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    Project 885: Yasen class #2

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:17 pm

    lancelot wrote:Shkval supercavitating torpedo, Oniks supersonic missile, etc.
    No US equivalents.

    K-8 disaster, K-27 disaster, K-429 disaster, K-219 disaster, Kursk disaster

    No US equivalents



    Singular_Transform wrote:...Don't try new weapons, and you are safe : )...

    It didn't help Russians, not a single sub disaster they had was due to new weapons



    GarryB wrote:Are we not going to count deaths outside the subs?

    Japanese fishermen and damaged cargo ships?

    No we won't, Garry

    We are counting dead nuclear subs (big advanced expensive complex nuclear powered combat vessels operated by the best of the best) no some irrelevant fishermen or cargo ships that even shithioles like Somalia have


    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    lancelot wrote:Shkval supercavitating torpedo, Oniks supersonic missile, etc.
    No US equivalents.

    K-8 disaster, K-27 disaster,  K-429 disaster, K-219 disaster, Kursk disaster

    No US equivalents



    Singular_Transform wrote:...Don't try new weapons, and you are safe : )...

    It didn't help Russians, not a single sub disaster they had was due to new weapons



    Ahem .
    K-27 - prototype molten metal reactor issue
    K-429 - Training issue , most likelly due to the too fast submariine building speed Remark : this submarine used advanced antiship missiles, that doesn't exist in USA invenroty, and was developed one and half decade before the Tomwhawk
    K-219  - advanced liquid fuel missile, with double throw weight compared to the same vintage USA SLBMs, with same missile dimensions. Issue with fuel
    Kursk - accident involving kerosene-H2O2 torpedo, USA using seafe(r) but inferior Otto II fuel torpedoes , with quoter of performance compared to the weapon caused the Kursk disaster.
    Losharik disaster - no similar system in USA inventory


    Every case the weapon system and submarine used more complicated ,powerfull and advanced, or  prototype systems.

    So ,again, if you use the same , 50 years old technology with slight improvements then no chance for failure  : D

    Same takeway, drive family car within the speed limits, not race car, and you have no chance for accident.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:19 am


    So f*ckups all round due to cutting corners, rushing production, shitty maintenance, no quality control and crappy training

    Like I said, Russia should just STFU on submarines for several decades and if they don't lose another boat with the whole crew included in that time then they can talk

    Like with Roskosmos: less talking, more doing

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:01 am

    Accidents are still accidents, doesn't matter what they involve.

    You're just making up excuses, that is all.

    It was incompetence that allowed the mistakes in the first place. Make up all the excuses you want, doesn't change a daaaam thing.

    End of the day your argument is also moronic, these weren't test systems they were mass productions. So the "it was new stuff" excuse means shit.

    In terms of the reactor, a reactor is still a reactor and they had more than enough experience with it.
    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:50 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Accidents are still accidents, doesn't matter what they involve.

    You're just making up excuses, that is all.

    It was incompetence that allowed the mistakes in the first place. Make up all the excuses you want, doesn't change a daaaam thing.

    End of the day your argument is also moronic, these weren't test systems they were mass productions. So the "it was new stuff" excuse means shit.

    In terms of the reactor, a reactor is still a reactor and they had more than enough experience with it.

    Majority of Americans are Moronic and you're one of them with your lame excuses lol Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:47 am

    PhSt wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Accidents are still accidents, doesn't matter what they involve.

    You're just making up excuses, that is all.

    It was incompetence that allowed the mistakes in the first place. Make up all the excuses you want, doesn't change a daaaam thing.

    End of the day your argument is also moronic, these weren't test systems they were mass productions. So the "it was new stuff" excuse means shit.

    In terms of the reactor, a reactor is still a reactor and they had more than enough experience with it.

    Majority of Americans are Moronic and you're one of them with your lame excuses lol Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Righhhhhhht I'm the one making up excuses.

    Go back to the circus you clown.
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    Post  Backman Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:19 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    lancelot wrote:Shkval supercavitating torpedo, Oniks supersonic missile, etc.
    No US equivalents.

