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    Tu-22M3: News

    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue May 15, 2018 11:59 am

    MOSCOW, May 15. /TASS/. Russia’s upgraded Tupolev Tu-22M3M strategic bomber with a new Kh-32 supersonic cruise missile will join the Russian Aerospace Force’s long-range aviation in October, a source in the domestic defense sector told TASS on Tuesday.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1004329
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 16, 2018 12:55 am

    He stopped like2014 of either he get bore or retired. Or CIA sent eraser...

    If we consider his job was probably to keep everyone aware of the Russian menace at a time when the Russian threat was largely forgotten... by 2014 he was no longer needed... it was clear the Bear had its claws back...

    I would suggest if he got any bribes or financial support to do what he was doing it was coming from the Australian military... of course he lost a lot of value for not really being a cheer leader for the F-35... I am sure he would have preferred an F-111M3 or something...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed May 16, 2018 7:52 pm

    More details: https://rueconomics.ru/vse-novosti
    To be more effective against ships, they better reinstall IRPs &/ make plans to deploy them on foreign bases.
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    Post  Hole Wed May 16, 2018 8:24 pm

    There are rumours that the IFR probe makes a comeback.

    Foreign bases?
    Not neccessary. Aim is to protect Russia. Radius of the plane: 2.000 km + 1.000 km range of the Kh-32. Now take a map and look how far away from Russia ships can be hit.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed May 16, 2018 10:14 pm

    In certain scenarios it's better to have access to them 24/7. To reach launch points for targets in the N/C Atlantic from Russia, they must fly near Scandinavia &/ over the Baltic; in the Med. Sea & Indian Ocean, over the Black/Caspian Sea/Turkey/Iran/Syria/Afghanistan/Pakistan. Some of them won't let them do it w/o a fight. In the FE, the same with Japan, SK, & US bases all over the W. & N. Pacific.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed May 16, 2018 10:18 pm

    Hole wrote:There are rumours that the IFR probe makes a comeback.

    no rumors it is confirmed, check article couple of posts before.
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 16, 2018 11:58 pm

    The Tu-22M3M will have inflight refuelling capability and could probably use that to increase its performance greatly.

    It has a maximum weapon load of 24 tons, so lets guess that Kinzhal is of similar weight to the similarly shaped Iskander... Iskander is 3.8 tons... so carrying four of these as a main payload means 15.2 tons of payload.

    The Tu-22M3 can carry 24 tons of payload with a reduced fuel weight, so that means the Tu-22M3M should be able to carry 24-15.2= 8.8 tons of extra fuel in the internal weapon bay... perhaps in a large tank made to fit.

    To take off with this heavy load the main aircraft fuel tanks will be limited so it wont carry its internal fuel tanks full of fuel so it can take off.

    Once it gets into the air however it should be able to refuel immediately and fill up those internal fuel tanks to greatly improve range performance... if it flys subsonic all the way it should be able to operate to a radius of 5,000km even with just one top up after take off...
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun May 27, 2018 10:26 pm

    Fully loaded

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 12 443145_original
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun May 27, 2018 10:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:so lets guess that Kinzhal is of similar weight to the similarly shaped Iskander.

    Unlikely. Kiznahl is specifically designed for MiG-31K (yes K is special "edition" ). Like  Kh-32 for Tu-22. Please note that practical ceiling for MiG is almost 2x higher then Tu-22 and top seped 1,5 x higher.




    Cyberspec wrote:Fully loaded

    how sweet! i wonder how many Kh-32s are needed to sink neutralize CSG...
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    Post  Isos Mon May 28, 2018 6:26 am

    how sweet! i wonder how many Kh-32s are needed to sink neutralize CSG...

    1 hit on the deck is enough to stop it. Sinking depends where you hit. Some big ships can sink because their crew is not fast to stop a small fire.
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    Post  Hole Mon May 28, 2018 9:17 am

    Or the captain is a idiot and rams a rock.
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    Post  Isos Mon May 28, 2018 9:28 am

    Hole wrote:Or the captain is a idiot and rams a rock.

    With all the accidents that happened lately with their destroyers it wouldn't be a surprise. Btw I don't think its the captain who manoeuvre the ship but the crew.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon May 28, 2018 9:12 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:Or the captain is a idiot and rams a rock.

    With all the accidents that happened lately with their destroyers it wouldn't be a surprise. Btw I don't think its the captain who manoeuvre the ship but the crew.


    respekt respekt respekt


    Guys apologies, I was not clear enough - how large salvo must be fired to ensure negligible probability at least one missile get through? (some will not simply get to target, some might be shoot down by AAD) .
    Any data was estimated / published anywhere?
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    Post  Isos Mon May 28, 2018 9:52 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:Or the captain is a idiot and rams a rock.

