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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri May 14, 2021 4:36 am

    Admiral Golovko frigate to join Russian Navy in 2022

    In the medium term, the frigates of Project 22350 will form the basis of the ships of the far sea zone of the Northern Fleet

    SEVEROMORSK, May 13. /TASS/. The Admiral Golovko Project 22350 frigate will join the Russian Navy in 2022. This was announced by the commander of the Northern Fleet, Admiral Alexander Moiseev, at a briefing for Russian and foreign journalists aboard the nuclear-powered missile cruiser Peter the Great.

    According to him, in the medium term, frigates of the Admiral Gorshkov type (Project 22350) will form the basis of ships of the far sea zone of the Northern Fleet.

    "The next ship will be accepted next year. It will bear the name of the legendary commander of the Great Patriotic War, Commander of the Northern Fleet Arseniy Grigoryevich Golovko, " Moiseev said.

    He stressed that the ships of this project already have experience of long-distance voyages, have successfully proven themselves, and have confirmed all the inherent characteristics.

    "And with the adoption of modern weapons, of course, they will increase all their characteristics," the commander added.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11367669

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri May 14, 2021 4:43 am


    Awesome to hear about increasing characteristics /s

    Now start increasing numbers already
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    Post  The_Observer Sun May 16, 2021 7:54 am

    Nice shot of Admiral Gorshkov-class, Admiral Golovko, at Severnaya Verf. The mast and sensors have been installed



    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 Gorshkov

    courtesy of @Grangere04117

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    Post  marat Mon May 17, 2021 7:03 am

    No new orders this year? Last two years two new ships were ordered 4 in total.

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    Post  Lurk83 Wed May 26, 2021 3:56 am

    marat wrote:No new orders this year? Last two years two new ships were ordered 4 in total.

    Do they even have anywhere free they can lay down more hulls? Seems to me theyre not yet committing to raising output. Maybe they want to get more corvettes floated out first before increasing frigate output.
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 26, 2021 10:02 am

    They are treating upgraded destroyers as frigates (ie Udaloy etc) so in that sense they are getting more frigates... perhaps they want to produce corvettes first and get them into service before moving up to frigates...

    I would like to see them moving faster too, but getting it right is the most important thing really.

    I honestly suspect they might give up the idea of having a large number of frigates... during the cold war the Russian Navy didn't have very many frigates at all... the main frigate type was the Krivak class and most of those were part of the KGB/MVD coastal patrol force.

    I suspect they will make 6 or so Gorshkov frigates and use them as big corvettes and the follow on upgraded Gorshkov they will produce in decent numbers as a sort of light destroyer in the 8-10K class with better armament and endurance, and then go for an 18-19K ton cruiser type to replace the Kirov and Slava based upgraded ships.

    8-12 cruisers and 24 odd upgraded Gorshkov destroyers and perhaps 6 frigates, that will eventually lead to 4-6 cruisers in the northern and pacific fleets, and 8 Gorshkov destroyers in the northern and pacific fleets leaving four gorshkov destroyers at the baltic and black sea fleets each and three gorshkov frigates at each of the baltic and black sea fleets, and probably about 36-46 corvettes of different types spread across the five fleets...
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    Post  Lurk83 Wed May 26, 2021 11:08 am

    I guess a lot of it depends on the size of the naval groupings they want to put together... and how many ships with an endurance greater of 15 days they need. I.e how much power they want to be able to project in far seas zones/blue water. I would've thought they'd want like 10-12 gorshkov and 8 super gorshkov . Maybe they don't need so many.
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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:46 pm

    Admiral Golovko, May 2021

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 E21zon10
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 E21zyp10

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    Post  George1 Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:19 pm

    "Severnaya Verf" began preparation of the frigate "Admiral Golovko" for mooring trials
    Today, 10: 47

    The second serial frigate "Admiral Golovko" of project 22350 is being prepared for the beginning of mooring trials. This was reported by the press service of the Severnaya Verf shipyard.

