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    Western propaganda

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:11 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Hole wrote:There was a german expert analysing the whole explosion for the media. You can see flashes of fireworks in the first explosion, then the ammonium nitrate exploded and afterwards oil caught fire and resulted in the black smoke.

    One remark to andalusia about the eastward expansion of NATO. Russia accepted the expansion of some NATO elements into eastern germany, nothing more.

    Not to nit pick, but this expert is not an expert.   The colour was not black it was clearly red-brown.   That is the NO2 released in vast quantities
    from the detonation of NH4NO3.   It is not an option or a speculation, it is physics fact.   NO2 is what gives jet exhaust its brownish colour.  

    Also, oil would not produce a red-brown mushroom cloud since it does not detonate, but burns.   Any oil burning had no impact in this case.
    It was all due to NH4NO3 detonating.  

    As for the warehouse security, we won't know if the guard(s) were murdered since there is likely no body left to do an autopsy on.   And
    the NH4NO3 would not spontaneously detonate or even catch fire.

    The guy was explaining exakty this, he just emphasized the black smoke after the huge explosion and explained that it came from the burning of organic material, likely oil, because some media dudes were claiming that this was proof of some bomb being used.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:52 am

    I suspect what is happening is that such incidents (ie westerners getting arrested and locked up in Russia and being given prison terms) is possibly a ploy to try and get some of the Russians in US prisons swapped.

    If this is the case then to be fair they need to arrest people on silly nothing charges and then give them stiff sentences... otherwise they will be trading innocent Russians kept as political play toys in the US prison system for real western criminals that should be behind bars anyway.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:39 pm

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/flirtingwithstalin

    Check out the above revisionist anti-Russian drivel. Clearly cultural Trotskyism has taken over the precious west.

    While 1917 saw a cultural flowering in Russia, the post-Soviet intelligentsia has failed to articulate a liberal vision and produced only shallow art.

    The only thing that flowered after 1917 was the civil war that claimed the lives of over 10 million people and the appearance
    of all sorts of degeneracy posing as art, architecture and philosophical "thought". Trotsky and his merry band of Russia haters
    invested fully breaking up Russia. That included giving away vast tracts of Russia including millions of Russians to faked up
    "republics" such as Ukraine. Nobody asked the Russians living on their ancestral land if they wanted to be Ukrainians or Estonians, etc.
    The 1954 gift of Crimea to Ukraine was part of this criminal social engineering.

    The whole postwar period in Russian history is viewed through the prism of the cold war “initiated by the United States of America.” The textbook does not deny Stalin’s repressions; it justifies them. The concentration of power in Stalin’s hands suited the country; indeed, conditions of the time “demanded” it. “The domestic politics of the Soviet Union after the war fulfilled the tasks of mobilisation which the government set. In the circumstances of the cold war… democratisation was not an option for Stalin.”

    Hilarious nonsense. The power was concentrated at the top by the Bolshies. Stalin functioned within the system they created.
    You just don't like the fact that your favourite Bolshies got displaced from the social engineering anti-Russian power. Thanks
    to Stalin, the USSR was able to defeat the Nazis. With Trotsky in charge and his spend every last gram of Soviet resources on
    world revolution BS, the USSR would not have been able to even defend Moscow. I guess Trotsky would have surrendered Soviet
    (Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian) land to the Nazis to appease them. But they would have taken the lot.

    Now we have seen this ambition realised in the recent war against Georgia. For the first time since the end of the Soviet Union, Russia has asserted itself militarily in the post-Soviet space and played out its imperial ambitions with tanks and grenade launchers. Russia’s invasion was intended to send an unequivocal message to other former Soviet republics: “we can and will stop Nato’s eastward advance.” In the first few days of the war, Russia bombed Gori, Stalin’s home town. The cluster bombs it dropped on the city killed between five and 30 people, but the statue of Stalin on the main Stalin Square remained standing. As Russian tanks rolled past the statue on Putin’s orders, one can even imagine the Soviet dictator winking and waving.

    1) The cluster bombs used in Georgia were identified as Israeli made so they were 100% used by Suck-ass-shvili's forces and not those of
    Russia.

