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    S-500 'Prometheus' and S-550 missile systems

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:38 am

    Missiles for s-500 are already huge. If they want something that goes even further they will end up with even bigger missiles.

    I wonder if it has any usefulness if they can carry only one missile per truck. S-500 has only two missiles per launcher.

    Silo based system should also be designed as it can employ much more missiles with a UKSK like VLS.

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:40 am

    GarryB wrote:Manouvering in the atmosphere even a small control surface has a slipstream moving at enormous velocities which means a small deflection will apply an enormous force, but the g force energy of the turn will also be applied to the manouvering object.

    It is the enormous flight speed that means even a small turn of a few degrees makes it difficult to intercept... but while still in space with thruster rockets it can change its direction much more radically.
    Maneuvering inside the atmosphere in the terminal phase will also require thrusters.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:07 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Edit2: The Adeptus Administratum is pleased.

    S-500 'Prometheus'  and S-550 missile systems - Page 9 Chapte10

    Why the 40k jokes?

    I cannot seem to get the link with the setting and Russia.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:48 pm

    Contradicting theories from "experts" and coach potatoes alike.

    First it´s claimed that S-550 is some sort of follow-on to the S-400 but with S-500 tech and more missiles then S-500 so that the system can shot down more targets + longer range, maybe up to 800 or even 1.000km.

    Now some people say S-550 will get larger missiles then S-500 to shot down ICBM´s and space objects.

    dunno unshaven

    There is already Nudol to shot down satellites up to a height of 1.000km. And they work on Aerostat and have new hunter satellites and the plane launched missile...

    I hope the realitiy will be closer to theory No. 1 = flexible air/missile/space defence system with "medium"(300 - 400km), long (600km) and ultra-long range (800+km) missiles.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:54 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Edit2: The Adeptus Administratum is pleased.

    S-500 'Prometheus'  and S-550 missile systems - Page 9 Chapte10

    Why the 40k jokes?

    I cannot seem to get the link with the setting and Russia.
    There is no parallel, it simply amuses me. Laughing
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:17 am

    Maneuvering inside the atmosphere in the terminal phase will also require thrusters.

    Inside the atmosphere you can use control surfaces for manouvering objects.

    Side thrusters are not as simple as it sounds... it needs to apply sideways force near the centre of gravity otherwise rather than shifting the missile sideways, it will just turn it one way or the other... and if the CG moves it might push the tail in the direction opposite to that you wish to head.

    A good example of that would be the RPG-7 rocket... the front cone is the warhead and the thick tube behind that is the rocket fuel... at the front of the thick tube just behind the warhead is the rocket nozzles for the sustainer rocket that burns from the middle to the back of the tube which is needed because if it burned from the back to the front the rocket would get very nose heavy very quickly and just dive into the ground.

    By burning from middle to back it keeps a reasonable CG till the rocket burns out but it self destructs then anyway so its CG from then on doesn't matter (about 950m range).

    It was found in use however that the tail fins that deploy after the rocket is fire tend to catch crosswinds, which is a problem because a crosswind catching the tail rather than the nose means the rocket tends to fly into a cross wind rather than with the cross wind so when you add lead for a crosswind you aim downwind and the cross wind pushes the tail downwind but the rocket motor then flys the rocket into the wind...

    Regarding the S-500 and S-550, the S-550 does not need to be huge... a small fragment based warhead with a spreader charge to scatter the fragments out in a specific direction for a kinetic kill means the S-550 could be quite a bit smaller and lighter than the S-500.

    Using the same solid rocket booster would therefore mean the S-550 should be able to travel faster and further.

    The S-500 might be a two stage missile, while the S-550 might be a three stage missile with the middle stage being a scramjet perhaps.

    Hard to say.

