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    Tu-22M3: News

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:07 pm

    About AB engine color.

    https://theaviationist.com/2019/12/26/tu-22m3-backfire-engines-transition-from-idle-to-full-reheat-captured-in-stunning-detail/

    [...]Second, the video shows with unprecedented detail the afterburner ignition sequence and the subsequent generation of the typical blue plume of many Russian engines (from 07:00 mark). In fact, as opposed to the orange plume you can observe on Western afterburners, Russian ones appear to be blue in color meaning that all the injected fuel is burnt before exiting the nozzle (the result of the engine design and the way fuel is dumped into the center of the cylinder): there is a more complete combustion and the reaction creates enough energy to excite and ionize gas molecules in the flame, leading to a blue flame appearance. In other words the blue flame is produced by molecular radicals, especially CH and C2, which emit most of their light in the blue region of the visible spectrum. The orange color is instead caused by fuel not completely burned out before exiting the nozzle, thus creating soot (unburnt carbon particles) that glows in the heat of the flame giving the orange color.[...]
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    Post  mnztr on Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:01 am

    Isos wrote:About AB engine color.

    https://theaviationist.com/2019/12/26/tu-22m3-backfire-engines-transition-from-idle-to-full-reheat-captured-in-stunning-detail/

    [...]Second, the video shows with unprecedented detail the afterburner ignition sequence and the subsequent generation of the typical blue plume of many Russian engines (from 07:00 mark). In fact, as opposed to the orange plume you can observe on Western afterburners, Russian ones appear to be blue in color meaning that all the injected fuel is burnt before exiting the nozzle (the result of the engine design and the way fuel is dumped into the center of the cylinder): there is a more complete combustion and the reaction creates enough energy to excite and ionize gas molecules in the flame, leading to a blue flame appearance. In other words the blue flame is produced by molecular radicals, especially CH and C2, which emit most of their light in the blue region of the visible spectrum. The orange color is instead caused by fuel not completely burned out before exiting the nozzle, thus creating soot (unburnt carbon particles) that glows in the heat of the flame giving the orange color.[...]

    I have read that the Russians use an additive to the fuel to increase the amout of nitrogen in the exhaust, I think this is to protect the hot section of the turbine perhaps allowing then to run higher temps? ..
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:17 am

    Hello. But is it possible that the white exhaust in the AB mode is because of water injection into engines? Thanks.

    Interesting idea, but I don't think so... water injection tends to generate thick black smoke... like the B-52 on take off...

    The only Soviet/Russian aircraft that uses material injected into the engines is on the MiG-25 that uses alcohol injected into the intakes for cooling purposes and to increase thrust at high altitude...

    In very low light or night videos you can see the entire cone of the AB on both the Backfire and Blackjack... they are certainly a sight for sore eyes...
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    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:12 pm


    - At the end of last August, Russian Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov very optimistically told Interfax that the first M3M is undergoing factory flight tests, the second will join it by the end of the year, and in the third quarter of 2020 they will be submitted for state joint tests. According to him, a contract is being prepared for the modernization of the Tu-22M3 to Tu-22M3M standard.

    = In November 2019, information (however, not confirmed by anyone) thundered in the media that the military began sending stored Tu-22M3s to Kazan. A special relish to the news on the “triples” is given by the fact that they must carry hypersonic “Daggers” and “Zircons”.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3909470.html
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:46 pm



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    Post  Hole on Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:39 pm

    No Kh-32? cry
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:23 pm

    Hole wrote:No Kh-32? cry
    It's replacement (Kh-47m2) is coming! thumbsup
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    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:38 pm

    Second upgraded Tupolev-22M3M makes first flight

    The plane took off from and landed at the airdrome of the Kazan aircraft-building plant

    MOSCOW, March 20. /TASS/. A second overhauled and fundamentally upgraded strategic bomber Tupolev-22M3M has performed its first flight, a source in the defense-industrial complex has told TASS.