    With all the accidents that happened lately with their destroyers it wouldn't be a surprise. Btw I don't think its the captain who manoeuvre the ship but the crew.


    respekt respekt respekt


    Guys apologies, I was not clear enough - how large salvo must be fired to ensure  negligible probability at least one missile get through? (some will not simply get to target, some might be shoot down by AAD) .
    Any data was estimated / published anywhere?

    Soviet doctrine is to use naval, sub and air missiles in big salvos to destroy the carrier group. While Tu-22 launch kh-22 Oscars would launch granits and 650mm torpedos, kirovs and slavas would launch their missiles too, tactical aviation and su-27 would if possible also target the formation with smaller missiles, the hundreds of Osa boatd would have been also send to launch their missile under the protection of bigger destroyers like Sovs ...

    Those things are highly classified I think. It also depends of what is in the carrier group, how many destroyers and cruisers are there.

    On french wikipedia for p-700 granit they say they need 20 to 24 missiles to go through carrier group defences at low level flight. Idk if it's reliable but they quote a magazin that I have never seen.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Mon May 28, 2018 10:35 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Soviet doctrine is to use naval, sub and air missiles in big salvos to destroy the carrier group. While Tu-22 launch kh-22 Oscars would launch granits and 650mm torpedos, kirovs and slavas would launch their missiles too, tactical aviation and su-27 would if possible also target the formation with smaller missiles, the hundreds of Osa boatd would have been also send to launch their missile under the protection of bigger destroyers like Sovs ...

    Those things are highly classified I think. It also depends of what is in the carrier group, how many destroyers and cruisers are there.

    On french wikipedia for p-700 granit they say they need 20 to 24 missiles to go through carrier group defences at low level flight. Idk if it's reliable but they quote a magazin that I have never seen.

    Considering that the Onyx is a smaller , harder to hit target compared to the granit, it takes only three Russian corvette to kill a carrier group?

    Not a surprise to see the whole ukrainan thingy from the US : )
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon May 28, 2018 11:08 pm

    Isos wrote: On french wikipedia for p-700 granit they say they need 20 to 24 missiles to go through carrier group defences at low level flight. Idk if it's reliable but they quote a magazin that I have never seen.

    Well I dont think that 24 Granits in Anteys are pure coincidence... I believe that unlikely torpedoes would be a primary weapons to attack CVS. Perhaps to finish off what is still afloat/ Of course only in case there is no nuked warheads.

    The reason I asked for Kh-32 is my curiosity how many Tu-22s you need to send to accomplish the mission...




    Singular_Transform wrote: Considering that the Onyx is a smaller , harder to hit target compared to the granit, it takes only three Russian corvette to kill a carrier group?

    If we are talking about conventional warheads then I am not sure. P-700 has 750kg warhead /7 tons weight vs P-800's 250/ 3 tons.
    1 hit in CVN not necessarily sinks her. Works if any of escorts with long range missiles are left afloat.



    Singular_Transform wrote: Not a surprise to see the whole ukrainan thingy from the US : )

    the question remains: peremoga or zdrada ? Suspect Suspect Suspect
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    Post  Hole Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 am

    In the 60´s the Navy thought they would need some 100 missile carriers with 200 - 250 missiles to destroy a CBG.
    In the 70´s and 80s this was down to around 50 aircraft and 100 - 150 missiles do to higher speed, better ECM and the capability to launch missiles from low height.
    Today the Kh-32 and the Kinzhal are much faster, so it could be down to a flight and their missiles.

    Same is for the ships/subs and their missiles. The P-350 could only be launched from the surface, was flying high and had to be guided for a part it its flight path. The P-700 can be launched submerged and has its own guiding system and it flies very low. The P-800 is faster, the P-1000 has much greater range. And now the Zircon (P-???) is coming up.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue May 29, 2018 6:48 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    If we are talking about conventional warheads then I am not sure. P-700 has 750kg warhead /7 tons weight vs P-800's 250/ 3 tons.
    1 hit in CVN not necessarily sinks her. Works if any of escorts with long range missiles are left afloat.

    I don't think that the 24 missile required means one missile get through.

    Say from 24 granit six get thought, three fooled by decoy/jammers, and three hit the carrier and disable the engine/ sink it.

    Say.


    So, the onyx smaller, so there is less chance for interception, it increase by say one the number of missiles hitting the ship.

    The damage is not linear, so 3 *250 doesn't do third of the damage of 3*750 ( it will half or maybe bit more).

    And anyway, slightly more missile will impact the carrier.

    So , at the end of the day the carrier will have disabled engines OR not capable to continue its mission.


    And the three corvette can go back to the port for refill, and if the carrier is still limping around when they back then it will never see again its homeport.