    If we look at the Pantsir missile it is long and slim and gets better and better ranges in different models by simply using a more powerful solid rocket motor booster... a scramjet powered final section would allow high speed flight and the ability to manouver to evade enemy defences as it closes on the target.
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    Post  Azi Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:49 pm

    So the concept for the future is S-350 against cruise missiles and saturation attacks, S-500 as a replacement for S-400 and S-300 in long term and S-550 for ABM defense. Sounds valid! thumbsup

    By the way it's really easy to track missile warheads during reentry, the IR signature is more than enough and radar signature is even good. Problem was to hit the warhead with a kinetic interceptor, because both objects hit with Mach 20 on an area of 0,25 square metre. The reaction time of old control elements was too slow for this, now it's possible with modern electronic equipment, prior they used a nuclear 5 kt warhead for interception...interception rate was nearly 100 % and impede the detonation of maybe a 300 kt warhead...negative side effect was still radiocative fallout over the area you want protect.

    Another point...the interception MUST be in the upper parts of atmosphere or exospheric, because the warhead detonates at a height of 1-3 km to maximize the damage from a nuclear explosion. The shockwave is not hindered by buildings and directed at the weakest spot of nearly all buildings...the roof. Interception in the last phase of fight is a dangerous game and in the lower atmosphere the warhead creates too much plasma and is not anymore so easy to track. I expect for S-550 two kind of missiles...very long range and long range and according to this start vehicle with two tubes and one tube. The S-500 will be the jack of all trades, with various missiles included.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:56 pm

    So the concept for the future is S-350 against cruise missiles and saturation attacks, S-500 as a replacement for S-400 and S-300 in long term and S-550 for ABM defense. Sounds valid! 

    Actually S-350 and S-400 can hit any aerial target.

    S-300V4 and S-500 have missiles optimized against ballistic missiles.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:38 pm

    S-500 is not a replacement for the S-300/400. It is just another layer of an already formidable air defence system.

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    Post  Azi Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:34 pm

    Mir wrote:S-500 is not a replacement for the S-300/400. It is just another layer of an already formidable air defence system.
    How many layer of air defence you need? I doubt 10 or 20 layers of air defence are necessary.

    Officially the S-500 should slowly replacing older S-300 systems (and A-135 too?!). It works then together with S-400 systems. The S-500 system is downward compatible and can work with all missiles used for S-400. In theory S-500 could replace both S-300 and S-400. So in future only S-400 and S-500 should exist and S-300 phased out (I'm speaking not of army).
    This means the gap of outphasing older S-300 wil be filled with the combination of S-500 and S-400. The S-500 will work together with S-400, S-350, Buk, Pantsir etc...in a combined air defense network.

    But to be true...so many information spread...no one outside the government and the forces knows what S-500 should do or S-550. That's why I'm confused.
    And additional there is A-135 and A-235...

    If S-500 is not intended to replace S-300, so why introducing S-550 for ABM defense and not just upgrading S-500? For me S-500 is not specialized enough and more generalist like S-300 and S-400. But see above...I'm not sure. And shouldn't a naval variant of S-500 appear? Why a naval variant if it's specialized system and not a generalist?

    Isos wrote:Actually S-350 and S-400 can hit any aerial target.

    S-300V4 and S-500 have missiles optimized against ballistic missiles.
    Of course S-350 can hit any target, but it's optimized against saturation attacks with CM...that's why the TEL has so many missiles.

    S-300V4 is just a modernized S-300 (and of course brand new produced S-300V4 exits too) with many new components nearly at same level with a brand new S-400. It has capabilities against BM but it's a jack of all trades too.


    Last edited by Azi on Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:50 pm

    @Azi

    The s-300V has no direct relation with the S-300/400. It's a completely different system in every aspect. In fact the S-500 is closer in relation to the S-300V.

    In turn the S-550 was developed from the S-500. The only confusing thing here is that both these missiles seems to be mobile, but the S-550 is claimed to be the first mobile ABM?

    How many layer of air defence you need? I doubt 10 or 20 layers of air defence are necessary.

    If you are American you probably won't need so many layers, but if you're Russian you'll need all the layers you can get! Laughing
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:54 pm

    Mir wrote:@Azi

    The s-300V has no direct relation with the S-300/400. It's a completely different system in every aspect. In fact the S-500 is closer in relation to the S-300V.

