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    S-500 'Prometheus' and S-550 missile systems

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:39 pm

    kvs wrote:  A large scale analogue of such adjustment is the inertia-gravity waves that radiate from mesoscale and synoptic flow features that produce "geostrophic balance" where the "horizontal" wind streamlines tend to follow the contours of the geopotential surfaces.  
    Shocked

    Now where did I put my dictionary Laughing Laughing

    Definitely above my pay grade Smile

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:53 pm

    RTN wrote:That's why U.S stand off weapons have Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) Weapon Data Link capability - to target SAM systems like the S-500.

    Please stop embarrassing yourself here with such claims. You may be taking this site for any of those places where all kinds of Western retardation go, here it does not work like that and arrogant ignorance is taken for what it is. Those subsonic weapons and their carriers have low chances against isolated Pantsirs, against multilayered, integrated Russian air defence equipped with OTH detection and other high level capabilities, to use them is simply a fools errand, and you know it or at least you should.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:09 am

    I just dont know if users are actually being serious about what tney post or just doing it for troll purposes. Technically speaking yes you can launch LRASM from a far enough distance where the aircraft itself wont get targetted because its range is longer than the long range air defense system with said radar and SAMs. But rather if you can hit the air defense accurately or not is a seperate matter in the kosovo war NATO aircraft had 3 to 4 times the range the air defenses they were dealing with and still managed to hit aircraft. F-16Is have air to ground weapon choices along with EW capabilities that make their weapons hit far enough but the S-200 not having any EW protection capabilies managed to still hit one. If your trying anything against modern air defenses that have both EW capabilities and protection with other EW systems there is a good chance it wont even reach the air defense let alone get targetted by short and medium air defenses that are controlled by long range air defenses with stations that operate as one.

    I will give photonic radars some time since they are estimating 5 years to get the software part done in which they can create SAMs that can work with them to hit aerial targets by combining OTH capabilities with terahertz detection and tracking If I read my two sources correctly to what they are implying where you can even hit the aircraft carrying the LRASM

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    Post  Lennox Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:41 am

    Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the phrase beyond light of sight weapon data link kinda weird? Literally anything with data link can de facto work beyond LOS (if it cant, what's the point anyway), and there are countless weapons with that capability already.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:17 am

    thegopnik wrote:Technically speaking yes you can launch LRASM from a far enough distance where the aircraft itself wont get targetted because its range is longer than the long range air defense system with said radar and SAMs.

    The carrier itself can be detected thousands of km before it can launch and therefore interceptors can be sent in its direction. When those are MiG-31s the chances for the carrier to reach the release point and turn back before being shot down are questionable at best.

    But rather if you can hit the air defense accurately or not is a seperate matter in the kosovo war NATO aircraft had 3 to 4 times the range the air defenses they were dealing with and still managed to hit aircraft. F-16Is have air to ground weapon choices along with EW capabilities that make their weapons hit far enough but the S-200 not having any EW protection capabilies managed to still hit one. If your trying anything against modern air defenses that have both EW capabilities and protection with other EW systems there is a good chance it wont even reach the air defense let alone get targetted by short and medium air defenses that are controlled by long range air defenses with stations that operate as one.

    There are totally dramatic differences, both qualitative and quantitative, between the bombing of Serbia and how a campaign vs Russia would work, and still as you say SEAD teams there had a hard time and NATO planes were shot down. How they fancy themselves bombing Russia with those primitive techniques that rely primarily on overwhelming superiority in every field and the luxury to operate close to the front without having their air bases and enabling assets destroyed is beyond me.

    I will give photonic radars some time since they are estimating 5 years to get the software part done in which they can create SAMs that can work with them to hit aerial targets by combining OTH capabilities with terahertz detection and tracking If I read my two sources correctly to what they are implying where you can even hit the aircraft carrying the LRASM

    No need for any revolution to hit the carriers and the eventually released missiles with the existing means, hence why the direction of development is towards long range hypersonic or directly space stationed weapons. Russia is just a few years away of having a continuous field of observation both against aerodynamic and ballistic threats, and they already have a plethora of observation means of lower grades both air, land and space based. Western people are not used to inconvenient facts anymore and they prefer pretending that their bullying of third world countries resembles how a war against Russia would look like, they are dangerous in their proud ignorance.

    Lennox wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the phrase beyond light of sight weapon data link kinda weird? Literally anything with data link can de facto work beyond LOS (if it cant, what's the point anyway), and there are countless weapons with that capability already.

    Yeah, to make such a fuss about some data link is rather baffling...

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:41 am

    Lennox wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the phrase beyond light of sight weapon data link kinda weird? Literally anything with data link can de facto work beyond LOS (if it cant, what's the point anyway), and there are countless weapons with that capability already.

