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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:49 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:White House says US will ‘never’ agree to some Russian proposals


    The US has not yet given an official response to Russian proposals about security guarantees, but would “never” agree to some of them, the White House told reporters on Thursday.

    The same official said the Biden team had “not yet responded substantively” to Russia’s security proposals, but intended to do so during the January talks. While there were some areas the US “may be able to explore,” others were not in play, the official said.

    It's gonna be piecemeal to U.S/"West" perceived strategic advantage or nothing. Obviously also looking for Russia to mirror (or worse) whatever they accept.

    "Our security proposals are not meant to be piecemeal..." Well well well..

    Putin already spoke with a jaded tone in the latest press conference, sounding apologetic, justifying why Russia has to do this or do that, and in general just whining. Despite the statement's confrontational tone and language, it failed to leave an impression on me

    I get the impression that Putin is walking his words back. But then what was the point in saying them in the first place?

    This will of course only embolden Washington to give him a prompt rejection and hey presto. Now conflict has become even more likely.

    So. What next?

    Russian Su-35 edged out by US & French fighter jets

    https://www.rt.com/russia/544215-indonesia-russian-jet-fighters/

    Regarding the Sukhoi Su-35, with a heavy heart, yes, we have abandoned that plan. We can’t just keep talking about it,” Air Marshal Fadjar Prasetyo told reporters on Wednesday.

    Benar News quoted Prasetyo as saying that the decision was made because of a “protracted” acquisition process, and the fear that Indonesia may be hit by US sanctions for buying weapons from Moscow.

    The $1.1 billion deal to replace obsolete F-5 Tiger aircraft with Russia’s highly maneuverable jet fighters was signed in 2018, but the implementation of the contract stalled.

    Fadjar said Indonesia will be now looking at purchasing F-15EX Eagle IIs and French Dassault Rafale fighters. “The F-15 EX team has come to me and they told us if we signed an agreement today, we will receive the first units around 2027,” Fadjar said.

    CAATSA has worked great on the small players. Heavy Russian hardware export deals to new players can be counted by hand, if there is anything to count at all.

    I think Russia can do without Indonesia's 3/4 squadron of Su-35s and Kuwait's plans for T-90Ms; granted the later was a substantial contract.
    The point is though is that both these models are being ordered in serious amounts by the Russian military in any case.

    Other than them, which serious customer gave any regard to CAATSA? Egypt? Algeria? India? Turkey? Azerbaijan? Kazakhstan? China? Vietnam? Iran?
    No, contracts with them have all gone ahead or negotiations are proceeding as planned.

    Russia probably lost some perspective sales that we never heard of, but ultimately no serious country would have tolerated trading away its sovereignty on arms purchases this way, and only serious countries have serious cash to pay.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:00 pm

    Soon those countries will be fucked by USA and will beg for Sukhois.

    For exemple they obliged UAE to make peace with israel and tried to sell the f-4 disguised in f-35 so that israel keep a huge advantage over arabs military. Egypt learn the lesson for the past 50 years when they kept buying weapon they could never use against israel.

    Pakistan also went for Chinese weapons since US control what, when and why they can use US maade weapons.

    They even fucked france over those submarines lol1 .

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:


    Putin already spoke with a jaded tone in the latest press conference, sounding apologetic, justifying why Russia has to do this or do that, and in general just whining. Despite the statement's confrontational tone and language, it failed to leave an impression on me

    I get the impression that Putin is walking his words back. But then what was the point in saying them in the first place?

    This will of course only embolden Washington to give him a prompt rejection and hey presto. Now conflict has become even more likely.
    .


    I dont think that was directed so much at an international audience as much as it was to the domestic Russian military audience. It was a ministry of defense speech.

    It seems like he actually means what he saying and it's a last overture to the russian general staff and defense ministry about what is going to happen should washington reply with a negative.

    But he sort of indicated it would not matter anyway as the paper that washington signs is not worth the ink it's written with.

    And coupled with the buildup it's not about Ukraine at all. It's about NATO returning to 1997 positions.

    And now the general staff is briefed on what will occur very shortly. Liquidation of NATO sites in Ukraine and forceful removal of NATO on eastern European continental area.

    If you want to know how this will be done please study the october 16 to October 28 1962

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    Post  LMFS Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:39 pm

    If there is someone even more detached from reality and more vicious than Western supremacists, that must certainly be commie Putin haters. Fucking amazing level of bitterness, blind ideological thinking and lack of empathy.