    K-8 disaster, K-27 disaster,  K-429 disaster, K-219 disaster, Kursk disaster

    No US equivalents



    Singular_Transform wrote:...Don't try new weapons, and you are safe : )...

    It didn't help Russians, not a single sub disaster they had was due to new weapons





    Kursk - accident involving kerosene-H2O2 torpedo, USA using seafe(r) but inferior Otto II fuel torpedoes , with quoter of performance compared to the weapon caused the Kursk disaster.
    .

    Yup. The Shkval torpedo. The Americanskis were still trying to get info on it in 2000.

    In 2000, former U.S. Naval intelligence officer and an alleged Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) spy Edmond Pope (Captain, USN, retired) was held, tried, and convicted in Russia of espionage related to information he obtained about the Shkval weapon system.

    And a former US naval officer wrote a book about how the Kursk accident happened because a US sub came too close to get some data on the Shkval.

    Project 885: Yasen class #2 - Page 8 51ghP85kktL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:04 am

    Only a fucking retard seppo could have come up with that books narrative...

    "..and how Putin used the tragedy to ignite a New Cold War"

    That's simply ignorance (or dishonesty) of biblical proportions. angry Is there no depth to which these accursed liars will not stoop?

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    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:23 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Accidents are still accidents, doesn't matter what they involve.

    You're just making up excuses, that is all.

    It was incompetence that allowed the mistakes in the first place. Make up all the excuses you want, doesn't change a daaaam thing.

    End of the day your argument is also moronic, these weren't test systems they were mass productions. So the "it was new stuff" excuse means shit.

    In terms of the reactor, a reactor is still a reactor and they had more than enough experience with it.


    : D

    If you ask the reason why the USA weapon systems are inferrior compared to the foreign ones, then here is the reson : if you design your military and equipment around PR ,business and political interest then it will be inferrior by definition.


    If you measure the capability of submarines by number of accidents, then the best way to have superior one to use simple, outdated and incapable designs, conmepnsated with propaganda and secrecy.


    Everything is classified, so no chance to anyone objectively asses the capabilities : D

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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:27 pm

    A lot of the russian sub designs are like Formula One cars. New tech everywhere (and I´m not talking about HD screens). After their own sub disasters the americans came to the conclusion that they couldn´t keep up with russian sub tech, instead they build subs that are like the old VW beetle. Not very fast. Not very strong. But reliable if you just want to go from A to B. The rest is PR, like the shiny "Virginia" class which in reality should be called Los Angeles III, a 50 year old design with a few new HD screens.

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    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:42 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PhSt wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Accidents are still accidents, doesn't matter what they involve.

    You're just making up excuses, that is all.

    It was incompetence that allowed the mistakes in the first place. Make up all the excuses you want, doesn't change a daaaam thing.

    End of the day your argument is also moronic, these weren't test systems they were mass productions. So the "it was new stuff" excuse means shit.

    In terms of the reactor, a reactor is still a reactor and they had more than enough experience with it.

    Majority of Americans are Moronic and you're one of them with your lame excuses lol Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Righhhhhhht I'm the one making up excuses.

    Go back to the circus you clown.

    Of course you wouldn't admit it lol, typical American LIAR.

    Go back to the sewer you rat Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:43 pm

    So f*ckups all round due to cutting corners, rushing production, shitty maintenance, no quality control and crappy training

    The Soviets were fighting the richest and most powerful and most colonial white countries on the planet from the day their country began and to this day... they had no choice but to push the envelope and just work harder.

    Like I said, Russia should just STFU on submarines for several decades and if they don't lose another boat with the whole crew included in that time then they can talk

    Russia should what now?

    I rather suspect any of those lost crews would not change a thing if the alternative was to be assimilated by the Borg like Serbia clearly already has.

    How many space shuttles killed Americans? Should America shut the **** up about spacecraft design till they sort their shit out?