    It's a marketing ploy. They love using all these acronyms.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:48 am

    In 99% of all cases we will see a head-to-head engagement of the incoming missile and the interceptor. In that instance even a VW Golf can crash a Formula 1 car.

    Most of the time the interceptor SAMs are located around the target being defended so in that sense the speed of the interceptor missile is not critical... it is like the difference between soccer and tennis and cricket... in soccer the goalie stands in the net and the person kicking for goal tries to get the ball past the goalie into the net which is huge... on purpose so the goalie can't just stand in one place and stop everything... in tennis it is similar one person cannot cover the whole court at once so the person returning the ball will try to hit the ball into a part of the court the other player can't reach to return the ball. In comparison Cricket you are using a bat to protect wickets and you don't have to move the bat far or fast to cover the wickets.

    But as an interceptor flight range and flight speed means you can get to calculated intercept points faster and easier so a manouvering target is less of a problem for a faster interceptor because as new interception points are calculated a faster interceptor that is still powered with its engine running can get to a new interception point faster than a slower or shorter ranged missile. meaning more opportunities for an interception.

    That's why U.S stand off weapons have Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) Weapon Data Link capability - to target SAM systems like the S-500.

    AGM-158D (previously JASSM-ER+) WDL upgrade features a BLOS Weapon Data Link capability similar to the LRASM. LRASM features both LOS and BLOS data-link capability.

    A very early model TOR missile could shoot down such a threat even though it entered service in the 1980s...

    BTW line of sight and beyond line of sight are meaningless when talking about long range cruise missiles... they target coordinates rather than individual vehicles or targets and just fly to certain coordinates and then either explode or start to search for their target... Russian anti ship missiles did that in the late 1970s... Russian corvettes did it recently in Syria...

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:05 pm

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    2 x 77N6 or 4 x 40N6.

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    RTN
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    Post  RTN Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:41 am

    GarryB wrote:Inside the atmosphere you can use control surfaces for manouvering objects.

    Side thrusters are not as simple as it sounds... it needs to apply sideways force near the centre of gravity otherwise rather than shifting the missile sideways, it will just turn it one way or the other... and if the CG moves it might push the tail in the direction opposite to that you wish to head.

    How will a RV use side thrusters inside the atmosphere? They are moving at hypersonic speed.

    Here is the MK-5 RV. There are no side thrusters, there are no control surfaces.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:36 am

    Because those are dumb RVs that just fall on the trajectory they are released on by their warhead bus.

    Obviously the Avangard manouvering reentry vehicle will have propulsion or control surfaces or both so that it can manouver when it is released.

    BTW why do you think it is difficult for missiles to use side thrusters in the atmosphere.... when fired vertically into the air the TOR SAM uses side thruster rockets near its nose and tail to roll it into the direction of its target before its main motor lights up and accelerates it away after its target.

    The Dragon III ATGM used by the US only had side thruster rockets to propel it in flight...

    The TOR had side thruster rockets around its circumference so it could be rolled in any direction at launch but not all rockets were fired so as it approaches its target if the miss distance is going to be big, if the target is manouvering hard, remaining rocket thrusters can be fired to move the rocket closer to the target before the main warhead is set off.
    RTN
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    Post  RTN Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:Obviously the Avangard manouvering reentry vehicle will have propulsion or control surfaces or both so that it can manouver when it is released.
    That's your speculation. Avangard RV may or may not have control surfaces and side thrusters. Details about its design has not been released.
    GarryB wrote:BTW why do you think it is difficult for missiles to use side thrusters in the atmosphere....
    At those speeds, they’d add too much drag or be ripped off when maneuvering.

    MaRVs are pre-programmed to "bob and weave" or to take a deceptive trajectory at the appropriate points during re-entry. But their ability to do so is almost certainly pretty limited due to lack of energy available for radical maneuvers and the relatively short time between entry interface and detonation.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Yesterday at 5:05 am

    That's your speculation. Avangard RV may or may not have control surfaces and side thrusters. Details about its design has not been released.

    It is logical common sense... they have already said it reentered the earths atmosphere and accelerated from mach 26 to mach 27.... acceleration on earth is fixed as 1 g the distance it would have to drop to accelerate 1 mach is enormous and would be countered by the addition of air resistance which is relative to speed... think if it as standing in water... you can feel the water but it does not push you, but if you try to move in water it resists rather more than air does. The faster you try to move the more it resists. That is why more powerful ammo like 50 cal Browning rounds shatter when fired into water because the stopping force is enormous, while a low power pistol bullet will travel a few metres in water and generally retain its shape. If you accelerated that pistol bullet to mach 5 it would shatter too, and if you reduced the speed of the 50 cal bullet to subsonic it would actually be quite dangerous to people under water for quite a few metres.