    According to a press release received by Voennoye Obozreniye, the ship is completing work on the alignment of gearboxes, turbines, main diesel engines and shaft lines. The installation and electrical installation of the bow and stern main switchboards has been completed, the power supply has been launched. The preparation of the ship's service rooms is in progress.

    According to previously announced data, mooring trials of the ship will begin in June 2021, the crew will move in at the end of August, and the beginning of the mooring will begin in January 2022. The transfer of the frigate is scheduled for 2022, it will become part of the Northern fleet.

    "Admiral Golovko" was laid down on February 1, 2012. Unlike the lead Admiral Gorshkov and the first serial Admiral Kasatonov, which have Ukrainian gas turbine units (GTU), the Admiral Golovko has a completely Russian power plant. According to open information, the main power plant of Project 22350 frigates is a GTDA with a total capacity of 65 thousand liters. from. and diesel generators with a total capacity of 4 thousand kW.

    The frigate is named in honor of Arseniy Golovorovich Golovko (1906 - 1962), a sailor - a surface naval commander of the Northern Fleet during the Great Patriotic War.

    https://en.topwar.ru/183620-severnaja-verf-nachala-podgotovku-fregata-admiral-golovko-k-shvartovnym-ispytanijam.html

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    Post  owais.usmani Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:13 pm

    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p9772777

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 30 Firesh23

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:21 pm

    Why not offer other shipyards to build more as well?

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    Post  kvs Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:35 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Why not offer other shipyards to build more as well?

    That likely reflects the tooling and type of construction that they can engage in. Building up factories, which includes advanced
    shipyards, is not easy. We had this discussion over the Angara rocket already. There is no finger snapping of advanced production
    lines into existence. I have no information what sort of retooling is occurring at other shipyards that will enable construction of
    modern non-civilian ships. I don't think there is any such information available outside of superficial content.

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:47 pm

    I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg. they both can do it. But possibly orders are already too much at current time.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:19 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg.  they both can do it.  But possibly orders are already too much at current time.

    It is not an issue of retooling, Mike.
    I used to work in shipbuilding for years, starting bottom up.
    I know how to wipe a drydock, and ended up in purchase, with $100mln projects in a pipeline.
    I am a guy, who actually used to run under a craft belly, once hanged over a supports...
    That is fun! as long as you forgot to be terrified Laughing
    Implementing a project to a shipyard, which has not contributed to its creation, is an overall mess.
    Different shipyards have different knowledge.
    One talks "welding is a welding' ... well ... not true.
    A shipyard can use different materials, which leads to a different experience for staff.
    All of them, are using different WPSs to get a job done.
    If you want to run a project in several shipyards same time, your goal is to educate tons of workers, starting from different safety procedures. Because in a yard A, that created that, delivery/assembling/access procedures are simply different.
    As long as you don't run a multi-series, it does not pays off ...
    8-10 psc, are hardly a multi-series, I was running a project with 30 vessels in a row.
    And none was same Twisted Evil Laughing

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    Post  kvs Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:33 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg.  they both can do it.  But possibly orders are already too much at current time.

    It is not an issue of retooling, Mike.
    I used to work in shipbuilding for years, starting bottom up.
    I know how to wipe a drydock, and ended up in purchase, with $100mln projects in a pipeline.
    I am a guy, who actually used to run under a craft belly, once hanged over a supports...
    That is fun! as long as you forgot to be terrified Laughing
    Implementing a project to a shipyard, which has not contributed to its creation, is an overall mess.
    Different shipyards have different knowledge.
    One talks "welding is a welding' ... well ... not true.
    A shipyard can use different materials, which leads to a different experience for staff.
    All of them, are using different WPSs to get a job done.
    If you want to run a project in several shipyards same time, your goal is to educate tons of workers, starting from different safety procedures. Because in a yard A, that created that, delivery/assembling/access procedures are simply different.
    As long as you don't run a multi-series, it does not pays off ...
    8-10 psc, are hardly a multi-series, I was running a project with 30 vessels in a row.
    And none was same Twisted Evil Laughing