    2) How about the 2000 civilians murdered by the pro-NATzO Georgian regime in the middle of the night by the sneak attack on Tskhinvali
    which was not a military target but part of the regime's attempt to grab South Ossetia.

    3) And supposedly NATzO is not engaged in imperialism. Welcome to 1984 newthink and newspeak. Not surprising for a Trotskyist bootlick.


    It is easy enough to condemn Russia’s manipulation of history for ideological ends, or Putin’s restoration of the Soviet anthem in 2000. But the truth is that a large majority of Russians—77 per cent according to one poll—welcomed the restoration of the anthem, and at least half the country view Stalin’s role in history as positive. This connects to another uncomfortable truth: the version of history portrayed in the new textbook is as much a defeat for Russian liberalism and liberal intellectuals—the journalists, historians and artists who were supposed to counter the Soviet ideology—as it is a triumph for Putin. There was more opposition from Russian liberals to the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, than there is now to the war in Georgia.

    1) You are a lying cunt who distorts modern day facts to serve the agenda of your screed. So what is exactly your legitimacy to pass
    judgement on Russians for their view of WWII.

    2) Clearly the Russian view of WWII sticks in the craw of Trotskyist maggots. Stalin really did help Russia survive. That is a cold, hard fact
    and no amount of your "cluster bombs in Gori" crap will change it.

    3) If Russian liberalism is all about sycophancy to NATzO and guilt tripping Russians who were, bar none, the greatest victims of WWII aside from
    the singular Holocaust, then they deserve to be sidelined and ignored. Their BS is designed to lubricate the imperialism of NATzO.

    4) The 1968 Czechoslovakia incident is small potatoes. Nothing like yanqui meddling in Panama, Grenada, and pretty much around the world.
    The US helped Sukharto butcher a million people in Indonesia. Those victims were civilians who wanted what the writer of this screed purports
    to believe in, leftist ideals.

    I skimmed the rest of this screed and some fixation on the Russian national anthem and Soviet jingles. Really? This is the "weighty"
    evidence against modern Russia?

    Here is another shitball from the same toilet:

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/how-can-nations-atone-for-their-sins-germany-russia-nazism-soviet-union

    Today the majority of Russians—including younger Russians who we might have expected to demand answers to the thorniest historical questions—assess Stalin in a positive light. As we witness toppled statues in Europe and the US, in Russia the state has sanctioned the erection of busts of Stalin in various cities including the country’s third largest, Novosibirsk.

    In 2019 the most respected pollster in Russia, the Levada Center, found that these efforts are working, with 70 per cent of Russians believing that Stalin’s rule had been good for the Soviet Union. In fact, the number who admired Stalin was greater than at any point since Levada started polling on the question in 2001. Lev Gudkov, the head of the Levada Centre, stated that “there’s been a quiet rehabilitation of Stalin on the part of the government.”

    What a crime! How despicable of this "ebil Roshians".

    This "article" is using the routine propaganda tricks of setting up a false inference. Since Germans of the 1950s did not accept their guilt,
    that is the same as Russians after 1990 not accepting their "guilt". WTF do Germans after 1945 have to do with Russians? Assume
    a false premise and proceed to "conclude" that Russians are in the wrong. The revisionist cunts who write this agit-prop pretend that
    Hitler was equal to Stalin and that the Nazis were equal to the Soviets? How?

    1) Did the USSR start WWII? Obviously not since the war started in 1939 and only in 1941 on the eastern front. That is not a gap one
    can fob off. But NATzO revisionists also invoke "partition of Poland" between the USSR and the Nazis as part of some sort of natural alliance.
    The much touted Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is used to support this revisionism. Unlike the USA, the USSR did not help the Nazis set up
    military production lines during the 1930s. The so called partition was the legal return of Soviet lands annexed by Poland in 1920 which
    had little to do with Poland since any Polish population on those lands was nowhere close to a majority. Those were Ukrainian and
    Belorussian lands. The much yapped about non-aggression pact was not unique to the USSR, Poland had signed the same earlier.
    And this pact resulted in the shipment of food grain to Germany in exchange for a period when the USSR increased its war potential
    by 40%. This was a brilliant move by Stalin. Naturally the revisionists pretend that Stalin was "surprised" by the German attack in
    1941. Really? After preparing to fight them, right?