    You know what? You deserve all the shit you eat, every bit and some more. 20 years of abject failure announcing imminent doom and chaos (after what your party did to Russia) and you still don't want to accept that:

    - You are DEAD wrong about pretty much everything
    - Marxist Theology is (unsurprisingly) not a perfect model of the totality, you are not all-knowers and the rest of us are not just poor idiots needing you to tell us what to think
    - It is profoundly twisted to rejoice anytime things seem to go wrong for your own country, because that ultimately proves you right

    Something really wrong with you guys...

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:58 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:


    Putin already spoke with a jaded tone in the latest press conference, sounding apologetic, justifying why Russia has to do this or do that, and in general just whining. Despite the statement's confrontational tone and language, it failed to leave an impression on me

    I get the impression that Putin is walking his words back. But then what was the point in saying them in the first place?

    This will of course only embolden Washington to give him a prompt rejection and hey presto. Now conflict has become even more likely.
    .


    I dont think that was directed so much at an international audience as much as it was to the domestic Russian military audience. It was a ministry of defense speech.

    It seems like he actually means what he saying and it's a last overture to the russian general staff and defense ministry about what is going to happen should washington reply with a negative.

    But he sort of indicated it would not matter anyway as the paper that washington signs is not worth the ink it's written with.

    And coupled with the buildup it's not about Ukraine at all. It's about NATO returning to 1997 positions.

    And now the general staff is briefed on what will occur very shortly. Liquidation of NATO sites in Ukraine and forceful removal of NATO on eastern European continental area.

    If you want to know how this will be done please study the october 16 to October 28 1962

    Na it was a no-show

    In between making all the grand pronouncements of not one step back! And accusing the US of furthering separatism in the Caucasus (which they did), you can hear his voice crackling, and the appeasing rhetoric of 'look all we did for you! US govt people stationed in our nuclear facilities!'

    As if Putin was blinking 3 times for Washington to take the hint and offer him a ladder to climb down the tree he scrambled on to.

    Which they did, no surprise.

    Putin suddenly got cold feet, no sooner than the 'ultimatum' (which was of course, not a real ultimatum) was issued.

    I'm no hardliner or anything. But if you're going to talk the talk then you better walk the walk, or rather the other guy better believe that you will. Otherwise it turns into a farce, and your position is weaker than before.

    No doubt Kiev is overjoicing and this will embolden them to now go ahead with their offensive.
    Maybe that was the plan, we'll see in due course.

    For now though I get the impression that Putin may be a cunning Judo black belt but he doesn't have the weight class or hitting power for when things get tough.
    Perhaps at this stage, he should move aside for someone else.

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    Post  LMFS Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:14 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Na it was a no-show

    In between making all the grand pronouncements of not one step back! And accusing the US of furthering separatism in the Caucasus (which they did), you can hear his voice crackling, and the appeasing rhetoric of 'look all we did for you! US govt people stationed in our nuclear facilities!'

    As if Putin was blinking 3 times for Washington to take the hint and offer him a ladder to climb down the tree he scrambled on to.

    Which they did, no surprise.

    Putin suddenly got cold feet, no sooner than the 'ultimatum' (which was of course, not a real ultimatum) was issued.

    I'm no hardliner or anything. But if you're going to talk the talk then you better walk the walk, or rather the other guy better believe that you will. Otherwise it turns into a farce, and your position is weaker than before.

    No doubt Kiev is overjoicing and this will embolden them to now go ahead with their offensive.
    Maybe that was the plan, we'll see in due course.

    For now though I get the impression that Putin may be a cunning Judo black belt but he doesn't have the weight class or hitting power for when things get tough.
    Perhaps at this stage, he should move aside for someone else.

    What a lot of narrative for an absolute non event... the guy just explained the situation and you don't like how he sounds, that is the whole story here? What counts is the tangible realities that Russia has built and that allow them to go to the offensive and not bluff. So wait to see what happens before projecting fantasies. This is not about the personality of anyone, is about objective elements of national power.

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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:57 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:


    Putin already spoke with a jaded tone in the latest press conference, sounding apologetic, justifying why Russia has to do this or do that, and in general just whining. Despite the statement's confrontational tone and language, it failed to leave an impression on me

    I get the impression that Putin is walking his words back. But then what was the point in saying them in the first place?

