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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:41 am

    the idea of placing an artillery mount over air defense will get you fired from MOD today

    With guided shells an artillery mount could be the most effective air defence system on the ship...

    A 57mm or 76mm gun with guided shells with proximity fuses or command detonation fuses with radar tracking the rounds out and the targets so the round explodes as close as possible should be cheap enough to have in enormous numbers and actually use against drones and light threats.

    Larger calibre rounds offer even more room for speed and range and capability.

    With a deck mounted gun with 500 plus rounds it is a weapon that is versatile and effective against a range of targets including dumb cheap rounds for warning shots.

    A 152mm round with a reduced calibre APHE round and guidance could hit targets at enormous distances and a version for a 203mm gun could be used on new Cruisers.

    I would like to see an Orlan class ship with a 152mm gun for testing... they would be a good idea for a Destroyer sized ship.

    Imagine an enemy ship like that British ship that violated Crimean waters a short while back... it has 48 tubes for SAMs... what is it going to do if a Russian destroyer it is attacking fires a 60 round burst of 152mm guided artillery shells from 150km away?

    Even assuming it can fire all 48 missiles in the time available... and every single self defence missile hits an incoming round... penetrating hits from the remaining 12 rounds will do some serious damage... and they are guided so you could target some against the deck area or the funnels or have some that are radar homing  and steering towards the main radar arrays on the ship...

    I do agree guns should not replace missiles, but you need both... during normal operations a small ship is going to use a gun more than it will use missiles... the syrian and ukrainian conflicts are abberations... Russia does not seek conflict and wont go out of its way to use its navy and military forces to kill people the way the US does.

    In fact coastal shelling was not used enough to justify the loss of AD module on a patrol ship which operates in the zone of an enemy which is bristling with AsHm and Drones

    Because current guns lack the range and accuracy to be very good at the role... the 76mm guns reach about 16km as do the new 57mm guns, but both would be useful against drone threats with airburst shells. The 100mm guns and 130mm guns max out at less than 30km range, so against 152mm guns on land they don't have any range advantage, though the fact that the ship is always moving is an advantage in terms of return fire.

    You don't use Corvettes and Frigates for naval gun support roles... destroyers and cruisers are generally used if they have suitable guns and the current ships don't but that is why the navy invested in the 152mm guns with the army and the army has been using 152mm and 203mm guns and also 240mm mortars with good success it seems so maybe funding will be found for 203mm guns as well.. certainly a 180km 152mm ranged shell would be useful and perhaps a 250km range 203mm gun would be valuable too... but that wont be available for a while yet.

    The Shmel class artillery ship from caspian sea is doing such duties as you describe, but to waste a hull with good PowerPlant to supplant the army is a waste, and my best is that the next reform will mean giving more independence to both the VKS and the VMF away from just being artillery support for the army

    River patrol boats are part of the KGB/FSB and not used by the Navy AFAIK.

    The only Naval Gun Support (NGS) vessel the Soviets used were the reactivated Sverdlov cruisers with 152mm guns of an older type... in the same way that the US put a few Iowa class battleships back into service for the same role with their 406mm guns... which interestingly had a 40km range which is less than the 203mm land based Malka guns... but obviously a huge difference in shell size and effect on target...

    You can equip any small ship with a gun mount, and create strictly a class that is for patrol/coastal shelling which is smaller than 500 tons

    But for a 1000 ton patrol ship, you don't need such a thing,

    The Russians have upgraded their gun mounts from the cold war period and their new guns have become much lighter so where before a small patrol boat might have a 57mm or 76mm gun with the new mounts it can have a 100mm gun, and new frigates that used to be fitted with 76mm guns can now have 100mm or 130mm guns.

    They are modifying their old destroyers to have 130mm guns and are calling them frigates... the new guns are much lighter and allow rather more ammo to be carried, but their new 130mm gun is not designed for sustained use for shore bombardment.

    I suspect their new build destroyers and cruisers will have larger calibre guns like the 152mm gun which the Navy has already said it was introducing... they might put one on the deck in front of the island of their new helicopter carriers for all we know, but new  destroyers will get them too and they will likely replace the shore gun in teh form of the 130mm Bereg system. Having 203mm guns for their Cruisers would be good too if they upgrade the ammo too.

    At best some 30mm guns, but if 22160 will be performing coastal duties, it would be better to have an air defense attached, and cruise missiles,

    Their land based AD gun systems are adding 57mm guns, and their new 76mm and 100mm guns would be very capable with guided shells and airburst rounds with command and proximity fuses.