    In turn the S-550 was developed from the S-500. The only confusing thing here is that both these missiles seems to be mobile, but the S-550 is claimed to be the first mobile ABM?

    There is a possibility that Nudol may former into the S-550 or combining capabilities to reduce overall costs while still being just as effective.

    A theory

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    Post  Azi Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:03 pm

    Mir wrote:@Azi

    The s-300V has no direct relation with the S-300/400. It's a completely different system in every aspect. In fact the S-500 is closer in relation to the S-300V.

    In turn the S-550 was developed from the S-500. The only confusing thing here is that both these missiles seems to be mobile, but the S-550 is claimed to be the first mobile ABM?
    That's exactly the point!

    Of course S-500 is jack of all trades and can handly any aerial object...so it's written! But it's ABM too.

    Okay they wrote S-550 should be ABM, effective and cheap too...would be a vey good point.

    Mir wrote:
    If you are American you probably won't need so many layers, but if you're Russian you'll need all the layers you can get! Laughing
    Hahahaha Laughing True! The Muricans give normally a shit about the protection of their popuation.
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    Post  medo Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:56 pm

    Russian PVO VKS have well layered air defense organization. Pantsir-S1 is SHORAD, Pantsir-SM will be medium range SAM. S-300 and S-350 are long range SAM and S-400 is very long range SAM. S-300, S-350 and S-400 have good ABM capabilities and specially S-350 and S-400 could engage ballistic missiles with speed of 4,8 km/s. S-300 have lover capabilities, up to 3 km/s, depend on version. Those complexes are meant to engane all types of aerial targets. S-500 is capability over them. It could engage aerial targets, but main focus will be on ballistic missiles with greater speed and range and hypersonic targets and together with S-550, they will more step in space defense with anti-sat capabilities. We could add here stationary ABM complexes and lasers as well.

    S-500 and S-550 as mobile complexes will enable Russian army to deploy them wher ever they will need them to provide ABM and anti-sat capabilities. But normaly S-400 is more than enough.
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    Post  Scorpius Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:03 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Mir wrote:@Azi

    The s-300V has no direct relation with the S-300/400. It's a completely different system in every aspect. In fact the S-500 is closer in relation to the S-300V.

    In turn the S-550 was developed from the S-500. The only confusing thing here is that both these missiles seems to be mobile, but the S-550 is claimed to be the first mobile ABM?

    There is a possibility that Nudol may former into the S-550 or combining capabilities to reduce overall costs while still being just as effective.

    A theory


    Oh, no. The S-500 is a system for low orbits and atmospheric targets. Nudol is a system for medium orbits and exoatmospheric purposes. There is still an unknown rocket according to the Aerostat research project, which should have a range of hitting satellites at altitudes of 1000 kilometers or more, but nothing is known about it except rumors.

    So there will be no S-550 Nudol.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:39 pm

    I am rather convinced that Russia has updated the A-135 to use more advanced solid propellants. The size and acceleration characteristics
    can be substantially upgraded by using the roughly double energy density solid fuels that have emerged in Russia after the 1990. These
    new fuels are more than certain to use nanoparticle combustion technology. We had posts on this theme before on this board.

    A much smaller version of the A-135 can be made with more limited range compared to the original but which would fit rather well in the
    S-500 framework. Half the size results in more range and faster acceleration than the original A-135. Less energy is spent on fighting
    the inertia of the missile so the range increases. The A-135 was designed in the USSR period and predates the advances in solid propellant.

    The A-235 uses the doubled energy density to give itself faster acceleration and probably has a greater range than the A-135. It can also
    be rendered mobile. Just like the railway ICBMs no longer require special rolling stock and reinforced rails.

    I find it rather telling that the obvious doubling of solid propellant energy density is not discussed. Shows you what trash most "experts"
    are. They are too busy politically posturing and kissing the rears of their employers to produce any quality analysis.


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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:43 pm

    Scorpius wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Mir wrote:@Azi

    The s-300V has no direct relation with the S-300/400. It's a completely different system in every aspect. In fact the S-500 is closer in relation to the S-300V.

