Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

marcellogo wrote:

Certainly, most are not enough armed (above all when it come to ASM) but again, you will need sensors to use weapons, you need endurance at sea to escort convoy, you need comfortable lodging for both crew than marine infantry  if you want to use your ships in an year long anti-piracy mission off somali coast.

I think my own navy have made a very good job on balancing off both firepower than sea worthiness (above constructive and security standards, sorry for others but it is just a no contest) of our own ships above all in comparison to Uk and France and their delusions of remaining a world power by building loads of cheap ships. And they had to admit it.    

And I think also Russia is doing a damn fine job a.t.m, despite BIG DIFFICULTIES, just keep on into balancing ambitions with realism (i.e. avoid jingoism) and we would end on laughing together at our respective competitor's expense.
We already do.

Exactly.

The design requirements are different , the Russian ships designed for home defense/wages life and death war, the Western ones to keep the colonial empire humming.

GarryB wrote:

Yes of course the USA trys to sabotage and Russia tries to sabotage back etc etc, it is an age old game that will never end,

Russia tries to sabotage back?  When did that happen?

Just of the top of my head I would say Vietnam, Donald Trump, Brexit....just to name a few.

An ICBM or similar has wide range of available fuel, as the specificatione/requirement go up into extreme the available materials/fuels get restricted.

But no matter what the chemical combination they all have to react violently in what can only be described as a controlled explosion to lift the weapon and carry it thousands of kilometres away in a few minutes.

So, in an ICBM it is possible to choose the fuel based on operational characteristic, in a hypersonic air breathing engine it is not neccessary . - But ,again, we have no clue .

All engines require fuel, and air breathing engines have vastly more dense fuel content than rockets that must generate an oxygen rich environment for the fuel to burn... the petrol in your car... if heated to thousands of degrees C and exposed to air would explode violently.... a solid rocket engine has fuel that mixed with material to rapidly generate free oxygen to burn the fuel rapidly... a jet powered missile just carries the fuel and a solid rocket component to get it moving.

Either way volatile chemicals and oxygen generating material in an enclosed space.

And if they don't want to get access to the tubes on sea why the space between them is so big ?

Because the centre part of the ship goes down 4-5 decks and they probably don't want to seal the front of the ship off from the rear of the ship by blocking it with missiles.

The SS-N-19 missiles on the Kirov class ships were all mounted side by side in a five by four grid array... which means the five across the front and five across the rear and the four up either side could be accessed, but the 6 missiles in the centre of the grid simply can't be reached at all... and if they can't be reached then why would you need to reach the other 14 missiles around the outside?

The missiles in a TOR SAM system on land can't be reached and manually checked on the ground... you would have to lift them out of their tubes to do so...

It's the main radar of a Gorskhov better than the one of a Daring DDG or even of a Bergamini FFG (Aquitaine is too an easy bet)?

Individually probably not, but tied in to their dedicated naval satellite network then yes...

Try to understand: I really like them, same can say about Steregushchiy, Gremyashchiy and Karakurt (as we italian build similarly well armed ships) but just counting VSL without looking at the whole capability of a class of ship. is IMHO an inane exercise.

You are quite right... anyone suggesting Russia could simply forego a real navy and just make hundreds of corvettes does not understand the navy or how things work in the real world... however having said that it is hard to ignore the ability to load into a launch tube a missile that can fly over 1,000km at more than mach 9 and sink most ships most of the time...

Most western vessels do not have nearly enough offensive capacity

The politicians directing their use are often offensive enough.

Certainly, most are not enough armed (above all when it come to ASM) but again, you will need sensors to use weapons, you need endurance at sea to escort convoy, you need comfortable lodging for both crew than marine infantry if you want to use your ships in an year long anti-piracy mission off somali coast.

Most HATO navies don't expect to be fighting most of the rest of the world on their own with no chance of help.