    Their new 76mm guns can spit out up to 135 rpm... their 57mm guns fire 80 or 120 rpm depending on the model (light and heavy respectively) but with guided shells and command detonated rounds it doesn't need a high rate of fire

    Their corvettes have already been shown with 100mm guns which would be ideal for use agaisnt drones and other air targets...

    Then it's obvious that this equipment is more necessary then some artillery patrol ship which cannot secure even a small island or provide escort duties for the flagship of the fleet

    What are you prattling on about.... a Corvette or a Frigate benefits from having a decent deck gun... they are all purpose and versatile and cheap in a way that missiles are not.

    The loss of Moskva was good for many things-

    It will silence all those voices which continue to echo these army commanders, which authorize ships with a 76mm gun , without air defense or missiles

    We don't know enough about what happened to make any decisions yet... with operational radar and operating weapons systems it should have been quite safe from incoming subsonic anti ship missiles... even two of them... the OSA missile launchers are twin armed so two missiles could be fired at each incoming missile in the time it would take for the to cover the max and min range of the missiles.

    This loss was a necessary one, to give the VMF the place it needs

    Cutting off relations with most of Europe is going to shift Russian focus to the rest of the world anyway and the sea is the only way to trade with the rest of the world without going through western middlemen.

    If Kremlin doesn't wish to end up with such an egg on its face, it will open the coffers for greater VMF investment, and begin to listen to admirals rather then infantry and mechanized officers about the needs of the fleet

    By egg to you mean Kievs lies... who cares about that former country?

    The problem is not the project, but that wrong class of ships were built

    Such a military operation can occur at any time

    You don't use Corvettes of Frigates to fight wars... corvettes and frigates are coastal self defence...

    Destroyers and Cruisers are what Russia would use for conflicts... but they don't need them for this one.


    In the Black sea, the VMF has wanted 500 ton ships with missiles and pantsir

    But due to issues with Pella shipyard, and Zvezda, that class got fucked up

    500 ton ships could only be used to keep your coastal waters free of sea mines and would be not much good for anything at all.

    This kind of operation was always a possibility

    If they do this right this operation will be very rare.

    Operations in other countries not near Russian borders will be more likely and will not involve corvettes or frigates... at best a few long range frigates might be used in anti piracy roles.

    For actual combat no ship of 500t would be of any use because of the tiny number of ready to use missiles they could ever carry.

    Why use the naval TOR then? They can use the naval BUK-3.

    Size.

    A new Naval TOR system could be bolted on to the deck of small and larger existing ships, but BUK is enormous and would take an entire deck level below the deck for the missiles and equipment. In comparison the TOR vertical launch system might stick 2m up from the deck but wont penetrate the deck to the floor below like a BUK system sticking half a metre up but also occupying the deck below.

    For the TOR you just need that space on deck... for BUK you would need to remove everything on the deck below as well.

    Red line after Red line is crossed, and the Kremlin does nothing.

    He is an idiot.

    Red lines have been crossed... And the Kremlin has invaded Orc land and is currently butchering HATO allies and all HATO is doing is sending them weapons.

    The Kremlin is also demanding payments for Gas in Rubles... something the Soviets never did in all the decades they have sold gas to the west...

    It took EIGHT YEARS for the Kremlin to react to the slaughter of Donbass Russians,

    They want to be Russians now but they are Ukrainians... if Kiev had dropped the law regarding not being allowed to speak Russian there would be no problem now... Crimea would probably still be Ukrainian.

    Russia’s conduct of its foreign policy shows irresolution, and this invites more provocations. The Kremlin shows inability to comprehend the dilemma it creates for itself.

    Paul Craig Roberts is not getting it... the west has openly supported nazis and provided them with bio weapons and was going to give then nukes and armed them up with anti tank and anti aircraft missiles to murder Russians... they ignored the last almost decade of the Ukraine murdering Ukrainians because they said they were Russians or pro Russian... as if that is an acceptable excuse for murdering your own people.

    There is no dilemma... Russia is going to look to the rest of the world for trade and relations... cooperation with the west is over... short of launching a nuclear strike against the west that is about the most Putin could do and that is what is happening... there is no talking with western countries who spend money they don't have to kill Russians... what is there to talk about?

    The media reports that Russian forces are about to be rolled up by democratic Ukrainians using American weapons. The unreality of this fantasy means more red lines will be crossed.