    And again, it takes three corvette, or 24 fighter jet, 8 Tu-22M3, 12 bastion,or a third Oscar submarine.

    And of course if they mix only one zyrcon with seven onyx then the mix will be even more deadly.



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    Post  Isos Tue May 29, 2018 6:55 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    If we are talking about conventional warheads then I am not sure. P-700 has 750kg warhead /7 tons weight  vs  P-800's  250/ 3 tons.
    1 hit in CVN not necessarily sinks her. Works if any of escorts with long range missiles are left afloat.

    I don't think that the 24 missile required means one missile get through.

    Say from 24 granit six get thought, three fooled by decoy/jammers, and three hit the carrier and disable the engine/ sink it.

    Say.


    So, the onyx smaller, so there is less chance for interception, it increase by say one the number of missiles hitting the ship.

    The damage is not linear, so 3 *250 doesn't do third of the damage of 3*750 ( it will  half or maybe bit more).

    And anyway, slightly more missile will impact the carrier.

    So , at the end of the day the carrier will have disabled engines OR not capable to continue its mission.


    And the three corvette can go back to the port for refill, and if the carrier is still limping around when they back then it will never see again its homeport.

    And again, it takes three corvette, or 24 fighter jet, 8 Tu-22M3, 12 bastion,or a third Oscar submarine.

    And of course if they mix only one zyrcon with seven onyx then the mix will be even more deadly.




    Well, defences are getting better too. The advantage of oniks is that it is faster and you can put more of them instead of 1 big p-700. So even if the defences can today intercept for exemple randomly lets say 40 sea skiming missiles, an Oscar will be able to carry 72 oniks instead of 24 granit. The advantage goes to the Oniks.

    But that's not true for tu-22M and airborn oniks instead of kh-22 because they are still limited by the size of the aircraft. That's why tgey developed kh-32 IMO instead of implementing oniks or kalibr as main antiship weapon.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue May 29, 2018 9:09 pm

    Isos wrote:

    But that's not true for tu-22M and airborn oniks instead of kh-22 because they are still limited by the size of the aircraft. That's why tgey developed kh-32 IMO instead of implementing oniks or kalibr as main antiship weapon.

    Not really, Kh-32 has range 1000km and speed 5000km/h where last part it is just diving form like 40km it is much harder to intercept. Notto mention size of Kh-32 warhead: (KH-22 960kg) . Interesting is that Russian wiki says:

    probability of target destruction - 0,8 - 0,82 ...





    Singular_Transform wrote:[
    So, the onyx smaller, so there is less chance for interception, it increase by say one the number of missiles hitting the ship.



    correct, I meant one Onix might be too little to sink CVN.



    So , at the end of the day the carrier will have disabled engines OR not capable to continue its mission.

    in most cases yes, but for 100,000k if you dont hit ammo or fighter deck perhaps it might accept damage.



    And the three corvette can go back to the port for refill, and if the carrier is still limping around when they back then it will never see again its homeport.


    and those 2 destroyers and 2 cruisers will just stay to let corvettes reload? Subs too especially that 22800 have no anti sub capabilities...

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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue May 29, 2018 9:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    in most cases yes, but for 100,000k if you dont hit ammo or fighter deck perhaps it might accept damage.



    And the three corvette can go back to the port for refill, and if the carrier is still limping around when they back then it will never see again its homeport.


    and those 2 destroyers and 2  cruisers will just stay to let corvettes reload? Subs too especially that 22800 have no anti sub capabilities...


    The missiles can be launched away from the carrier group, way away from any submarine /destroyer escort.

    And the destroyers can't chase the corvettes , because they will leave the carrier unprotected. And the sub can't leave it too far as well.

    Generally, a 9 gram bullet can kill a 10000 times bigger human.

    It is hard to imagine, but the onyx is so fast ( from ballistic trajectory ) that the detonation will go just a bit backwards after the explosion of the warhead . Practically all blast and fragments are pushed deeply into the ship after the impact/detonation .And the Kh-22/32 faster .

    Maybe it is more precise to say the main reason of the explosive on those missiles is to increase the area of impact, and avoid the danger of simply fluing throught the ship , leaving only a small hole after the impact.
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    Post  Isos Tue May 29, 2018 10:06 pm

    Not really, Kh-32 has range 1000km and speed 5000km/h where last part it is just diving form like 40km it is much harder to intercept. Notto mention size of Kh-32 warhead: (KH-22 960kg)

    I meant they keep going with a big missile by making it much better than kh-22. If they chosed the oniks they could carry maybe 5 or 6 max going from 3 big and powerfull missiles to 6 smaller ones is not as much impressive as going from 24 to 72 on a sub. So they chosed to improve the kh-22 into kh-32 making it more deadly. They chosed quality over quantity.

