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    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:01 pm

    Sukhoi prepares production of the first samples of the Checkmate fighter

    https://aviation21.ru/suxoj-gotovit-proizvodstvo-pervyx-obrazcov-istrebitelya-checkmate/

    Patent for the tail stabs, thanks to Letun and Flateric

    https://new.fips.ru/registers-doc-view/fips_servlet?DB=RUPAT&DocNumber=2806135&TypeFile=html

    More news of the last days here

    https://t.me/s/rostecru

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    Post  Swgman_BK Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:42 pm

    I hope the VKS is forming new regiments with that aircraft. wrote:

    VKS is not interested. Its a private UAC project the Su75. Just like the Mig-35. I personally dont blame the VKS either..I would opt for a twin engine Su75 with enhanced stealth capabilities, but the current Su75 is a budget Su57 for low budget air forces which isnt the Russian Airforce. I see the Russian airforce buying it if did VTOL like the F35-C but the current carrier is expected to get permanently shelved somewhere around 2030-2035 at which point Russia wont have an Aircraft carrier (They had a total of 5 once with 4 nuclear powered ones until they sold 2 and scrapped 2)

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:37 pm

    To Swgman....

    Where did you get the information that VVS is not interested ?
    The Ministry of Defense of Russia has not issued any official statement confirming your story.

    Comparing the MiG-29 with the Su-75 is like comparing an ass and an eye.
    The MiG-29 flew for the first time 46 years ago and then fell into oblivion in the 1990s and never (in larger numbers) experienced sub-variants and modernized examples like the Su-30/34/35S.
    There is almost half a century between those two planes and the Su-75 has not even flown yet.
    The MiG-29 is a long forgotten aircraft, unfortunately.
    Although the Su-75 is a single-engine aircraft, which I don't like, it is still an aircraft in which Russia invests money.
    As solid as the F-16 was despite being a single engine, the F-35 is as heavy as an elephant, and is at least a third heavier than the F-16 at takeoff weight.
    Take a 1,200-kilogram car and a 1,800-kilogram car.
    No matter how powerful an engine you put in a 1,800-kilogram car, the 1,200-kilogram one will be faster in the corners.
    A single engine F-35 will NEVER have the flight performance of an F-16.

    And how bad the F-35 is....
    The F-35 is too heavy for a single-engine configuration.
    For example, the basic Su-27 has two engines that have a dry thrust totaling 150.44 KN of thrust, while they give 254.2 KN on afterburn.
    The F-35's F135-PW-100 engine provides 125KN dry thrust and 190KN with afterburning.
    The maximum permissible mass of the Su-27 is greater than the F-35 by only 500 kg; 29,900 kg vs 30,400 kg.
    I'm not a fan of the Su-75, not at all, but I haven't read anywhere officially that the Russians have given up on it.

    The Americans did not ban the sale of the F-22 for no reason, and the NGAD will almost certainly not be sold to anyone either.
    As far as I'm concerned, the priority should and must remain the Su-57, and the "crown" will again be the PAK-DP.
    Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:14 pm

    This aircraft (Su-75) has potential and it is likely that it will be also ordered by russian air force, if the orders from foreign buyers will finance the development and testing phases.

    As far as the Mig35, they can be ready now and do not require additional development testing.

    Furthermore a Mig-29k upgraded to Mig35 standard is the only carrier borne fighter that can be produced now, unless sukhoi makes a Su-57 derivative which is carrier capable.

    There is also the option of a STOVL /VTOL from Yak that could be deployed in the 40000 tons
    Helicopter carriers which are being built now in Kerch.

    Andrei Martyanov also mentioned it in a post in his blog a couple of days ago.

    https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2023/11/let-military-porn-rule.html

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:29 pm

    To Rodion...