    This will of course only embolden Washington to give him a prompt rejection and hey presto. Now conflict has become even more likely.
    .


    I dont think that was directed so much at an international audience as much as it was to the domestic Russian military audience. It was a ministry of defense speech.

    It seems like he actually means what he saying and it's a last overture to the russian general staff and defense ministry about what is going to happen should washington reply with a negative.

    But he sort of indicated it would not matter anyway as the paper that washington signs is not worth the ink it's written with.

    And coupled with the buildup it's not about Ukraine at all. It's about NATO returning to 1997 positions.

    And now the general staff is briefed on what will occur very shortly. Liquidation of NATO sites in Ukraine and forceful removal of NATO on eastern European continental area.

    If you want to know how this will be done please study the october 16 to October 28 1962

    Na it was a no-show

    In between making all the grand pronouncements of not one step back! And accusing the US of furthering separatism in the Caucasus (which they did), you can hear his voice crackling, and the appeasing rhetoric of 'look all we did for you! US govt people stationed in our nuclear facilities!'

    As if Putin was blinking 3 times for Washington to take the hint and offer him a ladder to climb down the tree he scrambled on to.

    Which they did, no surprise.

    Putin suddenly got cold feet, no sooner than the 'ultimatum' (which was of course, not a real ultimatum) was issued.

    I'm no hardliner or anything. But if you're going to talk the talk then you better walk the walk, or rather the other guy better believe that you will. Otherwise it turns into a farce, and your position is weaker than before.

    No doubt Kiev is overjoicing and this will embolden them to now go ahead with their offensive.
    Maybe that was the plan, we'll see in due course.

    For now though I get the impression that Putin may be a cunning Judo black belt but he doesn't have the weight class or hitting power for when things get tough.
    Perhaps at this stage, he should move aside for someone else.

    The military command will make the demands in the end. Much like Georgia in 2008. If one thinks Putin is weak, Medvedev was weaker. But Putin knows what he is doing. The last re.arks were more internal obviously as it was covered by small media groups and barely anything large that westerners are aware of. Hell, huge portion in the US elite doesn't know beyond fox News, ABC News, CNN and msnbc
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:04 am

    Except... noone climbed down ... except the communists and with no added help from reagan and company I might add, politburo made an ass of themselves just fine by themselves.

    I did not see Putin stand down when he has the western and southern military districts ready to defend russia, and advanced weapons and defense that can backup what hes saying.

    I did see pathetic CCCP give crimea to banderastan, run away from Afghanistan although il give them that they didnt have guys hanging from the landing gears that time around, and they basically packed up and went home.

    Noone committed such an embarassing suicide as commies did.

    Putin doesn't strike me as that kind of loser

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    Post  ATLASCUB Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:10 am

    Germany reveals Nord Stream 2 plan

    https://www.rt.com/russia/544201-germany-plan-nord-stream/


    Germany’s new top diplomat, Annalena Baerbock, who once accused Russia of “blackmailing” Berlin to greenlight the gas link, has said that she and the country’s chancellor have reached an agreement on the project.

    Baerbock of Germany’s Green party told Die Ziet on Thursday that herself and Chancellor Olaf Scholz had discussed the pipeline and that the pair reached a consensus.

    “We have a shared position,” the diplomat reported. “It’s no secret that in the past we had different views on this issue. But as the chancellor has said, and I am now saying, the certification process should proceed on the basis of European law.

    Germans really doing this...

    Never underestimate the power that's the fear of losing their little project named the EU, which opportunistically expanded, and grew on the deathbed of the Soviet Union, former Russian empire (at the expense of). They achieved in peacetime what the Third Reich couldn't in war time.

    Even if you could make a case that by engaging in this strategy the Germans hurt the EU long term, they've made their decision in order to keep the Ukie, anti-Russian project alive. It's time Russia makes theirs. The illusion of a Russian/German axis has always led Russians stray. You make them beg you for the allegiance....only then, and only when they bend the knee should you pursue it. And for that to happen you've to break with them first, and hard.... and show them they are small players next to you.... and Russia still has long ways to go to achieve that - both economically, and militarily (conventional force projection). No such thing as equal term relationships. One power must dominate the relationship... just like the U.S with the E.U.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:09 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:Germany reveals Nord Stream 2 plan

    https://www.rt.com/russia/544201-germany-plan-nord-stream/

    Germany’s new top diplomat, Annalena Baerbock, who once accused Russia of “blackmailing” Berlin to greenlight the gas link, has said that she and the country’s chancellor have reached an agreement on the project.