    2) The authors want Russians to feel guilt for some sort of wrongdoing associated with WWII just like the Germans. Did the Soviets
    (Russians) set up death camps for Jews? I know about the Chechens, but that is a problem between Chechnya and Russia and not
    some sort of stick in NATzO's hand to beat Russia on the head with. The UK, USA, Belgium, etc., have committed vastly greater crimes
    against ethnic groups around the planet compared to the wartime treatment of Chechens. Chechens were not peacfully minding their
    own business but decided to ally themselves with the genocidal Nazis.

    3) The USSR had no platform of genocide in the name of racial purity. The Nazis did and planned to exterminate Russians and
    other Soviet untermenschen. So why should Russians feel guilt for WWII? Because they were the victims of attempted genocide.
    Actually, 18 million Soviet civilians died so there was a de facto genocide.

    Germany’s post-war economic achievements eventually allowed its citizens to face their collective guilt in a more confident, rather than a defensive spirit, with contemporary success encouraging hope that society could continue to recover and prosper into the future after drawing a line under past crimes.

    The rocky and, for a time, ruinous road of the Russian economy after the Soviet collapse stands in stark contrast. Yet there is something more fundamental in Russia’s failed replication of the German model in the post-Cold War world. The historian Carlo Ginzburg was on to something when he suggested that “the country one belongs to is not, as the usual rhetoric goes, the one you love but the one you are ashamed of.” We rarely experience our national belonging as powerfully as in those moments when we feel “ashamed for somebody different from us for something we are not involved in,” but for someone whom we nonetheless feel a sense of responsibility.

    Inane name-dropping drivel. Germany did not change economic systems and was subsidized by the Marshall Plan. By contrast
    1990-91 Russia transitioned to capitalism. That is like rebuilding a house at the brick level. It is a miracle that the country did not
    completely dissolve. Nobody was subsidizing Russia's transition. But instead, NATzO sent its Harvard Boyz of economic witchdoctors
    who prescribed shock-therapy voodoo. This resulted in the collapse of Russian industry (and jobs) and a flood of imports (lucrative
    for NATzO) that keep Russia's economy down until after 1998. Yeltsin's compardor regime, which is basically being extolled by the
    writers of this article, maintained an artificially high ruble forex rate (enabling the import flood) through the GKO ponzi. This racket
    collapsed in 1998. Thanks to this collapse the forex dropped almost four times and Russia's manufacturing capacity started to be
    used again. Yeltsin failed to physically destroy Russian factories and thus his whole scam fell apart. But Russians are to be credited
    for rescuing their economy. Like workers in Argentina in 2000, they secured their places of work and even kept working without pay
    particularly in the military sector.

    I won't bother to dissect the rest of this crap. It appeals to non-arguments and things that do not matter to push blood libel.



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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:01 pm

    Now it is trendy in the West to praise Trotsky, since he was the kind of "leftist" that they like: one that talks vapid doctrine while he surrenders the country. Exactly the reason why they hate Stalin, which was exactly the opposite and didn't give a damn about implementing the "real" communism but did his job as statesman to perfection. Exactly the reason why they hate Putin too.
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:55 pm

    Stalin was pragmatic, Trotsky was a naive idealist.

    He would have ruined the USSR with his pemanent revolution.

    PS Russia truly flourished between 1905 and 1913. That period saw the highest growth rate of any European economy - without ww1 Russian GDP per capita would catch up with Germany by 1940.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:02 pm

    Well, the english people. Always projecting their own misdeeds onto others. We could start with Churchill and his killing of millions of Indians or his order to use chemical weapons in the middle east. Invading other countries is there second most loved pastime (close after football and drinking).

    Russia build a lot of monuments for the victims of communism, Lenin, Stalin... I can´t see any monuments in GB for the millions of Africans, Arabs and Indians killed by the british army.

    Stalins greatest crime was that he didn´t use the WWII to get rid of the artificial borders that Lenin invented to carve up Russia. But he was half-georgian so you could excuse him.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:19 pm

    LMFS wrote:Now it is trendy in the West to praise Trotsky, since he was the kind of "leftist" that they like: one that talks vapid doctrine while he surrenders the country. Exactly the reason why they hate Stalin, which was exactly the opposite and didn't give a damn about implementing the "real" communism but did his job as statesman to perfection. Exactly the reason why they hate Putin too.

