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    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2

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    Post  TMA1 Sat Nov 04, 2023 5:44 pm

    Haha yes! And yeah it is the ruskie U2 and marrying that with the radar mapping pod is incredible. Has .5m to 1m squared accuracy and can scan out up to 300km. That thing can fly high and safe while scanning the ground. I think it can transfer its data so commanders can see it in real time.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:41 am

    Safe being a relative term... not safe near S-300 or S-400 or S-350.

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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:49 am

    and can scan out up to 300km.
    Range could be greater from 20+km.
    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2 - Page 34 32421910

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:16 pm

    just to reply to your post for sake of civilized discussion Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil  - decision is made so no AM-18 will be considered for pilot's role. PP-2000 seem to be already sent to Urine front  anyways.



    GarryB wrote:I think you are ignoring the fact that when fired through a much shorter barrel the 5.45mm is not the same round going through a rifle or LMG barrel... the muzzle blast is much bigger, even with a decent flash hider attachment, and the shorter barrel reduces velocity and accuracy to the point where you are dealing with heavier recoil and muzzle activity for no great advantage in performance.


    higher energy an dflat trjaecotyor and the same ammo as in every military unit is advantageous isnt it?



    Body armour that stops the special 9mm Russian armor piercing rounds will probably also stop 5.45mm AP rounds from a short barrel too... in fact your best performing round is probably the 9x39mm in the AP model... low velocity but very heavy projectile.

    9x39mm slow and exotic for special purposes afaik special forces have different shooting skills training then average pilot isnt it? .

    as for energy. Energy is proportional to the square of velocity and linear to mass.

    3,6g  bullet for 5,45 and v0=750m/s (AM-17) data - is over 1000j

    16g 9x39mm bullet with 290m/s is 680j ish.




    The subsonic 5.45mm round is about 80 grain, the 7.62x39mm subsonic round is about a 193 grain bullet, while the 9x39mms subsonic round is about 265 grain.... they all travel at the same speed.)

    no they dont 5,45mm is not subsonic but travels with  750/ms





    The point is that you have to forget about computer games and war movies... the firearm the pilots and crew carry is something you carry for 99% of your career and never use.... during war time your chance of using it is higher but it is still your job to do other things and not use your weapon... the weapon is a self defence thing while you wait for help to arrive. Traditionally it was a pistol but a pistol is actually rather hard to use effectively and has very very limited range. A submachinegun is slightly bigger and rather more accurate and effective and has a reasonable range, and is much easier to learn to use effectively and accurately than a pistol while not being as big and heavy as a rifle.


    on the contrary this is my point. Since regular pistol is not an option anymore then the question what kind of pdw to choose.   Flat trajectory bulled with better armor stopping is better for person whiteout special shooting skills.

    weight? As for wright pp-2000 1,7kg AM-17- 2.5kg.  





    Note, in terms of stopping power the 9x39mm does not require long barrel length for effect... it relies on bullet weight for effect so even a small compact weapon is effective. In comparison the 5.45mm relies on velocity for effect so the longer the barrel the better.

    9x39mm bullet was was never an option considered. PP-2000 or AM (at the beginning it was created for this purpose as well) or PPK-19
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:50 am

    higher energy an dflat trjaecotyor and the same ammo as in every military unit is advantageous isnt it?

    In a rifle bullet yes, but traditionally with pistol bullets there are different views on the subject.

    If flat trajectory was important then the best pistol round Russia ever had would be the 7.62x25mm, but that was replaced by the 9x18mm round.

    If flat trajectory mattered in the west the 45 cal US rounds would not be considered.

    The point is that out to the distances pistol rounds are effective their trajectory is relatively flat anyway.

    9x39mm slow and exotic for special purposes afaik special forces have different shooting skills training then average pilot isnt it? .

    It is a round that does not require a long barrel to be effective, making it a good PDW round.

    as for energy. Energy is proportional to the square of velocity and linear to mass.

    Energy is deceiving because higher energy does not equate to anything at all... a needle going at two kilometres per second will punch cleanly through a human target and continue on its way retaining most of that high energy as it goes. A bowling ball hitting you at 200m/s would probably kill you no matter where it hit you because it would remove extremity body parts or a torso hit would be devastating because of its size and weight.