    A mach 5 missile flying at 40 km is really hard to intercept or detect. Most radar have a limit of about 30km in altitude, 20km for most missiles. AEGIS has to be in ABM mode to detect it which makes it vulnerable to sea skeaming missiles that's why russian will launch salvos of different missiles on them. They also need an antiship BM to be even more dangerous like some iskander on mig-41.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue May 29, 2018 11:08 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:

    The missiles can be launched away from the carrier group, way away from any submarine /destroyer escort.
    And the destroyers can't chase the corvettes , because they will leave the carrier unprotected. And the sub can't leave it too far as well.


    Other way around I am afraid. Likely they will chase and fighters/drones too. Why to shoot missiles is you can down carrier (corvette)? That's  why escort is for. It will be AWACS/sat info too.


    Generally, a 9 gram  bullet can kill a 10000 times bigger human.
    only if hits in viral organ...


    It is hard to imagine, but the onyx is so fast ( from ballistic trajectory ) that the detonation will go just a bit  backwards after the explosion of the warhead . Practically all blast and fragments are pushed deeply into the ship after the impact/detonation .And the Kh-22/32 faster .

    Hmm but 2,6 Ma this is way below 10Ma (3km/s) or higher where equivalent of mass has same energy as any chemical explosive.












    Isos wrote:

    I meant they keep going with a big missile by making it much better than kh-22. If they chosed the oniks they could carry maybe 5 or 6 max going from 3 big and powerfull missiles to 6 smaller ones is not as much impressive as going from 24 to 72 on a sub.


    no need for Onyx in this.There are GZUR (hypersonic) and Kh-50 (stealth subsonic) are designed to fit into Tu-22 bomb bay. 6 on revolver. Tu-160 2x6 :-)
    Both with 1, 500km range.



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    Post  Hole Wed May 30, 2018 8:51 am

    The Kh-22 penetrates the ship up to 12m before exploding. I´m sure the Kh-32 uses the same method.

    The main difference is that the Kh-22 needed a look at the target as long as it was on the aircraft. The Kh-32 needs only some coordinates, than it climbes to 44 km (Kh-22: 23km), turns on its own radar and heads to the target.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed May 30, 2018 9:55 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:


    Generally, a 9 gram  bullet can kill a 10000 times bigger human.
    only if hits in viral organ...


    It is hard to imagine, but the onyx is so fast ( from ballistic trajectory ) that the detonation will go just a bit  backwards after the explosion of the warhead . Practically all blast and fragments are pushed deeply into the ship after the impact/detonation .And the Kh-22/32 faster .

    Hmm but 2,6 Ma this is way below 10Ma (3km/s) or higher where equivalent of mass has same energy as any chemical explosive.


    https://www.un.org/disarmament/un-saferguard/kingery-bulmash/

    The speed is true for the surface of the explosive at the moment of detonation.
    But as the hot gases expand the surface slow down and cool .

    If an onyx from 24km height impact the ship with 1 km/sec,and the detonation of the warhead happens at 7 meter deep then the blast never reach the hole punched by the missile on the surface of the ship.

    All kinetic energy and explosive energy will be absorbed by the ship internal structures, and the kinetic energy is 50% of the full energy content.
    Additionally, the leftover fuel is explode as well.

    If the warhead has a 120 kg casing then it will proper the pieces of it by 3 km/sec forward deeply into the ship, penetrating all reinforced structure.


    The blast wave at 24ms has 20 meters radius, at that moment the centre of it is 30 meters deep in the ship, and the surface pressure is still 1 bar, I think we can consider it as the lower pressure limit of the bulkheads in the carrier.

    If we consider a 1 bar as over-pressure resistance for the bulkheads then the destroyed conical area has 40 meter diameter perpendicular to the penetration vector, and 60 meters long .

    So , one p-800 if impact the ship empty, without any remaining fuel will destoy everything in the ship in 56000 cubic meter area that is not blast resistant for 1 bar overpressure.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure

    Considering that by the wiki 0.69 bar is enough to destroy a reinforced concrete structure, and torn limbs off from people, the 1 bar looks enough to take care of the carrier.

    The carrier internal volume under the hangar deck could be around 200 000 cubic meter , means one onyx can destroy quarter of that area. At least.

    Four onyx can destroy all internal structure in the engineering / machining decks in the carrier, and penetrate/ignite all ammo magazine,and create enough hole to sink it.

    One p800 will kill a destroyer .

    The best is if the missile impact the ship say 10-20 degree from the deck then the blast wave will be reflected back from the water under the ship, and the same if the onyx hit the ship 5 meters above the waterline, with more than 7 degree angle.


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