The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

#BREAKING: Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Ryabkov: If NATO and the United States do not respond to Russia's demand for security guarantees, a military response will follow, there will be a new round of confrontation- RIA

Putin offers UK talks on ending NATO expansion

https://www.rt.com/russia/543083-putin-boris-johnson-nato-talks/

The call took place on Monday, a week after Moscow floated the notion of a legally binding treaty offering firm guarantees that NATO would not expand any further east, or place offensive weapons in member countries bordering Russia. Putin informed Johnson that Russia is preparing draft documents to that effect already, and that negotiations need to begin “immediately.”

NATO and Russia. You know how this ends.

T-80BVM? Geolocated to near Novomoskovsk
https://twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/status/1470453426291195906

Edit: Think it could be this, nevermind: https://militaryleak.com/2021/12/12/russian-naval-pacific-fleet-receives-more-upgraded-t-80bvm-main-battle-tanks/

PVO LNR landed and captured Ukrainian drone Mavic 2 with jamming. Drone is carrying explosive device.

kvs wrote:While delusional western propagandists spout tin foil hat theories how Putin is desperate to invade Ukria because it is
slipping from his grasp into the bosom of freedom, NATzO, in reality it is the Kiev regime that is slipping since its anti-Russian
project is totally bankrupt.   After 7 years of hate spew and gross human rights violations, the Kiev regime has achieved
nothing.   Instead Ukria's economy now fully flushing down the toilet and people are literally freezing in the dark.   It is
obvious that baiting Russia into an invasion is their only option left to launder their failure.   They need to unload their
epic failure onto Russia.   See, them Moskals invaded and ruined our glorious achievements.

NATzO itself is also desperate.   It cannot afford to maintain the Ukria failed state.  So it needs to dump it back into Russia's
lap and have Russia spend $200 billion per year to keep it from totally disintegrating.   Both NATzO and its quislings in Kiev
are utterly delusional.   No amount of their cheesy propaganda is going to get Russia to invade and take care of this
tar baby.   The Kiev regime forces are not going to roll over the Donbass and crush it like a bug.   Javelins, Stingers and
Bairaktars are not going to bring them victory.   Also, there was a referendum in the Donbass about joining Russia and
the majority voted against reunification.   So Russia is not obliged to save the Donbass at all costs and is not going to
invade to achieve reunification.   Those residents of the Donbass who got Russian passports can move to Russia.   They
are more useful as a resource than the Donbass real estate.   Coal mines and chintzy "shale" gas deposits are nothing to
write home about.  

When was that? I am not aware of anything like that.
Please provide a link.

Link

They did not pose the question whether to reunify with Russia because it was not popular and support for this is still low.

kvs wrote:

Link

They did not pose the question whether to reunify with Russia because it was not popular and support for this is still low.

Oh man, that is the 2014 the self-determination referendum. I thought you were talking about some recent one that I did not hear about.

Anyways, I am pretty sure that today, the majority of LNR/DNR population will choose reunification with Russia if a fresh referendum is held and the question is asked directly.

https://dan-news.info/official/rezultaty-oprosa-na-temu-pochemu-vy-podderzhivaete-dnr/

It was this 2015 opinion poll that shows the support level for joining Russia: 10%. It has probably increased since then.

You have to ignore western and Ukrainian propaganda.... these so called rebels are not Russians and don't want to become Russians.... they just want to be able to speak Russian.

Think of it as a case of Canada deciding that French will be the only accepted language of Canada and no other languages will be acceptable for voting or for dealing with police and teachers and nurses and doctors and government officials. I would guess the English speaking Canadians would rebel against such a stupid law and would refuse to be forced to speak French in what they consider to be their own country.

Now to their south there is a large country that also speaks english and it would be in the interests of those english speaking canadians to get US citizenship in case the canadian government starts with internment camps for people who don't speak french.

This does not mean the english speaking canadians want to become Americans or that they want to join America as a new state or that they want the English to come over and invade or to create an independent republic for the UK in Canada... they just want their leaders to **** off and let them speak the languages they speak now and repeal that stupid law.

Now after five or six years of being shelled and bombed by those french canadians they might have decided they don't want to get back together with a country of people that would do such a thing to them so maybe they might be wanting an autonomous english speaking canadian republic with its own rules etc etc... but I very much doubt they would want to be ruled by the US or UK... it was getting told what to do by idiots that started this.

Or imagine the US gone even more woke that bans english and only native american languages will be recognised... the english speaking americans wont want the UK to come over and save them or take over or become a region ruled by the UK... they would accept help but are not looking to join any other country because as far as they are concerned they are a country already and whether that country is split in two or not they don't see themselves as English or Russian.