    Boeing aircraft with MAX in the title seems to have a good record of killing people on board should America STFU about aircraft design too?

    Maybe when the US stops murdering people around the world with their murder bots we might consider listening to anything they have to say.

    Like with Roskosmos: less talking, more doing

    Says who?

    Americas bitch in Serbia?

    Accidents are still accidents, doesn't matter what they involve.

    Accidents happen... learn your lessons and move on.

    You're just making up excuses, that is all.

    I don't need to make excuses for anyone.

    It was incompetence that allowed the mistakes in the first place.

    Really? You mean like substandard steel being used in construction of deep diving submarines type incompetence?

    Make up all the excuses you want, doesn't change a daaaam thing.

    You are right, it doesn't.

    End of the day your argument is also moronic, these weren't test systems they were mass productions. So the "it was new stuff" excuse means shit.

    It was a country fighting the colonial white europe of the last few centuries for survival... they lost a lot of men... but the way things look currently, they have a military that can defend them and is respected but most people with a brain, and they don't have to take shit from anyone... unlike the west who have to do as they are told or else.

    Sounds like I know who got the best deal.

    In terms of the reactor, a reactor is still a reactor and they had more than enough experience with it.

    The so called HEN reactors were awful and they are lucky they didn't have more problems with them... HEN being their first generation nuclear reactors used on their Hotel, Echo, and November class SSGNs and SSNs.

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:...The Soviets were fighting the richest and most powerful and most colonial white countries on the planet ....

    Say what now?

    Soviets were not some Vietcong-style underdogs, they were self proclaimed superpower and a next step in the development of human civilisation according to them (and only them)

    This ''muh evil colonizers'' shtick don't apply to them



    GarryB wrote:Russia should what now?....

    Russia should STFU



    GarryB wrote:...I rather suspect any of those lost crews would not change a thing if the alternative was to be assimilated by the Borg...

    Did you just try to use word Borg as an insult?

    The most advanced civilisation in entire Start Trek mythos? One that everyone shits their pants when even thinking of encountering?

    Good one   Cool



    GarryB wrote:... like Serbia clearly already has....

    Some comparison photos of Serbia and Russia from same time period, only one was being ''assimilated'':

    Project 885: Yasen class #2 - Page 8 D1coz9ox9tn01

    Project 885: Yasen class #2 - Page 8 Boris_yeltsin_with_bill_clinton-1

    Need I say more?



    GarryB wrote:...Boeing aircraft with MAX in the title seems to have a good record of killing people on board should America STFU about aircraft design too?....

    Yes they should

    That's how fucking up and shutting up works

    Russian Navy learned that they should keep their mouth shut lest a big throbbing Oscar-sized cock be jammed down their throats

    They didn't like the taste and are now shutting up and working (something Roskosmos is yet to learn how to do)



    GarryB wrote:...Maybe when the US stops murdering people around the world with their murder bots we might consider listening to anything they have to say.....

    Why?

    When your murderbots sucessfully murder people it means that your murderbots work (unlike certain Soviets/Russian subs)



    GarryB wrote:...Says who?

    Americas bitch in Serbia?....

    Easy for you to criticize now that you moved away from New Zealand and went to... oh wait, you didn’t move anywhere, you are still in good old Queen's dominion    lol1

    Ironic, it's like Benji Netanyahu calling someone a kike....   Razz
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    Post  Backman Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:16 pm

    There is 4 or 5 points in this video where the host implies that the Soviet sub has things that his boat didn't. He's basically in aw of this sub through the video. Russian subs are no joke

    https://youtu.be/BqC10tEGHWQ

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:03 am

    Say what now?

    Soviets were not some Vietcong-style underdogs, they were self proclaimed superpower and a next step in the development of human civilisation according to them (and only them)

    The Soviets set themselves apart from the colonial west and the fact that they survived despite taking on the entire rich and powerful colonial west shows they were a group to be respected.

    So many other countries folded and fell into line and followed orders and demands, but not the Soviets even to this day the Russians.