    The press service of the public joint stock company Tupolev (an affiliate of the united aircraft-building corporation governed by the state corporation Rostec) has confirmed the flight, adding that the purpose was to estimate the takeoff and landing parameters of the plane and test the IT and control system.

    The press service said the second Tupolev-22M3M will begin a series of test flights in the near future.

    The first experimental Tupolev-22M3M took off on December 28, 2018. Another source in the defense-industrial complex specified that the first experimental bomber had made 18 successful flights by the end of October 2019.
    Tupolev-22M3M

    The newest upgraded missile-carrying bomber Tupolev-22M3M performed its first flight on December 28, 2018. The flight at an altitude of 1,500 meters lasted 37 minutes.

    According to the Public Joint Stock Company Tupolev, the plane has an expanded combat potential. A former commander of Russia’s Aerospace Force, Viktor Bondarev, who currently leads the Federation Council’s defense and security committee, has said the upgraded bomber is capable of carrying cruise missiles X-32 and hypersonic missiles.

    https://tass.com/defense/1133057
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:23 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Hole wrote:No Kh-32? cry
    It's replacement (Kh-47m2) is coming! thumbsup

    Wiki says 4 missiles can be carried. Lists range on TU-22 at 3000KM and on MIG-31 at 2000KM is that airplane range + 1000 for missile?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:26 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Hole wrote:No Kh-32? cry
    It's replacement (Kh-47m2) is coming! thumbsup

    Wiki says 4 missiles can be carried. Lists range on TU-22 at 3000KM and on MIG-31 at 2000KM is that airplane range + 1000 for missile?

    Probably has more to do with the heavier and denser fuel utilized. I don't think it's really been dissected but the platform (with a greater payload capacity) used makes a difference, and it's the same reason why Kornet-M on a vehicle has greater range than the man portable version.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:01 pm

    So there will be a different variant for TU-22, I guess that makes sense, the TU has a much higher payload then MIG-31, and less speed/atitude capability. So they will need a larger booster to get it into the hypersonic envelope anyway so may as well tack on another 1000km range...
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    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:14 pm

    I guess it's the carrier’s combat radius plus the missile’s range .
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:12 am

    Range for Kinzhal is supposed to be 2,000km, but I suspect that is for launch at mach 2.4 and at altitudes of 16-18km from a MiG-31.

    The Tu-22M3 would not be able to fly that high nor that fast so the flight range of Kinzhal might be 1,500km or even 1,000km when launched from a Backfire.

    The main difference however is that the Tu-22M3 could carry four Kinzhals at one time... it has two normal wing pylons in the wing roots, and also can carry payloads under the main engine air intakes where it often carries multiple ejector racks for unguided bombs.

    The Tu-22M3 has a normal max load of three Kh-32 missiles... one under each wing pylon and one semi recessed in the main bomb bay.

    It can be loaded with Kh-15 rocket powered missiles where it can carry one under each wing pylon and one under each air intake for a total of four missiles externally and another 6 missiles in the internal rotary launcher for a total of 10 missiles but the Kh-15 is understood to not be in service as it is a nuke only weapon.

    The Kinzhal should be able to be carried externally on the four weapon points.

    In the book Russias Arms, which is like a sales catalog, it mentions the Tu-22M3 for export and with an option for up to 10 missiles internally and externally... presumably a conventionally armed Kh-15 perhaps?
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:52 am

    Number two, we have lift off.

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    Post  mnztr on Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:16 pm

    Imagine all the attack options the TU-22 has, a flight of TU (maybe 3) or TU-95s launches a large number of Kaliber anti-ship missiles (the ones with super sonic sprint). As they approach the CBG they are picked up by AWACs and planes are launched to start intercept the ships position and prepare to act as second ring defence. As all this is going on, 1000 KM away a flight of TU-22s is releasing 8 Kinzhal missiles ... which will completely alter the defensive posture, and would be approach from a different direction....just as the group is focusing on these, another 8 appear from yet another direction. In all this panic a Yassen class is positioning for a strike with Zircon and Kaliber missiles...impossible to get out of this without a major loss IMHO. And that is without using a single tactical nuke. This kind of attack will require 2 TU-95s, 4 TU-22-s a few tankers and 1 sub... throw in a few Mig-31s as a backup attack...
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:10 am

    Even more fun... Yasen class SSNs 100km away from the carrier group start the attack with 650mm torpedos launched before the attack starts so when the missiles start arriving the torpedos arrive too... you can have a lot of fun when coordinating an attack...

