GarryB Sun May 07, 2023 4:04 am

    Remind me of the Javelin penetration, 500 mm?

    Funny you say that because Javelin relies on a heat lock of the target and from front on the heat signature of the tank is going to be rather different from the view from above because that rack and those ERA blocks wont be heated like the gun barrel or engine might be heated.

    Javelins penetration is about 750mm, but an ERA block and then a half metre air gap and then the ERA blocks of the turret roof and then the turret roof armour might be effective... assuming the Javelin holds lock to start with.

    During tests they had to heat shooting range target tanks with big banks of hair driers so they could get a lock on their targets in test conditions.

    I would say an ERA block would actually be effective against hand grenades dropped from drones too... which is more likely why they are used... but it would also stop the snow and the rain as well.

    Instead of adding extra weight could have placed a new APS instead. Would have been able to neutralise any ATGM.

    Would an APS system be effective against hand grenades dropped from drones?

    Suggests the threat is drones and small munitions to me.

    Lol. Ok.

    Without a proper lock it is a less powerful Metis-M system costing about the same as a house in the west.

    Its 750mm armour penetration performance is not great against ERA...


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