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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:44 pm

    If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:11 am

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.

    Never heard of a Type 54B. 54s are frigates, so do you mean Type 52B? If so, you're an idiot as the 52B (&51C) was just a stepping stone design.  Operationally the 22350/22350M will be at least equal to Type 52C/D even if they have a little less displacement, and will have a decided technological edge as current generation Russian SAMs and AShMs are superior than their Chinese counterparts.

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    Post  franco Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 pm

    Case No. 22350 gets off the ground

    United Engine Corporation handed over to the customer the first fully domestic diesel-gas turbine unit М55Р for frigates of Project 22350. And the shipment of the second unit is scheduled for early December.

    Is there a reason for joy? In general, there is. The frigates of project 22350 "Admiral Isakov" and "Admiral Golovko", which have risen dead, will finally get the opportunity to get into service.

    True, with a delay of 2.5 years. Now this is called at length "shifting the timeline to the right," but we are well aware that this is so ornately called the inability to complete the construction within the specified time frame.

    "Admiral Isakov" was supposed to receive its power plant in 2018. In the month of July, specifically. Received a little later, which is still a reason for expressing satisfaction. Looking back over the years.

    According to the agreement signed in 2015, the so-called ship kit for the frigate "Admiral Isakov" cost 2.295 billion rubles. The ship kit consisted of two M55R diesel-gas turbine units. According to the contract, it was envisaged to build:

    • control systems "Metel-55" and "Sheksna-90", vibration diagnostic equipment VDA-56.
    The cost of one set is 102 million rubles, the production period is July 2016.
    • diesel engine 10D49 with "Blizzard" control system.
    The cost of one set is 108 million rubles, the production period is September 2017.
    • PO55 reducer, transmission, VSM37 / M55R.
    The cost of one set is 299 million rubles, the production period is December 2017.
    • gas turbine engine M90FR with transmission elements.
    The cost of one set is 593 million rubles, the production period is November-December 2017.

    In general, they were a little late.

    Moreover, the first ship kit is intended for the frigate "Admiral Isakov", which is still at the stage of slipway construction. Meanwhile, the frigate "Admiral Golovko", which was left without a propulsion system, will receive only the second set.

    This is due to the fact that it is necessary to renegotiate a bunch of agreements and contracts, since the supplier of engines for "Admiral Golovko" is still legally considered CJSC "Turborus", a Russian-Ukrainian joint venture, which includes the well-known NPO Saturn and GP NPKG " Zorya "-" Mashproekt "from Ukraine.

    I translate: JSC "Turborus" exists only nominally on paper and will not be able to deliver anything to anyone. Because Zorya - Mashproekt will not supply M90F gas turbine engines and PO55 gearboxes for frigates under construction in Russia.

    The case when the bureaucracy is unable to replay political differences. And nevertheless, you will first have to annul a mountain of international treaties and contracts, and then conclude new ones. We will not discuss how quickly this is done in Russia. I just want to express my wish that Admiral Golovko will still be put into operation at least by the end of 2022.

    And the frigates of Project 22350 will use Russian M55R engines. Evil tongues claim that these are full-fledged clones of the Ukrainian M90F, which were still a Soviet development. This means nothing "at the level of the leading NATO countries," as the optimistic part of the infosphere claims.

    And here I would like to note the following: well, a clone of a Soviet-made Ukrainian-made engine. Perhaps not as modern as we would like, but ...

    There is no other, as it were. Dancing with the Germans around their engines ended in sanctions and a lack of supplies. Friendship with the Chinese around their copies of German engines ended in urgent overhauls with original solutions, such as cutting the ship's hull.

    Indeed, a copy of the old Soviet engine is better. But this engine can be assembled, installed, repaired. And no problem with parts and repair kits.

    By the way, unofficial, but rather numerous, reports appeared in the press on the topic that the first ship kit, after all, by a voluntaristic decision of someone very high above, will be put on "Admiral Golovko".

    A very logical decision, since the frigate is already practically on the water and the expectation of the second set can easily turn it into another long-term construction. Although, in principle, "Golovko" is already long-term construction. Since 2012.

    And the way out is quite normal: without waiting for thousands of papers to be processed, put the engines on the ship that can start using them faster. Only the building is being completed for Isakov, so they can definitely wait there.

    I wonder how this news perceived there, abroad? It is clear that this is not about NATO, it is funny for them to look at a couple of frigates. We are talking about the GP NPKG "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" from the city of Nikolaev, a glorious naval tradition, whose M90F engines are on the first two frigates of project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" and "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov".

