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    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:02 am

    Could ships of this size be made to carry naval variants of the S-400 and S-500 systems? Having a greater dispersion of naval air defence could be advantageous for use in defending the Russian mainland.

    Well the current British Daring air defence destroyer... their version of an American AEGIS cruiser could be used as a model... a 130mm gun at the front so you know it is a warship, plus perhaps two quad launchers for Uran as the token anti ship capability and then the UKSK replaced with Redut and extra Redut launch tubes as well.

    Redut is for 9M100, 9M96 (both models), and S-400 they have said though for each 250km and 400km range S-400 you would be able to fit four 9M96 missiles or 16 9M100 missiles so obviously every really big missile they carry will reduce the total number of missiles carried by a huge margin.

    Add some TOR missiles in deck launchers and of course a couple of Pantsir systems and you have a ship optimised for air defence only.

    The new UKSK launchers, the UKSK-M expand the range of missiles and equipment you can load into the tubes to include SAMs like 9M96 and S-400, as well as Shtil/Naval BUK....

    But it is always limited as to what you can fit on a Corvette or Frigate... which is why countries go for bigger ships too when they can.

    A single corvette wont be amazing on its own but when you add it to a group of other ships... the same size or bigger then their performance and capabilities increase significantly. The extra radars and sensors and missiles and guns provide depth and reach.


    If you want a picket arsenal air defence ship I would go for modifying one of the older ships... a Slava class or a Udaloy class ship.

    If you think about the original electronics on those boats... they had computers the size of large rooms that have the processing power of a modern cell phone... a huge amount of internal volume would be freed up just by ripping out the old stuff and putting in new stuff that might fill 1% of the volume and yet be thousands of times more powerful and capable, and much of the new stuff is modular and automated so the crew size could be reduced significantly too.

    After you reduce the crew and make all that space with the new electronics you should then have an enormous amount of space when you take the old weapons out and put the new weapon modules in... meaning instead of x number of SAMs you could carry before, you should be able to carry 10x SAMs now or more, and the new launchers that can carry attack missiles can also carry SAMs along with dedicated SAM launchers to fit in small nooks and crannies where nothing else would fit... like a deck mounted naval TOR launcher, or ten.

    Being a much bigger ship you could fit bigger radar arrays and sensors etc etc.

    It makes more sense to perfect a few Corvette types optimised for the different fleets they have and then just make them in long series.... making one off single unique ships is slow and frustrating... serial production is much more profitable and quicker because you have already solved most of the problems.
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    Post  hoom Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:53 am

    British Daring air defence destroyer... their version of an American AEGIS cruiser could be used as a model
    Seems like a pretty bad model Suspect
    Type 45 has probably the worst SAMs:displacement ratio of anything recent.
    Its about 3.5* (maybe 4* depending on which numbers for Type 45) the displacement of a 20380 but only carries 48* VLS for 30/120km ranged SAMs.
    They did put a lot of emphasis on a powerful double-faced AESA radar up very high (gives long radar horizon) & complex firecontrol system.

    Singapore managed to get 32* Aster cells in the much smaller (~1/2 the displacement of Type 45) Formidable class frigates but they had to really cut down the superstructure/mast & only have a single-face PESA which has questionable capability (eg was almost immediately supplemented with a single standalone firecontrol radar for terminal guidance which had been intended to be done by the Heracles).

    The Alvaro de Bazan class are similar size (maybe 2/3 depending on numbers) to Type 45 with same 48* cell count but with Mk41 VLS they get to quad-pack the ESSMs so get to carry a lot more missiles.


    They could probably replace the 8-cell UKSK in the bow of 20385 with 2* 8-cell Redut for 32* cells total without too much rework but wouldn't improve the radar/firecontrol (which I suspect isn't really able to properly utilise the 120km 9M96 version).

    To step up to S-3/400 size missiles you're going to dramatically reduce the cell-count because they're way bigger than 9M96
    This pic famously shows 4* 9M96 taking the same space as a single S-400 missile canister
    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 9 5P85SE-9M96E2-Quad-Launcher-MAKS-MiroslavGyurosi-1S
    The big mystery there is Redut cells look like they should be big enough to quad-pack 9M96 or load single S-300 size missiles, yet as far as has been publicly stated/shown/hinted they are actually only single 9M96 each.

    Then to go up to S-500 size missiles this is S-300V
    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 9 Oboronexpo2014part2-27
    As far as I understand the four canisters on the left are the size of the previous pic S-400 canister, the bigger canisters on the right should be the same size as S-500 canisters.