    There is nothing of that now...
    I am afraid that the current US ban and the threat of sanctions will still harm Russia's MIC in the long run.
    Who is now allowed (who is not scared) to buy airplanes or air defense systems from Russia; maybe India, possibly Algeria and Iran.
    The only chance is for what we all want to happen, which is the decline of the influence and importance of the USA. Until that happens, there is no military equipment from Russia either.
    Serbia ordered two more divisions of the "Pantsir" system, Krasukha EW system and 4 more new Mi-35s from Russia. And nothing, we can forget that.
    China will profit from everything..

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    Post  Atmosphere Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:46 pm

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    Post  TMA1 Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:47 pm

    I disagree and think the su-75 could truly offer something different and valuable to the Russian military. Not only is it built at the lower limit in size for a fully featured stealthy aircraft, it will so offer extensive commonality with its big brother the su-57. Every aspect I have seen so far about it impresses me. The underbelly and side bays are brilliant. The air intake that splits around and under the cockpit is brilliant. The dog tooth corners of the intake acting as vortex generators along the airframe are brilliant. Thr diamond shaping we have seen recently is brilliant. It is clearly more stealthy than the su-57 and yet if all goes according to plan it will be a supercruiser with surprisingly long legs. And on top of it all it still has enough room in its three bays to deal serious damage to its enemies.

    I am just a layman and what I am about to say might seem quaint but the physiognomy of flight is real. If the plane looks good, it will fly good. The checkmate is stunning and imo a revelation and often the greatest fighters ever made give this kind of intuitive and dynamic impression. Russia is doing stuff aeronautically that nobody else is doing. Everyone else is just attempting to copy our stealth fighters. Russian aircraft have a soul all their own and that uniqueness is why I love them so much.

    If sukhoi truly succeeds in making this righter without major delays it could eventually trump even fears of CAATSA. It may well become the next mig-21 of our time.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:52 pm

    TMA1 wrote:I disagree and think the su-75 could truly offer something different and valuable to the Russian military.  Not only is it built at the lower limit in size for a fully featured stealthy aircraft, it will so offer extensive commonality with its big brother the su-57. Every aspect I have seen so far about it impresses me. The underbelly and side bays are brilliant. The air intake that splits around and under the cockpit is brilliant. The dog tooth corners of the intake acting as vortex generators along the airframe are brilliant. Thr diamond shaping we have seen recently is brilliant. It is clearly more stealthy than the su-57 and yet if all goes according to plan it will be a supercruiser with surprisingly long legs. And on top of it all it still has enough room in its three bays to deal serious damage to its enemies.

    I am just a layman and what I am about to say might seem quaint but the physiognomy of flight is real. If the plane looks good, it will fly good. The checkmate is stunning and imo a revelation and often the greatest fighters ever made give this kind of intuitive and dynamic impression. Russia is doing stuff aeronautically that nobody else is doing. Everyone else is just attempting to copy our stealth fighters. Russian aircraft have a soul all their own and that uniqueness is why I love them so much.

    If sukhoi truly succeeds in making this righter without major delays it could eventually trump even fears of CAATSA. It may well become the next mig-21 of our time.

    I respect your opinion, but I am of the opinion that currently everything is STILL going in the direction I wrote.
    It is known throughout the world that Serbia is the country that values ​​Russia the most. And so, primarily because of the pressure, Serbia decided to buy the FK-3, about the order (though unofficially) for systems like HQ-17 and FK-2000. In addition, Serbia also bought a UAV from China.
    If Serbia did it, so will many others. dunno

    If I were to ask myself, I would rather buy the J-10 from China than the French Rafale, because the West is not to be trusted.