    Training of skilled workers is one of the most painful aspects about any production line. But people think it is
    of little importance and that only money and directives matter. There is a real gap between naive theorizing
    and physical reality. So transitioning some shipyard into a Gorshkov production line is not an activity that
    occurs in a few months. Russia will be recovering from the 1990s for decades.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:49 am

    The Krivak frigates were produced at several shipyards no?
    It is not like there isn't a precedent.

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    Post  George1 Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:18 am

    lancelot wrote:The Krivak frigates were produced at several shipyards no?
    At 3. Yantar, Kaliningrad / Zaliv, Kerch / Zhdanov, Leningrad

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    Post  JeremySun Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:41 am

    lancelot wrote:The Krivak frigates were produced at several shipyards no?
    It is not like there isn't a precedent.

    But after USSR broke apart the shipyards were neglected. It takes decades of hard work to rebuild the shipyards to the standards they can manufacture modern frigates.
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    Post  limb Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:47 am

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Why not offer other shipyards to build more as well?

    That likely reflects the tooling and type of construction that they can engage in.   Building up factories, which includes advanced
    shipyards, is not easy.   We had this discussion over the Angara rocket already.    There is no finger snapping of advanced production
    lines into existence.    I have no information what sort of retooling is occurring at other shipyards that will enable construction of
    modern non-civilian ships.    I don't think there is any such information available outside of superficial content.


    Well the Chinese seem to do it easily enough with western tech, despite being sanctioned in regards to military and space tech since tianenmen. They seem to be building and Lau ching long March rockets at a large pace.

    Since this example is off topic, Ill use also the exame that all Chinese frigates and destroyers use reverse engineered zorya mashproekt turbines. How did they reverse engineer them so fast and set up high precision production lines for them, while the russian USC can't even get zvezda to produce shitty little obsolete marine diesels?
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    Post  limb Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:50 am

    kvs wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I know at least two shipyards that had retoolings done not long ago. Kaliningrad and the one is st.peterburg.  they both can do it.  But possibly orders are already too much at current time.

    It is not an issue of retooling, Mike.
    I used to work in shipbuilding for years, starting bottom up.
    I know how to wipe a drydock, and ended up in purchase, with $100mln projects in a pipeline.
    I am a guy, who actually used to run under a craft belly, once hanged over a supports...
    That is fun! as long as you forgot to be terrified Laughing
    Implementing a project to a shipyard, which has not contributed to its creation, is an overall mess.
    Different shipyards have different knowledge.
    One talks "welding is a welding' ... well ... not true.
    A shipyard can use different materials, which leads to a different experience for staff.
    All of them, are using different WPSs to get a job done.
    If you want to run a project in several shipyards same time, your goal is to educate tons of workers, starting from different safety procedures. Because in a yard A, that created that, delivery/assembling/access procedures are simply different.
    As long as you don't run a multi-series, it does not pays off ...
    8-10 psc, are hardly a multi-series, I was running a project with 30 vessels in a row.
    And none was same Twisted Evil Laughing

    Training of skilled workers is one of the most painful aspects about any production line.   But people think it is
    of little importance and that only money and directives matter.   There is a real gap between naive theorizing
    and physical reality.    So transitioning some shipyard into a Gorshkov production line is not an activity that
    occurs in a few months.   Russia will be recovering from the 1990s for decades.


    Maybe some Chinese style re-education camps will help, since the Chinese destroyers seem to be built and be working just fine
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:02 am

    Their new frigates are much more capable than previous generation frigates and I suspect they might be thinking they don't want a lot of frigates which are essentially just really big coastal corvettes with better armament.