[quote]
And I think also Russia is doing a damn fine job a.t.m, despite BIG DIFFICULTIES, just keep on into balancing ambitions with realism (i.e. avoid jingoism) and we would end on laughing together at our respective competitor's expense./quote]

You can see the danger in the upgrade the old Kirovs thread... some think having too many missile tubes is not actually possible and that it is actually a goal they should be trying to achieve...

the Russian ships designed for home defense/wages life and death war, the Western ones to keep the colonial empire humming.

The Russian ships will be defending themselves and their allies where they can... facing an alliance of useful idiots... the western navies just need to pick and choose which alliance of idiots they join... safety in numbers and all that... perhaps the plan is to look so weak as to not be worth a missile...

Singular_Transform wrote:

marcellogo wrote:

Certainly, most are not enough armed (above all when it come to ASM) but again, you will need sensors to use weapons, you need endurance at sea to escort convoy, you need comfortable lodging for both crew than marine infantry  if you want to use your ships in an year long anti-piracy mission off somali coast.

I think my own navy have made a very good job on balancing off both firepower than sea worthiness (above constructive and security standards, sorry for others but it is just a no contest) of our own ships above all in comparison to Uk and France and their delusions of remaining a world power by building loads of cheap ships. And they had to admit it.    

And I think also Russia is doing a damn fine job a.t.m, despite BIG DIFFICULTIES, just keep on into balancing ambitions with realism (i.e. avoid jingoism) and we would end on laughing together at our respective competitor's expense.
We already do.

Exactly.

The design requirements are different , the Russian ships designed for home defense/wages life and death war, the Western ones to keep the colonial empire humming.

Hence because our own ships, having us a colonial empire no more (and it was not big anyway either then) and having no delusion of retain a Great Power status, tend to be just damn fine, being both well armed and able to keep the sea for a long time.

We obviously achieved it through time but decisive choice was taken almost at the beginning: NO COMPROMISE ON QUALITY, as lowering constructive standards kill sailors in war and fleets in peacetime.

Just of the top of my head I would say Vietnam, Donald Trump, Brexit....just to name a few.

WTF?

Afghanistan was clearly revenge against Russia regarding US experience with Vietnam they admitted as much themselves ...but neither Russia nor the Soviet Union made America invade a sovereign country and try to force its values and electoral system on the local people.

The Vietnamese after suffering under French colonial rule didn't need the Soviets to tell them the Americans would be worse and now is as good a time to get rid of those   .

If you have any evidence that Russia had anything to do with Trump getting elected...by all means please post it.... so far all claims of influencing the election were proven to be bullshit... Russian advertising during the election was found to be a tiny percent of any other advertising and its content was shown to not favour any particular candidate.... in fact Google offered them million dollar packages which they didn't take up. Claims Russia got Trump elected is Hillary Butthurt Clinton explaining why she lost the election to a fucking moron. A large portion of Trump voters probably voted for him as the lessor of two evils to the devils sister Hillary. I would say more than a few Bernie Sanders supporters also voted Trump in revenge for her screwing him out of the election.

I honestly think Bernie could have beaten Trump, but Hillary had no chance.


And Brexit?

The UK did that to themselves... Russia was not involved... the Brits never even suggested that the Russians were involved AFAIK.

Well the BBC probably blames the Russians but then they make shit up all the time and blame Russia for it... that is their job and why they get called big black cocksuckers...

If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.

Case No. 22350 gets off the ground

United Engine Corporation handed over to the customer the first fully domestic diesel-gas turbine unit М55Р for frigates of Project 22350. And the shipment of the second unit is scheduled for early December.

Is there a reason for joy? In general, there is. The frigates of project 22350 "Admiral Isakov" and "Admiral Golovko", which have risen dead, will finally get the opportunity to get into service.

True, with a delay of 2.5 years. Now this is called at length "shifting the timeline to the right," but we are well aware that this is so ornately called the inability to complete the construction within the specified time frame.

"Admiral Isakov" was supposed to receive its power plant in 2018. In the month of July, specifically. Received a little later, which is still a reason for expressing satisfaction. Looking back over the years.