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    Post  LMFS Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:00 pm

    Swgman_BK wrote:

    VKS is not interested. Its a private UAC project the Su75. Just like the Mig-35. I personally dont blame the VKS either..I would opt for a twin engine Su75 with enhanced stealth capabilities, but the current Su75 is a budget Su57 for low budget air forces which isnt the Russian Airforce. I see the Russian airforce buying it if did VTOL like the F35-C but the current carrier is expected to get permanently shelved somewhere around 2030-2035 at which point Russia wont have an Aircraft carrier (They had a total of 5 once with 4 nuclear powered ones until they sold 2 and scrapped 2)

    VKS is as much a budget airforce as any other one. In the end, in force composition it is always about a compromise between capability and cost, no matter how advanced the platforms and how big the numbers. In that regard, the best way, by far, VKS can grow to the size it needs to actually fulfil their mission is to have high capability aircraft to achieve air superiority and then more abundant and cheap airframes to take care of the tactical tasks. Sukhoi themselves have explained how a future force composed by Su-57, LTS and Okhotnik would combine for an optimal fleet composition, and they are the ones shaping the next generation of platforms, so they tend to know what they are talking about. Make no mistake, main customer and core focus of the Russian state companies is and will be the armed forces of Russia. That is what they know the best and what takes precedence over any other task, as it should be.

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:This aircraft (Su-75) has potential and it is likely that it will be also ordered by russian air force, if the orders from foreign buyers will finance the development and testing phases.

    Not really, UAC and Rostec have already confirmed many times that the funding of the program is secured and no foreign partner is needed to bring it to the finish line. That would be a completely delusional and doomed approach, BTW, given the total incompatibility between the stability required by the program in terms of funds and requirements and the totally uncontrollable political fluctuations at the potential partners. But of course for VKS it is still much better to lay back and wait for initiative programs from the state run companies to actually deliver something and convince them of the merits of the developed equipment, than being co-responsible and sponsors of such programs. Already happened with many of the best platforms currently in operation both at VKS and in the armed forces in general.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:17 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    I respect your opinion, but I am of the opinion that currently everything is STILL going in the direction I wrote.
    It is known throughout the world that Serbia is the country that values ​​Russia the most. And so, primarily because of the pressure, Serbia decided to buy the FK-3, about the order (though unofficially) for systems like HQ-17 and FK-2000. In addition, Serbia also bought a UAV from China.
    If Serbia did it, so will many others. dunno

    If I were to ask myself, I would rather buy the J-10 from China than the French Rafale, because the West is not to be trusted.

    I do not believe that the antirussians sanctions will continue for long to have an impact.
    Yes EU countries will not buy russian aircrafts, but that is not something hugely problematic.

    Most of the rest of the world has already seen the hypocrisy in all of these situations.

    Many Arab countries (even former and current US allies) are already seeing Russia as good potential partner and more reliable than US.

    After the situation in Ukraine is solved (and both Ukraine and Bielorussia are split into various russian oblasts and republics) Russia will be able to better cope with many of these things anyway.

    Furthermore after Russia shares again a border with Slovakia and Hungary it will be much easier to have put a limit on the antirussian policies in central Europe.

    Once Serbia can be reached from Russia without crossing hostile countries (either via Hungary or via the Danube) the influence from Bruxelles and Washington will be mitigated as well



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    Post  Mir Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:58 pm

    Swgman_BK wrote:
    I would opt for a twin engine Su75 with enhanced stealth capabilities.

    It's the Su-57. Wink

    Swgman_BK wrote:Russia wont have an Aircraft carrier (They had a total of 5 once with 4 nuclear powered ones until they sold 2 and scrapped 2)

    Shocked

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    Post  Mir Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:02 pm

    Wink

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 24 27-11710

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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:15 pm

    Russia wont have an Aircraft carrier (They had a total of 5 once with 4 nuclear powered ones until they sold 2 and scrapped 2)
    unshaven

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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:51 am

    I am afraid that the current US ban and the threat of sanctions will still harm Russia's MIC in the long run.

    Western sanctions have been good for the Russian military, and US bans don't effect them at all really... nothing Russia uses is bought from the US, and hostile countries complying with US bans allows Russia to get a clean break from the losers that call themselves the west collectively.

    Buying turbines from Germany and engines from Germany and France was useful at the time but obviously now we can see it was a bit short sighted... it has given Russian companies the opportunity to expand and grow and develop new capabilities, new engine families will cover most gaps in the engine range over the next few years, and lets face it... they couldn't fund everything all at once, so this has allowed core issues to be sorted and over time for other problems to be sorted too.

