the idea of placing an artillery mount over air defense will get you fired from MOD today
With guided shells an artillery mount could be the most effective air defence system on the ship...
A 57mm or 76mm gun with guided shells with proximity fuses or command detonation fuses with radar tracking the rounds out and the targets so the round explodes as close as possible should be cheap enough to have in enormous numbers and actually use against drones and light threats.
Larger calibre rounds offer even more room for speed and range and capability.
With a deck mounted gun with 500 plus rounds it is a weapon that is versatile and effective against a range of targets including dumb cheap rounds for warning shots.
A 152mm round with a reduced calibre APHE round and guidance could hit targets at enormous distances and a version for a 203mm gun could be used on new Cruisers.
I would like to see an Orlan class ship with a 152mm gun for testing... they would be a good idea for a Destroyer sized ship.
Imagine an enemy ship like that British ship that violated Crimean waters a short while back... it has 48 tubes for SAMs... what is it going to do if a Russian destroyer it is attacking fires a 60 round burst of 152mm guided artillery shells from 150km away?
Even assuming it can fire all 48 missiles in the time available... and every single self defence missile hits an incoming round... penetrating hits from the remaining 12 rounds will do some serious damage... and they are guided so you could target some against the deck area or the funnels or have some that are radar homing and steering towards the main radar arrays on the ship...
I do agree guns should not replace missiles, but you need both... during normal operations a small ship is going to use a gun more than it will use missiles... the syrian and ukrainian conflicts are abberations... Russia does not seek conflict and wont go out of its way to use its navy and military forces to kill people the way the US does.
In fact coastal shelling was not used enough to justify the loss of AD module on a patrol ship which operates in the zone of an enemy which is bristling with AsHm and Drones
Because current guns lack the range and accuracy to be very good at the role... the 76mm guns reach about 16km as do the new 57mm guns, but both would be useful against drone threats with airburst shells. The 100mm guns and 130mm guns max out at less than 30km range, so against 152mm guns on land they don't have any range advantage, though the fact that the ship is always moving is an advantage in terms of return fire.
You don't use Corvettes and Frigates for naval gun support roles... destroyers and cruisers are generally used if they have suitable guns and the current ships don't but that is why the navy invested in the 152mm guns with the army and the army has been using 152mm and 203mm guns and also 240mm mortars with good success it seems so maybe funding will be found for 203mm guns as well.. certainly a 180km 152mm ranged shell would be useful and perhaps a 250km range 203mm gun would be valuable too... but that wont be available for a while yet.
The Shmel class artillery ship from caspian sea is doing such duties as you describe, but to waste a hull with good PowerPlant to supplant the army is a waste, and my best is that the next reform will mean giving more independence to both the VKS and the VMF away from just being artillery support for the army
River patrol boats are part of the KGB/FSB and not used by the Navy AFAIK.
The only Naval Gun Support (NGS) vessel the Soviets used were the reactivated Sverdlov cruisers with 152mm guns of an older type... in the same way that the US put a few Iowa class battleships back into service for the same role with their 406mm guns... which interestingly had a 40km range which is less than the 203mm land based Malka guns... but obviously a huge difference in shell size and effect on target...
You can equip any small ship with a gun mount, and create strictly a class that is for patrol/coastal shelling which is smaller than 500 tons
But for a 1000 ton patrol ship, you don't need such a thing,
The Russians have upgraded their gun mounts from the cold war period and their new guns have become much lighter so where before a small patrol boat might have a 57mm or 76mm gun with the new mounts it can have a 100mm gun, and new frigates that used to be fitted with 76mm guns can now have 100mm or 130mm guns.
They are modifying their old destroyers to have 130mm guns and are calling them frigates... the new guns are much lighter and allow rather more ammo to be carried, but their new 130mm gun is not designed for sustained use for shore bombardment.
I suspect their new build destroyers and cruisers will have larger calibre guns like the 152mm gun which the Navy has already said it was introducing... they might put one on the deck in front of the island of their new helicopter carriers for all we know, but new destroyers will get them too and they will likely replace the shore gun in teh form of the 130mm Bereg system. Having 203mm guns for their Cruisers would be good too if they upgrade the ammo too.
At best some 30mm guns, but if 22160 will be performing coastal duties, it would be better to have an air defense attached, and cruise missiles,
Their land based AD gun systems are adding 57mm guns, and their new 76mm and 100mm guns would be very capable with guided shells and airburst rounds with command and proximity fuses.
Their new 76mm guns can spit out up to 135 rpm... their 57mm guns fire 80 or 120 rpm depending on the model (light and heavy respectively) but with guided shells and command detonated rounds it doesn't need a high rate of fire
Their corvettes have already been shown with 100mm guns which would be ideal for use agaisnt drones and other air targets...
