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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:47 pm

    Indeed in the Russian Navy 130mm guns were previously on destroyers (Sovremmeny) and Cruisers (Kirovs) and used for truck based coastal defence guns (Bereg).

    They have joint developed with the Army, the 152mm Coalition gun, which might be used on destroyers and cruisers... it will be interesting to see if the 130mm guns of the upgraded Kirov will be fitted with a 152mm Coalition mount.

    Performance is rather impressive and is in the process of being greatly extended...
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    Post  LMFS Mon May 10, 2021 6:24 am

    A nice picture with the position of the corridors at the sides of the UKSK cells in the 22350, interesting to understand the amount of free spaces for the reported increase in the VLS capacity of the project:
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 E09koxaXMAQUjIO?format=jpg&name=large

    If UKSK-M is simply a version with smaller clearance needs around it and compatibility with the 40-48N6 type of missiles, a 22350 with 4x VLS blocks would be substantially better armed against land/surface/submarine targets but also for AAW


    Last edited by LMFS on Mon May 10, 2021 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom Mon May 10, 2021 6:37 am

    bren_tann wrote:This is probably the largest caliber naval gun ever mounted on any light frigate class. By comparison, naval guns mounted on US navy  Burke destroyers and Tico cruisers are 127 mm (5 inches) and naval guns mounted on Chinese navy Type 052D heavy frigates and Type 055 destroyers are 130 mm.
    Modern yes, ever nope.

    Soviet DD Engels with a 305mm recolless rifle:
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 LRC2kJs69IJqxIf5I4fviqlMfa6KT5mI_Is-qOQOsQU

    USS Vesuvius with 380mm dynamite guns
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 Lossy-page1-789px-Vesuvius_%28dynamite-gun_cruiser%29._Port_bow%2C_underway%2C_1891_-_NARA_-_512899.tif

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    Post  GarryB Mon May 10, 2021 6:58 pm

    If UKSK-M is simply a version with smaller clearance needs around it and compatibility with the 40-48N6 type of missiles, a 22350 with 4x VLS blocks would be substantially better armed against land/surface/submarine targets but also for AAW

    There was that line drawing showing it holding BUK missiles as well as S-400 and S-350 missile types but also EW rockets and odd stuff.
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    Post  LMFS Tue May 11, 2021 5:34 am

    GarryB wrote:There was that line drawing showing it holding BUK missiles as well as S-400 and S-350 missile types but also EW rockets and odd stuff.

    That was pure speculation as far as I know, just a dimensional check
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    Post  LMFS Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm

    Admiral Golovko frigate to join Russian Navy in 2022

    In the medium term, the frigates of Project 22350 will form the basis of the ships of the far sea zone of the Northern Fleet

    SEVEROMORSK, May 13. /TASS/. The Admiral Golovko Project 22350 frigate will join the Russian Navy in 2022. This was announced by the commander of the Northern Fleet, Admiral Alexander Moiseev, at a briefing for Russian and foreign journalists aboard the nuclear-powered missile cruiser Peter the Great.

    According to him, in the medium term, frigates of the Admiral Gorshkov type (Project 22350) will form the basis of ships of the far sea zone of the Northern Fleet.

    "The next ship will be accepted next year. It will bear the name of the legendary commander of the Great Patriotic War, Commander of the Northern Fleet Arseniy Grigoryevich Golovko, " Moiseev said.

    He stressed that the ships of this project already have experience of long-distance voyages, have successfully proven themselves, and have confirmed all the inherent characteristics.

    "And with the adoption of modern weapons, of course, they will increase all their characteristics," the commander added.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11367669

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu May 13, 2021 9:43 pm


    Awesome to hear about increasing characteristics /s

    Now start increasing numbers already
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    Post  The_Observer Sun May 16, 2021 12:54 am

    Nice shot of Admiral Gorshkov-class, Admiral Golovko, at Severnaya Verf. The mast and sensors have been installed



    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 Gorshkov

    courtesy of @Grangere04117

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    Post  marat Mon May 17, 2021 12:03 am

    No new orders this year? Last two years two new ships were ordered 4 in total.

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    Post  Lurk83 Tue May 25, 2021 8:56 pm

    marat wrote:No new orders this year? Last two years two new ships were ordered 4 in total.

    Do they even have anywhere free they can lay down more hulls? Seems to me theyre not yet committing to raising output. Maybe they want to get more corvettes floated out first before increasing frigate output.
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 26, 2021 3:02 am

    They are treating upgraded destroyers as frigates (ie Udaloy etc) so in that sense they are getting more frigates... perhaps they want to produce corvettes first and get them into service before moving up to frigates...