    It is a manouvering RV optimised to evade enemy air defence... but you are saying it has no propulsion and no control surfaces to manouver... does it use alien anti gravity waves to move?

    It can't put up a sail because that would be a control surface.

    BTW I have never seen a B-21 but I can tell you it will have jet engines and it will have some way of shaping its wings to allow it to manouver in flight...

    At those speeds, they’d add too much drag or be ripped off when maneuvering.

    A side thruster is not a big long rocket tube that sticks out the sides of the RV like the bristles on a hair brush, they are internal sideways facing rockets that can be fired on command when they are pointing in a suitable direction.

    Also how many times did the US space shuttle fly into space and then come back into earths atmosphere and not have its wings ripped off?

    The do have some idea of the forces and stresses involved so a wing structure or control surface could be designed and made that does not break off and they can design it to generate as much drag as they want... in fact spacecraft bringing people back from orbit often use enormously high drag structures called parachutes... once a lot of the speed has bled off...


    MaRVs are pre-programmed to "bob and weave" or to take a deceptive trajectory at the appropriate points during re-entry.

    Why? When they were making them there was only one ABM system operational on the planet and that was around Moscow as allowed by the 1972 ABM treaty. There was not Soviet Union wide ABM system that needed to be penetrated.

    For the same reason there were no anti stealth fighter radars being developed in the 1950s because there were no stealth aircraft to look for.

    But their ability to do so is almost certainly pretty limited due to lack of energy available for radical maneuvers and the relatively short time between entry interface and detonation.

    Pick a flight path... a straight line from the US ICBM fields to Russia. There are three main areas they will want to target.... european Russia and northern russia and far east russia... an ICBM launched at targets in the far east wont be hitting any targets in the european part of russia though they might be targeted at far north targets on the way past.

    No target in the far north or far east would require evading an ABM system because they weren't defended with them.

    The missiles headed for european russia would be going for sevastopol and st petersberg and the northern fleet as well as moscow an a lot of population centres... the only warheads headed towards moscow will have to worry about an ABM system.

    MaRVs will be burning all their fuel to reach targets off the flight path of the missile they were launched from because that missile will be flying straight and will be aimed at its primary target what ever that might be. On the way warheads will be released to be directed at other targets and they might just need to drop down out of its ballistic path or more likely it might have to fly several hundred kms left or right.

    Another factor is that if you take a missile like Trident... it carries 6 warheads but they wont all be fired at the same target because what if the missile that is taking all the warheads for Moscow is intercepted?

    If you launch 24 Tridents from one submarine it might have four primary targets and those might be Moscow and St Petersberg and Sevastopol and Murmansk.... so of the 24 tridents in one sub 6 missiles will be directed at each of those four targets, but each of those missiles has 6 warheads on board, so for the six missiles headed to St Petersberg one warhead from each missile will actually be aimed at St Petersberg, one warhead might be aimed at Kaliningrad on its way over from the northern atlantic ocean, so that leaves four more warheads in each of the 6 missiles that are available for targets in the general area, like population centres or important sites like a major Army base/storage area, or a large airfield which might need 3 or 4 warheads to ensure it wont be operating any time soon.

    As you can probably tell from this there is a lot of coordination involved but the 6 missiles headed for Moscow will likely all be heading for Moscow because it has an ABM system with 100 interceptor missiles so that Trident submarine will fire 6 missiles each with 6 warheads at Moscow to ensure it gets hit hard and every Trident submarine will do the same and it will be the same with bombers and cruise missiles and land based ICBMs... lots of warheads from lots of different platforms will be cross targeted so that if one missile or one sub gets destroyed all the targets will get hit anyway.

    The Soviet ABM missiles generally used nuclear warheads so bobbing and weaving would not really be enough.

    The Soviet ABM was not intended to save Moscow... it was intended to delay its destruction so the leadership had time to launch the counter strike that destroyed the west.

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    RTN
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    Post  RTN Yesterday at 3:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is a manouvering RV optimised to evade enemy air defence... but you are saying it has no propulsion and no control surfaces to manouver... does it use alien anti gravity waves to move?
    Avangard is basically a MaRV. I didn't say MaRVs do not have propulsion, I said they don't have control surfaces because hypersonic speed will tear it apart.

    GarryB wrote:Another factor is that if you take a missile like Trident... it carries 6 warheads but they wont all be fired at the same target because what if the missile that is taking all the warheads for Moscow is intercepted?
    If A-135, S-500 or S-550 intercepts a Trident that will be a boost phase intercept. So none of the RVs will be released by the Trident. Then how will they fire any RV?