    This ''muh evil colonizers'' shtick don't apply to them

    The Soviets tended to get allies in the form of the broken countries the west rejected, or the strong little countries that would not bow to US bullshit... countries like Cuba and Vietnam and North Korea and Iran... they also suffered for their independence, but only because the west is a vengeful bully that holds grudges and is a nasty piece of work.

    Russia should STFU

    Says nobody serb on the interweb. And that is not an insult either because they wouldn't take advice from any member here... except probably Mindstorm.

    Did you just try to use word Borg as an insult?

    The west has created the Borg and made democracy an insult.

    The most advanced civilisation in entire Start Trek mythos?

    I think the analogy is spot on... they didn't develop any technology themselves... they just pinched ideas and technology from the cultures and alien species they ended up destroying...

    No morals and no ethics... the only problem with it is that the west is way too preachy and judgemental to be Borg... they are more like Vulcan Borg perhaps?

    But we all know the Vulcans are Jewish... just as the Klingons are supposed to be the Soviets and now Russians... but starfleet is more accepting than the western general public... a Russian would have to badmouth Russia before being accepted on a US ship.

    One that everyone shits their pants when even thinking of encountering?

    Very much so... who knows what the **** the Americans are going to do... whether you are on a civilian airliner just leaving Iranian airspace, or on a Japanese fishing vessel off the coast of Hawaii, or maybe on a gondola in Italy... look out... here come the Americans...

    Need I say more?

    Not the 1990s any more... today it is more like:

    Project 885: Yasen class #2 - Page 8 14385111

    But where is Serbia... but I don't blame you... Armenia is suffering the same problems too...

    Yes they should

    That's how fucking up and shutting up works

    And they don't either.

    When your murderbots sucessfully murder people it means that your murderbots work (unlike certain Soviets/Russian subs)

    The murder bots are supposed to kill enemies of America and in practise they just tend to kill random people and lots of other people nearby actually creating more enemies of the US than they actually kill so they don't work at all.

    I am sure when Russia and China put their first potential murder bots into service America will suddenly realise such things need to be regulated and controlled and that international law should be created limiting their uses to only places where America wants to use them no doubt.

    Easy for you to criticize now that you moved away from New Zealand and went to... oh wait, you didn’t move anywhere, you are still in good old Queen's dominion

    The thing about Liz is that she is actually a very well behaved monarch... But I find it amusing you think me not running away is somehow something bad...

    Runaway or don't... it is a choice.

    Ironic, it's like Benji Netanyahu calling someone a kike

    What is a kike?

    There is 4 or 5 points in this video where the host implies that the Soviet sub has things that his boat didn't. He's basically in aw of this sub through the video. Russian subs are no joke

    You will find it is internet warriors like Vann and PD who dwell on failure and defeat... it is called throwing the baby out with the bath water...

    An optimist would say the glass is half full, a pessimist will say it is half empty... and an engineer will tell you you have more glass than you need so use a smaller one and fill it up.

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    Post  ALAMO_1 Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:49 am

    Hole wrote:A lot of the russian sub designs are like Formula One cars. New tech everywhere (and I´m not talking about HD screens). After their own sub disasters the americans came to the conclusion that they couldn´t keep up with russian sub tech, instead they build subs that are like the old VW beetle. Not very fast. Not very strong. But reliable if you just want to go from A to B. The rest is PR, like the shiny "Virginia" class which in reality should be called Los Angeles III, a 50 year old design with a few new HD screens.

    There is one point that is obviously missing in this whole discussion.
    At its peak, Soviet Navy operated almost 500 subs of different types, classes, and generations.
    Same time, not build in total ...
    That would be ... about quadruple the number of USN-operated ones? Or "only" double?
    This ends up a discussion, to be honest.
    Statistics suck.
    Luck is relevant.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Say what now?

    Soviets were not some Vietcong-style underdogs, they were self proclaimed superpower and a next step in the development of human civilisation according to them (and only them)

    The Soviets set themselves apart from the colonial west and the fact that they survived despite taking on the entire rich and powerful colonial west shows they were a group to be respected.