    In turn the S-550 was developed from the S-500. The only confusing thing here is that both these missiles seems to be mobile, but the S-550 is claimed to be the first mobile ABM?

    There is a possibility that Nudol may former into the S-550 or combining capabilities to reduce overall costs while still being just as effective.

    A theory


    Oh, no. The S-500 is a system for low orbits and atmospheric targets. Nudol is a system for medium orbits and exoatmospheric purposes. There is still an unknown rocket according to the Aerostat research project, which should have a range of hitting satellites at altitudes of 1000 kilometers or more, but nothing is known about it except rumors.

    So there will be no S-550 Nudol.

    OK, so it gives guaranteed ABM capabilities to possibly various cities of Russia without needing the heavy infrastructure that is in place for the A-135. This would make most sense.
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    Post  limb Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:30 pm

    Hole wrote:ICBM´s are hypersonic, too. No problem to track them. The maneuvering is the problem. But the russian AD missiles are as fast and maneuverable. In that instance it is down to reaction time of the AD/ABM ystem and the guidance of the missile to the target.

    Yes but a HGV is already travelling at mach 20, and can evade targeting radar bubbles, and there is no missile that has been able to destroy ICBM warheads with high efficiency, otherwise we would see anti-ICBM missiles in non-boutique numbers. If Russians are confident that they can shoot down HGVs midcourse, while americans can only terminally attack nonmaneuvering MIRVs with 50% chance, does that mean the russians have a pulse detonation rocket engine on the S-500 that can easily accelerate it to mach 20-30 with 50+G limit?

    I am rather convinced that Russia has updated the A-135 to use more advanced solid propellants. The size and acceleration characteristics
    can be substantially upgraded by using the roughly double energy density solid fuels that have emerged in Russia after the 1990. These
    new fuels are more than certain to use nanoparticle combustion technology. We had posts on this theme before on this board.

    A much smaller version of the A-135 can be made with more limited range compared to the original but which would fit rather well in the
    S-500 framework. Half the size results in more range and faster acceleration than the original A-135. Less energy is spent on fighting
    the inertia of the missile so the range increases. The A-135 was designed in the USSR period and predates the advances in solid propellant.

    The A-235 uses the doubled energy density to give itself faster acceleration and probably has a greater range than the A-135. It can also
    be rendered mobile. Just like the railway ICBMs no longer require special rolling stock and reinforced rails.

    I find it rather telling that the obvious doubling of solid propellant energy density is not discussed. Shows you what trash most "experts"
    are. They are too busy politically posturing and kissing the rears of their employers to produce any quality analysis.

    Is there a physical limit for energy density in solid propellants, just like with Gun propellants, the speed of sound in working fluid I believe?
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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:33 am



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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:50 am

    So the concept for the future is S-350 against cruise missiles and saturation attacks, S-500 as a replacement for S-400 and S-300 in long term and S-550 for ABM defense. Sounds valid!

    I am not convinced.

    I think even the big S-400 missiles will be smaller and cheaper and able to be carried in larger numbers than the S-500 and S-550, and while they are four times bigger than the S-350 missiles they can also reach 250km and 400km range targets too, and for bigger heavier targets the bigger missiles with their bigger warheads would be more effective too while being cheaper than the S-500.

    I suspect the S-350, S-400, S-500, and S-550 will be used together or separately for different roles... there will be enormous numbers of S-350 because it is smaller and lighter and cheaper, there will likely be more S-400s than S-500s and S-550s because I think they will be smaller and lighter and cheaper and quite often most aerial targets will be within 250km let alone 400km except perhaps high up in the arctic or far east.

    S-550 might be deployed to major cities and naval ports and air fields... the latter two not necessarily only in Russia...

    Another point...the interception MUST be in the upper parts of atmosphere or exospheric, because the warhead detonates at a height of 1-3 km to maximize the damage from a nuclear explosion.