    Trotsky was not naive nor an idealist, nor did he in any way advocate surrendering the country. During Trotsky's leadership of the Red Army during the Civil War, he proved that he and other Bolshevik party members proved that they can be fully pragmatic and ruthless when necessary. While in the late 30s, despite his exile and all his criticism of Stalin's USSR, he still called for internationalists to support it in the upcoming war.

    But the whole point of socialism is to remove the necessity for all that in the long run, and that shouldn't ever be forgotten.

    Stalin acted to simply remove everyone that could remotely pose a threat. He was probably the right man at the right time, but with his approach, socialism can never be built, and indeed the Soviet empire collapsed a few decades later despite all military victories and economic progress of prior years; it only took a decade of economic uncertainty, political instability and a military defeat to detonate the entire country. Because the inevitable contradictions between the stated ideology and how the whole thing actually worked just kept pilling up.

    As for Trotsky, though he conducted a very thorough critical rendering of Stalin and the system he built, his approach of permanent revolution was a dead end too.
    The only system that is not a dead end is the original Marxist analysis and its development into Marxist-Leninism. Which was discarded some years after Lenin's death. Perhaps as a matter of necessity. When you see that a genocidal war is being prepared against you and that attempts at revolution in more advanced capitalist states have all failed; you have to disregard the socialist approach, along with much else.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:12 am



    Washington financed propaganda outlets are spreading the blood libel that Putin is connected to the Beirut blast.

    Because the crook owner of the ship carrying the NH4NO3 from Georgia to Mozambique owed big money and his
    ship was impounded in Beirut by Lebanese authorities. Apparently Putin is responsible for all Russian crooks and the
    chain of idiocy that led to this incident.

    1) Lebanese authorities impounded the cargo and then paid it no mind. They allowed fireworks to be stored basically
    on top of it.

    2) Workers showed up for some sort of repair activity at the warehouse without paying attention to the dangerous
    contents and started of a chain of combustion events that led to the massive explosion.

    Putin must be some sort of supernatural being able to arrange for such a chain of events. And he did this to undermine
    himself by enabling some pro-west colour revolution in Lebanon. The mind boggles.

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:34 am

    flamming_python wrote:...During Trotsky's leadership of the Red Army during the Civil War, he proved that he and other Bolshevik party members proved that they can be fully pragmatic and ruthless when necessary....

    As in very efficient at killing Russians in order to elevate minorities who were perceived as more valuable stock for the spread of the Red dogma?

    As always it's about destroying the more advanced in order to create illusion of progress for the primitive ones, classic commies



    Reds depopulated a whole continent and set it back a whole century but even that isn't enough for the commies like you even after all this time and all that slaughter?

    None of you will rest until you exterminate those who are seen as a threat because they would refuse stagnation, primitivism and compliance?



    This is why when dealing with commies you need to kill every last one of them especially children because that cancer will spread if you miss even a single cell, failure to do so carries a huge price that has been demonstrated many times in history

    Our local "comrade" here is prime evidence of that, he still wants extermination of it's own nation and culture and will not be swayed from that objective no matter what



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    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:51 am

    kvs wrote:

    A case of pro-western propaganda in Russia.   Some idiot yanqui "student" of 28 years got into a fight with a couple
    of women when the cops showed up he got violent with them.   So he was arrested and then attacked the driver
    of the cop car (don't they have plexiglass separators?) and nearly caused a crash.   For his patently criminal behaviour
    he got a 9 year prison term.  

    Now the liberasts are baying that he is a poor oppressed student who is persecuted by totalitarian Russia.    The
    fact that he was a US marine is conveniently ignored.   At his age it implies that he washed out of the US Marines
    so likely has issues.

    The grotesque thing about this is that such behaviour would have resulted in US cops shooting him dead.  And nobody
    would be bitching about his "persecution".   But in Russia even violent crime is OK as long as the approved people do
    it.   This what liberasts are, they are the Russian version of woke SJW drones.