    The Su-75 will likely be very successful on the international market, but the fact that they are not buying MiG-35s which fill the exact same niche in 4th gen fighters suggests they are not interested in any light fighter that might be super cheap but still not cheaper than a purpose built drone.

    The drone version of the Su-75 would have the enormous advantage that it would be designed for thousands of operational hours use like the manned version, and if designed well could perform high g manouvers that no human crew could tolerate making it unbeatable in a dogfight, but it is still going to be rather more expensive than a custom designed drone like S-70.

    For a foreign country with no S-70 programme then an unmanned model of the Su-75 might make sense because it shares parts and systems it might make sense especially if the operational costs are kept reasonable.

    Big US drones cost more than light Russian fighters both to buy and to operate and are not actually stealthy.

    It makes more sense to go for big carriers with CTOL fighter aircraft than to piss around with VSTOL aircraft... the track record of VSTOL fighters is dire... carrying around an engine you only use for landing is too much dead weight... and using it to take off means you limit your payload and fuel load too much and makes your aircraft non competitive.

    The Russian Navy learned that in the 1980s and 1990s with their Kiev class carriers and their Kuznetsov.

    Their next carriers were all planned to be bigger.

    Another factor was propulsion... in the 1970-80-90s etc they only had Kirov class cruisers with nuclear propulsion, their other nukes were all subs...

    Currently their plans are for nuclear powered Destroyer and nuclear powered Cruisers, and I suspect nuclear powered carriers because their naval NPPs seem to be rather capable and also rather compact and modern.

    If their new carriers are nuclear powered it just makes sense to make them big to increase their capacity for everything.

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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:12 pm

    I am afraid that the current US ban and the threat of sanctions will still harm Russia's MIC in the long run. wrote:

    This is not true. Russia like any other industrialized country has multiple contractors involved in the construction of military equipment. Some Russian companies decide to use Western parts in their components and some others don't. Some Russian missiles use Western processors and circuit boards whilst others don't.. Multiple contractors do things differently. But a large majority do not do this. Especially those making EW systems and general avionics. KRET doesnt use Western components so sanctioning KRET is not gonna hurt the company.. Sanctioning Vympel wont either.. They use Russia systems and microcontrollers (Albeit old ones in most cases but they do the job when coupled to a modern processor). The only companies that might somewhat suffer TEMPORARILY are kNAAPO whose factory had some German and Japanese machines in it.. When their OS needs an update they wont get support anymore unfortunately.. But Russia is already sourcing these factory machines from China (Apparently making your own wasnt attractive enough to Russia)

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:25 pm

    Swgman_BK wrote:

    Russia wont have an Aircraft carrier (They had a total of 5 once with 4 nuclear powered ones until they sold 2 and scrapped 2)

    Russia or Soviet Union never had nuclear powered carriers.

    There was one nuclear powered carrier being built in 1991, the Ulyanovsk, but then Soviet Union collapsed and Eltsin and Gorbachev allowed Nikolaev to be given to Ukraine.

    Independent Ukraine (not Russia or Soviet union) scrapped the Ulyanovsk and put in sale the sister ship to admiral Kuznetov, which the Chinese built in 1998.

    3 Kiev class carriers (only for helicopters and VTOLs) were scrapped in the 1990s: two of them sold to China and converted as either amusement parcs or hotel, after the Chinese properly studied them and learnt as much as they could and one (novorossisk) was broken up in South Korea.

    In the 1990s there was no money for proper repairs and the only available shipyard with knowledge about it was in a foreign land that preferred destroying Tu-160 and Tu-22M instead of selling them to Russia.

    Admiral gorshkov, ex Baku, had at least a better fate as it was preserved and later converted by Sevmash into a STOVL carrier for India.

    Anyways this is also a bit off topic since I really doubt Russia would want a single engine naval fighter.