    Western propaganda again fails to deliver the truth to the western audience... just means a bigger shock when Zelensky starts talking about unconditional surrender and Putin says not till the job is finished....

    But it is OK because he believes his own bullshit and thinks he can survive and win...

    Putin’s humanity, his toleration of provocations, his reluctance to use force has encouraged the West to press harder. Sooner or later a red line is going to be crossed from which there is no recovery.

    When Russia wins and the Ukraine collapses perhaps when reality strikes home the west will recognise what a red line is and what that means next time.... eventually they will do something that Putin will consider too far... a nuclear strike doesn't ever make sense because he knows that is suicide and a great way for the US to reset everything and blame someone else... because they don't realise they wont survive...

    Eventually the EU will cross a red line and Ukrainian Grain will burn and Russia will supply grain to the third world and let the first world buy what they need from countries that have grain that are not Russia or the Ukraine.... they could buy from Belarus but would have to drop their sanctions.

    Another option would be to order Gazprom to stop supplying any gas to hostile countries... deliver what has been paid for and don't sign any more contracts for sales... it would be a financial hit for Russia but not something that would break her... for the EU on the other hand it would be very very serious.

    The west will push and push unless you give them a bloody nose.

    The west has only been able to push because Russia has been reaching out for cooperation and trade and partnership... the west has pushed enough so that Russia is not going to reach or lean towards them any more... in fact moving in other directions is what is going to happen.

    If the west wants to buy gas they will sell them some gas but if they keep up the current BS when they have alternative customers why bother putting up with the BS they get from the west when Asia will likely pay the same or more without issues... it is a fraction of what they currently pay and who would not want cheap energy?

    The EU it seems.

    What type of vehicle is this?

    A BMP-2 with a truck sitting behind it.

    I dont think that Tor on helipad is final solution and not just testing in combat conditions. There was info couple years ago about Tor for smal lships in on autonomous container. i.e, no other radars/computers have to be installed in minimal config.

    The TOR system shown is just a land based vehicle with the wheels removed and tied down to standard tie down points on the helicopter pad.... it is a test for another system that will likely be totally different... it might have a search and track radar mount that can rotate or they might use the main AESA antennas fitted to these small boats for detection and tracking and just bolt fixed launch tubes on the deck... such a system would be excellent, but a version in a standard cargo container would be good to as that could be carried by truck or train or on a ships deck ready for launch... cable tie it down and it is ready to go... no wheels or engine or anything inside the cargo container so you could get enormous numbers of missiles in one container... connect it to a generator (or the truck or train or ships power supply) and a datalink system connecting it with the ships radar or a ground vehicle radar or a radar mounted on a train carriage to search for and track targets for the missiles... would be very cool and a good addition to most units as they are ready to fire... no ammo handling... just plug it in and power it up... stacked very efficiently already...

    So THATS WHY it took 8 years. Probably there is still a bit too early yet I think there was no other way out.

    People are so keen to believe Kievs lies... 8 years ago it was Ukrainians killing Ukrainians because they didn't want to learn to speak Ukrainian.

    Now there is a realisation that there is a strong nazi undercurrent in Ukraine and its ideology and so it is about more than not wanting to speak a different language... it is also 8 years of shelling and 8 years of demonisation from the entire west... it does not surprise me in the slightest these people might vote to join the Russian federation now... I am sure a few Kosovo Serbs would have voted to become Russian citizens if given the chance too. Doesn't make them Russians but they would prefer it to being nazis/human body parts trafficers...

    I use similar stuff to this video in my garden. Stinky, but does wonders for my plants.

    The people on this forum with Vann on ignore are not going to appreciate you posting his post again...

    Has someone who serves, you've got to be an idiot to think the military is going to record every instance of taken out equipment

    Even if they did record everything... and these days with all the EO systems in everything and the low cost of memory cards they probably could... why on earth would they publish anything at all to what is essentially their enemy... the west....

    Why let the west know the performance of Russian weapons and equipment... why let them see what works and what doesn't and how you use your weapons and when and where... that would be stupid.... especially before you have analysed it and learned some lessons for yourself from them first.

    Loose lips sink ships...

    What most people here do not understand

    Is that simply conducting regime change, killing the leadership

    And installing a puppet, as well as even creating an army

    WONT WORK

    I agree with what you are saying but Zelensky can have nothing  to do with the future of that region... I doubt the survivors will want him considering his promises to get elected and his actions since being elected.