    That is very true except however an S-550 located near a Russian ICBM field of silos... Russian missile silos are very strong and need almost direct hits to ensure they will be taken out so that means ground impacts with penetrator warheads... which means S-550 could be effective down to very low altitudes...

    S-300V4 and S-500 have missiles optimized against ballistic missiles.

    S-300V4 is the Army S-300 system, so they have S-300V4s above their BUKs, with no S-350s or S-300s for other targets.

    S-500 is not a replacement for the S-300/400. It is just another layer of an already formidable air defence system.

    Yes... it is an ABM cap on top that could engage very long range targets in the same way that S-300 could engage cruise missiles... but as it would detect them only at about 12km because of their operational height it makes more sense to use Pantsir or TOR.

    How many layer of air defence you need? I doubt 10 or 20 layers of air defence are necessary.

    The different sizes have different costs.... do you want to use both S-500 missiles from a single TEL launcher against drones?

    S-500 adds a new distance targets can be engaged in... beyond 400km range and above 40km altitude... it is optimised for ballistic targets but if it detects a B-2 or an F-22 or AWACS aircraft then of course they will take the shot because they are high value targets that would seriously damage an enemy to lose in terms of cost and performance. They wont have enough S-500s to be shooting down F-35s if they end up with 3,500 of them, and I doubt they would want to waste them on them anyway.

    The ranges are expanding all the time, but S-350 replaces S-300 for shorter ranged targets, while for longer ranged targets the S-400 has more missiles that are likely cheaper than S-500 missiles.

    The S-550 seems to be optimised specifically for ballistic and satellite and hypersonic manouvering targets... it probably has thrust vectoring control rocket motor that can be stopped and started multiple times to enable manouver performance inside and outside the atmosphere...

    Officially the S-500 should slowly replacing older S-300 systems (and A-135 too?!).

    Not really. The S-300s were based in all the important places being their best long range missile, so the places where long range were important they tended to get replaced with S-400s first, while in more backwater areas the S-300s are being replaced with S-350s which in many ways match the performance of older S-300s anyway.

    A-135 was only based around Moscow and will likely be getting replaced with Nudol because they are both silo launched... S-550 would be a good supplement and eventual replacement for A-135 and compliment for Nudol... the silos are already built and keeping missiles in there does not cost extra money and they are well protected from surprise attacks, while a few batteries of S-550 around Moscow would enable a surprise attack... say a FOBS attack attempting to destroy the silos could be defeated. Nudol and S-550 would compliment each other and could be expanded to be based around Leningrad and perhaps Vladivostok and perhaps Sevastopol and the Pacific fleet and large air force bases etc etc.

    In theory S-500 could replace both S-300 and S-400. So in future only S-400 and S-500 should exist and S-300 phased out (I'm speaking not of army).

    Agree the air force and navy S-300 (P and F respectively) will be phased out, replaced by S-400 and S-350... S-500 can do things S-400 can't, and while S-500 can do things S-400 can't the S-400 is smaller and lighter and cheaper and can be carried in larger numbers than the S-500 so it makes sense to keep S-400 and S-500 and S-350 in service.

    This means the gap of outphasing older S-300 wil be filled with the combination of S-500 and S-400.

    S-300P and F will be replaced on land and at sea by a combination of S-350, S-400 and a few S-500s... as mentioned there will be no naval S-550, which is a specialist ABM/ASAT missile.

    The S-500 will work together with S-400, S-350, Buk, Pantsir etc...in a combined air defense network.

    Yes, very much so. The S-500 will provide extended range over reach for very specific high value targets, while the smaller missiles in progressively larger numbers are used to fill out the defence against a range of threats.

    But to be true...so many information spread...no one outside the government and the forces knows what S-500 should do or S-550. That's why I'm confused.
    And additional there is A-135 and A-235...

    S-500 are in a sense bigger heavier longer ranged S-400s able to engage longer range ballistic missiles and satellites in orbit, but also aircraft inside the atmosphere at enormous horizontal range.

    The A-135 and A-235 are silo launched optimised ABM missiles... think of them as GBIs that work.


