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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:08 pm

    william.boutros wrote:...They really need to press on with the M version of these ships and to unify their ships!

    They need to keep making this standard version and a lot of them, they worked out the problems and production speed is finally picking up

    M version will be much larger and it will practically be a new class which will take longer to build

    M will be nice but standard one should be priority

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    Post  Hole Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:37 pm

    The M should be build by another yard so this yard can concentrate on this version. Maybe a yard on Crimea could do it.
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    Post  Viktor Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:05 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:The Severnaya Shipyard in St. Petersburg in northwestern Russia (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) will lay down an additional series of Project 22350 frigates for the Russian Navy, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko announced on Thursday.

    The defense official declined to specify the number of ships planned for keel-laying under Project 22350

    https://tass.com/defense/1129411

    He is probably referring to 2 ships that were rumored since new year but who knows, they may be more

    This would be second year in a row that 2 Gorshkovs will start construction simultaneously, might be sign of positive developments becoming the norm



    Project was in waiting until all Russian engines where developed. Once done the production can continue now without Ukraine participation.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:54 pm

    Hole wrote:The M should be build by another yard so this yard can concentrate on this version. Maybe a yard on Crimea could do it.
    I would do the opposite, Zaliv in Crimea had a good experience in building frigates of the Krivak serie, and they do not need to  occupy the large drydock (needed for larger ships like helicopter carriers) for building frigates.
    In addition Severnaya Verf,  having had experience in building the base version, is probably the more indicated for building the enlarged version (that is basically a destroyer).

    In soviet time destroyers of the Udaloy class (having almost exactly the same size and displacement as 22350M) were built at the same time in severnaya verf and in Yantar (Kaliningrad).

    Yantar is also another yard with very recent experience in building  taiwar and grigorovich frigates (improved Krivak)
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:23 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Hole wrote:The M should be build by another yard so this yard can concentrate on this version. Maybe a yard on Crimea could do it.
    I would do the opposite, Zaliv in Crimea had a good experience in building frigates of the Krivak serie......

    Zaliv is too rusty to be given priority platform at this moment plus they will have their hands full with new LHDs soon

    Construction of Gorshkov frigates is too important to compromise it even for M version

    They need numbers



    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:27 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Hole wrote:The M should be build by another yard so this yard can concentrate on this version. Maybe a yard on Crimea could do it.
    I would do the opposite, Zaliv in Crimea had a good experience in building frigates of the Krivak serie......

    Zaliv is too rusty to be given priority platform at this moment plus they will have their hands full with new LHDs soon

    Construction of Gorshkov frigates is too important to compromise it even for M version

    They need numbers
    Yeah, but the only other shipyards with facilities and capabilites and recent experience for building frigates are Yantar in Kaliningrad (second series of Taiwar frigates for India and Grigorovich class frigates, both of them based on Krivak class) and the Baltic shipyard in Saint Petersburg (that built in the early 2000s the first series of Taiwar frigates for India). The Baltic shipyard is quite busy with large icebreakers, however.

    In addition there is the Admiralty shipyard (also in Saint Petersburg)  that has the infrastructure and capabilities for building frigates or destroyers and showed that they able to build diesel electric subs at a good pace. Maybe some of the Improved Kilo or Lada could be built instead at krasnoe sormovo in Nizhny Novgorod (that already said that would like to go back into the submarine business), to free people at the admiralty  shipyard to work in building frigates (22350) and or destroyers  (22350M).

    Edit: if they had the engines for those, Zaliv could get some more experience building a series of 11356 (Grigorovich/ Taiwar class) for export (that was probably also one of the reasons of giving the contract of the second serie of taiwar to Yantar shipyard instead of giving it again to the Baltic shipyard) (but it is impossible that the Ukraine would give the engines for ships built in Crimea)
    ultimatewarrior
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    Post  ultimatewarrior Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:33 pm

    Hopefully the second ship will be commissioned this year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Gorshkov-class_frigate
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:23 pm

    Moscow. April 8th. INTERFAX - Severnaya Verf Shipyard plans to transfer the first serial frigate Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov to the military in late May and early June, the enterprise’s press service said on Wednesday.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=529814&lang=RU
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    Post  mnztr Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:56 pm

    This one still has the ukranian engines right? These are really smart looking ships, the larger version will look even better I expect
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    Post  Viktor Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:31 pm

    I suspect we could see project 22350 and M version being introduced in less time now that the engine issue has being resolved.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:16 pm

    Viktor wrote:I suspect we could see project 22350 and M version being introduced in less time now that the engine issue has being resolved.

    Just finishing ones under construction now and ordering some more would be more than enough...
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    Post  ultimatewarrior Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:00 am

    22350M is going to be biggest surface combatants Russia will ever build in the foreseeable future (up until 2050s). 7,500 ton displacement makes it similar in size to Type 052D destroyer.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:57 am

    Except the 25 K ton helicopter carriers they are laying down, and of course the CVNs they plan as follow ons to the Kuznetsov.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:13 am

    ..and I have no doubt they will build a Lider cruiser, its just a matter of timing, plus the RuN deciding on what they actually want.
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    Post  dino00 Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:30 pm

    The first frigate of project 22350 with Russian engines will be launched in early May

    Frigate moved at the end of March from boathouse to floating dock[
    /size]

    ST. PETERSBURG, April 16. / TASS /. The first frigate of project 22350 with an all-Russian power plant Admiral Golovko will be launched in early May. This was announced on Thursday by the press service of the Severnaya Verf shipyard (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation).