    Is this one of miketheterrible's 6 sockpuppet accounts?

    Nope. SS is a very patriotic American, but he is rather more realistic than most and probably realises this conflct between the west and Russia was a gamble by the west to have their cake and eat it too and what they are likely to end up with is getting stabbed by the knife they are using to cut the cake because it isn't a cake it is a person and that person doesn't want to be cut up...

    NIIstal is probably salivating from all the contracts they will get,

    Hopefully they will push through some APS and anti drone systems because of this...

    What are these armor blocks, I have never seen them being used before?

    Lots of very specific shapes like a jigsaw... I would expect they are ceramic and not solid metal which would be too heavy to manhandle in pieces that size.

    It is some prefabricated stuff that you can install if not interested in keeping the buoyancy anymore.

    I am guessing ceramic with hollow parts to maintain buoyancy... otherwise they would go for much bigger boxes like the ones shown on the uparmoured BMP-3 to stop 30mm calibre rounds from the front and sides.

    I also don't think amphibious vehicles are that relevant for Russia now.

    The number of rivers, they will always be relevant... hense both Kurganets and Boomerang are amphibious...

    Kurganets is also not amphibious without buoyancy ballasts, so it kinda shows that cold war mobility is not as important now for Russia.

    The Buoyancy side bits are part of the standard armour kit... so it is clearly important still.

    If you can get amphibious capability without losing protection levels why would you not keep it?

    Amusing that the US is getting its wish of replacing Soviet era cold war equipment with US stuff is coming to pass... so buying ammo for the eastern european countries will likely cost a lot more now it will be western stuff moving forward.

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    d_taddei2
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 15 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:41 am

    Spain sends retired Aspide SAMs Mach 4 and Leopard 2A4s to Ukraine

    https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2022/06/07/spain-sends-retired-aspide-sams-mach-4-and-leopard-2a4s-to-ukraine/

    Ukraine requests Israel the purchase of Iron Dome counter artillery missile systems

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_june_2022_global_security_army_industry/ukraine_request_israel_the_purchase_of_iron_dome_counter_artillery_missile_systems.html

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:26 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Because current guns lack the range and accuracy to be very good at the role... the 76mm guns reach about 16km as do the new 57mm guns, but both would be useful against drone threats with airburst shells. The 100mm guns and 130mm guns max out at less than 30km range, so against 152mm guns on land they don't have any range advantage, though the fact that the ship is always moving is an advantage in terms of return fire.

    You don't use Corvettes and Frigates for naval gun support roles... destroyers and cruisers are generally used if they have suitable guns and the current ships don't but that is why the navy invested in the 152mm guns with the army and the army has been using 152mm and 203mm guns and also 240mm mortars with good success it seems so maybe funding will be found for 203mm guns as well.. certainly a 180km 152mm ranged shell would be useful and perhaps a 250km range 203mm gun would be valuable too... but that wont be available for a while yet.

    They are already in service (with OUR navy, obviously).


    Vulcano: 40Km in 76x62mm, 110km in 155x52mm and 120Km in 127x64mm.


    Dart/Strales: 120rpm guided shells, 20km range.

    Russian could obviously made their own version of them both or use similar ones if already developed:
    In the very end, it's just a difference of propelling systems compared to rockets based ones, guidance principle is the very same used for TOR & Pantsir..

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:42 am

    How to integrate Ukraine, without it being a futile exercise after 20 years?

    Well novorossiya, from Kharkov to Dnipro to Nikolayev and Odessa will be a tough project, spanning 15 years to rebuild and fully integrate.

    But it can be done
    -----------------------------------------
    Kiev and the rest of 15 million person land locked Ukraine however, not sure.

    Integrating it could cost Russia more problems, with ukro politicians like kruschev wanting to reward the hohols, or like Lenin, we cannot allow leaching of Russia by impoverished Kiev

    It's better to keep Kiev out of Russia, let them be landlocked, with 15 million, but we need to bleed the VSU hard, in order that we come to an agreement with a general who will want to run Kiev and keep it neutral which is all that is needed

    A military occupation of Kiev, without us there, but with some drone overflights will be important

    We can send military into this new Kievan land , and inspect every quarter or so, and let them keep the Hryvnia,

    They can only trade with Belarus and Russia and the EAEU, if they violate any agreement then we grind them again

    And this is how we avoid an occupation of 100 years , having to take care of hohol problems for them

    But keeping them from NATO and the EU

    A militarily run Ukraine, by generals who are managed by us, but they are fully deindustrialized and rely on us for everything

    Food, Machinery, protection, and they provide only teraboron

    Which is basically the situation now, a demilitarized army, which has flesh , but no armor, planes, ammo, or weapons
    Serberus
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    Post  Serberus Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:11 am

    Some great footage from battle of Toshkovka
    https://t.me/boris_rozhin/53009

    Yet more trophies
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 15 43a49b10

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:21 am

    Regular wrote:
    Looks nice and tidy, definitely not something that can snag and rip off going through vegetation.