According to the agreement signed in 2015, the so-called ship kit for the frigate "Admiral Isakov" cost 2.295 billion rubles. The ship kit consisted of two M55R diesel-gas turbine units. According to the contract, it was envisaged to build:

• control systems "Metel-55" and "Sheksna-90", vibration diagnostic equipment VDA-56.
The cost of one set is 102 million rubles, the production period is July 2016.
• diesel engine 10D49 with "Blizzard" control system.
The cost of one set is 108 million rubles, the production period is September 2017.
• PO55 reducer, transmission, VSM37 / M55R.
The cost of one set is 299 million rubles, the production period is December 2017.
• gas turbine engine M90FR with transmission elements.
The cost of one set is 593 million rubles, the production period is November-December 2017.

In general, they were a little late.

Moreover, the first ship kit is intended for the frigate "Admiral Isakov", which is still at the stage of slipway construction. Meanwhile, the frigate "Admiral Golovko", which was left without a propulsion system, will receive only the second set.

This is due to the fact that it is necessary to renegotiate a bunch of agreements and contracts, since the supplier of engines for "Admiral Golovko" is still legally considered CJSC "Turborus", a Russian-Ukrainian joint venture, which includes the well-known NPO Saturn and GP NPKG " Zorya "-" Mashproekt "from Ukraine.

I translate: JSC "Turborus" exists only nominally on paper and will not be able to deliver anything to anyone. Because Zorya - Mashproekt will not supply M90F gas turbine engines and PO55 gearboxes for frigates under construction in Russia.

The case when the bureaucracy is unable to replay political differences. And nevertheless, you will first have to annul a mountain of international treaties and contracts, and then conclude new ones. We will not discuss how quickly this is done in Russia. I just want to express my wish that Admiral Golovko will still be put into operation at least by the end of 2022.

And the frigates of Project 22350 will use Russian M55R engines. Evil tongues claim that these are full-fledged clones of the Ukrainian M90F, which were still a Soviet development. This means nothing "at the level of the leading NATO countries," as the optimistic part of the infosphere claims.

And here I would like to note the following: well, a clone of a Soviet-made Ukrainian-made engine. Perhaps not as modern as we would like, but ...

There is no other, as it were. Dancing with the Germans around their engines ended in sanctions and a lack of supplies. Friendship with the Chinese around their copies of German engines ended in urgent overhauls with original solutions, such as cutting the ship's hull.

Indeed, a copy of the old Soviet engine is better. But this engine can be assembled, installed, repaired. And no problem with parts and repair kits.

By the way, unofficial, but rather numerous, reports appeared in the press on the topic that the first ship kit, after all, by a voluntaristic decision of someone very high above, will be put on "Admiral Golovko".

A very logical decision, since the frigate is already practically on the water and the expectation of the second set can easily turn it into another long-term construction. Although, in principle, "Golovko" is already long-term construction. Since 2012.

And the way out is quite normal: without waiting for thousands of papers to be processed, put the engines on the ship that can start using them faster. Only the building is being completed for Isakov, so they can definitely wait there.

I wonder how this news perceived there, abroad? It is clear that this is not about NATO, it is funny for them to look at a couple of frigates. We are talking about the GP NPKG "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" from the city of Nikolaev, a glorious naval tradition, whose M90F engines are on the first two frigates of project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" and "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov".

Politically, not politically, but that's it, this page is turned. Yes, it was very difficult to turn it over, yes, most likely, in technical terms, this is a step back, but if the M55P really go into production, then this is only for the benefit of Russian shipbuilding.

And once, some 30 years ago, the Soviet Union was considered a very advanced country in terms of ship propulsion ...

So, it can be stated that the UEC "Saturn" from Rybinsk coped and the engines were issued.

This is very excellent information, the main thing is that in Rybinsk they could actually build them not by the piece, but in series. Because these engines are needed not just like air, but were needed yesterday.


Photo: Press Service of the Northern Fleet, mil.ru

Yesterday is when not only two Project 22350 frigates, which are being built now, but also four frigates of the same project, laid down in 2019-2020, were left without power plants. Plus, even in Kaliningrad, three frigates of the 11356r project have been unable to torment them since 2013 for the same reason: the lack of engines.