    3,6g  bullet for 5,45 and v0=750m/s (AM-17) data - is over 1000j

    16g 9x39mm bullet with 290m/s is 680j ish.

    Those are figures at the muzzle of the weapons... a 300m both bullets would probably be travelling at a similar speed to each other meaning the heavier round has more energy.

    As a self defence weapon you are not likely to be shooting at anything that is more than 150m away.

    no they dont 5,45mm is not subsonic but travels with  750/ms

    I was comparing subsonic rounds and the subsonic version of the 5.45mm round has an 80 grain bullet and leaves the muzzle of an AK-74 at subsonic speeds to make a suppressor actually quiet. The subsonic 5.45mm round and the subsonic 7.62x39mm round and the subsonic 9x39mm round all travel at roughly the same speed but the different calibres and different cartridge cases allow different projectile sizes, where the larger calibre rounds are more effective.


    on the contrary this is my point. Since regular pistol is not an option anymore then the question what kind of pdw to choose.   Flat trajectory bulled with better armor stopping is better for person whiteout special shooting skills.

    weight? As for wright pp-2000 1,7kg AM-17- 2.5kg.  

    Not really as simple as that... you need to determine the sort of targets the aircrew will be encountering and at what distances, and also the fact that you might be deep behind enemy lines you want a relatively quiet weapon that does not attract attention like an assault rifle cartridge might.

    The ammo for the 9mm is more compact even if it probably isn't lighter and 9mm stick magazines would be easier to carry than 5,45 ammo magazines.

    Firearms for crew and pilots is more like the yellow and black stripes on a bumble bee... most of the time they will try to escape and evade and not draw attention to themselves by taking on the local forces on their own.

    If the enemy are firing small arms at you when you come down it really doesn't matter what you are carrying.

    The PP-2000 appears to be what they want, as awkward as it looks, the videos I posted seem to show it is easy to strip and look after and seems to be a good little weapon. They have a range of specialist 9mm anti armour rounds that seem to be rather effective too, but even the best body armour has a chest plate with the rest of the body only lightly protected with layers of kevlar or armamide fibre which most rounds should penetrate anyway.

    9x39mm bullet was was never an option considered. PP-2000 or AM (at the beginning it was created for this purpose as well) or PPK-19

    Well actually there is a 9x39mm version of the AM...  the AMB-17.... here

    But then the MA could be an alternative too or the SR-3M which was originally called MA too... small assault rifle...

    The OTs12 and OTs14 are small sized assault rifles too. (OTs12 is better known as Groza.

    There was also an old SMG called GROM. If you imagine an AK-74U with the stock removed and the pistol grip moved forward to where the magazine well is, with the magazine going up through the pistol grip. The weapon itself had chamber inserts and different bolts and could fire any pistol ammo in 9mm from 9mm short (9x17) through 9x18,9x19, 9x21... there was even a rather powerful 9x30 pistol round developed for it, but it didn't go anywhere.

    It seems pretty clear they wanted a 9x19mm calibre weapon, but then they have a wide range of options for that too.
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    Post  franco Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:20 am

    They began to create a stratospheric strike and reconnaissance complex for the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation . It will consist of an aircraft, suspended containers with radars, electronic reconnaissance systems and optical-electronic stations. The new complex will be able to transmit target coordinates in real time to ground-based missile systems, artillery, naval and aviation ships. This will significantly increase the effectiveness of our missile strikes, experts are sure.

    View from the stratosphere

    In the interests of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the development of a new reconnaissance and strike complex (RUK) has begun, sources in the military department told Izvestia and confirmed by interlocutors in the defense-industrial complex. The new product is based on an aircraft capable of performing missions at high altitudes, including in the stratosphere (a layer of the atmosphere located at an altitude of 11–50 km - Izvestia).

    According to Izvestia’s interlocutors, the aircraft will have a modular configuration. Depending on the mission, it will be possible to install radar, electronic or optical-electronic reconnaissance systems on board. The new product will be capable of detecting targets in real time both on the battlefield and in the operational rear and providing target designations to carriers of precision weapons, artillery, aviation and naval ships.