    I also don't think amphibious vehicles are that relevant for Russia now.

    Rivers Russia are facing either have unsuitable shores, or they are too strong to risk it. Best to use pontoons.
    I disagree. The failed bridging operations have only highlighted the importance of amphibians. There's just almost no chance of bridging operations going by undetected with surveillance from satellites, aircraft, drones so you need something on the far side to keep the enemy busy while you're out pontooning.

    Regular wrote:
    Kurganets is also not amphibious without buoyancy ballasts, so it kinda shows that cold war mobility is not as important now for Russia.
    The Kurganets vehicles are amphibious even without the detachable side armor panels / buoys. The Bumerang is also amphibious while the Armata should retain fording capabilities.

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    Post  Serberus Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:10 am

    Foreign mercenaries sentenced to death
    https://t.me/swodki/113087

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:30 am

    Serberus wrote:Foreign mercenaries sentenced to death
    https://t.me/swodki/113087

    Good job, now to try rest of nazis and foreigners from azovstal

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    Post  lyle6 Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:33 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Good job, now to try rest of nazis and foreigners from azovstal
    They had theirs 77 years ago. What's left is to carry out the sentence.

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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:43 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 15 Fuznsk10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 15 Scree360
    T-80´s

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    Post  Werewolf Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:48 am

    Serberus wrote:Foreign mercenaries sentenced to death
    https://t.me/swodki/113087

    I am disappointed!

    Why are they not doing it like Nürnberger trials?

    High podium like seats for the jury and judges, a section for official committee to oversee the legality of the trail with officials from China, Kazakhstan, Russia, DNR, LNR and maybe India. Another section of families who lost family members from 8 years of getting killed by Ukro-fascists.

    Transmit it real time to Eastern block, African countries, south america and Middle eastern countries. Make presence of the trails in the rest of the World while the Empire of Lies pretends like they are the good guys like always. History will write itself from this very fact. An isolated West from resources and real information a bubble like they always claimed Russia and China are. I see more Chinese and Russians fully aware of geopolitical game that is played before our eyes than anywhere in the West.

    I am really disappointed. Russians are garbage at PR, Propaganda or even marketing. That was always our Achilles heel.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:54 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Serberus wrote:Foreign mercenaries sentenced to death
    https://t.me/swodki/113087

    I am disappointed!

    Why are they not doing it like Nürnberger trials?

    High podium like seats for the jury and judges, a section for official committee to oversee the legality of the trail with officials from China, Kazakhstan, Russia, DNR, LNR and maybe India. Another section of families who lost family members from 8 years of getting killed by Ukro-fascists.

    Transmit it real time to Eastern block, African countries, south america and Middle eastern countries. Make presence of the trails in the rest of the World while the Empire of Lies pretends like they are the good guys like always. History will write itself from this very fact. An isolated West from resources and real information a bubble like they always claimed Russia and China are. I see more Chinese and Russians fully aware of geopolitical game that is played before our eyes than anywhere in the West.

    I am really disappointed. Russians are garbage at PR, Propaganda or even marketing. That was always our Achilles heel.


    Lmao that was an appetizer only

    There are thousands that are about to be brought to trial

    And foreigners from all the EU and USA which will be put to death as mercenaries
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    Post  Firebird Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:06 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:How to integrate Ukraine, without it being a futile exercise after 20 years?

    Well novorossiya, from Kharkov to Dnipro to Nikolayev and Odessa will be a tough project, spanning 15 years to rebuild and fully integrate.

    But it can be done
    -----------------------------------------
    Kiev and the rest of 15 million person land locked Ukraine however, not sure.