    Also, they love handing out long prison terms in the USA.   So 9 years is perfectly OK.   It is some sort of European
    fetish to give short terms even for murder (e.g. 15 years).  



    Canada is even "better", eight years in prison given to a local Anglo murderer of a teenager of ethnic Polish origin.

    The murder took place back in 2000 in British Columbia, but it took years for the police to arrest him.

    I think they released that murderer from prison back in 2018.


    "Justice" in Canada.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:00 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:...During Trotsky's leadership of the Red Army during the Civil War, he proved that he and other Bolshevik party members proved that they can be fully pragmatic and ruthless when necessary....

    As in very efficient at killing Russians in order to elevate minorities who were perceived as more valuable stock for the spread of the Red dogma?

    As always it's about destroying the more advanced in order to create illusion of progress for the primitive ones, classic commies



    Reds depopulated a whole continent and set it back a whole century but even that isn't enough for the commies like you even after all this time and all that slaughter?

    None of you will rest until you exterminate those who are seen as a threat because they would refuse stagnation, primitivism and compliance?



    This is why when dealing with commies you need to kill every last one of them especially children because that cancer will spread if you miss even a single cell, failure to do so carries a huge price that has been demonstrated many times in history

    Our local "comrade" here is prime evidence of that, he still wants extermination of it's own nation and culture and will not be swayed from that objective no matter what




    I would not say it is his own nation and culture. He demonstrates the classic minority bunker mentality. Most of it delusion that
    crates subconscious and conscious resentment. I say to all such "oppressed" minorities, move to the promised lands of NATzO.
    You will be living in a paradise of your own choice.

    I have also seen a certain "tribal" support for Trotsky all over the place. As if his butchery during the civil war never happened.
    It was called the Red Terror for a reason. Putting it on a pedestal is rather thick and rich for the "terhorism" bleaters.



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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:56 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:...During Trotsky's leadership of the Red Army during the Civil War, he proved that he and other Bolshevik party members proved that they can be fully pragmatic and ruthless when necessary....

    As in very efficient at killing Russians in order to elevate minorities who were perceived as more valuable stock for the spread of the Red dogma?

    As always it's about destroying the more advanced in order to create illusion of progress for the primitive ones, classic commies



    Reds depopulated a whole continent and set it back a whole century but even that isn't enough for the commies like you even after all this time and all that slaughter?

    None of you will rest until you exterminate those who are seen as a threat because they would refuse stagnation, primitivism and compliance?



    This is why when dealing with commies you need to kill every last one of them especially children because that cancer will spread if you miss even a single cell, failure to do so carries a huge price that has been demonstrated many times in history

    Our local "comrade" here is prime evidence of that, he still wants extermination of it's own nation and culture and will not be swayed from that objective no matter what

    The Reds were for Russians.
    Because the same system that uses Russians to oppress minorities also oppresses Russians. It's classic empire, only the Tsars weren't smart enough to build a racial heirarchy and actually give Russian peasants a better lifestyle than all the Muslims, Jews, Poles, etc... in the empire. If anything they were actually treated worse, they were serfs the property of nobles.

    And the Reds very quickly started eradicating all sorts of cholera and other diseases, mass-literacy and education campaigns, expropriating land from properties to the peasants who actually worked the fields, removing all sorts of backwards feudal practices and punishments, gave workers some sort of housing, electification campaign that spread electricity to nearly all corners in just 10 years, granted a lot of social mobility and so on.

    If that hadn't taken place then maybe the birthrates would have kept into 10 per family and there would also be a lot more Russians today, but the country would also look more like India than anything developed.
    Or again, it would have just been conquered by Germany, Japan, whoever.

    As for communism it's an analysis. And it won't go away by killing everyone; if anything by doing that you'll just draw attention to it as people will start to wonder why the powers that be consider it such a threat.
    Napoleon and the 1st French Empire did not abrogate the French Revolution of the borgouise. French society would eventually return to it - the 2nd republic, the 3rd republic, etc...

    As for depopulating a whole continent; the Russian Empire had huge famines every few years, it kept all its peoples in the dark ages with minimum development relying on feudal loyalties. Then WW1 came; and somehow this whole situation of European empires who've run out of land on earth to take over, sending millions to their deaths over national prestige did not amount to depopulation of a whole continent.
    How do you propose the people fight back against such criminal madness - with impeccable conduct and obedience?