    GarryB wrote:On the way warheads will be released to be directed at other targets and they might just need to drop down out of its ballistic path or more likely it might have to fly several hundred kms left or right.
    If any MaRV, U.S or Russian can carry out such maneuvers that you just described then I'm afraid even a S500, S-550 won't be able to intercept them. A-135? Well.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Today at 12:44 am

    Avangard is basically a MaRV.

    No it isn't. It is more like a glider that can manouver and evade ABM systems.... that is its purpose.

    I didn't say MaRVs do not have propulsion, I said they don't have control surfaces because hypersonic speed will tear it apart.

    So how do the control surfaces on the US Space Shuttle remain in tact... it reenters the atmosphere at actual orbital speeds which is actually faster than most missile RVs...

    The people who make re entry vehicle would know how to make control surfaces that were effective and also strong enough to not be ripped off in the slip stream.

    If A-135, S-500 or S-550 intercepts a Trident that will be a boost phase intercept. So none of the RVs will be released by the Trident. Then how will they fire any RV?

    First of all the S-500 and S-550 are new and are going to make things rather different.... the A-135 and its replacements are located near moscow only, the missiles directed at Moscow wont carry on and hit anything else so the warheads can be deployed 1,000km short of reaching Moscow which means when the A-135 or later missiles are launched the warheads will have been released from the warhead bus and will need to be intercepted individually.

    This is also where the technique of different missiles hitting multiple targets comes in... if you had a Trident with 6 warheads all going for Moscow when released at 1,000km they will all be going to the same place so will remain relatively close together so a nuclear armed interceptor could get the all at once with one detonation. If the 24 missiles from one Trident submarine are launched on 24 slightly different flight paths so they can cover more targets then one warhead from each missile heading to Moscow will be coming from a rather different angle so one interceptor could not possibly get them all with one explosion.

    The huge advantage of the S-500 and S-550 however is that they can be forward deployed and use their range to intercept targets before the RVs are released, so instead of 6 targets per Trident plus decoys it is one target per trident.

    This is why Russian missiles use MaRVs and now Avangard gliders because they are released early on in the flight and fly separately to the target area, so to get the all at once you would have to engage them as they are launched... which was the idea behind the ABL... but its limited range would require the aircraft to fly within Russian air space to reach the ICBMs Russia would be launching and they are too vulnerable to fly that close.

    Russian ships like Cruisers and perhaps Destroyers will be able to carry S-500s which could intercept western missiles midcourse and get them while they are still in their warhead buses...

    If any MaRV, U.S or Russian can carry out such maneuvers that you just described then I'm afraid even a S500, S-550 won't be able to intercept them. A-135? Well.

    A minor change of flight path is not enough to evade interception... we are not talking 90 degree 100g turns... if the target is 100km to the side of the main flight path of the missile the warhead that is going for that target might be ejected from the warhead bus 1,000km short of the target and it might peel away from the straight flight path of the missile and turn perhaps 3 degrees and then continue 1,000km with that three degree turn meaning it is 100km off course and therefore directly heading towards its target... before the air defence system even started launching missiles to intercept they would see the original weapon bus passing 100km away from the target and they would also see the RV released to hit them which they could also launch missiles to intercept.

    The Avangard will be flying like a plane and performing turns left and right, speeding up and slowing down... a much harder target and moving at about 10km per second a half second miss means even a nuke warhead would not be effective unless you use really powerful nukes... in which case you will likely be doing as much damage as if you did nothing and let their missiles hit you.
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    Post  thegopnik Today at 3:16 am

    Avangard is basically a MaRV. I didn't say MaRVs do not have propulsion, I said they don't have control surfaces because hypersonic speed will tear it apart.

    HTV-2 and Avanagard are both HGVs one was a failure lasting 9 minutes of its planned 30 minutes flight due to temperatures reaching 3,500 degrees farenheit while the avangard was a success for handling 2000 celsius or 3600+ farenheit temperatures. One is carried by the Rubezh and the other was carried by the minotaur where both get released at 100km altitudes. MaRVs only get released after the ballistic missile re-enters to earths atmosphere. This is common knowledge here

    If A-135, S-500 or S-550 intercepts a Trident that will be a boost phase intercept. So none of the RVs will be released by the Trident. Then how will they fire any RV?

    There is midcourse interception but I am assuming that S-550(higher heights than S-500) and A-235(missile heights can do so) can perform that, S-500 deals with RVs assuming thats what they mean by hypersonic vehicles

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