    I think they will seriously upgrade the design of the Gorshkov and treat it like a destroyer and put that into large scale production instead because it will be more useful in the long term than a Gorshkov frigate design.

    Maybe some Chinese style re-education camps will help, since the Chinese destroyers seem to be built and be working just fine

    How do you know they are fine until they start to get used for the jobs they were built for?

    Throwing money at a problem and making lots of ships is not a good indication of how good or useful those ships actually are.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:12 am

    limb wrote:Maybe some Chinese style re-education camps will help, since the Chinese destroyers seem to be built and be working just fine

    That works just fine because they consider a big serial production.
    Type 056 is a 70+ series.
    Type 054 is running steady, full speed ahead for 50 ...
    Ruskies are ding just the same, as long as it pays off - 22800 is an ideal example.

    lancelot wrote:The Krivak frigates were produced at several shipyards no?
    It is not like there isn't a precedent.

    But of course.
    It was planned to build approx. 50 pcs of the type, in a relatively short time period.

    As some of you already mentioned, Russian shipbuilding was practically destroyed in the 90s.
    Plus, which is not a piece of common knowledge, they were never fully independent.
    Tons of other shipyards along the soviet block worked for them.
    Thousands of workers in Poland worked for w soviet yards for years.
    Poland used to deliver tons of stuff, GDR was doing just the same.
    There was a specialization among SEW (not sure about the English acronym for that).
    When SEW ceased to exist, the cooperation net was simply crashed&broken.
    That ended up with trouble years for all shipbuilding across ex-communist block, and actually, it never recovered in its original shape.
    Poland, which used to have a very competitive marine sector, lost most of its competence as well. A country that owned three modern and big shipyards, several experienced repair & maintenance ones, delivered the biggest bulk carriers build in the entire Baltic basin, is able to make a crawler now ...
    To be honest, the reincarnation of modern Russian shipbuilding is nothing else than impressive...

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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:09 am

    Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if in the future they plan to use more than one shipyard to build ships if the demand is there by training the crew.

    Anyway, more gorshkovs are needed.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:48 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Thanks for the explanation.  I wonder if in the future they plan to use more than one shipyard to build ships if the demand is there by training the crew.

    Anyway, more gorshkovs are needed.

    Consider it from another angle.
    In Russia, all 22800, 22160 and 21631 are being built at multiple facilities.
    22800 is the best example because it is implemented for production at 5 yards if I am not mistaken.
    So there is no point in discussing Russian planning from can/can't perspective, because it is clear that they can do that if needed.
    Seems that decision-makers do not find crucial the urgent need to float dozens of 22350.
    Competence is visibly rising, for the whole Russian marine sector.
    That will bring continuous changes and improvements all over the branch.
    2014 was a devastating blow for the sector, and no matter how much cash you can burn - it would not help.
    What was needed, was a time. Time to build up the sector bottom up. To establish a cooperative chain of supply. To gain, implement and master some skills, that was hardly existing in whole Russia prior to the date.
    If one would say, that they will start to make a full spectrum of marine engines after 5 years of evaluation, I would call him a jocker any time before that.
    I am not sure about steel sheet delivery, but when I was in the business, that was almost 20 years ago, a visible share of marine steel was melted at Donbas. As long as we have not seen bright & shiny Ukrainian shipbuilding at all, my educated guess is that some share of that steel was ordered by Russia, right? Wink
    To make a significant steel production capacity, it took three 5-years plans of Soviet Union, and thousands of lives thrown into the fire for that ...
    22350 running at a steady peak of 2 per year for 3rd year in a row.
    What stability means for this business, is enough to see the 636 story.
    In the last 20 years, they made about 30 pcs of it Shocked
    Show me the country other than China, able to make 1.5 subs a year ... keeping in mind that they are launching atomic subs at, same time...
    It is a matter of need, not ability.
    That's my point.

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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:05 am

    And definitely a valid point and I agree.

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