Then it's obvious that this equipment is more necessary then some artillery patrol ship which cannot secure even a small island or provide escort duties for the flagship of the fleet
What are you prattling on about.... a Corvette or a Frigate benefits from having a decent deck gun... they are all purpose and versatile and cheap in a way that missiles are not.
The loss of Moskva was good for many things-
It will silence all those voices which continue to echo these army commanders, which authorize ships with a 76mm gun , without air defense or missiles
We don't know enough about what happened to make any decisions yet... with operational radar and operating weapons systems it should have been quite safe from incoming subsonic anti ship missiles... even two of them... the OSA missile launchers are twin armed so two missiles could be fired at each incoming missile in the time it would take for the to cover the max and min range of the missiles.
This loss was a necessary one, to give the VMF the place it needs
Cutting off relations with most of Europe is going to shift Russian focus to the rest of the world anyway and the sea is the only way to trade with the rest of the world without going through western middlemen.
If Kremlin doesn't wish to end up with such an egg on its face, it will open the coffers for greater VMF investment, and begin to listen to admirals rather then infantry and mechanized officers about the needs of the fleet
By egg to you mean Kievs lies... who cares about that former country?
The problem is not the project, but that wrong class of ships were built
Such a military operation can occur at any time
You don't use Corvettes of Frigates to fight wars... corvettes and frigates are coastal self defence...
Destroyers and Cruisers are what Russia would use for conflicts... but they don't need them for this one.
In the Black sea, the VMF has wanted 500 ton ships with missiles and pantsir
But due to issues with Pella shipyard, and Zvezda, that class got fucked up
500 ton ships could only be used to keep your coastal waters free of sea mines and would be not much good for anything at all.
This kind of operation was always a possibility
If they do this right this operation will be very rare.
Operations in other countries not near Russian borders will be more likely and will not involve corvettes or frigates... at best a few long range frigates might be used in anti piracy roles.
For actual combat no ship of 500t would be of any use because of the tiny number of ready to use missiles they could ever carry.
Why use the naval TOR then? They can use the naval BUK-3.
A new Naval TOR system could be bolted on to the deck of small and larger existing ships, but BUK is enormous and would take an entire deck level below the deck for the missiles and equipment. In comparison the TOR vertical launch system might stick 2m up from the deck but wont penetrate the deck to the floor below like a BUK system sticking half a metre up but also occupying the deck below.
For the TOR you just need that space on deck... for BUK you would need to remove everything on the deck below as well.
Red line after Red line is crossed, and the Kremlin does nothing.
He is an idiot.
Red lines have been crossed... And the Kremlin has invaded Orc land and is currently butchering HATO allies and all HATO is doing is sending them weapons.
The Kremlin is also demanding payments for Gas in Rubles... something the Soviets never did in all the decades they have sold gas to the west...
It took EIGHT YEARS for the Kremlin to react to the slaughter of Donbass Russians,
They want to be Russians now but they are Ukrainians... if Kiev had dropped the law regarding not being allowed to speak Russian there would be no problem now... Crimea would probably still be Ukrainian.
Russia’s conduct of its foreign policy shows irresolution, and this invites more provocations. The Kremlin shows inability to comprehend the dilemma it creates for itself.
Paul Craig Roberts is not getting it... the west has openly supported nazis and provided them with bio weapons and was going to give then nukes and armed them up with anti tank and anti aircraft missiles to murder Russians... they ignored the last almost decade of the Ukraine murdering Ukrainians because they said they were Russians or pro Russian... as if that is an acceptable excuse for murdering your own people.
There is no dilemma... Russia is going to look to the rest of the world for trade and relations... cooperation with the west is over... short of launching a nuclear strike against the west that is about the most Putin could do and that is what is happening... there is no talking with western countries who spend money they don't have to kill Russians... what is there to talk about?
The media reports that Russian forces are about to be rolled up by democratic Ukrainians using American weapons. The unreality of this fantasy means more red lines will be crossed.
Western propaganda again fails to deliver the truth to the western audience... just means a bigger shock when Zelensky starts talking about unconditional surrender and Putin says not till the job is finished....
But it is OK because he believes his own bullshit and thinks he can survive and win...
Putin’s humanity, his toleration of provocations, his reluctance to use force has encouraged the West to press harder. Sooner or later a red line is going to be crossed from which there is no recovery.
When Russia wins and the Ukraine collapses perhaps when reality strikes home the west will recognise what a red line is and what that means next time.... eventually they will do something that Putin will consider too far... a nuclear strike doesn't ever make sense because he knows that is suicide and a great way for the US to reset everything and blame someone else... because they don't realise they wont survive...
Eventually the EU will cross a red line and Ukrainian Grain will burn and Russia will supply grain to the third world and let the first world buy what they need from countries that have grain that are not Russia or the Ukraine.... they could buy from Belarus but would have to drop their sanctions.