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:10 am

    flamming_python wrote:The Reds were for Russians...

    Reds were for themselves

    Had they been for Russians they would have been killing non-Russians instead since they enjoy killing so much

    Reds don't have nation, heritage, legacy, culture or civilization

    They only have their psychotic genocidal dogma and are willing to climb any mountain of corpses to spread that cancer (Russian corpses are preferred variety in that neck of the woods)

    Stop trying to whitewash your fellow red human excrement, nobody is falling for it in this day and age

    They have been flushed away to the history's septic tank where they belong



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:51 am

    Russians must breed like rabbits but do it all on the quiet because if half the numbers killed by the commies is true they must all be dead...

    Clearly western propaganda is very strong for such hate to be directed at a group that thinks government should work in a different way from the west... but we all know how tolerant the west is...
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:32 pm

    Reds where for Russians eh...?.

    I guess the USSR didn't get that memo....

    In fact they get the memo that was the opposite of that.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:11 am



    The usual self-absorbed, condescending wank fest.

    Elbrus is the only viable VLIW architecture on the planet. Russia is making this architecture work, Intel tried and failed with
    Itanium. Given the 1990s exodus of researchers from the ex-USSR to the west, it is rather clear that the Itanium project
    was an attempt to rip off the Russian knowhow. It failed.

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:The Reds were for Russians...

    Reds were for themselves

    Had they been for Russians they would have been killing non-Russians instead since they enjoy killing so much

    Reds don't have nation, heritage, legacy, culture or civilization

    They only have their psychotic genocidal dogma and are willing to climb any mountain of corpses to spread that cancer (Russian corpses are preferred variety in that neck of the woods)

    Stop trying to whitewash your fellow red human excrement, nobody is falling for it in this day and age

    They have been flushed away to the history's septic tank where they belong




    They killed plenty of non-Russian bandits, feudals, interventionists and imperialists as well as Russian ones
    Everyone backward had to go I'm sorry.

    Don't see what the problem here is to be frank. The Germans were trying to kill Russians, the Tsar didn't care if he killed Russians or sent them to their deaths, Kerensky who replaced the Tsar continued to send Russians to be killed
    And everyone tried to kill the communists as soon as they took power
    Yet you call on the Reds to sing kumbaya.
    By the same means as your are oppressed, do you bring the fight to your oppressor. Who taught you everything you know, who created you in their image - if not your oppressors and ruling classes in the first place?

    As for nation; it's the Russian nation, and the Russian civilization. National in content, socialist in character - that's what a worker's state is. No-one tried to erase Russia's history or heritage. Many churches were blown up, as the clergy was an instrument, but other than that all the galleries, palaces, etc... were regarded as cultural heritage.
    Reds did go a little overboard in the beginning but again, it's a reaction, and you fight with the same methods used against you. The Tsarist regime was one of stiffling paternal autocracy, of nationalism and love for the Tsar drilled into people since birth, of an aristocracy that does everything to appear like gods before the common population - and in order for this scheme to work keeps the common population in ignorance, illiteracy and economic squalor. The ruling classes had contempt for their own people, and their own people reacted with contempt against them, and everything they were associated with or wielded in their interests.

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Reds where for Russians eh...?.

    I guess the USSR didn't get that memo....

    In fact they get the memo that was the opposite of that.

    You must not have gotten the memo that we went from backwardness to launching the first man in space. By the 70s 1/3rd of all scientists on earth were born in the USSR. By some accounts by the 80s this figure rose closer to 1/2.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:42 pm

    flamming_python wrote:...Everyone backward had to go I'm sorry.

    Yes we know and no you are not

    In commie parlance non-commie = backward

    Although it's quite hilarious that primitive regressive animals like reds had the gal to call anyone backward

    It's like maggots calling vertebrates backward



    flamming_python wrote:...The Germans were trying to kill Russians, the Tsar didn't care if he killed Russians or sent them to their deaths, Kerensky who replaced the Tsar continued to send Russians to be killed

    And commie brilliant solution to this problem was to send Russians to kill and be killed by other Russians?