    So I do not imagine a carrier borne derivative of the Su-75 Checkmate. Much more probable would be something derived from the Su-57 (or a modernised version of the Mig-29k)


    @ Swgman_BK
    About the sanctions

    The problem now is not that the sanctions against russian companies prevent them to obtain parts and equipment, but that US is putting pressure on third countries and blackmailing them in order not to buy russian military products.

    Of course this will not last forever and there are always less and less things that are only available from the west

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    Post  Gomig-21 Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:26 pm

    Mir wrote:Wink

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 24 27-11710

    Carrier or no carrier, the GoMiGman wants to see this thing FLYING, and FLYING VERY SOON, and FLYING CIRCLES around anything it encounters and forget about finding some Arab Sheikh from the UAE or Saudiya or Qatar or even prince Henry himself to finance it.  Let's get it going, fellas, LET'S GOOOOOOOO!!!

    Enough of this kind of teasing it's brutal and for us older fellas, it's damaging to the old heartsky!

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 24 Su-75-2

    Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2 - Page 24 Su-75-1-1200x675

    I think if there wasn't this SMO going on, there would be zero excuse and we'd be giving them A LOT MORE GRIEF!  What's the sense of talking about its inception for almost a decade and then unveil what appeared to be a functioning prototype that maybe hadn't flown yet, but how about some taxi runs or even runway speed runs?  Sorry if I'm pissing people off but that's because I'm pissed off myself!  I want to see Russia gets its earned spot so there is no doubt on anyone's mind, even better, see it creep up on an F-35 out of nowhere wow wouldn't that be orgasmic.  Literally better than sex with Salma Hayek!

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    Post  sepheronx Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:39 pm

    Russias machine tooling industry has grown considerably and is actually one of the fasted growing industries in Russia only coming close to agricultural levels of expansion. Kalashnikov themselves has extended its manufacturing of high tech CNC machines for another 3 years. So I'm unsure where some of the questionable intellect of some individuals here say Russia didn't bother expanding in this sector comes from (SWGman)

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:52 pm

    I feel you gomig.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:04 pm

    The Su-75 is more and more reminiscent of the Su-57, but I would install two engines.
    Yes, the price of the plane would be higher, but it would be worth it.
    Even without the afterburner option, the two "izdeliye-30" engines would give 216 KN of thrust, which is more than 190 KN in F-35 with afterburner.
    After all, the Eurofighter is not a big plane either, but it has two engines. Eurofighter; 60 kN (13,000 lbf) thrust each dry, 90 kN (20,000 lbf) with afterburner.
    It is a plane with a maximum permissible mass of 23,5 tons.
    The F-35 has only 125 KN dry thrust, i.e. only 5 KN more than the Eurofighter and the maximum permissible take-off weight, which is 6,400 kg more than that of the EF-2000.
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:25 pm

    2 engines and it will fly 300km like the mig-29.

    This design is very good. Only need long range weapons.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:17 pm

    Isos wrote:2 engines and it will fly 300km like the mig-29.

    This design is very good. Only need long range weapons.

    Then let them make new and smaller engines..
    Dry thrust on the Eurofighter is 120 KN (for both engines) and 180 KN with afterburner.
    At 6400 kg less EF-2000 is significantly better than the F-35 with 125 KN dry thrust and 190 KN with afterburner.
    Su-57 with one engine will be junk just like F-35. The only chance is that the Su-75 is not a heavy plane and does not exceed 20 tons, like the F-16 or J-10.
    Although, if the Su-75 had a maximum mass of about 23 to 24 tons and if the "izdeliye-30" could give up to 110+ KN dry thrust and about 170+ KN with afterburner then that would be solid. Not at the EF-2000 level, but certainly better than the F-35.

    One "izdeliye-30" engine could provide between 17.5 tons and 19.5 tons on afterburner.
    The power is not declared and the tests are ongoing so there is no data.
    I cannot be impressed by an aircraft that has worse flight performance than the fourth generation aircraft.
    If someone believes so much in stealth, I don't, because stealth planes would be shot down just like stealth cruise missiles.
    A plane that can get into and out of the zone of action faster will always be a better plane.