    So many other countries folded and fell into line and followed orders and demands, but not the Soviets even to this day the Russians.....

    Soviets set themselves apart by not only folding and falling into line and following orders and demands but also by immediately committing ritual suicide the moment Uncle Sam said the word Cool

    In case you haven't noticed Soviets no longer exist, the disappeared in the most humiliating way in recorded human history

    Like a bitch


    Rest in shit USSR, had you been anything other than pile of turds you would have still existed  pwnd

    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:12 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Say what now?

    Soviets were not some Vietcong-style underdogs, they were self proclaimed superpower and a next step in the development of human civilisation according to them (and only them)

    The Soviets set themselves apart from the colonial west and the fact that they survived despite taking on the entire rich and powerful colonial west shows they were a group to be respected.

    So many other countries folded and fell into line and followed orders and demands, but not the Soviets even to this day the Russians.....

    Soviets set themselves apart by not only folding and falling into line and following orders and demands but also by immediately committing ritual suicide the moment Uncle Sam said the word    Cool

    In case you haven't noticed Soviets no longer exist, the disappeared in the most humiliating way in recorded human history

    Like a bitch


    Rest in shit USSR, had you been anything other than pile of turds you would have still existed  pwnd


    Whom was that "soviets" that you talk about ?

    did they speak Soviet ?
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:18 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:Whom was that "soviets" that you talk about ? ...

    Same ones y’all are singing praises to



    Singular_Transform wrote:...did they speak Soviet ? ...

    I wish

    It would have been less humiliating for modern day Russia

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    Post  Backman Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:38 am

    The world made more sense with an east and west economic bloc and global trade on the margins. The demise of the USSR brought on the Chimerican hyper globalist dystopian hellscape that we have now.

    Plus Russia sees it's past as one lineage. So I'm not on board with taking big sanctimoneos shits on the USSR but that's just me.

    It would have been better if the imperial structure of the USSR stayed the same. And communism was just erased and replaced.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:22 am

    Most communists in the west are super bitter against Russia too for failing to succeed, but the reality is that no country could succeed on its own against all the west... ironically look at China... a communist country that the west invested in and treated with respect for a while and they got on like a house on fire.... the west developed and improved a little because it was getting cheap consumer items that it thought it needed to keep its little robots working hard to earn enough to buy... the Chinese grew in leaps and bounds because there was more room to develop and grow... even in the mid 1990s in Chinese cities the streets were wall to wall with people on bicycles... but by the late 1990s they all had cars in the cities. Another five years and there were cars in the country side as well.

    Strangely enough their pollution problems were massively accelerated over that period too.

    You can bitch about the communist system, but the alternative is the consumerist American system that has largely destroyed the planet, with the oceans filled with coca cola bottles and plastic bags that are not going away.

    But lets get back to the Russian Navy needing to STFU.

    During the Cold War the Russians were essentially the core of the Soviet block, much the same way that the US is the driving force of HATO and the west, with very few other independent thinkers in the group.

    That is a lot of pressure, and considering the history of Russia... essentially going from a peasant destructive monarchy... then having a brutal civil war with outside actors like Poland stealing territory, which happened just after withdrawing from WWI, and then immediately followed by the pain of mass industrialisation under Stalin... a man you clearly love PD because every time a mistake is made in shipbuilding or space you demand heads roll and people get replaced... not matter what the facts, no matter what the situation, and without any investigations.

    Then came WWII and losing a significant portion of their male population in that conflict.... and then the cold war starts pitting Russia essentially against the white european colonial powers who got rich by pillaging the world of gold and resources for the previous few centuries, and a US that made a fortune out of WWII and became an industrial production powerhouse... they didn't even take back most of the lend lease stuff that the Soviets returned.... the Soviets gave them planes and tanks and the Americans put them on ships... sailed out to international waters and dumped it all overboard into the sea... because of course it was the obsolete crap they gave to allies to use, not the best stuff they made for themselves.