    It's a win-win situation there for someone (other than Russians that is)



    flamming_python wrote:...You must not have gotten the memo that we went from backwardness to launching the first man in space.

    Which was done in spite of communism not because of it

    Just imagine how much further ahead Russians would have been of they hadn't wasted a century (and half the population)?



    flamming_python wrote:By the 70s 1/3rd of all scientists on earth were born in the USSR.

    And every single one couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there Razz


    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:32 am

    In commie parlance non-commie = backward

    Although it's quite hilarious that primitive regressive animals like reds had the gal to call anyone backward

    It's like maggots calling vertebrates backward

    The hate you spew for commies because "they kill people" is amusing

    In non commie parlance commies = something that must be killed at all costs... better dead that red... but they are the bad guys... not you.

    And commie brilliant solution to this problem was to send Russians to kill and be killed by other Russians?

    The Tsar was sending Russians to kill communist Russians and Germans, the communist Russians were sending Russians to kill Tsarist Russians and could care less about killing Germans.... why were Russians trying to kill Germans in the first place? Because their bestest buddies Britain and France asked them to?

    Hardly a good reason to fight Germany...

    It's a win-win situation there for someone (other than Russians that is)

    Many western countries had civil wars where they fought their own... are you trying to suggest it is different when Russians do it?

    Which was done in spite of communism not because of it

    Actually without communism the Soviet Union really could not have justified the expense of going in to space. Of course even without communism the west would be isolating them and imposing sanctions and other hostile activity like they are now because the Cold War never really had anything to do with democracy or communism.

    Just imagine how much further ahead Russians would have been of they hadn't wasted a century (and half the population)?

    Pressure turns coal into diamonds... without communism, Russia today would be Albanian today...

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:56 am

    I don't think so personally.

    Russia was always poised to be a major power - regardless of the revolution or not.  It has all the makings of one - large population, large amount of land, a long history of technical prowess, and the resources.  If there was no USSR and or revolution, then there may have been a larger chance of more successful Russian advancement in that resources wouldn't have been wasted plus resources would be concentrated internally rather than propping up fabricated states like: Belarus, Ukraine, Baltics, etc.  These are same countries who currently hold Russian land and various people hostage right this moment.  Actually, because of the revolution, Russia lost territory that was vital (Odessa, Kiev, etc) and that became seperate states.

    Plus, the end result of make belief nations wouldn't exist this the land issues that we have today wouldn't be a current problem.

    I do believe though that Stalin's heavy hand was necessary for a drastic change. I just think that the process would have been slower but more stable if it was not done via a revolution and loss of territory mixed with resource allocation to other non Russian states

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Yes we know and no you are not

    In commie parlance non-commie = backward

    Although it's quite hilarious that primitive regressive animals like reds had the gal to call anyone backward

    It's like maggots calling vertebrates backward

    Pretty much anyone willing to fight for regressive claptrap other people thought up of for their own benefit - Tsar, religion, nationalism, borgouise democracy, etc...
    Yes it's all backward

    The one ones the Reds destroyed that there may have been an alternative for were the Greens and the Blacks.

    The Green Army was kinda associated with the Social Revolutionaries (peasant socialists), but really the main motivation for their formation was just everyone coming to their villages and confiscating their grain to feed their own armies or own city populations. They got pissed off and just wanted everyone to leave them alone. So should the Bolsheviks have ideally. Peasants self-rule and working own land is not in contradiction to socialism.

    The Black Army were at times allies of the Bolsheviks but in the end entered a conflict and got crushed. Politically the anarchists associated with the Bolsheviks and other socialist parties. Basically the whole anarchist idea amounts to regressing to the most basic social-economic order of society - that of primitive communism and tribal confederacy. Which makes them entirely useless as an economic unit, but they are at least agriculturally self-sufficient (not modern anarchists but those back in the day were) and highly motivated. So there was an opening for some sort of understanding here.



    And commie brilliant solution to this problem was to send Russians to kill and be killed by other Russians?

    No it was to redirect the oppressed and downtrodden to deal with their oppressors and overlords, rather that fighting the same low-caste pawns of other monarchies as they themselves are.