    Politically, not politically, but that's it, this page is turned. Yes, it was very difficult to turn it over, yes, most likely, in technical terms, this is a step back, but if the M55P really go into production, then this is only for the benefit of Russian shipbuilding.

    And once, some 30 years ago, the Soviet Union was considered a very advanced country in terms of ship propulsion ...

    So, it can be stated that the UEC "Saturn" from Rybinsk coped and the engines were issued.

    This is very excellent information, the main thing is that in Rybinsk they could actually build them not by the piece, but in series. Because these engines are needed not just like air, but were needed yesterday.


    Photo: Press Service of the Northern Fleet, mil.ru

    Yesterday is when not only two Project 22350 frigates, which are being built now, but also four frigates of the same project, laid down in 2019-2020, were left without power plants. Plus, even in Kaliningrad, three frigates of the 11356r project have been unable to torment them since 2013 for the same reason: the lack of engines.

    So it only remains to wish the Rybinsk engine builders real success in mastering the serial production of engines that are so necessary for the fleet.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:25 am

    Like most things they need to get these engines into a ship and run it to make sure it is good... I would think the plan should have been to build two engines to start with and get them into ships as fast as possible and then check to make sure the work as expected before clearing them for serial production.

    The other ship they don't have propulsion for that is simply not worth making an engine for because it will be a one off... perhaps they could try an experimental propulsion system... like all electric drive with various experimental electricity generation systems to test and try...

    I would think even with no new ships planned in that range that making spare parts and repair kits would be necessary anyway so work on that engine design would still make sense...
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    Post  mnztr Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:50 am

    what ship do they not have propulsion for?
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    Post  Lurk83 Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:53 am

    mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

    11356, no?
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    Post  Lurk83 Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:32 am

    Hmmn. Is the m55p engine really a copy of a soviet engine with no improvement?
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    Post  mnztr Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:54 am

    Lurk83 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

    11356, no?

    Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

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    Post  Lurk83 Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:56 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Lurk83 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

    11356, no?

    Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

    Maybe but Are they to use the same engine as gorshkov class? I have no idea? If not which engine?
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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:51 am

    Lurk83 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    Lurk83 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

    11356, no?

    Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

    Maybe but Are they to use the same engine as gorshkov class?

    Nope.

    You need to spend some time and go through the past pages of both 22350 and 11356 threads, you'll get most of your answers.
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    Post  walle83 Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:25 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Tai Hai Chen wrote:If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.

    Never heard of a Type 54B. 54s are frigates, so do you mean Type 52B? If so, you're an idiot as the 52B (&51C) was just a stepping stone design.  Operationally the 22350/22350M will be at least equal to Type 52C/D even if they have a little less displacement, and will have a decided technological edge as current generation Russian SAMs and AShMs are superior than their Chinese counterparts.

    The 054B is a frigate under development in China. Production planned for the 2021-2025 ship building program. So no his not an idiot, about that.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:43 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Lurk83 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

    11356, no?

    Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

    Manufacturer claims there is an improvement. I woudl find it surprising they did not take the opportunity to make some changes. I would consider it a mod kinda like the NK32 -02. The GE engine used in many western ships is also pretty ancient being based on an old DC-10 engine.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:Like most things they need to get these engines into a ship and run it to make sure it is good... I would think the plan should have been to build two engines to start with and get them into ships as fast as possible and then check to make sure the work as expected before clearing them for serial production.

    The other ship they don't have propulsion for that is simply not worth making an engine for because it will be a one off... perhaps they could try an experimental propulsion system... like all electric drive with various experimental electricity generation systems to test and try...

    I would think even with no new ships planned in that range that making spare parts and repair kits would be necessary anyway so work on that engine design would still make sense...

    Hmm maybe they can fit the system from the 20386 in there and add an additional genset to power it?
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:31 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Tai Hai Chen wrote:If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.

    Never heard of a Type 54B. 54s are frigates, so do you mean Type 52B? If so, you're an idiot as the 52B (&51C) was just a stepping stone design.  Operationally the 22350/22350M will be at least equal to Type 52C/D even if they have a little less displacement, and will have a decided technological edge as current generation Russian SAMs and AShMs are superior than their Chinese counterparts.

    The 054B is a frigate under development in China. Production planned for the 2021-2025 ship building program. So no his not an idiot, about that.

    Following up on this, it seems that the so-called "Type 054B" is so far an unconfirmed rumour, and no such program has been actually confirmed.  China being what it is of course, they feel no obligation to broadcast their intentions to their adversaries, so it's likely to be a real project, or at least, one being considered. Time wil tell.
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    Post  walle83 Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:11 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Tai Hai Chen wrote:If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.