    And then the Cold War starts... shift in focus from fighting Germany to Europe and the US... different tools are needed... nuclear bombs needed, strategic missiles and bombers needed... large portion of your work force damaged and broken by war, or just dead.

    So of course most of the time they played catchup, and to an extent still do, their first nuclear reactors for their nuclear submarines still needed work... but back then there was no time so they put them to sea anyway... it did end up costing lives... and you can certainly criticise them for that, but what I don't understand is that right now they are developing brand new stuff to face the evil empire.... all the fat and hangers on from the Soviet Empire are gone, but they were more a hindrance most of the time, while most have actually joined the evil empire of the west and snipe insults from under the hem of Americas dress when they can...

    So right now it would be good to pump out dozens of ships... without testing and without new upgrades it would be the equivalent to putting the Sovremmeny back into production as is... it would be pretty ordinary and not a huge amount of use but they would be making a few of them... they would need to travel in groups because on their own they would be next to useless, but PD demands they make more and make them now and why is it taking so long.

    It seems rushed development kills people and leads to problem boats, but Russia has killed so many sailors it has no right to speak and no right to learn any lessons and must continue to pump out new ships as fast as China or the US.

    Lets ignore the Russians can't afford to make stupid mistakes like the LCS, or the Zumwalt, and especially the Ford class... that would empty their budget and they would be left with dogs no one would buy except at scrap rates or to steal the technology on them that does work.

    The Russians test, they test in all weathers and climates and in different regions too... and being fully multirole vessels... even the Corvettes... then they need cross testing as well... and it takes time. Waiting for guns to be fixed is OK when the new gun is lighter and faster firing than the much smaller calibre gun it would be replacing... their 130mm guns are lighter than the old 100mm guns and their new 100mm guns are lighter than their old 76.2mm guns... that is bloody Amazing, but you give them no credit.

    Their UKSK launchers make even Corvettes fully multirole... even their Kirov class cruisers when launched in the 1980s and 1990s only had anti sub and anti ship missiles... it had no land attack weapons. The Anti ship weapon is the Granit, a supersonic huge missile that weighs 7 tons, and the SS-N-14 is a subsonic low flying weapon that can either drop a torpedo to attack submarines or it can also engage ships with IR guidance.

    One of their new Corvettes can carry either Onyx... a much lighter anti ship missile that can engage land targets too a supersonic speed, but also the Ovtet which is a mach 2.5 ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo for anti sub use. It can also carry a variety of subsonic anti ship missiles, subsonic 2,500km range land attack missiles, and also subsonic missiles with a supersonic rocket powered terminal stage intended to attack well protected ship targets or land targets... in any combination.... and with electronics very much the equivalent of the US AEGIS system which is carried by every new and upgraded Russian ship and sub to share information and communicate... so a MiG-29KR operating from the Kuznetsov could detect a target ship on its radar and transmit its information to a Corvette which could launch an Onyx missile to attack that ship. In a couple of years time it can carry Zircon mach 9 missiles with 1,200km+ range.

    But you complain they don't have enough of them... ignoring the fact that these are complex new ships and they need to try to test as much as they can before committing to serial production.

    Being a teacher I would think learning a lesson would be something you understand... but you could just as easily slip down the slope of everything is Putins fault... perhaps Vann is getting a new buddy this year?

    So make up your mind... do they need to preserve life and make good proven safe equipment and vessels, or continue to follow the bleeding edge of technology and expect to lose a few platforms every other year... you tell them... I am sure they will respect your experience and knowledge ( that is sarcasm BTW... it wouldn't be if I said that to Mindstorm though...)

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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:20 pm

    The Novosibirsk preparing for tests at end of this month. Very Happy

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:04 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:The Novosibirsk preparing for tests at end of this month.  ....

    Good

    Now more

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    Post  Hole Yesterday at 11:40 am

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    Inside Kazan

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    Post  Hole Yesterday at 11:41 am

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