Another option would be to order Gazprom to stop supplying any gas to hostile countries... deliver what has been paid for and don't sign any more contracts for sales... it would be a financial hit for Russia but not something that would break her... for the EU on the other hand it would be very very serious.
The west will push and push unless you give them a bloody nose.
The west has only been able to push because Russia has been reaching out for cooperation and trade and partnership... the west has pushed enough so that Russia is not going to reach or lean towards them any more... in fact moving in other directions is what is going to happen.
If the west wants to buy gas they will sell them some gas but if they keep up the current BS when they have alternative customers why bother putting up with the BS they get from the west when Asia will likely pay the same or more without issues... it is a fraction of what they currently pay and who would not want cheap energy?
The EU it seems.
What type of vehicle is this?
A BMP-2 with a truck sitting behind it.
I dont think that Tor on helipad is final solution and not just testing in combat conditions. There was info couple years ago about Tor for smal lships in on autonomous container. i.e, no other radars/computers have to be installed in minimal config.
The TOR system shown is just a land based vehicle with the wheels removed and tied down to standard tie down points on the helicopter pad.... it is a test for another system that will likely be totally different... it might have a search and track radar mount that can rotate or they might use the main AESA antennas fitted to these small boats for detection and tracking and just bolt fixed launch tubes on the deck... such a system would be excellent, but a version in a standard cargo container would be good to as that could be carried by truck or train or on a ships deck ready for launch... cable tie it down and it is ready to go... no wheels or engine or anything inside the cargo container so you could get enormous numbers of missiles in one container... connect it to a generator (or the truck or train or ships power supply) and a datalink system connecting it with the ships radar or a ground vehicle radar or a radar mounted on a train carriage to search for and track targets for the missiles... would be very cool and a good addition to most units as they are ready to fire... no ammo handling... just plug it in and power it up... stacked very efficiently already...
So THATS WHY it took 8 years. Probably there is still a bit too early yet I think there was no other way out.
People are so keen to believe Kievs lies... 8 years ago it was Ukrainians killing Ukrainians because they didn't want to learn to speak Ukrainian.
Now there is a realisation that there is a strong nazi undercurrent in Ukraine and its ideology and so it is about more than not wanting to speak a different language... it is also 8 years of shelling and 8 years of demonisation from the entire west... it does not surprise me in the slightest these people might vote to join the Russian federation now... I am sure a few Kosovo Serbs would have voted to become Russian citizens if given the chance too. Doesn't make them Russians but they would prefer it to being nazis/human body parts trafficers...
I use similar stuff to this video in my garden. Stinky, but does wonders for my plants.
The people on this forum with Vann on ignore are not going to appreciate you posting his post again...
Has someone who serves, you've got to be an idiot to think the military is going to record every instance of taken out equipment
Even if they did record everything... and these days with all the EO systems in everything and the low cost of memory cards they probably could... why on earth would they publish anything at all to what is essentially their enemy... the west....
Why let the west know the performance of Russian weapons and equipment... why let them see what works and what doesn't and how you use your weapons and when and where... that would be stupid.... especially before you have analysed it and learned some lessons for yourself from them first.
Loose lips sink ships...
What most people here do not understand
Is that simply conducting regime change, killing the leadership
And installing a puppet, as well as even creating an army
I agree with what you are saying but Zelensky can have nothing to do with the future of that region... I doubt the survivors will want him considering his promises to get elected and his actions since being elected.
Is this one of miketheterrible's 6 sockpuppet accounts?
Nope. SS is a very patriotic American, but he is rather more realistic than most and probably realises this conflct between the west and Russia was a gamble by the west to have their cake and eat it too and what they are likely to end up with is getting stabbed by the knife they are using to cut the cake because it isn't a cake it is a person and that person doesn't want to be cut up...
NIIstal is probably salivating from all the contracts they will get,
Hopefully they will push through some APS and anti drone systems because of this...
What are these armor blocks, I have never seen them being used before?
Lots of very specific shapes like a jigsaw... I would expect they are ceramic and not solid metal which would be too heavy to manhandle in pieces that size.
It is some prefabricated stuff that you can install if not interested in keeping the buoyancy anymore.
I am guessing ceramic with hollow parts to maintain buoyancy... otherwise they would go for much bigger boxes like the ones shown on the uparmoured BMP-3 to stop 30mm calibre rounds from the front and sides.
I also don't think amphibious vehicles are that relevant for Russia now.
The number of rivers, they will always be relevant... hense both Kurganets and Boomerang are amphibious...
Kurganets is also not amphibious without buoyancy ballasts, so it kinda shows that cold war mobility is not as important now for Russia.
The Buoyancy side bits are part of the standard armour kit... so it is clearly important still.
If you can get amphibious capability without losing protection levels why would you not keep it?
Amusing that the US is getting its wish of replacing Soviet era cold war equipment with US stuff is coming to pass... so buying ammo for the eastern european countries will likely cost a lot more now it will be western stuff moving forward.