    Never heard of a Type 54B. 54s are frigates, so do you mean Type 52B? If so, you're an idiot as the 52B (&51C) was just a stepping stone design.  Operationally the 22350/22350M will be at least equal to Type 52C/D even if they have a little less displacement, and will have a decided technological edge as current generation Russian SAMs and AShMs are superior than their Chinese counterparts.

    The 054B is a frigate under development in China. Production planned for the 2021-2025 ship building program. So no his not an idiot, about that.

    Following up on this, it seems that the so-called "Type 054B" is so far an unconfirmed rumour, and no such program has been actually confirmed.  China being what it is of course, they feel no obligation to broadcast their intentions to their adversaries, so it's likely to be a real project, or at least, one being considered.  Time wil tell.

    Well China never confirms anything before its launched basicly. dunno  But everrything points to that a new frigate should soon be in the works.

    https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/what-will-the-chinese-navys-next-frigate-look-like/
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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:37 am

    Even if they copy the old bog standard turbines and systems the improvements in materials and technology and simply just manufacturing quality should result in a significant improvement in performance and efficiency, but I would think other navies will want gas turbine propulsion systems and they are optimising a family of brand new state of the art technology civilian jet engines that can be scaled to meet different needs in different weight classes for aircraft, ground based power generation systems and naval propulsion... so why not apply that for these ships.

    The Talwars used combined gas turbine and gas turbine propulsion.

    Originally ships were diesel powered because they were fuel efficient and reliable and their large size and heavy weight was not really a big problem.

    Later on gas turbines were used but mainly to add sprinting power for diesel powered ships so you would have a big diesel engine or two and some gas turbine engines as well with the diesels for normal cruise and low speed operations and the diesels and the Gas turbines together for bursts of speed for chasing other ships or chasing down a submarine.

    Well the Krivak class were combined gas turbine and gas turbine... if you scale them correctly they can be efficient for cruise and sprint operations... the secret is to get the power levels just right so when cruising the GTs you are running are operating at fuel efficient speeds and not wasting fuel. When needing to sprint all the GTs can be run giving the extra power needed for high speed chases.

    Very efficient and reliable gas turbines would be very useful in an electric design because a gas turbine connected to an electric motor is an efficient way of generating electrical power (where the electric motor acts as a dynamo).
    This also means there does not need to be huge shafts between the motors and the propellers so you could put a few GT a significant distance apart and could be used as ballast to weight the ship reducing weight and providing extra features...

    it also means complex gearboxes and transmissions become redundant too.
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    Post  mnztr Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:44 am

    What are the Chinese using for engines? The ones they sold the Russians were terrible.

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:40 pm

    https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_1787014

    Photos of the 130mm A-192M naval gun for the Admiral Golovko Project 22350 frigate being transported.

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 29 Hedfnj10
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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:11 pm

    https://ria.ru/20210325/fregat-1602842255.html

    MURMANSK, 25 Mar - RIA Novosti. The frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov , which is part of the Northern Fleet's missile ship division, successfully fired its main missile system at a coastal target on Novaya Zemlya , the press service of the fleet reported.
    "The rocket fire took place in the morning in the Barents Sea . The target, located on the South Island of the Novaya Zemlya archipelago, was successfully hit by the Onyx cruise missile at a distance of over 300 kilometers from the launch point," the message says.
    It is noted that the icebreaker " Ilya Muromets ", the multifunctional logistic support ship "Elbrus" and the sea tugboat "MB-110" of the Northern Fleet carried out the protection of the water area and the provision of firing . The shooting took place at the Barents Sea combat training ground, closed to civilian shipping and aviation.
    The frigate "Admiral of the Soviet Union Fleet Gorshkov" sailed into the Barents Sea on Wednesday. "During this exit, the frigate's crew will work out a number of elements of the combat training course and fire missile and artillery weapons," the Navy explained.
    In 2020, the frigate "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" conducted a complex of tests of modern hypersonic sea-based weapons in the White Sea, having performed several successful test firing of the "Zircon" hypersonic missile.
    The frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov was built at the Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg and entered the Navy in July 2018. Successfully completed the tasks of several exercises and circumnavigation.
    Project 22350 frigates are multifunctional warships capable of effectively fighting surface, air and underwater enemies, as well as striking land and coastal targets over a distance of over 1,500 kilometers.
    Currently, the Northern Fleet has two such frigates: "Admiral of the Soviet Union Fleet Gorshkov" and "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov". The third frigate, named after the legendary commander of the Northern Fleet during the Great Patriotic War, Admiral Arseny Grigorievich Golovko, is being completed at the Severnaya Verf enterprise in St. Petersburg.

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