So it only remains to wish the Rybinsk engine builders real success in mastering the serial production of engines that are so necessary for the fleet.

Like most things they need to get these engines into a ship and run it to make sure it is good... I would think the plan should have been to build two engines to start with and get them into ships as fast as possible and then check to make sure the work as expected before clearing them for serial production.

The other ship they don't have propulsion for that is simply not worth making an engine for because it will be a one off... perhaps they could try an experimental propulsion system... like all electric drive with various experimental electricity generation systems to test and try...

I would think even with no new ships planned in that range that making spare parts and repair kits would be necessary anyway so work on that engine design would still make sense...

what ship do they not have propulsion for?

mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

11356, no?

Hmmn. Is the m55p engine really a copy of a soviet engine with no improvement?

Lurk83 wrote:

mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

11356, no?

Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

mnztr wrote:

Lurk83 wrote:

mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

11356, no?

Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

Maybe but Are they to use the same engine as gorshkov class? I have no idea? If not which engine?

Lurk83 wrote:

mnztr wrote:

Lurk83 wrote:

mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

11356, no?

Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

Maybe but Are they to use the same engine as gorshkov class?

Nope.

You need to spend some time and go through the past pages of both 22350 and 11356 threads, you'll get most of your answers.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.

Never heard of a Type 54B. 54s are frigates, so do you mean Type 52B? If so, you're an idiot as the 52B (&51C) was just a stepping stone design.  Operationally the 22350/22350M will be at least equal to Type 52C/D even if they have a little less displacement, and will have a decided technological edge as current generation Russian SAMs and AShMs are superior than their Chinese counterparts.

The 054B is a frigate under development in China. Production planned for the 2021-2025 ship building program. So no his not an idiot, about that.

mnztr wrote:

Lurk83 wrote:

mnztr wrote:what ship do they not have propulsion for?

11356, no?

Surely they as they ramp up production they will have engines for these?

Manufacturer claims there is an improvement. I woudl find it surprising they did not take the opportunity to make some changes. I would consider it a mod kinda like the NK32 -02. The GE engine used in many western ships is also pretty ancient being based on an old DC-10 engine.

GarryB wrote:Like most things they need to get these engines into a ship and run it to make sure it is good... I would think the plan should have been to build two engines to start with and get them into ships as fast as possible and then check to make sure the work as expected before clearing them for serial production.

The other ship they don't have propulsion for that is simply not worth making an engine for because it will be a one off... perhaps they could try an experimental propulsion system... like all electric drive with various experimental electricity generation systems to test and try...

I would think even with no new ships planned in that range that making spare parts and repair kits would be necessary anyway so work on that engine design would still make sense...

Hmm maybe they can fit the system from the 20386 in there and add an additional genset to power it?

Big_Gazza wrote:

walle83 wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:If they stretch Gorshkov by about 10 meters we could see Gorshkov M reaching 6000 tons in displacement compared to Gorshkov 5400 tons. In any event, it is expected Gorshkov / Gorshkov M is on par with Type 054B in terms of size, displacement, capability and will replace Grigorovitch class the way Type 054B replaces Type 054A which is on par with Grigorovitch class in terms of size, displacement, capability.

Never heard of a Type 54B. 54s are frigates, so do you mean Type 52B? If so, you're an idiot as the 52B (&51C) was just a stepping stone design.  Operationally the 22350/22350M will be at least equal to Type 52C/D even if they have a little less displacement, and will have a decided technological edge as current generation Russian SAMs and AShMs are superior than their Chinese counterparts.

The 054B is a frigate under development in China. Production planned for the 2021-2025 ship building program. So no his not an idiot, about that.

Following up on this, it seems that the so-called "Type 054B" is so far an unconfirmed rumour, and no such program has been actually confirmed.  China being what it is of course, they feel no obligation to broadcast their intentions to their adversaries, so it's likely to be a real project, or at least, one being considered.  Time wil tell.