Russia should simply take over Ukraine, it will send the right message to all the European countries. Basically the West wants to use one Slavic nation against the other. They want to see Slavs dead. That's both the long and short of it.

Russia should simply take over Ukraine, it will send the right message to all the European countries.

That would be stupid.... even if it worked perfectly WTF is Russia going to do with all of the Ukraine?

It would cost trillions to fix and will never consider itself to be Russian.... let them sort their own shit out.

Let the seperatist regions have a referendum to become separate autonomous regions and then open the Russian border with these regions and trade with them.

That alone would give these small regions a useful economy... any further shelling from their neighbour and Russia can send "peacekeepers" to the area which can respond immediately and directly to any attacks or incursions, and if they don't calm down quickly then escalations to higher level HQs and bases can be deflowered with standoff weapons.

I am sure there are a lot of things that piss off the Russians that the west does so when the west inevitably imposes harsh sanctions they can respond by eliminating a lot of those things that annoy them about the west.

Either Kiev will attack, or just more bullshit till the next election in the Ukraine... where there might be a regime that will move forward with talks as their only real option.

Russia is not in any hurry.

You have to ignore western and Ukrainian propaganda.... these so called rebels are not Russians and don't want to become Russians.... they just want to be able to speak Russian.

They are Russians by nationality, not just russian speaking. Now those Russians in LDNR are more Russians, that Russians in Russia. More hard core Russians.

Sujoy wrote:Russia should simply take over Ukraine, it will send the right message to all the European countries. Basically the West wants to use one Slavic nation against the other. They want to see Slavs dead. That's both the long and short of it.

No need for that. Ukraine is half dead already its just a matter of time when will the Kiev regime collapse with their economy. Europe has its own problems so i dont believe they will send billions of euros to kiev. US will send them some rusty guns and rockets and thats all....

Sujoy wrote:Russia should simply take over Ukraine, it will send the right message to all the European countries. Basically the West wants to use one Slavic nation against the other. They want to see Slavs dead. That's both the long and short of it.

And these Slavic countries are more than happy to oblige. As long as their oligarchs keep their villas in southern France, their bank accounts in Switzerland and their budgets get money from the EU

How can you fix stupid? You can't, and it's not Russia's problem. In all these Czechia's, Poland's, Slovakia's young people are taught to thumb their nose up at Russia from an early age. All the history books and media paint Russia in the worst possible light, the Great Satan, the great oppressor. You should have seen the shit-storm on Twitter when Slovakia decided to buy the Sputnik vaccine. It was full of Slovak and Czech trolls talking about Novichok, Putin, Soviet occupation and how Russia can't possibly have come up with a vaccine by itself.
Maybe these are just paid trolls, who knows, but there are more of them than reasonable people commenting. And the reasonable people are all of the older generation, not the younger one.
There is no perspective for co-operation with such countries. You hardly have anyone from them coming from them to Russia, because they are convinced that Russia is a poor miserable hell-hole. You have more foreigners coming to Russia for tourism, doing business or living from France, Britain and Germany than you do from all the ex-Warsaw Pact put together. Funny that.
Unfortunately young people from Eastern Europe know nothing about us, nothing about the country nowadays, and don't speak the language. It's next to impossible to change the situation.

Russia should ignore all these countries, and do business, build ties with countries that are open to that. In Europe these countries are Hungary, Serbia, Belarus, and that's about it. Everyone else is either hostile or is not hostile but will let the Russophobe elites in the EU decide upon their relations with Russia for them as they themselves don't have enough sovereignty or solvency - like Bulgaria and Greece.

Which ultimately means that Russia should expand ties with the rest of the world outside Europe. Euro-centrism is a dead end for Russia in the 21st century, so is an orientation towards building ties with Slavic nations. Those Slavic nations have all bought into Gucci and McDonalds and desire nothing else.

In fairness Python, as the guys from Duran said, EU is a shithole and is on its way out anyway. Don't know when but will happen.

kvs wrote:https://dan-news.info/official/rezultaty-oprosa-na-temu-pochemu-vy-podderzhivaete-dnr/

It was this 2015 opinion poll that shows the support level for joining Russia: 10%.  It has probably increased since then.

Russia never proposed neither is interested by taking the Donbass.

They want it as a bufger zone. Just like Ukraine should be a buffer zone.

Having Nato countries on all its western border would lead to a conflict very rapidely. And the one involved would be just eastern nato countries and Russia. US wouldn't risk a nuclear war and UK, france and Germany wouldn't move witjout US order.

US = 90% of nato. And they don't want to face directly Russia. So that nato russia war will never happen anyway.

flamming_python wrote:And these Slavic countries are more than happy to oblige. As long as their oligarchs keep their villas in southern France, their bank accounts in Switzerland and their budgets get money from the EU

This is both sad and tragic.