    The only solution would be to build smaller and more modern engines (obligatory two engines) and that the total weight does not exceed 25 tons.
    Since it is expensive because PAK-DP will surely get much more money, then the Su-75 is only an airplane according to the principle of "give what you already have".
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:46 am


    Admiral gorshkov, ex Baku, had at least a better fate as it was preserved and later converted by Sevmash into a STOVL carrier for India.

    STOCL... short takeoff (from a ramp) and conventional landing (hook and arrester cables).

    So I do not imagine a carrier borne derivative of the Su-75 Checkmate. Much more probable would be something derived from the Su-57 (or a modernised version of the Mig-29k)

    Both MiG and Sukhoi have been burned in the past making single engined aircraft and being told that is not acceptable by the Russian AF. MiG had an F-16 like single engined fighter as an alternative to the MiG-29 which was rejected because it was single engined, Sukhoi had a jet LIFT that was also rejected because it was single engined too... about the only planes they will accept are the Yak-52/152 trainers and the An-2 and its single engined replacement Baikal aircraft.

    The problem now is not that the sanctions against russian companies prevent them to obtain parts and equipment, but that US is putting pressure on third countries and blackmailing them in order not to buy russian military products.

    It is actually a good thing... as they keep bullying countries like that more and more are going to find they have to say no more and more often and it gets easier over time. If the US cancels aide they quickly learn they end up saving money because US Aide can only be spent on expensive and largely useless US weapons anyway so it really does not contribute much to defence and often ends up sucking up more funds for expensive maintenance and support.

    Carrier or no carrier, the GoMiGman wants to see this thing FLYING, and FLYING VERY SOON, and FLYING CIRCLES around anything it encounters and forget about finding some Arab Sheikh from the UAE or Saudiya or Qatar or even prince Henry himself to finance it. Let's get it going, fellas, LET'S GOOOOOOOO!!!

    This is just fan art though,,, there is no way it could have those two engines using the same tiny air intakes... adding that extra engine would require much much bigger air intakes to work.

    A dorsal air scoop that operates in VSTOL mode that opens when the aircraft is taking off or transitions to the hover might work, but it is clearly not there so I say this is fanart.

    The Su-75 is more and more reminiscent of the Su-57, but I would install two engines.
    Yes, the price of the plane would be higher, but it would be worth it.

    With two engines it would be an Su-57. The whole point of the Su-75 is to reduce weight and power and to simplify and make affordable.

    I cannot be impressed by an aircraft that has worse flight performance than the fourth generation aircraft.

    The F-18 has shorter range and less payload and is much slower than an F-14. In terms of electronics it is much more advanced but nothing that couldn't be put into an F-14 to improve it too.

    The key thing the Su-75 has over 4th like Rafale and Gripen and Typhoon is internal weapons carriage and it is actually stealthy.

    Supermanouverabilty comes from thrust vectoring engine, not excess thrust to weight ratio... that determines acceleration along with weight and drag of course.

    The Chinese agree, their F-35 copy has two engines and the MiG-35 has two engines too... but some people think you can't have a cheap affordable plane with two engines. Ignoring that the MiG-35 is cheaper than the F-16 to operate and of course the F-5 was cheaper than the F-16 too, or the F-20 with two small reliable cheap engines replaced by a bigger much more powerful single engine that was not cheap to buy or maintain didn't make it a cheap plane anymore.

    A plane that can get into and out of the zone of action faster will always be a better plane.

    Fast planes can be shot down too.

    Stealth makes it harder to find you and to track you but it is not magical.

    Most Russian air defence systems have backup modes that allow optical engagement, but most of the time being stealthy would be useful if not critical.

    If you can get a light stealth fighter for $40 million and its maintenance costs are less than $8K per hour of flight then you have a real winner.

    Since it is expensive because PAK-DP will surely get much more money, then the Su-75 is only an airplane according to the principle of "give what you already have".