    Baerbock of Germany’s Green party told Die Ziet on Thursday that herself and Chancellor Olaf Scholz had discussed the pipeline and that the pair reached a consensus.

    “We have a shared position,” the diplomat reported. “It’s no secret that in the past we had different views on this issue. But as the chancellor has said, and I am now saying, the certification process should proceed on the basis of European law

    Again the pathetic shill inviting herself to decide on energy matters, screwing Germany for the sake of the US agenda and making Russia laugh even harder... this level of delusion is hardly believable censored
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:31 am

    LMFS wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:Germany reveals Nord Stream 2 plan

    https://www.rt.com/russia/544201-germany-plan-nord-stream/

    Germany’s new top diplomat, Annalena Baerbock, who once accused Russia of “blackmailing” Berlin to greenlight the gas link, has said that she and the country’s chancellor have reached an agreement on the project.

    Baerbock of Germany’s Green party told Die Ziet on Thursday that herself and Chancellor Olaf Scholz had discussed the pipeline and that the pair reached a consensus.

    “We have a shared position,” the diplomat reported. “It’s no secret that in the past we had different views on this issue. But as the chancellor has said, and I am now saying, the certification process should proceed on the basis of European law

    Again the pathetic shill inviting herself to decide on energy matters, screwing Germany for the sake of the US agenda and making Russia laugh even harder... this level of delusion is hardly believable censored

    EU solidarity. Hilarious. As if the solidarity of some satrapies is of concern to Russia. Their posturing will not get them Russian
    gas for $40 per thousand cubic meters on their fraudulent spot "market". There is no indication of any Russian submission on this
    front whatsoever. Russia is using the letter of the contracts to make sure that the EU eats the shit it was trying to force feed to
    Russia.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:42 am

    Who in the world cares about the suicidal tendencies of the EU? America never did so why should Russia?

    Just redirect the gas to china, the coal and load up the LNG to India. EU can buy too, but the LNG contracts will probably be at capacity if they dont hurry up. If not they can buy uncle Sam's freedom gas for triple the 2100 euro per cm gas price, and they can pay that per barrel.

    I actually want to see this so I can laugh, at how fast the EU drove down the European economy , albeit it wasnt as quick as the third reich, but will have the same consequences.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:45 am

    Matter of fact get on with it and ban smartphones and swift.

    Honestly, id love to see russian smartphones and computers as well as credit cards and bank wires with countries who actually trade.

    Russia can easily satisfy its domestic market and have good quality products for its citizens, trade the surplus away, and live happily ever after debt free with cash stockpiled for its future children

    Ban titanium and metal exports and wean the west off the teet of the russian motherland.

    Honestly putin played this perfectly gradually making the russian economy independent and bulletproof and building a savings account for the future

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:00 am

    https://www.eurofer.eu/publications/position-papers/joint-statement-by-industrial-energy-consumers-on-unbearably-high-energy-prices/


    😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

    You guys have to read this

    This is watching the band play to the titanic, while the crew is rearranging chairs because the lifeboats are out

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:25 am


    If contract for Power of Siberia 2 gets signed during Beijing Olympics it will overshadow any sports result Euros might make there (and cause some hilarious meltdowns) Cool

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:13 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:Except... noone climbed down ... except the communists and with no added help from reagan and company I might add, politburo made an ass of themselves just fine by themselves.

    I did not see Putin stand down when he has the western and southern military districts ready to defend russia, and advanced weapons and defense that can backup what hes saying.

    I did see pathetic CCCP give crimea to banderastan, run away from Afghanistan although il give them that they didnt have guys hanging from the landing gears that time around, and they basically packed up and went home.

    Noone committed such an embarassing suicide as commies did.

    Putin doesn't strike me as that kind of loser

    It wasn't the commies who spent the last 25 years talking about 'our Western partners' even when they're doing some not very nice things, and who has been trying to convince in utter futility, all these countries to drop sanctions, even though he knows it will never happen. The commies had sanctions on them as well. Did it bother them, did they complain about it?