I often here Czechs bad mouthing Russians. I also notice that the contract for MRO of Russian helicopters in Asia is a Czech company.

flamming_python wrote:You have more foreigners coming to Russia for tourism, doing business or living from France, Britain and Germany than you do from all the ex-Warsaw Pact put together. Funny that.

This is one of the reason why Western sanctions on Russia do not work.

kvs wrote:

Link

It was this 2015 opinion poll that shows the support level for joining Russia: 10%.  It has probably increased since then.

Thanks for the link.

Funny, the most important and relevant question was never asked: "Would you like integration with Russian Federation"?

flamming_python wrote:

Sujoy wrote:Russia should simply take over Ukraine, it will send the right message to all the European countries. Basically the West wants to use one Slavic nation against the other. They want to see Slavs dead. That's both the long and short of it.

And these Slavic countries are more than happy to oblige. As long as their oligarchs keep their villas in southern France, their bank accounts in Switzerland and their budgets get money from the EU

How can you fix stupid? You can't, and it's not Russia's problem. In all these Czechia's, Poland's, Slovakia's young people are taught to thumb their nose up at Russia from an early age. All the history books and media paint Russia in the worst possible light, the Great Satan, the great oppressor. You should have seen the shit-storm on Twitter when Slovakia decided to buy the Sputnik vaccine. It was full of Slovak and Czech trolls talking about Novichok, Putin, Soviet occupation and how Russia can't possibly have come up with a vaccine by itself.
Maybe these are just paid trolls, who knows, but there are more of them than reasonable people commenting. And the reasonable people are all of the older generation, not the younger one.
There is no perspective for co-operation with such countries. You hardly have anyone from them coming from them to Russia, because they are convinced that Russia is a poor miserable hell-hole. You have more foreigners coming to Russia for tourism, doing business or living from France, Britain and Germany than you do from all the ex-Warsaw Pact put together. Funny that.
Unfortunately young people from Eastern Europe know nothing about us, nothing about the country nowadays, and don't speak the language. It's next to impossible to change the situation.

Russia should ignore all these countries, and do business, build ties with countries that are open to that. In Europe these countries are Hungary, Serbia, Belarus, and that's about it. Everyone else is either hostile or is not hostile but will let the Russophobe elites in the EU decide upon their relations with Russia for them as they themselves don't have enough sovereignty or solvency - like Bulgaria and Greece.

Which ultimately means that Russia should expand ties with the rest of the world outside Europe. Euro-centrism is a dead end for Russia in the 21st century, so is an orientation towards building ties with Slavic nations. Those Slavic nations have all bought into Gucci and McDonalds and desire nothing else.

Python,

Please overcome this defeatist attitude and mentality.
Difficulties and great challenges exist. But, nothing is lost forever.
All you need is to put huge efforts over a long period of time and everything will be taken back and maybe more.
A huge mental and educational "Operation Bagration" is needed to undo all the brainwashing damage done over the years.
Sometimes circumstances help. Sometimes your opponents make mistakes and pay for it.

There are still good numbers of still mentally sane and healthy thinking people in those places you mentioned. The aim is to slowly and gradually increase those numbers despite all the difficulties.
Yourself, you have excellent debating and explaining skills. And with your presence on forums like this one, you are already bringing a small contribution to the uphill battle.

https://mronline.org/2021/12/11/the-maidan-massacre-in-ukraine/?fbclid=IwAR28lZsGpqsOuCblNE2MtSTuyGbrPaZomPAEezXfkUKMaCFBrcRMr7Czr2c

The Maidan massacre in Ukraine: revelations from trials and investigations

Dozens of members and commanders from government sniper units testified at the trial as prosecution witnesses. Yet their testimony showed that their units were ordered to deploy to government-controlled areas near the Maidan in order to locate and neutralize snipers, who in turn killed or wounded the Berkut policemen. They testified that, after their arrival, mass shooting practically stopped, yet that they came under fire from Maidan-controlled buildings.

The government investigation had earlier determined that Yanukovych government snipers could be held responsible for the death of only a single Maidan protester. Meanwhile, two other demonstrators who had been nearby during his killing, testified that he, too, was shot from a Maidan-controlled building. Photos and forensic examinations by government experts revealed that he was shot in the back from a steep angle by a corroded bullet as he faced the government positions.

Yet despite the overwhelming evidence, the investigation ultimately denied that there were snipers in Maidan-controlled buildings. It is striking that, almost eight years after one of the best-documented cases of mass murder in history, nobody is convicted or under arrest for the Maidan massacre.