    Integrating it could cost Russia more problems, with ukro politicians like kruschev wanting to reward the hohols, or like Lenin, we cannot allow leaching of Russia by impoverished Kiev

    It's better to keep Kiev out of Russia, let them be landlocked, with 15 million, but we need to bleed the VSU hard, in order that we come to an agreement with a general who will want to run Kiev and keep it neutral which is all that is needed

    A military occupation of Kiev, without us there, but with some drone overflights will be important

    We can send military into this new Kievan land , and inspect every quarter or so, and let them keep the Hryvnia,

    They can only trade with Belarus and Russia and the EAEU, if they violate any agreement then we grind them again

    And this is how we avoid an occupation of 100 years , having to take care of hohol problems for them

    But keeping them from NATO and the EU

    A militarily run Ukraine, by generals who are managed by us, but they are fully deindustrialized and rely on us for everything

    Food, Machinery, protection, and they provide only teraboron

    Which is basically the situation now, a demilitarized army, which has flesh , but no armor, planes, ammo, or weapons

    I don't think the problem is Kiev. I think its Western Pukrainian areas, and some central, more rural parts.
    Kiev has basically been Russian speaking but has had an influx of radicalised trash. Radicalised by America and its GATO gimps.

    The Western regions added post WW2 are the problem area.

    I believe the whole former Ukraine should be taken. With some areas absorbed into Russia, and Western bits demilitarised, de Nazified and left to suffer if they don't get their act together. When else will Russia get an opportunity to clear up the mess of the last 30 to 100 years. Its not like they'll lose any "benefits" from the West. Russia controlling the Western border and any federal states borders.

    Kiev becoming part of a Ru friendly Malorossiya and maybe even Russia proper when cleaned up and deradicalised affirms what it really is, not what America tried to poison it into becoming. The Mother City of the Rus, part of the Russian world, and certainly not a vassal of Washington controlled GATO

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:35 am

    It has certainly lit the International 'how dare they' fuse. This is the Daily Mail Online. Wait till an American gets sentenced, they'll threaten nukes Laughing

    International fury as two Brits Shaun Pinner, 48, and Aiden Aslin, 28, are sentenced to death by Russian separatists after they joined the Ukrainian army and were captured during the siege of Mariupol

    Brits Shaun Pinner, 48, and Aiden Aslin, 28, were captured in Ukraine in April
    The so-called supreme court of the DPR issued the death sentences on Thursday
    Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim has also been sentenced, reports said
    The men were accused of being 'mercenaries' after fighting with Kyiv's troops
    The trio are being held by Russian forces in the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR)
    The three men said they will appeal the decision, Tass reported. The court is not internationally recognised, the BBC reported
    Foreign Secretary Liz Truss condemned the death sentences as a 'sham judgment with absolutely no legitimacy'. No10 said it was 'deeply concerned'

    By Chris Jewers and Will Stewart for MailOnline and Pa

    Published: 15:09, 9 June 2022 | Updated: 16:26, 9 June 2022

    Two British men captured by Russian forces in Ukraine have been sentenced to death and are set to face a firing squad after a sham three-day trial, sparking outrage from the UK and its Western allies.

    Shaun Pinner, 48, and Aiden Aslin, 28, were sentenced by the so-called supreme court of the Russian-backed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) on Thursday - weeks after they were captured during the siege of Mariupol.

    The men were accused of being 'mercenaries' after fighting with Ukrainian troops, with the judge saying they were guilty of two war crimes amounting to 17 and seven years. He said the 'aggregated penalty' for the men was death.

    A third man, Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim, was convicted alongside them.

    The three men said they will appeal the decision, Tass reported. The court is not internationally recognised, the BBC said.

    Foreign Secretary Liz Truss condemned the death sentences as a 'sham judgment with absolutely no legitimacy'.

    'I utterly condemn the sentencing of Aiden Aslin and Shaun Pinner held by Russian proxies in eastern Ukraine,' the minister tweeted. 'They are prisoners of war. This is a sham judgment with absolutely no legitimacy. My thoughts are with the families. We continue to do everything we can to support them.'

    The UK Government said it was 'deeply concerned' by the development.

    A No 10 spokesman said: 'We have said continually that prisoners of war shouldn't be exploited for political purposes. You will know that under the Geneva Convention prisoners of war are entitled to combatant immunity and they should not be prosecuted for participation in hostilities.

    'So we will continue to work with the Ukrainian authorities to try and secure the release of any British nationals who were serving in the Ukrainian armed forces and who are being held as prisoners of war.'