    I am excluding Gorby of course because in fact everything you're talking about is pretty much related just to him

    The trouble is that the Russian state has issued a list of demands to Washington that it knew would be rejected, but that would place them in a position where they won't be able to outright say that, if done right

    Now Putin comes along and starts explaining, justifying, saying oi vei, woe to me, we're cornered rats. Of course the message conveyed to Washington now would be 'hey, throw us a bone already'.
    What's there to explain? You know why you're doing this, the West knows why you're doing this, your people know why you're doing this, or can figure it out. Make the demands and then stay silent.

    Putin's presser directly contradicts the intention of the earlier statements, which was to exactly trap the US. If that's Russia's position so then stick to it, and if you say you won't accept a compromise, but then just a couple days later start hinting that this is what you want, then that just makes everything look like bluster and theater. It also suggests you'd be willing to cave yet further, past any red lines.

    Russia should take a page out of Iran's book.

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:14 am



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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:22 am

    Ukraine will ignore it cause EU is even weaker entity than Ukraine.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:01 am

    Would be interesting to see APS equipped specialized tank battalion lead the charge into a fortified defensive emplacement , rendering the atgm and javelins of the enemy totally useless, and then followed up by a more massive regularize tank battalion to mop up what is left.

    The problem is that in this scenario the Donbass and Lugansk regions are not likely to be driving forward with tanks at all... I suspect it will be more a case of Kiev forces moving forward trying to make progress under the cover of an artillery barrage... but then I suspect the rebels will lure their armour into traps and deal with their artillery too... they have seen the effect of drones and should be capable of developing and using their own effectively against Kievs forces.

    On a battlefield with enemy tanks I would thing the rebels are smart enough to use IR camouflage from above and IR decoys on the ground so those Javelins are only useful in manual direct fire mode, where their lack of armour penetration and very low speed will be a real problem for them.

    It's gonna be piecemeal to U.S/"West" perceived strategic advantage or nothing. Obviously also looking for Russia to mirror (or worse) whatever they accept.

    Putin didn't fall from the sky in the last shower of rain... he never would have expected the US to agree to any let alone all of what he said... that is not important.

    What is important is that Putin has made clear his red lines, so if they are crossed he can react rather more quickly than he normally does because in this case western shitfuckery would be random out of the blue surprises to normal rational people.

    Biden can ignore the land mines as he pleases, but the consequences will be quite real.

    CAATSA has worked great on the small players. Heavy Russian hardware export deals to new players can be counted by hand, if there is anything to count at all.

    Yes, in this case their blackmail is working well.

    They don't have the beans to be so tough on India, but against Indonesia they are real heros.


    Reality hits different, I know.

    We always knew the west fights dirty... the whole five eyes programme is not directed at the Russians, it is directed at Americas allies because knowledge is power and if you know which politician or diplomat is dirty then you can use that to get what you want.

    Right now the board is tipped in the wests favour, but the US is broken and running at that cliff edge thinking it can fly because it believes its own BS propaganda... just further evidence that Russia and China should avoid the EU and US as much as they can... trade yet, but don't let them infect you with hate and evil.

    If Russia supplies Pantsirs to the Donbass, which it will not be afraid to do, then these
    toy planes will not even reach their targets. But Russia does not even have to supply Pantsirs. The Donbass defenders have
    shown they have effective EW ability against Ukrian drone operations. There is no reason to think that Ukria will be able to
    defeat this and Russia will make sure that no such scenario comes into reality.

    Early detection is the key, so once you find it... the cheapest way to kill it would probably be a suicide drone... fly up and either shoot it down or ram it with a warhead in your nose.

    I get the impression that Putin is walking his words back. But then what was the point in saying them in the first place?

    I think it is perfectly reasonable to tell your enemies what you think is acceptable and what is not so they know when they do something that they will get a reaction from Russia over this and can't claim to have not known it was something Russia thinks is important.

    I don't think he ever believed they would say... yup, fine... those are your red lines and we will keep away from them to keep you happy.

    He is just saying, you **** with us and it should not be a surprise when we **** back.

    They even fucked france over those submarines

    Even New Zealand was told we were not allowed to sell our A-4 Skyhawks to just anyone and had to get US approval... fucking Skyhawks!!!


    But he sort of indicated it would not matter anyway as the paper that washington signs is not worth the ink it's written with.

    Exactly... after a decade and a half he is clearly finished chasing western approval and realises what cheating lying scum they are.

    Putin is a religious man so of course he recognises evil.

    you can hear his voice crackling, and the appeasing rhetoric of 'look all we did for you! US govt people stationed in our nuclear facilities!'