    It is planned that the RUK equipment will include suspended reconnaissance containers created as part of the Sych development work, sources told Izvestia.

    Now the M-55 Geophysics high-altitude aircraft is confirming the possibility of operating suspended containers at high altitudes. Based on the test results, they will be finalized. The possibility of transmitting information in real time to the ground is also being tested. Photos of the aircraft at the time of testing have already appeared on social networks.

    The M-55 “Geophysicist” was not chosen by chance as a platform for testing reconnaissance equipment for the new RUK. It is capable of rising into the stratosphere - to a height of up to 20 km. Initially, it was intended to intercept high-altitude reconnaissance balloons regularly launched by the United States to photograph objects in the USSR. But in the 1980s, these tasks were no longer necessary, and the aircraft were reclassified as reconnaissance and research aircraft.

    Conducting reconnaissance from high altitudes is a very promising direction, Honored Test Pilot Igor Malikov told Izvestia.

    “This is constant monitoring of space,” he explained. — You need to know where the enemy is, where he is moving, where he is amassing forces. In the current situation, this is very necessary knowledge so that we can respond instantly. The difficulty of conducting such reconnaissance depends on the equipment you have. Firstly, this is radar equipment. At one time we made such reconnaissance aircraft - the M-17, which had a side-view antenna that scanned enemy territory.

    In modern armed conflicts, it is important to reduce the time from detection to destruction of a target to a minimum, military expert Dmitry Kornev told Izvestia.

    “Aircraft operating in the stratosphere will primarily provide targets for ground forces missilemen, ” he believes. — The same MLRS “Smerch”, “Tornado-S” with precision-guided ammunition, as well as missile brigades with “Iskander”. This complex can fire two types of missiles - ballistic, which will provide minimal flight time, and cruise, which fly more slowly. The latter are suitable for destroying stationary objects. Front-line aviation will also receive relevant targets, including helicopter units armed with high-precision LMUR missiles.

    According to the expert, the main consumers of information from the created complex will be Su-34 and Su-34M bombers. They can use not only high-precision missiles, but also high-precision bombs with unified planning and correction modules.

    In Long-Range Aviation, target designation from the RUK will increase the effectiveness of the MiG-31 with the Kinzhal hypersonic systems, the expert believes.

    “In this case, it will take a matter of minutes to destroy a remote target, ” noted Dmitry Kornev.

    In addition, ships with Kalibr cruise missiles, and in the future also with hypersonic Zircons, will use RUK target designations. Also, new aircraft could patrol large areas and seas. For example, areas where Western missile submarines or aircraft carrier strike groups patrol.

    Three container options

    All equipment of the new reconnaissance complex will fit into three containers with different reconnaissance loads. The UKR-RT version is designed for electronic reconnaissance, UKR-OE for optical-electronic reconnaissance, and UKR-RL for radar reconnaissance.

    It is known that the development of UKR-RT began in the late 2000s. This equipment is capable of detecting and accurately determining the coordinates and technical characteristics of targets such as communication and information transmission systems, radar stations, and control lines for unmanned aerial vehicles.

    It will be able to detect radar radiation, the operation of radio communication centers and even cell phones at a distance of hundreds of kilometers. Test flights with the UKR-RT container installed under the fuselage were also carried out by Su-34 front-line bombers.

    The UKR-RL electronic reconnaissance container with the fourth-generation Pika-M radar has completed state tests and has already been tested in a real situation , Vladimir Maksimov, general director of the Kulon Research Institute, previously stated. It can work at any time of the day and even in heavily cloudy conditions.

    UKR-OE containers “extract” information by receiving and analyzing radiation in the ultraviolet, visible and infrared ranges, which are created by reconnaissance objects.

    The RUK equipment accurately determines the coordinates, type and other parameters of the found object.

    https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1601565/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/vysokoe-razmeshchenie-armiia-rf-poluchit-stratosfernyi-kompleks-poiska-tcelei?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

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    Post  TMA1 Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:17 am

    Well that answers my questions about the new su-34 pods. Thry can detect targets as well as transmit coordinates for a strike to other varied weapon systems in real time. That is awesome. Neat to see the m-55 put to good use. Frankly it can utilize the pods better than the su-34 in some circumstances.