    There is no evidence that the Russian government is putting any money at all into Checkmate. There was talk that they promised MiG funding for the LMFS programme to make a cheap light 5th gen fighter once the Su-57 is in serial production... which it is now, but they have not said anything about that... and they are not obliged to.

    I suspect they wont say anything about that because that might sabotage the Su-75 programme to use technology from the Su-57 to make a single seater light single engined fighter and sell internationally.

    The Russian government might not be funding either programme, but then MiG would be publicising their model and trying to get it built and tested... the fact that they are not suggests to me it is funded but is secret.... the same way the Mi-28A attack helicopter was shown in the west in the late 80s and early 90s to find export customers after it lost the competition against the Ka-50 to replace the Hind in Russian service. Of course after Desert Storm they realised helicopters were safer operating at night and a single seat Ka-50 was at a disadvantage because flying at night is a full time job so having two crew makes sense so they anulled the results and ran it again with the Ka-52 and Mi-28 and decided to use both because the Ka-52 was too expensive to replace all the Hinds and the Havoc was actually a good helicopter too.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:22 am

    If they want a twin engine fighter smaller than the Su-57, it does not make any sense to modify the Su-75 for it. You just ask MiG to do a 5th generation fighter to replace the Mig-29.

    Changing the Su-75 from single engine to twin engine is absurd.

    They would have to trash all the studies and design till now. The internal space would be completely redesigned as well.

    Furthermore there are no news about a smaller new generation engine with half to 2/3 of the thrust of the Saturn AL41, so that it could go on a small/medium twin fighter.

    I am sure there is a (secret to us) study from Klimov on a next generation engine to replace the RD-33 (Mig29 engine), but that will be used either on a modernisation of the Mig35 or on a 5th generation mig fighter.
    Maybe MIG could start from the beginning developing it as a naval fighter, in order to reserve a dedicated niche.

    So they would have in the future something like

    Heavy Fighter . Su57
    Naval fighter & medium/light twin - next generation MiG
    Light single engine fighter - partially for Russian air force, but mainly for export. Su-75

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:48 am

    To Garry...

    Russia cannot and should not "run after the West" in the production of new fighter planes.
    And with some 500 fighters and interceptors of the fifth generation, I would be satisfied, that is, with Su-57 and PAK-DP.
    My opinion is that the Su-57 should replace ALL aircraft currently in production including the Su-34.
    What is the purpose of the S-70 but to replace the Su-34 ?
    The Su-30SM should be the first on the kill list, and if the US is already producing the F-15 again, then the Su-35S should remain on the production lines - at least until the end of this decade.

    The West, that is, the USA, has not started to develop a new attack aircraft, so neither should Russia.
    Kudos to the Su-25, it has done a very good job in its operational career, but it is time to move on.

    Although I know where the planes of a certain type are located at Russian airports, I know that AMCXXL is an enthusiast who will solve this problem far better than me. Therefore, I think that he would have calculated much better how many aircraft Russia would need to replace all Su-27, Su-30SM and finally Su-35S.
    My opinion is at least 350.
    And this means that it would be desirable for Russia to have an additional no less than 11 or 12 squadrons with PAK-DP.
    My vision of an ideal VVS would look like this; 500 Su-57's and PAK-DP's, plus S-70 and other drones.

    And this means that NAPO, KNAAZ and Sokol remain in the production of fighter planes and that IRKUT can devote itself to the production of passenger planes. Of course, KAPO remains in the bomber production game.

    And if there is money left, then the Poles, Swedes and Finns should be screwed with Su-75 over the Baltic, as well as the Romanians and Bulgarians on the Black Sea. If it really turned out that this plane would be cheap, then it would be desirable to produce 200 to 300 planes for the VVS and place it in Crimea, Kaliningrad, Belarus, as well as on the border with Ukroshitstan.

    In total; 350 heavy fighters, 150 interceptors and about 200 to 300 light fighters. Everything else can be taken over by drones and kamikaze-drones, the development of which will especially progress in the future.
    And let the Chinese and the USA measure each other whose dick is bigger.


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