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    Post  nomadski Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:38 am

    About these foreign fighters , what does Geneva convention say about them ? I think that spies in civilian clothes are usually shot . But were these fighters in Ukrainian uniform ? Fighting alongside them ? Still it is better to have deterrent against foreign fighters continuing to join in . If there are many , and numbers coming in , getting larger , then punishment can be higher and quicker . Also loosing a few in this way , still means plenty left to bargain for ,  against their governments " lethal aid " . But if fewer are coming in , then punishments can be delayed , still a bargaining chip against " lethal aid " . The relatives of these poor misguided souls or war criminals , should see their MP , and push for stop to " lethal aid " , in exchange for their release ? Or reduction of sentence ?


    Last edited by nomadski on Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Vann7 Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:41 am

    Backman wrote:Has anyone heard of Spaces ? It's a conversation platform on Twitter. There's some good ones about the war. For example https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1yoKMWzoqOpJQ

    A guy from India took the mic and said that the US is ready to turn on India. He watches this closely and he says that there's already rumors about Al Queda terrorism rearing it's head. He was basically saying that this is a war between the Anglosphere/west and everyone else. India cant afford for Russia to lose. Russia won't lose but it has to meet some strategic objectives too.


    Not only india , but china too , the collective west , don't accept competition , or any nation to develop
    on its own ,without being a subordinate off them. So India ,CHina , IRAN ,Brazil, Pakistan and even Turkey will be on hit list . If Russia defeated in ukraine , then NATO without doubts will focus their attention on China , then in India next. while israel taking down iran.

    So for india , it will be against its interest that not only russia defeated , but china too.. all major powers not part of the collective west , need to get together to survive and even create an alternative to the western system. Even in extreme situations ,For india it will be better to lose a few km to china on is borders , than to lose its entire territory , because what NATO did to syria , they can do even more easily in india , that have so many 5th column of muslims in their territory.
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    Post  Vann7 Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:52 am

    Ned86 wrote:

    I am wondering will you start complaining about russian optics in this Mi-35 video ?


    Believe it or not..

    But wars is not just about firing bullets and missiles..
    Information war is extremely important too , it can help your military ,to convince your enemies
    to stop fighting , and give up early , or even surrender. So the higher is the quality of your videos destruction of enemies positions and hardware , the better the impact on demoralizing your enemies
    into continuation of fighting.

    So defeating the enemy alone , some might say is good enough .. but if you show and document
    with videos , their destruction , their morale can be significantly downgraded , for those still alive ,
    so they refuse to continue fighting..

    the video i posted earlier of azerbaijan strike drones , smashing armenian soldiers in trenches ,
    showing them literary flying like superman ,and bodies in pieces , that video alone , demoralized
    the armenians so much ,that was the start ,of when the tide was turned against armenia..

    even russian soldiers operating tors air defenses where destroyed.. and it was fully documented in video ,when trying to hide in a house.. this was embarrasing for russian army and this damage of the morale of sodiers can multiply the effect of defeat on your adversaries. and ends wars more quickly,
    as it was the case of armenian conflict. what forced armenia to surrender? it was azebaijan massive destruction of armenian and nagorno fighters by well documented slaughter of azerbaijan strike drones.

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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:22 pm

    Four fighters of the 5th generation Su-57 were used in Ukraine in a single information network.
    https://topwar.ru/197484-na-ukraine-primenili-chetverku-istrebitelej-5-go-pokolenija-su-57-v-edinoj-informacionnoj-seti.html?yrwinfo=1654791559131435-778362278245308779-sas3-0737-9f4-sas-l7-balancer-8080-BAL-2292

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    Post  Arrow Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:25 pm

    T 80BV
    https://t.me/milinfolive/84788

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    Post  kvs Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:31 pm

    Taking the territory from Kharkov to Odessa along the east and south will neutralize the part of Ukraine outside of the special
    far western part. The economic wealth is concentrated in this band. If Ukraine had a poor economy before the start of the
    special operation, it will have almost nothing left. So Russia can play it smart and not engage in occupation of parts that
    are worthless and only a source of local resistance. I have to admit that the central part including Kiev and Sumy and
    spanning to Zhitomir are not going to be like Kherson. But these regions are not viable and the malcontents will migrate
    to the west.

    The only thing is to exert enough pressure to prevent a proxy regime being installed in Kiev and this poor rump part of the
    country. I think that is easier than trying to absorb these regions in the short run. In the long run they need to be
    absorbed because the Ukraine project is criminal and will always be anti-Russian. But the far west needs to be forced
    into Poland to prevent a proxy state that can wash the hands of NATzO from direct responsibility for biological and
    nuclear attacks.