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    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:20 pm

    The MiG-31 can fly at even higher altitudes than the M-55. It could be turned into a reconnaissance aircraft if they wanted to.

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    Post  Vympel Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:26 pm

    https://x.com/MrFrantarelli/status/1721608535883002166?s=20

    "A new transport aircraft with a carrying capacity of one hundred tons is being designed - IL-100.

    It was decided that it would be assembled at Aviastar-SP JSC and that preparations for the construction of a new production building would begin in the near future. "

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    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:36 pm

    This means an aircraft with a carrying capacity somewhere in between the Il-76 and An-124.

    Perhaps a twin PD-35 engine powered Il-76 replacement aircraft?

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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 09, 2023 1:57 am

    Wow... lots of good news all at once.

    Very glad they are going to be using the M-17RM finally... I would think a brand new composite version with longer thinner wings and new engines could fly higher than the 20km of the older model...

    If it carries its equipment in pods does that mean it can carry more than one pod at a time?

    If there are three pods does that mean it could carry different pods under each wing and a third pod under the belly of the aircraft?

    The main advantage of the M-55 would be its endurance and range but I see no reason why an Su-34 or MiG-31 couldn't also carry such pods when needed.

    I would add Tu-22M3 aircraft for the electronics pod for long range middle of nowhere intel gathering... it could certainly carry all three pods...

    This means an aircraft with a carrying capacity somewhere in between the Il-76 and An-124.

    More precisely I would say it would be an aircraft between the An-22 (80 tons) and the early model An-124s (120 tons), so it is an improved An-22 which was a rather good aircraft that was quite popular.

    I suspect they might start with a four engined version just so they can get it operational faster, but I would also agree that eventually a twin engined PD-35 model would be the direction it is heading.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Nov 09, 2023 3:07 am

    M55 endurance is more than 6 hours at close to max altitude

    That's what you want for sure in a recon aircraft

    Mig31 is not built to loiter over an area slowly

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:41 pm

    Any ideas?

    Zlatti71
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    Russia's Long-Range Aviation will receive brand new fighters next year, Long-Range Aviation Commander Sergey Kobylash said.

    We have a big plan to modernise and receive new aircraft next year. They will be completely new aircraft, based on new principles, with new aerodynamic and combat qualities. Therefore, I hope that at the next debriefing we will be able to report on what this equipment is and how it already fulfils the tasks within the Long-Range Aviation Command.

    @ukraine_watch

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    Post  Mir Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:04 pm

    Russia's Long-Range Aviation doesn't have any "fighters" as we understand it. He is probably referring to the PAK-DA which should make an appearance very soon.

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    Post  Hole Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:49 pm

    If we take into consideration the quality of the translation this could also mean new hypersonic missiles.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:14 am

    We have a big plan to modernise and receive new aircraft next year. They will be completely new aircraft, based on new principles, with new aerodynamic and combat qualities.

    Two separate statements... they are going to modernise their existing planes and buy new ones (the former will be upgrading Tu-22, Tu-95, Tu-160, while the latter will be new Tu-160s). The second comment suggests they will be revealing the PAK DA perhaps?

    Regarding the new recon strike system (RUK) they are talking about high altitude platforms and they are testing the M-55, but the M-55 is not a new aircraft, so it could be the gap filler that is used for testing while in the background they work on something more suitable.

    At the very least an upgraded M-55 design... perhaps with longer thinner forward swept wings would improve lift performance and made of new lighter composite materials would allow better performance too... and last but not least new jet engines designed to allow supercruising would be very efficient for such a role because even for a subsonic aircraft a supercruising jet engine will generate good high levels of dry thrust at high altitude, allowing it to fly much higher than something like a turbofan which would choke on a lack of air to pull through the engine.

    Of course that article mentioned heights up to 50km, so they might be entertaining the use of airships.