    If S-500 is not intended to replace S-300, so why introducing S-550 for ABM defense and not just upgrading S-500?

    S-500 is going to be a missile bigger than the S-400... it would be like saying why does the An-124 not replace the Il-476... because it would not be cost effective to do so. S-500 has a reach... reportedly up to 600km, but could be more, but for many targets a missile located closer to the target could be used instead saving the S-500s for targets those closer shorter ranged missiles can't deal with.

    S-400 can deal with target moving at 4.8km/s, S-500 7km/s... S-550 would need to be able to deal with 11km/s or faster to deal with targets in higher earth orbits and ICBMs/SLBMs.

    For me S-500 is not specialized enough and more generalist like S-300 and S-400. But see above...I'm not sure. And shouldn't a naval variant of S-500 appear? Why a naval variant if it's specialized system and not a generalist?

    S-500 is fully capable of dealing with aerodynamic threats like the S-300V4, but being a very big heavy missile it is not particularly efficient for shooting down cruise missiles or drones... if the US or HATO develop a ballistic anti ship missile similar to that Chinese missile then that is exactly what the Russian Navy would carry S-500s for... S-500s making more sense than S-550 because they can be used against a range of targets.

    If the naval S-500 is carried in a UKSK-M launch tube then you might load a few on a corvette and sail it close to a US carrier group from an unexpected direction to try to take down the AWACS aircraft from 600km away perhaps...

    Of course S-350 can hit any target, but it's optimized against saturation attacks with CM...that's why the TEL has so many missiles.

    It certainly is a numbers missile but shooting down F-35s at 100km range makes more sense that waiting till they launch their stand off munitions and have to engage each weapon one at a time...

    S-350 with 15km, 60mk, and 150km range missiles is actually very good in terms of range and performance compared with older model S-300s and likely be used in conjunction with S-400s and S-500s too so they don't have to waste big expensive missiles defending against cruise missile attacks.

    The big missile can be used against the launch platform 400km or 600-800km away... before they launch their missiles if possible.

    S-300V4 is just a modernized S-300 (and of course brand new produced S-300V4 exits too) with many new components nearly at same level with a brand new S-400. It has capabilities against BM but it's a jack of all trades too.

    S-300V is a separate family of missiles. It is an upgraded S-300, but an upgraded S-300V... not related to S-300P or S-300F of the airforce and navy respectively.

    Being a larger missile there was more growth potential and already being multistage meant its performance could be dramatically increased too.... much the same way the Pantsir missile went from the 8km range of the SA-19 to the 40+km range of the newer missiles.

    In turn the S-550 was developed from the S-500. The only confusing thing here is that both these missiles seems to be mobile, but the S-550 is claimed to be the first mobile ABM?

    The S-300V and S-300P and S-300F and S-400 are all ATBMs... or Anti Theatre range ballistic missile systems, the S-550 are ABM/ASAT... the S-500 clearly is not able to intercept ICBMs and SLBMs of any kind so it is being lumped with the ATBMs despite being at the upper end.

    With the INF treaty there were only short range ballistic missiles and intercontinental ballistic missiles in the Russian/Soviet and US inventories, the missiles with ranges from 500km to 5,500km or Medium Range Ballistic and Intermediate Range Ballistic missiles, or MRBM and IRBM missiles were banned, so theatre range ballistic missiles were short range missiles only. The S-500 with a performance of 7km/s target speed would be counted as an ABM system under the ABM treaty, but they clearly only want the S-500 for intercepting hypersonic manouvering weapons and up to IRBMs, while the S-550 is probably an ABM/ASAT system.

    The S-500 should be able to intercept targets in low earth orbit too... so would be an ATBM/ASAT system.

    If you are American you probably won't need so many layers, but if you're Russian you'll need all the layers you can get!

    Americans only want AWACS and F-35.

    There is a possibility that Nudol may former into the S-550 or combining capabilities to reduce overall costs while still being just as effective.

    A theory

    The truck carrying Nudol looks very similar to the truck that carries A-235 which is a silo based missile.