    And as the F-35 gets into service on board US carriers the ability to defend becomes shorter ranged and slower than ever before...
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    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:01 pm

    Funny thing would be that Russia develops the same type of drones as US which imitates aircraft and design to make air defences spend their missiles on fake targets.

    Launch them towards the battle group and make them immitate a group of tu-22 in attack phase. The f-18/35 and aegis ships will spend all their loads of missiles at fake targets. They will run out of missile pretty fast.

    12 drones per il-76 with 2000km range. A group of 30 il-76. And send them in the same time as the real tu-22.

    Pretty easy to do. Take a kalibr or kh-59 missile. Replace all electronics/warhead with fuel and add just a stupid Glonass receiver so that it goes in the direction of the battle group. And add a rcs enhencer and let it fly at 7km altitude.
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    Post  Hole on Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:37 pm

    Russia did this already back in the 70´s. A K-10 or KSR-5 was equipped with jammers instead of a warhead and simulated the flight characteristics of Tu-22M2´s.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:22 am

    A few corner reflectors and they might think it is an An-124... a nice juicy target.

    As a sidebar... I have often wondered if it would be possible to fit so many corner reflectors to a tiny object that the RCS is thousands of square metres... an incoming missile with a radio proximity fuse would explode too far from the tiny actual object so it would actually be hard to shoot down with radar guided missiles... or maybe multiple towed decoys with corner reflectors that can be rotated 180 degrees on a 1000m long towing tether and the incoming SAM blows past the towing missile the corner reflector is flipped and a chaff bundle released... it is the sort of experimenting I think I would enjoy working on... Smile
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:47 am

    GarryB wrote:Even more fun... Yasen class SSNs 100km away from the carrier group start the attack with 650mm torpedos launched before the attack starts so when the missiles start arriving the torpedos arrive too... you can have a lot of fun when coordinating an attack...

    And as the F-35 gets into service on board US carriers the ability to defend becomes shorter ranged and slower than ever before...

    Can a torpedo travel that far? I am not sure (other then the doomsday one) that any torpedos today can go more the 50 miles.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:18 am

    Can a torpedo travel that far? I am not sure (other then the doomsday one) that any torpedos today can go more the 50 miles.

    Soviet 650mm torpedoes with 70s fuel and engine technologies had that range.

    Now even 533mm get ranges close to that. A modern 650mm torpedo could either have an increased speed with 100km range or reduce speed and have 150km range.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:29 am

    GarryB wrote:A few corner reflectors and they might think it is an An-124... a nice juicy target.

    As a sidebar... I have often wondered if it would be possible to fit so many corner reflectors to a tiny object that the RCS is thousands of square metres... an incoming missile with a radio proximity fuse would explode too far from the tiny actual object so it would actually be hard to shoot down with radar guided missiles... or maybe multiple towed decoys with corner reflectors that can be rotated 180 degrees on a 1000m long towing tether and the incoming SAM blows past the towing missile the corner reflector is flipped and a chaff bundle released... it is the sort of experimenting I think I would enjoy working on... Smile

    I alwayd though it is a better idea than stealth. Launching corning relector in every direction creates thousands of targets. Most radar are limited to 20 or 30 tracking targets. The radar operator would need some seconds to filter the right target among all that.

    If it is a supersonic antiship missile it will give it a good amount of safe time during its attack, the ship will have only the terminal attack to stop it when it sees it on thermals.