    Even supply routes to support US and HATO operations in Afghanistan for goodness sake...

    As if Putin was blinking 3 times for Washington to take the hint and offer him a ladder to climb down the tree he scrambled on to.

    He knows they would pull it away as soon as he committed to stepping on.


    No doubt Kiev is overjoicing and this will embolden them to now go ahead with their offensive.

    The rebels will rip them a new one... I hope they do, but they don't have the balls.

    Perhaps at this stage, he should move aside for someone else.

    People keep saying that but never mention anyone who could take his place.

    You make them beg you for the allegiance....only then, and only when they bend the knee should you pursue it.

    See, that is your problem... you think this is a war... if Germany does not want cheap energy, Russia does not have to bust a gut to force them. Germany can pay more for their gas.... Gazprom is fine with that.

    But this time round if the Orcs steal gas Russia will just consider it delivered and the intended customer for that gas can work it out with the thieves.


    Again the pathetic shill inviting herself to decide on energy matters, screwing Germany for the sake of the US agenda and making Russia laugh even harder... this level of delusion is hardly believable

    And when their industry stops working because gas is too expensive then her government will likely collapse... or maybe Germans are such pussies now they will happily freeze for Ukraine and the US... quite pathetic really...

    It is funny that Hungary will accept Sputnik V and refuse HATO troops on its land to escalate things... almost as if they have a spine... not to be found anywhere else in the EU.

    I actually want to see this so I can laugh, at how fast the EU drove down the European economy

    With all the BS coming from Atlasclub it is amusing that they don't understand the double edged nature of power... the US dollar being the international currency gave it power and the US power, but using it as a weapon has reduced its use and therefore reduced its power.

    Russia has been very careful in the past not to use energy as a weapon because it earns money and using it as a weapon would force its customers to find alternatives.

    Ironically it is the west using its customer status as a weapon, but that ignores that there are other customers on the planet that will happily buy Russian gas if they don't want it and the cost to them of not getting cheap Russian gas will effect their economies in a rather negative way.

    Ironically EU use of gas as a weapon has led to massive increases in price for the gas they want to buy so Russia is benefiting enormously from their abuse, but of course the end result will be that Russian gas... any gas will be too expensive and Europe will need to spend billions or trillions finding an affordable reliable alternative, which wont help Russia in the short term but of course they will find other customers happy to get it at three times the price that the EU would have been paying.

    Wrap it up in any pretty paper you like but the EU just stabbed itself... which is no real surprise because the other part of the game is to get them to stab themselves again regarding China so the silk road transport links from the EU to Asia are disrupted or damaged... it is all the USs plan to keep the EU and Russia and the EU and China as enemies... because as partners there is no options for the US... no benefits for the US.

    Atlasclub can claim Russia is stupid and the EU is a winner... but it is the US that is screwing the EU... which is hilarious... I think it is great.

    Russia will be fine... they will find customers for their gas reserves, but this bullshit stops Russia and the EU becoming mates... which might be good for the EU but will be catastrophic for Russia... how much transgender BS will they take?

    Honestly putin played this perfectly gradually making the russian economy independent and bulletproof and building a savings account for the future

    It is like you are finding out the local trailer trash was going to marry your son but her parents, who are devil worshipping child molesting serial rapists and serial murderers don't like his blue eyes and are sabotaging the relationship...

    It wasn't the commies who spent the last 25 years talking about 'our Western partners' even when they're doing some not very nice things, and who has been trying to convince in utter futility, all these countries to drop sanctions, even though he knows it will never happen. The commies had sanctions on them as well. Did it bother them, did they complain about it?

    Russia gave them every chance in the book, and allowed different political parties in each of these countries to have a go and all of them rejected Russia... which means now when Russia rejects the west there is no way a shit like Navalny can say they want to be friends and we just wouldn't let them in... the only way they wanted in is through the door with an ax like Jack Nicholson in the Shining...

    Russia should take a page out of Iran's book.

    Iran has no cards to play.

    Russia needs to play with cards open and on the table because they are not playing winner takes all... they are playing leave me be or I will **** you and everything you have... all the while knowing you will take me with you.

    Ukraine will ignore it cause EU is even weaker entity than Ukraine.

    This is huge... as far as the west was concerned Frankensteins monster was their fair haired boy who could do no wrong... now they have started to tell it to behave... almost as if their might be consequences....