    Those complexes are meant to engane all types of aerial targets. S-500 is capability over them. It could engage aerial targets, but main focus will be on ballistic missiles with greater speed and range and hypersonic targets and together with S-550, they will more step in space defense with anti-sat capabilities.

    Agreed, the S-500 would have better range and altitude and target speed, but would also be rather bigger and heavier and more expensive so it needs to be specialised.... like an An-225... you would not use it for any old target...

    Yes but a HGV is already travelling at mach 20, and can evade targeting radar bubbles,

    If the target of the HGV is deep inside an enormous 2,500km radius radar bubble then it is going to have to take the risk and enter... the simple fact is that Russia is a labyrinth of overlapping radar bubbles.... there can be no flying around...

    And with an IADS the location of the radar bubbles will not necessarily have anything to do with where the missiles are located... they could be on ships or barges... if they spend a lot on their navy in the near future they might have Redut Ashore with land based UKSK-M too...


    Is there a physical limit for energy density in solid propellants, just like with Gun propellants, the speed of sound in working fluid I believe?

    For maximum horizontal range they could replace their solid rocket propellents with high energy fuel with air scooped up as it travels at mach 20 plus inside the atmosphere with a scramjet motor.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:38 pm

    Some guys here really think that AD/ABM missiles are like torpedos. They have to be fast to catch up to the sub! No. The high speed of the interceptor missile is only neccessary to reach the target as fast as possible. For short range systems the speed is neccessary to be able to shot the enemy missile down before it can reach you and for long-range systems the speed is neccessary to reach a height of 50 or 100 or 200 km fast enough. In 99% of all cases we will see a head-to-head engagement of the incoming missile and the interceptor. In that instance even a VW Golf can crash a Formula 1 car.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:54 pm

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    Post  RTN Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:Russian missile silos are very strong and need almost direct hits to ensure they will be taken out so that means ground impacts with penetrator warheads... which means S-550 could be effective down to very low altitudes...
    That's why U.S stand off weapons have Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) Weapon Data Link capability - to target SAM systems like the S-500.

    AGM-158D (previously JASSM-ER+) WDL upgrade features a BLOS Weapon Data Link capability similar to the LRASM. LRASM features both LOS and BLOS data-link capability.
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    Post  Mir Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:06 pm

    The AGM-58D is quite potent yes but it will probably have a very hard time penetrating Russia's extensive and multi-layered AD network (incl interceptors). It's main drawback - despite being stealthy - is that it is quite slow, making it a fairly easy target for the Russians.
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    Post  kvs Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:23 pm

    limb wrote:

    Is there a physical limit for energy density in solid propellants, just like with Gun propellants, the speed of sound in working fluid I believe?

    There is definitely a limit for the energy density. But the factor of two density increase is well within any such limits since the Soviet solid rocket
    fuel was less efficient than the US versions during the 1980s and none of them used the super-optimized combustion afforded by nanoparticle
    effects on combustion energy barriers. They act like surface catalysts that lower the Gibbs free energy of the reactions. It is possible to burn
    aluminum nano-powder in pure CO2. Such combustion is not possible with bulk aluminum.

    As for speed of sound you must be referring to cavitation. The air is just a source of drag for these missiles and they would operate better in
    a vacuum. If they used turbines then there is a fluid continuity barrier that limits how fast you can push them. Scramjets and ramjets avoid this
    barrier since the air is rammed into an aperture by the forward motion. There is no requirement for any mass-adjustment flow to feed the engine
    and restore the fluid around turbine blades. Mass adjustment or fluid continuity balance is maintained by speed of sound "wave flows".
    For a vacuum cleaner one has an elliptic flow distribution of air into the intake even though the fluid system is hyperbolic. You cannot hear
    these fine speed of sound mass adjustments but they are always active. A large scale analogue of such adjustment is the inertia-gravity
    waves that radiate from mesoscale and synoptic flow features that produce "geostrophic balance" where the "horizontal" wind streamlines
    tend to follow the contours of the geopotential surfaces.

    The ABMs do not use oxygen in the air, it is part of their onboard fuel.

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