    If it is a fighter, when attack by Active radar missiles, if it release the reflector on time before the missile turns its radar on, it will create 20 or so targets and the missile will lock on one of the 130m2 rcs reflector because they will be hidding the fighter, the rdar would receive mostly big echos of the reflectors.

    If it is a SARH missiles it's the same, the reflector will reflect much more signal than the fighter just like what happened with israeli f-16 and syrian S-200.

    The reflectors can be release by slow 9mm guns mounted around the aircraft. So that when it releases them they have the same speed as the fighter. The fighter would turn in every direction and releases them so that he is hidden by the reflectors.
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:33 pm

    What is being described is effectively active chaff.

    Rather than firing it out behind the aircraft to put incoming IR missiles off in defence mode, this would be loading the aircraft's forward facing cannon or rocket pods/cluster warhead missiles with similar rounds in offense mode. Perfect load out for a many hardpoint Su-25/30/34 or F-15E but makes a mockery of 'stealth' attack aircraft.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:17 am

    Soviet transport aircraft like the Il-76 and bombers like the Tu-16 and Tu-95 had 23mm self defence guns that could fire flare and chaff dipoles.

    The first generation IR guided missiles just homed in on the hottest thing they could see so pilots were trained not to launch them from a direction where the enemy target could manouver to get between the missile and the sun, but later designs were adapted to guide towards a less intense heat source, so flares of different intensity were used. By the late 70s and early 80s IR guided missiles were designed to attack patterns of heat of different intensities, and could also home in on targets from the front where the hot engine exhausts were not even visible, so flares were further adapted to a range of different intensities and were generally launched in bunches so they formed a pattern of hotspots...

    The 23mm cannon used on Soviet aircraft to defend bombers and transport planes used the 23x115mm cannon rounds rather than the much higher velocity 23x152mm rounds the ZU-23 and ZSU-23-4 fired (which was also related to the high velocity anti armour 23mm guns of the Il-2 from WWII fame).

    The 23 x 115mm rounds had the same heavy projectile of the anti aircraft 23x152mm but had much less propellent and much lower velocity and lower recoil.

    The advantage was that they were much smaller so you could carry a lot more, but also with greatly reduced recoil you could fire them at enormous cyclic rates... effectively launching bursts like shotgun blasts rather than strings of rounds.

    In terms of hitting fast moving targets muzzle velocity is not important... but a large number of projectiles arriving together means any flight manouver made between when the burst was fired and rounds start impacting wont take the target outside the impact area so it will still get hit.

    For bombers and transports however they also made flare and chaff rounds but the high rate of fire was again very useful because it allowed a rapid cloud of flares and chaff to be formed behind or beside the aircraft with very short bursts... the twin barrel 23mm guns on the Il-76 for instance fired about 3,500rpm each, so with the twin mounted rear gun turret it could spew out about 7,000 rounds per minute... which means good cloud of 30-50 chaff dipoles and flares could be spat out in half a second burst...

    Imagine a 23mm cannon shell with a plastic aerodynamic nose cone and a forward facing corner reflector with a RCS of 2-3m... an incoming AMRAAM turns on its own radar to find the target to suddenly detect a mass of 30 targets with a 2-3m RCS... which one does it choose?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:25 am

    23mm canon is still big. I rather have a smarter system that detects the missile with RWR and MAWS and classify it (if radar emmissions the radar homing missile, if MAWS detect but no radar signal then IR missile).

    Then use smart decoys. Instead of launching flares and chaffs behind the aircraft, launch them btw your aircraft and the incoming missile so that they really mask your aircraft.

    To do so put many 9mm guns around your aircraft so that they fire reflectors with many different rcs at any direction. Modern radar like you say differentiate big and small rcs so you need to send many fake targets in the air to keep the processing too long so that it misses the real target.

    But also keep the chaffs as they are really good at creating huge radar echos (but alone they create it just begind the aircraft and modern missile can concentrate their radar in front of that cloud to find the target).

    That can be even used inside the ECM pod on Sukhois.

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