    Those saying it would be too vulnerable ignore that must current weapon systems can't operate at that height, and the ones that do are huge like THAAD which would make them easier to attack with self defence missiles. Their new thrust vectoring AAM like the R-73M2 should be able to be used in such a case, and a next generation all thrust vectoring missile with minimal fins and stabilisers optimised for internal carriage would be useful too.

    At 50km solar panels become much more reliable... no clouds in the way at that altitude so you get rather more reliable current.

    For naval use a 3-4km long antenna cable would allow ELF (extremely low frequency) communications with submerged submarines...

    Being made of carbon fibre and various composite materials you could have MAD sensors that could be lowered below the aircraft well away from the metal content like motors etc for a nice clean view of the earths magnetic field...

    The top surface could be made flat for the launch and recovery of drones that operate around the airship depending on the altitude it operates.

    Ironically if Russia wants an equivalent to the AC-130 then having guns mounted on an airship would be rather interesting.

    Make the weapons low velocity howitzer type weapons with large HE payloads per shot... ie 23 x 115mm rounds instead of 23 x 152mm rounds because by the time they reach the ground they wont be moving very fast anyway.

    Edit: Actually it does not state that the platform for carrying these three pods needs to be any specific platform so it might be M-55 at 20km or MiG-31 at 25km or maybe MiG-41 at 35km, or perhaps an airship for 50km. The point is that they are pods and can be carried by a range of platform types and their new technology and capacity to build low drag low weight aircraft is impressive... some sort of very long winged flying wing drone with enormous forward swept wings of very low mass but enormous fuel capacity and the ability to carry all three pods in tandem arrangement along its centreline... with, perhaps targeting pods and communication pods under its outer portion wing pods or perhaps built in t the lower surface of the aircraft could be used as a dedicated unmanned platform that can fly at say 30km altitude all day long and might descend to 10km altitude to refuel every other day or something.

    A small nuclear reactor generating power for the next 20 years might power electric drive propulsion and all the electronics on board... designed to shut down the reactor in case of problems with a heavily armoured section for the reactor in an otherwise all electric aircraft.
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    Post  Hole Wed Dec 20, 2023 12:26 pm

    A few small modifications an those pods (recce and ECM) could be used by the Il-76.
    Very good for peacetime recon, at least. Could also be used as standoff jammers.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:34 am

    Greetings and may your God be with you.

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    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2 - Page 34 Empty The Ministry of Defense announced the receipt of new aircraft for long-range aviation

    Post  Kiko Tue Jan 02, 2024 10:21 am

    The Ministry of Defense announced the receipt of new aircraft for long-range aviation, 01.02.2024.

    Ministry of Defense: in 2024, long-range aviation will receive new combat aircraft.

    In 2024, Russian long-range aviation will receive new aircraft, said commander Lieutenant General Sergei Kobylash. His words were published on the Ministry of Defense website.

    “These will be completely new aircraft, based on new principles, with new aerodynamic and combat qualities,” he said.

    The ministry named the main tasks for long-range aviation as maintaining a high level of combat readiness, combat training, serviceability of aircraft and weapons, and mastering new and modernized military equipment.

    https://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/65935fe69a7947f2cd3b3ca8

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 03, 2024 6:34 am

    Well if it is part of the new recon system perhaps it is a very big UAV for carrying those pods like that Sukhoi UAV they showed models of some time ago.

    This is an image of the model shown:

    VVS Russian Airforce Force: News #2 - Page 34 S-62-i10

    With new composite materials and an extra wing for added lift... perhaps forward swept slightly so spanwise flow moves in to the wing root instead of out to the wing tip and creating enormous high drag vortexes, and of course suitable engines they might be able to make a drone that could carry several pods at one time to very high altitudes for very long periods of time.

    It would not need to be fast and flying very high would make it a difficult target for most anti air weapons...

    Composites would allow longer thinner stronger wings to generate more lift without a lot of weight, and because of the design you could have a pod on the wing between the front fuselages and another pod below the engines, so the two pods would not interrupt the sideways view for each pod... perhaps even carry two of the same pod to deal with more targets perhaps?

    Such a new drone might be the new aircraft based on new principals and new aerodynamic and combat qualities...

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