    I would like to see them moving faster too, but getting it right is the most important thing really.

    I honestly suspect they might give up the idea of having a large number of frigates... during the cold war the Russian Navy didn't have very many frigates at all... the main frigate type was the Krivak class and most of those were part of the KGB/MVD coastal patrol force.

    I suspect they will make 6 or so Gorshkov frigates and use them as big corvettes and the follow on upgraded Gorshkov they will produce in decent numbers as a sort of light destroyer in the 8-10K class with better armament and endurance, and then go for an 18-19K ton cruiser type to replace the Kirov and Slava based upgraded ships.

    8-12 cruisers and 24 odd upgraded Gorshkov destroyers and perhaps 6 frigates, that will eventually lead to 4-6 cruisers in the northern and pacific fleets, and 8 Gorshkov destroyers in the northern and pacific fleets leaving four gorshkov destroyers at the baltic and black sea fleets each and three gorshkov frigates at each of the baltic and black sea fleets, and probably about 36-46 corvettes of different types spread across the five fleets...
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    Post  Lurk83 Wed May 26, 2021 4:08 am

    I guess a lot of it depends on the size of the naval groupings they want to put together... and how many ships with an endurance greater of 15 days they need. I.e how much power they want to be able to project in far seas zones/blue water. I would've thought they'd want like 10-12 gorshkov and 8 super gorshkov . Maybe they don't need so many.
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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:46 am

    Admiral Golovko, May 2021

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 E21zon10
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 E21zyp10

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    Post  George1 Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:19 am

    "Severnaya Verf" began preparation of the frigate "Admiral Golovko" for mooring trials
    Today, 10: 47

    The second serial frigate "Admiral Golovko" of project 22350 is being prepared for the beginning of mooring trials. This was reported by the press service of the Severnaya Verf shipyard.

    According to a press release received by Voennoye Obozreniye, the ship is completing work on the alignment of gearboxes, turbines, main diesel engines and shaft lines. The installation and electrical installation of the bow and stern main switchboards has been completed, the power supply has been launched. The preparation of the ship's service rooms is in progress.

    According to previously announced data, mooring trials of the ship will begin in June 2021, the crew will move in at the end of August, and the beginning of the mooring will begin in January 2022. The transfer of the frigate is scheduled for 2022, it will become part of the Northern fleet.

    "Admiral Golovko" was laid down on February 1, 2012. Unlike the lead Admiral Gorshkov and the first serial Admiral Kasatonov, which have Ukrainian gas turbine units (GTU), the Admiral Golovko has a completely Russian power plant. According to open information, the main power plant of Project 22350 frigates is a GTDA with a total capacity of 65 thousand liters. from. and diesel generators with a total capacity of 4 thousand kW.

    The frigate is named in honor of Arseniy Golovorovich Golovko (1906 - 1962), a sailor - a surface naval commander of the Northern Fleet during the Great Patriotic War.

    https://en.topwar.ru/183620-severnaja-verf-nachala-podgotovku-fregata-admiral-golovko-k-shvartovnym-ispytanijam.html

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    Post  owais.usmani Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:13 am

    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p9772777

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 Firesh23

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:21 am

    Why not offer other shipyards to build more as well?

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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Why not offer other shipyards to build more as well?

    That likely reflects the tooling and type of construction that they can engage in. Building up factories, which includes advanced
    shipyards, is not easy. We had this discussion over the Angara rocket already. There is no finger snapping of advanced production
    lines into existence. I have no information what sort of retooling is occurring at other shipyards that will enable construction of
    modern non-civilian ships. I don't think there is any such information available outside of superficial content.

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:47 am

    I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg. they both can do it. But possibly orders are already too much at current time.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:19 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg.  they both can do it.  But possibly orders are already too much at current time.

    It is not an issue of retooling, Mike.
    I used to work in shipbuilding for years, starting bottom up.
    I know how to wipe a drydock, and ended up in purchase, with $100mln projects in a pipeline.
    I am a guy, who actually used to run under a craft belly, once hanged over a supports...
    That is fun! as long as you forgot to be terrified Laughing
    Implementing a project to a shipyard, which has not contributed to its creation, is an overall mess.
    Different shipyards have different knowledge.
    One talks "welding is a welding' ... well ... not true.
    A shipyard can use different materials, which leads to a different experience for staff.
    All of them, are using different WPSs to get a job done.
    If you want to run a project in several shipyards same time, your goal is to educate tons of workers, starting from different safety procedures. Because in a yard A, that created that, delivery/assembling/access procedures are simply different.
    As long as you don't run a multi-series, it does not pays off ...
    8-10 psc, are hardly a multi-series, I was running a project with 30 vessels in a row.
    And none was same Twisted Evil Laughing

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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:33 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg.  they both can do it.  But possibly orders are already too much at current time.

