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    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants #2

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    Post  limb Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:54 pm

    The chinese managed to create a transmission for the type 99 which allows it to reverse in 30km/h, which is a deep development of the T-72 too. If the chinese can do it so can the russians. Theres no technological limitations. Before you say 'muh doctrine" or "china is rich", the chinese army is MASSIVELY UNDERFUNDED in favor of its navy and air force. They barely have resources and still have put tanks in serbice in the last 7 years that have good reverse speed. Also the chinese tank doctrine is almost identitcal to the soviet one. All their tanks also are soviet derivatives.
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:31 pm

    China's Type 99 tank is an exercise in stupidity. Razz

    The only terrain hospitable enough to 50 ton MBTs can be found in the flatlands of Northern China. The only direction where China faces no imminent threat.

    Anywhere else calls for a much lighter vehicle.

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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:40 pm

    Well they have lighter tanks. Type 15. Already 400 of them according to wiki and few dojzens in naval infantry.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:26 am

    Russia should do it because the Czechs did it or China has done it... not really a good argument is it?

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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:41 am

    Russia did it on T-14 I think so it seems to be better to have a good reverse speed.
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:12 pm

    The Armata platform is supposed to use the same exact power pack for all of its variants, including the rear-engined MBTs and front-engined IFVs. The only way to reconcile either setup is with a transmission with same gears for both forward and reverse.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:23 pm

    Post lyle6 Yesterday at 8:31 pm

    China's Type 99 tank is an exercise in stupidity. Razz

    The only terrain hospitable enough to 50 ton MBTs can be found in the flatlands of Northern China. The only direction where China faces no imminent threat.

    Anywhere else calls for a much lighter vehicle.


    It is enough to check the tank biathlon results, or watch the biathlon itself - a pure joy for the eyes.
    The Chinese are using Type 99 that is pimped for the event. There is almost nothing from a serial tank.
    Yet they are losing each and any time with regular 72B3s Russkie provide to all other participants.
    Wonder why Laughing

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:05 pm

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    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants #2 - Page 2 FnaM_HbWIAIGAVp?format=jpg&name=medium
    @Pataramesh
    NATO member Turkey's tank turret evolution:
    ➡ Design converging to T-90M layout

    - Shape, wide protected angle
    - NERA
    - ERA
    - Machine gun integrated into commanders TI

    But not reaching all T-90M key features
    Learning from the most experienced is almost always a right approach
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:56 am

    Interesting but will move to T-72 upgrades thread as it is more related to T-72/90 than this thread about Russian gun artillery.

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    Post  limb Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:20 pm

    China's Type 99 tank is an exercise in stupidity. Razz

    The only terrain hospitable enough to 50 ton MBTs can be found in the flatlands of Northern China. The only direction where China faces no imminent threat.

    Anywhere else calls for a much lighter vehicl

    What does that have to do with the superior reverse speed of the type 99? Also the smaller type 15 has much better reverse speed than the T-72, T-90 or T-62M.

    It is enough to check the tank biathlon results, or watch the biathlon itself - a pure joy for the eyes.
    The Chinese are using Type 99 that is pimped for the event. There is almost nothing from a serial tank.
    Yet they are losing each and any time with regular 72B3s Russkie provide to all other participants.
    Wonder why Laughing

    Because a competition where tanks are just driving on dirt roads and shooting at stationary targets is such a good show of competency in modern warfare Rolling Eyes

    Also show me a single video of chinese using type 99s instead of type 96As in the biathlon. Also show me a single tank biathlon where russia didnt get first place.
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:16 pm

    Now I know why the Chinese prioritized the reverse speed on their tanks. Since they can't advance to meet the enemy at the likely battlefield, their only choice is to reverse all the way back to the Russian border to ask for assistance Razz

    The Type-15 is a steaming pile of shit compared to the Sprut-SD btw. A rifled 105 mm gun, in the 2023 AD - how embarassing! Razz

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    Post  limb Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:19 pm

    The sprut SD and SDM are excellent, with great reverse speed, firepower , thermals and glatgms. The best modern light tanks on the market. I wish the T-72 had their reverse speed.

    Also surrender jokes? Are you 14?
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    Post  diabetus Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:47 pm

    "Russia should do it because the Czechs did it or China has done it... not really a good argument is it?"

    Not the argument. Argument is they figured out an obvious solution, no excuse why Russia can't as well. Go ahead and say that it doesn't matter because Russia hasn't done it and they are omniscient geniuses though.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:32 pm

    Now I know why the Chinese prioritized the reverse speed on their tanks. Since they can't advance to meet the enemy at the likely battlefield, their only choice is to reverse all the way back to the Russian border to ask for assistance Razz
    The Type-15 is a steaming pile of shit compared to the Sprut-SD btw. A rifled 105 mm gun, in the 2023 AD - how embarassing! Razz


    Don't laugh at the Chinese! I have friends there Very Happy
    They are using 105mm because nothing more is needed.
    It is a very practical kind of people.
    This whole discussion is just fukin' crazy.
    Some random internet breed incel found one day an info, that some particular Russkie tank cant reverse at speed.
    He has no bloody clue what a gearbox is, what speeds are usually used on the battlefield - he doesn't care!
    There is one single hole he can put his little dick in.
    Now, they will make a whole fukin Tolkien level of narration around this irrelevant - objectively - fact.