    It's a win-win situation there for someone (other than Russians that is)

    Would have been great if the Germans themselves turned on their rulers, and it came close to happening.
    They had a revolution in 1919, which the German Socialist Party betrayed later and agreed to become part of a borgouise power structure and parliament. But the character of the revolution was similar enough to the Russian one; just it's leadership was corrupt.

    Which was done in spite of communism not because of it

    Just imagine how much further ahead Russians would have been of they hadn't wasted a century (and half the population)?

    Again you go with your inspired fantasies and 'what if's

    Who are you, to say how history would have turned out?

    We can only go by what we know. What we know is that pre-rev Russia was a country boiling over with an increased amount of social contradictions, inequalities, ideas, and uprisings.
    The revolution did not start in 1917. The first one was in 1905. And before that you had 50 years of arson, revolutionary gangs, various parties, so on.

    So your ideas about "well if not communism" - you miss the whole picture. Everything was heading towards it.

    Secondly, the Tsarist army had what - Belgian rifles, French artillery, British ships. In some units 2 men had to share one rifle.
    By 1941 the Red Army had the largest amount of tanks in the world, with all but the oldest of completely its own designs. It had an airforce, consisting of its own designs, its own production capabilities - the I-16 was for a time the fastest fighter in the world. It's navy was still underdeveloped but that wasn't critical.

    So no I don't see how the Tsarist model could have either survived, or succeeded by the 40s. Nor the borgouise model of the Kerensky government; which was tried in Germany but then coup'd by Nazism.

    When it comes down to it, it's enough to look at the difference between China and India, to understand which sort of economic system is better at modernizing a massive backwards country and population.
    To be academic, China had always been somewhat more cohesive and advanced compared to India, but never to the extent of the difference between the countries you see now.

    And every single one couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there Razz

    Funilly enough they did that after the system started to be torn apart and then collapsed, hyperinflation, shortages, with everything being privatized, all sorts of unrest and wars starting.
    Of course they left. What are they going to do - hang around for oligarchic capitalism?
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:32 pm

    Those numbers are not accurate actually, but hey buy into that.

    Your boys were so effective they created so much hate to the point they allowed a fool like Yeltsin to come into power which set the Russians back by decades. Fact is USSR treated its people like dirt, and it's very well documented by people who lived in the USSR and those scientists.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:46 am

    If there was no USSR and or revolution, then there may have been a larger chance of more successful Russian advancement in that resources wouldn't have been wasted plus resources would be concentrated internally rather than propping up fabricated states like: Belarus, Ukraine, Baltics, etc.

    Actually with no USSR and no revolution then there would be no such thing as Belarus or Ukraine or Baltic states or Finland for that matter... all those territories were Russia.... it was the Far East that was the problem because after losing a lot of territory there would not be the same showing as seen during WWII so they probably would not have gotten all that land lost to Japan in 1905 back... which is probably of more use than land occupied by ungrateful back stabbers in the west of the country...

    Fact is USSR treated its people like dirt, and it's very well documented by people who lived in the USSR and those scientists.

    It created a safe stable culture where everyone could work and everyone had access to healthcare and education, where no one starved or was left to fend for themselves.

    The US treats its people like dirt... get into enormous debt if you get sick or try further education... the US government does not give a shit about the American people... they are cannon fodder for foreign wars to make the few ultra rich actually richer, but in no other way benefits the US.

    When western companies pull production out of China it wont go back to the US and create jobs and help the middle class.... it will all go to Bangledesh and India because wages are cheap...
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:20 am

    Lol Garry you have such a rosy view of the USSR and the facts and reality of what it was like ar every well documented.

    The fact you are trying to argue against it is honestly hilarious of how little you know.

    Good to its people lol.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:41 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lol Garry you have such a rosy view of the USSR and the facts and reality of what it was like ar every well documented.

    The fact you are trying to argue against it is honestly hilarious of how little you know.

    Good to its people lol.

    USSR is super popular among campus commies precisely because none of them ever experienced communism but they heard that pricks with useless social studies college degrees were taken seriously there so they think it's Utopia

    Also free stuff (all of which was shit and there was barely any of it)

    And they keep forgetting that there were no iPhones, Amazon or Starbucks there either lol1



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