Well China never confirms anything before its launched basicly.  But everrything points to that a new frigate should soon be in the works.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/what-will-the-chinese-navys-next-frigate-look-like/

Even if they copy the old bog standard turbines and systems the improvements in materials and technology and simply just manufacturing quality should result in a significant improvement in performance and efficiency, but I would think other navies will want gas turbine propulsion systems and they are optimising a family of brand new state of the art technology civilian jet engines that can be scaled to meet different needs in different weight classes for aircraft, ground based power generation systems and naval propulsion... so why not apply that for these ships.

The Talwars used combined gas turbine and gas turbine propulsion.

Originally ships were diesel powered because they were fuel efficient and reliable and their large size and heavy weight was not really a big problem.

Later on gas turbines were used but mainly to add sprinting power for diesel powered ships so you would have a big diesel engine or two and some gas turbine engines as well with the diesels for normal cruise and low speed operations and the diesels and the Gas turbines together for bursts of speed for chasing other ships or chasing down a submarine.

Well the Krivak class were combined gas turbine and gas turbine... if you scale them correctly they can be efficient for cruise and sprint operations... the secret is to get the power levels just right so when cruising the GTs you are running are operating at fuel efficient speeds and not wasting fuel. When needing to sprint all the GTs can be run giving the extra power needed for high speed chases.

Very efficient and reliable gas turbines would be very useful in an electric design because a gas turbine connected to an electric motor is an efficient way of generating electrical power (where the electric motor acts as a dynamo).
This also means there does not need to be huge shafts between the motors and the propellers so you could put a few GT a significant distance apart and could be used as ballast to weight the ship reducing weight and providing extra features...

it also means complex gearboxes and transmissions become redundant too.

What are the Chinese using for engines? The ones they sold the Russians were terrible.

https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_1787014

Photos of the 130mm A-192M naval gun for the Admiral Golovko Project 22350 frigate being transported.

https://ria.ru/20210325/fregat-1602842255.html

MURMANSK, 25 Mar - RIA Novosti. The frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov , which is part of the Northern Fleet's missile ship division, successfully fired its main missile system at a coastal target on Novaya Zemlya , the press service of the fleet reported.
"The rocket fire took place in the morning in the Barents Sea . The target, located on the South Island of the Novaya Zemlya archipelago, was successfully hit by the Onyx cruise missile at a distance of over 300 kilometers from the launch point," the message says.
It is noted that the icebreaker " Ilya Muromets ", the multifunctional logistic support ship "Elbrus" and the sea tugboat "MB-110" of the Northern Fleet carried out the protection of the water area and the provision of firing . The shooting took place at the Barents Sea combat training ground, closed to civilian shipping and aviation.
The frigate "Admiral of the Soviet Union Fleet Gorshkov" sailed into the Barents Sea on Wednesday. "During this exit, the frigate's crew will work out a number of elements of the combat training course and fire missile and artillery weapons," the Navy explained.
In 2020, the frigate "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" conducted a complex of tests of modern hypersonic sea-based weapons in the White Sea, having performed several successful test firing of the "Zircon" hypersonic missile.
The frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov was built at the Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg and entered the Navy in July 2018. Successfully completed the tasks of several exercises and circumnavigation.
Project 22350 frigates are multifunctional warships capable of effectively fighting surface, air and underwater enemies, as well as striking land and coastal targets over a distance of over 1,500 kilometers.
Currently, the Northern Fleet has two such frigates: "Admiral of the Soviet Union Fleet Gorshkov" and "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov". The third frigate, named after the legendary commander of the Northern Fleet during the Great Patriotic War, Admiral Arseny Grigorievich Golovko, is being completed at the Severnaya Verf enterprise in St. Petersburg.

owais.usmani wrote:https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_1787014

Photos of the 130mm A-192M naval gun for the Admiral Golovko Project 22350 frigate being transported.

This is probably the largest caliber naval gun ever mounted on any light frigate class. By comparison, naval guns mounted on US navy Burke destroyers and Tico cruisers are 127 mm (5 inches) and naval guns mounted on Chinese navy Type 052D heavy frigates and Type 055 destroyers are 130 mm.