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:52 am

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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:It wasn't the commies who spent the last 25 years talking about 'our Western partners' even when they're doing some not very nice things, and who has been trying to convince in utter futility, all these countries to drop sanctions, even though he knows it will never happen. The commies had sanctions on them as well. Did it bother them, did they complain about it?

    Russia had no interest in being belligerent while it did not have the elements of power needed to face the West. That you systematically take yourself for so much smarter than the Russia security establishment is frankly dubious in itself, in view of the work done in the last 20 years, the development of the state and the changing balance of power in its favour vs the West, to think so is simply stupid. You pay attention to words and not to deeds, you judge personality traits of one person instead of state policy. Tabloid gossip instead of analysis, sorry.

    I am excluding Gorby of course because in fact everything you're talking about is pretty much related just to him

    Bolsheviks took more care in destroying the Russian empire and preventing it from rising again than in implementing their beautiful ideals. Lenin gave away huge masses of lands from Russia and kicked off all kinds of nationalisms to antagonize it. Khrushev gave Crimea to Ukraine illegally. Yeltsin was also a commie, if you don't remember. There was a great statesman among them all (the one accused of killing the Revolution BTW) and that was Stalin, who got himself assassinated by his "pals". So he was more an exception than a norm, and so the SU had a truly pathetic end despite its huge resources. Without communism no WWII would have been viable for the West either. In the end communism just weakened Russia and provoked absolutely terrible losses that drained the country's population and resources and erased what was conquered in preceding centuries, just look at the map to see their "achievements".

    The trouble is that the Russian state has issued a list of demands to Washington that it knew would be rejected, but that would place them in a position where they won't be able to outright say that, if done right

    Again your gossip fails to address the issue. The relevant fact is that Russia has the economic and military elements needed to show the middle finger to the West, that is what has changed, not the government, which is composed by professional people that know what to do and has been knowing for ages what the West is about and that it can't be trusted at all. If for instance in 2002 after they withdrew from ABM Russia had not done anything, you could have a valid argument about their leadership being naive simpletons, but they started straight away with the development of the weapons that now allow them to throw demands to the West. These are FACTS. So you have the proof that there was never confidence in the "partners", but just the diplomacy, prudence, discipline and patience needed to win time. If the West now refuses to talk constructively, Russia and China will act, because they did the right things for the last 20 years instead of talking loud and behaving stupid. This is how states are run and these emotional fairy tales of yours are completely useless in that regard.

    Now Putin comes along and starts explaining, justifying, saying oi vei, woe to me, we're cornered rats. Of course the message conveyed to Washington now would be 'hey, throw us a bone already'.
    What's there to explain? You know why you're doing this, the West knows why you're doing this, your people know why you're doing this, or can figure it out. Make the demands and then stay silent.

    Putin's presser directly contradicts the intention of the earlier statements, which was to exactly trap the US. If that's Russia's position so then stick to it, and if you say you won't accept a compromise, but then just a couple days later start hinting that this is what you want, then that just makes everything look like bluster and theater. It also suggests you'd be willing to cave yet further, past any red lines.

    What a cheesy, manipulative narrative you made, almost British level Laughing

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    Post  JohninMK Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:08 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    What a cheesy, manipulative narrative you made, almost British level Laughing

    Could do without the blanket insult.

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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:31 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    What a cheesy, manipulative narrative you made, almost British level Laughing

    Could do without the blanket insult.

    It is a factual statement. The British float on BS narratives about Russia and clearly another BS narrative is being
    pushed about Putin's alleged incompetence in handling western aggression and economic sabotage. That's right,
    the leader who oversaw Russia overcoming the worst depression in modern history, escaping economic distortions
    introduced during the 1990s by "palpable humanitarian" Yeltsin, and rebuilding of the Russian military to a level that
    is giving NATzO cold sweats, is somehow a massive fail compared to the parade of criminal clowns before him. I
    wonder what Zyuganov would have "achieved". The clown who prevented the KPRF from reforming and becoming a
    solid second party in Russia.

    All I see from the critics is bleating about Russia fail when there is a win.

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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:42 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Could do without the blanket insult.

    Yeah, sorry if you felt offended, no blanket insult against decent British people was intended. I was just referring to a very characteristic style of your establishment and press that is based on cheap sensationalism, I thought the intent would be understood without need for disclaimers...

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    Post  Hole Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:06 pm

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #30 - Page 38 Fhx_e010

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