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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:39 pm

    Since everyone asks “what’s the Russian air force doing?”
    https://thedreizinreport.com/2022/06/09/since-everyone-asks-whats-the-russian-air-force-doing/

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:57 pm

    Vann7: that Tor was in a shed, and they utilized multiple drones and an Israeli suicide drone to take out that non functioning Tor. That should first tell you how feared the Tor is and how full of shit you are.

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:14 pm

    Slaviansk front moving hella fast again, after a lull in activity. Rotation of forces and resupplies happened I guess.

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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:39 pm

    https://sonar21.com/operation-z-whose-quagmire/
    Good article by Johnson. Alternative title: If you believe your own shit you are doomed to fail.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/it-became-clear-what-kherson-zaporozhye-will-give-russia/#
    Energy, fertile land and a lot of other stuff. Throw in a few million inhabitants and all the construction material being needed in the next few years. Russias real economy is growing.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/what-to-do-with-former-ukraine/
    The last point of the author is close to my own assessment.

    The most stupid thing would be to "give" the western regions to Poland. Uncle Sam would come in, declare it the "free Ukraine" and keep using it as proxy, shooting missiles at Kiev, Odessa and so on.

    Keeping some "rump state" would be a breeding ground for an insurgency, even if it never will be on the level we saw in Chechnya in the 90´s and 2000´s.

    You don´t let a tumor in a body, hoping it will never spread again. That happened in the 50´s.

    Keep on fighting. Clear the Donbass, liberate Dnjepropetrovsk, Kharkov and the rest of Zaporozhye. Then move on to Nikolayev and Odessa. But don´t stop there. Liberate the rest of the East, then move to the Centre, the north-western parts and last but not least the West. Break the whole fake country up, integrate the regions into Russia (could be done in stages, with different levels of autonomy), eradicate "Ukrainism" once and for all.

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    Post  Kiko Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:50 pm

    Nuremberg trials will be held to the following:

    "FACT CONFIRMED": "AZOVSTAL" CAUGHT THE HIGH RANKS OF NATO. DETAILS RECALLED MAJOR GENERAL

    Did US, British officers and NATO instructors surrender from Azovstal? The information was commented by the Hero of Russia, Major General Sergey Lipovoy.

    Together with the Ukrainian military, US General Eric Olson, British Lieutenant Colonel John Bailey and four NATO military instructors surrendered from the Azovstal metallurgical plant, according to a number of media. There is no official confirmation yet. To what extent this information corresponds to reality, the chairman of the Presidium of the All-Russian organization "Officers of Russia", Hero of Russia, Major General Sergei Lipovoy told Tsargrad.

    He pointed out that the presence of foreign mercenaries at the Azovstal plant in Mariupol is already an officially confirmed fact. As for foreign high-ranking officials, their presence at the plant was confirmed by radio intercepts.

    Sergey Lipovoy also connects the attempts of the West, American representatives and various structures to get them out of there at any cost with the presence of NATO officers. In his opinion, it was for them that the Red Cross and others were sent. The Russian military gave the go-ahead for the exit, under their strict control they provided humanitarian corridors, but no one came out.

    I did not go out for a simple reason: because the "Azov" * themselves took everyone hostage - both the generals and those instructors.

    Lipovoy explained that the Ukrainian militants were well aware that if these generals and instructors were released, they would no longer have any trump cards. And then they will be subject to immediate destruction.

    The fact that today we are witnessing the complete surrender of everyone who was hiding underground there, these are not Veseushniks. These are all war criminals. War criminals, even those who were there under the flags of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, those who were under the flags of nationalist battalions, under the flag of "Azov"*, these are no longer prisoners, these are criminals who should all be judged,
    Major General emphasized in a conversation with Tsargrad.

    And the fact that among those who surrendered are an American general and NATO instructors is a significant trump card in Russia's sleeve. This is another proof that, although NATO has not declared war on Russia, representatives of the military bloc are involved in the conflict with Russia, said Sergey Lipovoy.

    * Detachment of special purpose "Azov" - an organization banned on the territory of Russia.

    https://tsargrad.tv/news/fakt-podtverzhdjonnyj-na-azovstali-popalis-vysokie-chiny-nato-detali-napomnil-general-major_552192#teaserId=12062623&teaserType=mobileNews

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