    If you have a tool that lacks some parameters - you just figure out the strategy to cover that.

    How Russkie battled Tigers, Panthers and Ferdinands delivered in hundreds, having some two dozen of SPGs that could hold a fire exchange at Kursk?

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:32 am

    Not the argument. Argument is they figured out an obvious solution, no excuse why Russia can't as well. Go ahead and say that it doesn't matter because Russia hasn't done it and they are omniscient geniuses though.

    Amusing a member is asked if they are 14...

    First we don't know what the reverse speed of the upgraded T-72s is so we don't know if this is even a problem.

    Second are you trying to tell us that the Russians don't know how to make their tanks go backwards faster if they actually wanted them to?

    Are you actually trying to say the Russians can't design engines and gearboxes and transmissions for the T-72 to allow it to go backwards faster than other countries who copied T-72s can?

    Obviously if they haven't done it it is because they are morons that don't know anything about tank warfare and ignore the pleas of their tank crews... except where they do listen...

    The upgrades they have applied to their T-72s are to make them better but what does that mean better and how do they know what better is... unless they look at their own experience and the experience of other tank users...

    How Russkie battled Tigers, Panthers and Ferdinands delivered in hundreds, having some two dozen of SPGs that could hold a fire exchange at Kursk?

    Indeed... the Russians know nothing about armoured warfare... which is why the thousands of tanks the Ukraine had a year ago not to mention the enormous numbers of tanks that slipped over the HATO border to them over these last 11 months are no longer there... forwarding address... 666 Hell.

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    Post  lyle6 Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:01 am

    ALAMO wrote:Don't laugh at the Chinese! I have friends there Very Happy
    But are you close enough to exchange racist quips all the time? I don't think so  Razz

    ALAMO wrote:
    They are using 105mm because nothing more is needed.
    I disagree. The T-14 demonstrated that bleeding-edge optimizations in the unmanned turret, ERA and APS can result in a tank that is significantly more protected than a vehicle that is ~ 20 tons heavier. An equivalent K-14 (Kurganets MBT) would have at least the protection of a T-90, which is a lot more than what the subcaliber shots for the tapped out 105 rifled gun can handle.

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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:35 am

    Now I know why the Chinese prioritized the reverse speed on their tanks. Since they can't advance to meet the enemy at the likely battlefield, their only choice is to reverse all the way back to the Russian border to ask for assistance Razz

    The Type-15 is a steaming pile of shit compared to the Sprut-SD btw. A rifled 105 mm gun, in the 2023 AD - how embarassing! Razz

    Type 15 is made for mountainous areas where they face Indians. Chinese sent them last time and indians had nothing to send to counter them, t-90 can't operate there. Its 105mm will be the most powerful gun in such areas and it will go through any vehicle there.

    Sprout SD isn't a tank but a bmp with a big gun for VDV if I'm not wrong. It's protection is very bad even against smaller 30mm guns.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:44 am

    The Type 15 isn't much more than a BMP, it is a 33 ton vehicle which means not air droppable and not amphibious... it would be horribly vulnerable to any anti armour weapons.

    Sprut is a tank... a light tank.
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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:05 am

    Type 15 is light but designed as a tank. It munition are stored like on abrams on the back of the turret with panels protecting the crew. It also has a protection package that increases the weight to 36t but provide ERA protection. It wasn't made to be droppable.

    Sprout SD is 18t so half the weight of type 15 and is just a bmp hull with a 125mm gun. Any penetration will atomize the crew.
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:22 am

    The Type 15 follows the same general arrangement as the French Leclerc MBT, and is even similarly sized, but is more than 20 tons lighter. There is no way its armor can protect against anything more powerful than IFV autocannon shells. Against even slightly more dangerous threats, it will die just as quickly as the Sprut-SD light tank.

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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:34 am

    Of course it can be destroyed. It's a light tank. But again in the areas where it will operate it will be better than any other vehicle. Its protection with adds-on is enough to face IFV and BMP until it uses its gun to one shot them. It's 105mm gun also gives an advantage in range but that is not really important in mountainous areas unless you spot the enemy on the other mountain 4km away.

    Its size also allows the addition of an APS to counter rpg threats.

    Sprout sd will have hard time against 20 or 30mm guns. It is far less survivable but it was designed for VDV so it must light for air drops.

    Not the same roles.
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:42 am

    @lyle6,
    Well, I'm close enough to deal with them for more than a decade and watch our children grow for that money, so there is not much space for racist jokes bro Laughing

    As I said - the Chinese are practical. If they have a 105mm armed floating semi-tank, that means it suits their needs.
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:51 am

    Isos wrote:Of course it can be destroyed. It's a light tank. But again in the areas where it will operate it will be better than any other vehicle. Its protection with adds-on is enough to face IFV and BMP until it uses its gun to one shot them. It's 105mm gun also gives an advantage in range but that is not really important in mountainous areas unless you spot the enemy on the other mountain 4km away.