    "The frigate Admiral Golovko will be launched in late April - early May,"


    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/8259895
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    Post  Hole Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:53 pm

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    Post  mnztr Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:52 pm

    It will be interesting to watch the trial of this ship. I suspect they have not fully ramped up production of the engines or ships yet until this is fully sorted. I really see no reason why Russia cannot build these much, much faster.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:00 pm

    These engines will have been tested, but actually putting them in to a real ship with a real transmission and putting them to normal use will be a test in itself.

    This is not their first engine... they know what they are doing, but even then there are always lessons to learn and they could create improvements to design and manufacturing processes...

    You can create scale models and computer models all you want but nothing tests a design like a full sized example and it is often only then when you realise it will work or it wont... and by then you have spent a lot of money... if it isn't working the last thing you want is to already have it in mass production with four new hulls hitting the water when serious changes need to be made to the design.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:09 am

    Well yes you can test all you want until the ship is in operation all kinds of bugs come out. Type 45 is an example of this. The US littoral ship and Zumwalt were such a mess they plan on building Burkes until who knows when.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:06 am

    mnztr wrote:Well yes you can test all you want until the ship is in operation all kinds of bugs come out. Type 45 is an example of this. The US littoral ship and Zumwalt were such a mess they plan on building Burkes until who knows when.
    I am not that sure that all the proper tests were made for those ships. E.g. the type 45 was the one that had problem with operation in very warm temperatures. In that case it is not clear to me (I have not read the reports on the issue) if it was

    1) a problem of system integration between propulsion systems and ship systems,

    2) if they designed and built the ship and the engines incorrectly (e.g. the specifications of ship and engine were wrote correctly, but they failed in verifying that the design corresponded to those specs and requirements)

    In this case the mistake would be in the verification phase.


    or maybe
    3) the specifications were wrong (that means that the ship and the engines were built according to the written requirements, but that the requirements were wrong and (as an example) did not include all the operating conditions of the ship. In this last case it would be a validation error (the requirements were not validated correctly).

    Note
    Validation = are we building the right thing?
    Verification = are we building the thing right?

    Some of the tests are made with components or systems, for others you need the whole ship, but of course you cannot just commission the ship and deliver it to the main customer for full operations until all tests are performed. Some things may need to be fixed later, but cutting short the tests and saying that you will sort out the bugs later is idiotic and criminal.

    We can imagine that in case of Gorshkov class, later ships in the series will need less testing (unless they change again the design). However it is possible that the third ship will have also a significant test program because it is the first one with fully Russian propulsion.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:43 pm

    As you know the first one had a very protracted testing period. Same with the Ford class carrier. Zumwalts are essential clean sheets and every type 45 will have to go in for major rework. They miscalculated power loads and when they are exceeded the ship just shuts down... !! (probably fixed with SW to limit full power to the elec drive.). The missile system of a British destroyer actually crashed while they were under attack and by the time it rebooted it was too late. A new propulsion system will need to be tested and my feeling is this one was somewhat rushed for obvious reasons, but you can bet many Ukranian engineers are now working at Russian companies on these projects. The thing is, these are very complex machines and there is no software that can predict every element of the design today. Plus many systems are developed separately and THEN integrated. When that process happens all sorts of design goals start to meet reality. Power and heat budgets, software code that was poorly developed, simple mistakes etc etc.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:24 am

    In aircraft and land vehicle engines they were working towards families of engines that can be scaled up or down to suit different roles and different weight classes of vehicles/platforms...

    They have not really had time to create new engines from scratch, which is a shame because ideally that would be the best solution going forward, but it would take too much time.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri May 01, 2020 2:12 pm


    Source: work on the "Super-Gorshkov" continues

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA6/

    The Northern Design Bureau did not stop work on the development of frigates of project 22350M. Information about the cancellation of plans to create a ship, circulated by a number of media outlets, is untrue. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a senior naval source...
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    Post  ultimatewarrior Fri May 01, 2020 4:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Source: work on the "Super-Gorshkov" continues

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA6/

    The Northern Design Bureau did not stop work on the development of frigates of project 22350M. Information about the cancellation of plans to create a ship, circulated by a number of media outlets, is untrue. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a senior naval source...

    It's gonna take at least 10 years considering how slow Russians are these days. My opinion Super Gorshkov is something like Type 052D in terms of size. About 7500 tons.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri May 01, 2020 5:54 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Source: work on the "Super-Gorshkov" continues

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA6/

    The Northern Design Bureau did not stop work on the development of frigates of project 22350M. Information about the cancellation of plans to create a ship, circulated by a number of media outlets, is untrue. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a senior naval source...

    It's gonna take at least 10 years considering how slow Russians are these days. My opinion Super Gorshkov is something like Type 052D in terms of size. About 7500 tons.

    The creators stated a Super Gorsh will be about 7k (Light Displacement).

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