    It is not an issue of retooling, Mike.
    I used to work in shipbuilding for years, starting bottom up.
    I know how to wipe a drydock, and ended up in purchase, with $100mln projects in a pipeline.
    I am a guy, who actually used to run under a craft belly, once hanged over a supports...
    That is fun! as long as you forgot to be terrified Laughing
    Implementing a project to a shipyard, which has not contributed to its creation, is an overall mess.
    Different shipyards have different knowledge.
    One talks "welding is a welding' ... well ... not true.
    A shipyard can use different materials, which leads to a different experience for staff.
    All of them, are using different WPSs to get a job done.
    If you want to run a project in several shipyards same time, your goal is to educate tons of workers, starting from different safety procedures. Because in a yard A, that created that, delivery/assembling/access procedures are simply different.
    As long as you don't run a multi-series, it does not pays off ...
    8-10 psc, are hardly a multi-series, I was running a project with 30 vessels in a row.
    And none was same Twisted Evil Laughing

    Training of skilled workers is one of the most painful aspects about any production line. But people think it is
    of little importance and that only money and directives matter. There is a real gap between naive theorizing
    and physical reality. So transitioning some shipyard into a Gorshkov production line is not an activity that
    occurs in a few months. Russia will be recovering from the 1990s for decades.

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:49 pm

    The Krivak frigates were produced at several shipyards no?
    It is not like there isn't a precedent.

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    Post  George1 Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:18 pm

    lancelot wrote:The Krivak frigates were produced at several shipyards no?
    At 3. Yantar, Kaliningrad / Zaliv, Kerch / Zhdanov, Leningrad

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    Post  JeremySun Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:41 pm

    lancelot wrote:The Krivak frigates were produced at several shipyards no?
    It is not like there isn't a precedent.

    But after USSR broke apart the shipyards were neglected. It takes decades of hard work to rebuild the shipyards to the standards they can manufacture modern frigates.
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    Post  limb Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:47 am

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Why not offer other shipyards to build more as well?

    That likely reflects the tooling and type of construction that they can engage in.   Building up factories, which includes advanced
    shipyards, is not easy.   We had this discussion over the Angara rocket already.    There is no finger snapping of advanced production
    lines into existence.    I have no information what sort of retooling is occurring at other shipyards that will enable construction of
    modern non-civilian ships.    I don't think there is any such information available outside of superficial content.


    Well the Chinese seem to do it easily enough with western tech, despite being sanctioned in regards to military and space tech since tianenmen. They seem to be building and Lau ching long March rockets at a large pace.

    Since this example is off topic, Ill use also the exame that all Chinese frigates and destroyers use reverse engineered zorya mashproekt turbines. How did they reverse engineer them so fast and set up high precision production lines for them, while the russian USC can't even get zvezda to produce shitty little obsolete marine diesels?
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    Post  limb Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:50 am

    kvs wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg.  they both can do it.  But possibly orders are already too much at current time.

    It is not an issue of retooling, Mike.
    I used to work in shipbuilding for years, starting bottom up.
    I know how to wipe a drydock, and ended up in purchase, with $100mln projects in a pipeline.
    I am a guy, who actually used to run under a craft belly, once hanged over a supports...
    That is fun! as long as you forgot to be terrified Laughing
    Implementing a project to a shipyard, which has not contributed to its creation, is an overall mess.
    Different shipyards have different knowledge.
    One talks "welding is a welding' ... well ... not true.
    A shipyard can use different materials, which leads to a different experience for staff.
    All of them, are using different WPSs to get a job done.
    If you want to run a project in several shipyards same time, your goal is to educate tons of workers, starting from different safety procedures. Because in a yard A, that created that, delivery/assembling/access procedures are simply different.
    As long as you don't run a multi-series, it does not pays off ...
    8-10 psc, are hardly a multi-series, I was running a project with 30 vessels in a row.
    And none was same Twisted Evil Laughing

    Training of skilled workers is one of the most painful aspects about any production line.   But people think it is
    of little importance and that only money and directives matter.   There is a real gap between naive theorizing
    and physical reality.    So transitioning some shipyard into a Gorshkov production line is not an activity that
    occurs in a few months.   Russia will be recovering from the 1990s for decades.


    Maybe some Chinese style re-education camps will help, since the Chinese destroyers seem to be built and be working just fine

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