    Its size also allows the addition of an APS to counter rpg threats.

    Sprout sd will have hard time against 20 or 30mm guns. It is far less survivable but it was designed for VDV so it must light for air drops.

    Not the same roles.

    The Sprut-SD can also mount an APS. So that leaves that the Type 15's only real advantage in protection over the Sprut-SD is that it can resist autocannon fire better. Is that it?

    When you put it like that its even more underwhelming. You have a vehicle twice the Sprut-SD's weight but all it gave you is a slightly less paper armor and an even shittier gun. Wow.

    ALAMO wrote:As I said - the Chinese are practical. If they have a 105mm armed floating semi-tank, that means it suits their needs.
    Yeah, well we'd probably be looking at these things in the steel with our luck. Is it so much to ask to be blown up by a proper 125 mm instead of a joke caliber?

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:10 pm

    Objectively speaking, you shouldn't make a comparison between the Chinese and Russia.
    Those are two different leagues.
    Russkie has a 100+ years old heritage of the tank construction business, and are de facto own class.
    Since the purchase of Christie's chassis and making it usable, they created standards for others to follow.
    Chinese are still soaked deeply into Soviet-origin tanks, so we are talking about some 30 years behind.
    Will they catch up? Probably/maybe. How fast? At the rate they find convenient.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:41 pm

    Type 15 is light but designed as a tank.

    Sprut is light and is designed to be a tank... it has a real tank gun that is as effective as any 125mm gun on any Russian tank and uses the same ammo.

    It munition are stored like on abrams on the back of the turret with panels protecting the crew.

    So ammo exposed and vulnerable to enemy fire... not a good thing.

    It also has a protection package that increases the weight to 36t but provide ERA protection. It wasn't made to be droppable.

    So it has the weaker armour of a light tank but none of the advantages like being dropped by parachute or being amphibious...

    Sprout SD is 18t so half the weight of type 15 and is just a bmp hull with a 125mm gun. Any penetration will atomize the crew.

    Any penetration in any tank will kill the crew.

    The Type 15 follows the same general arrangement as the French Leclerc MBT, and is even similarly sized, but is more than 20 tons lighter. There is no way its armor can protect against anything more powerful than IFV autocannon shells. Against even slightly more dangerous threats, it will die just as quickly as the Sprut-SD light tank.

    It is unlikely to protect the crew from 57mm APFSDS rounds from the grenade launcher model BMP let alone the 57mm APFSDS rounds of the 2S38 SPAAG vehicle.

    Of course it can be destroyed. It's a light tank. But again in the areas where it will operate it will be better than any other vehicle. Its protection with adds-on is enough to face IFV and BMP until it uses its gun to one shot them.

    The Sprut can hit and kill armoured targets out to 5km, at which range even 25mm DU rounds might not take it out.

    It's 105mm gun also gives an advantage in range but that is not really important in mountainous areas unless you spot the enemy on the other mountain 4km away.

    It has been used in mountains but is not designed for operations in mountains specifically... and the 125mm gun outranges it.

    Its size also allows the addition of an APS to counter rpg threats.

    Which means it will still be vulnerable to RPG-30 and double shots of Kornet.


    Sprout sd will have hard time against 20 or 30mm guns. It is far less survivable but it was designed for VDV so it must light for air drops.

    Like to see a BMP with a 20mm or 30mm firing at Sprut firing back with a 125mm gun...

    Not the same roles.

    Both are designed to be used where conventional tanks are not suitable because they are too heavy.

    In the Ukraine conflict thread there are videos of VDV T-72M3M upgrades taking on entire enemy armour formations... when operating in conventional war the VDV has up armour kits for their vehicles... if the ground is very soft they can uparmour their Spruts to quite a decent level if they don't need to be airdropped or amphibious.

    And they have APS systems for BMP-3s... what makes you think there is nothing for Sprut?

    Objectively speaking, you shouldn't make a comparison between the Chinese and Russia.
    Those are two different leagues.

    Of course they are different tanks for different purposes.... the Sprut is an airborne vehicle that will be popular with countries in Asia with a lot of soft ground where conventional tanks just disappear in the mud... the Chinese have a long history of making mini tanks from conventional tanks, where they take a conventional tank like a T-55 and make a scaled down model with an 85mm gun and call it a light tank for use where a MBT is overkill but you need something more than a BMP.

    The Russian comparison would probably be a BMP-3, except modified the 100mm rifled gun to have a higher pressure barrel and an APFSDS round.

    The actual difference is that one has a previous generation gun that would struggle against current generation tanks, while the other has a full power full calibre main gun.

    Both would struggle with the cannon on modern BMPs because the new BMPs like the B-19 have 57mm calibre guns... with APFSDS rounds.

    32 tons is about the weight of a T-34...

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