    WAY bigger again, even a Kirov class wouldn't be able to carry a large number of those without significantly reducing other capabilities.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:37 pm

    The idea wold be to have batteries comprising of multiple ships in order to increase survivability against saturation attacks, it would not matter if a ship only carried 10 S-500 missiles and only a small radar.
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    Post  Broski Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:48 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]
    The new UKSK launchers, the UKSK-M expand the range of missiles and equipment you can load into the tubes to include SAMs like 9M96 and S-400, as well as Shtil/Naval BUK....
    One thing I've always wondered about the UKSK-M is if they'll be able to stack smaller missiles like 9M100 ontop of each other or not? Also, will Redut be unified with the UKSK-M?
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:47 am

    Broski wrote:
    One thing I've always wondered about the UKSK-M is if they'll be able to stack smaller missiles like 9M100 ontop of each other or not?


    I would imagine that preventing the missiles from damaging each other during launch wold be difficult.

    There would likely also be issues with trying to launch missiles from different depths in a tube, you could solve this by having several tubes and ejecting the empty ones while hoisting the new ones up to take the place of the ejected tube.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:17 am


    They could probably replace the 8-cell UKSK in the bow of 20385 with 2* 8-cell Redut for 32* cells total without too much rework but wouldn't improve the radar/firecontrol (which I suspect isn't really able to properly utilise the 120km 9M96 version).

    Well if they replace the UKSK with UKSK-M they could load 4 9M96 missiles in each of the 8 tubes which gives you 32 extra 60km/150km range missiles but the capability of using Shtils as well as the wide range of land attack, anti ship and anti sub missiles the UKSK can carry.

    To step up to S-3/400 size missiles you're going to dramatically reduce the cell-count because they're way bigger than 9M96

    I would presume that one S-400 missile... the 250km and the 400km range models would fit one missile to each UKSK-M launch tube as that same tube can hold 4 9M96 missiles, so you could sacrifice some numbers for range... perhaps a single 400km range missile and two 250km range missiles, plus 4 tubes with 150km and 60km range 9M96s (in packs of four) and the remaining single tube could have 16 9M100 self defence SAMs of 15km range with IIR lock on after launch seekers.

    That means for a single 8 tube launcher you could have 1 x 400km, 2 x 250km, say 4 x 150km and 8 x 60km range and 16 x 15km range SAMs... which would be a total of 31... not bad... if there is no risk of long range targets you can boost numbers in the other range classes, or add an anti sub or anti ship or land attack missile.

    The big mystery there is Redut cells look like they should be big enough to quad-pack 9M96 or load single S-300 size missiles, yet as far as has been publicly stated/shown/hinted they are actually only single 9M96 each.

    Something I have pondered here myself... the amount of padding around the missiles seems to be rather excessive... especially when you look at the missiles on the land based S-400 and S-350 systems with their slim narrow cannisters.

    It has been mentioned that the Redut launch system is compatible with 250km and 400km missiles, which sound like the full calibre S-400 missiles to me.

    On a side note I think it is odd that they have not developed aircraft carried and launched versions of 9M96... AFAIK the 9M100 is going to be used as a self defence short range missile for aircraft including bombers that are carried inside weapon bays where its lock on after launch capability would be useful.

    The long slim design of the 9M96 missiles would be ideal for internal weapons bays too and being ARH and with a flight range of 60km and 150km from a ground launch, their performance from an aircraft at speed and altitude should double or triple those ranges against some targets...

    As far as I understand the four canisters on the left are the size of the previous pic S-400 canister, the bigger canisters on the right should be the same size as S-500 canisters.

    The problem of them being Army and Air Force weapons means most of the time the S-300P and S-300V are rarely shown side by side and never operate side by side in exercises...

    Not sure there will be a naval version of S-300V except a S-500 for use against ballistic threats... it might have its own large launcher for use on cruisers and CVNs... perhaps it might also carry enlarged two stage Iskander type manouvering missiles of the future with scramjet motors and mach 15 speeds and ranges of 2,000km to 4,000km... Twisted Evil

    The idea wold be to have batteries comprising of multiple ships in order to increase survivability against saturation attacks, it would not matter if a ship only carried 10 S-500 missiles and only a small radar.

    The primary value of a bigger ship is the ability to not just carry an array of weapons to defend itself... but also enough missiles to defend ships it operates... the purpose of a cruiser is to create an air defence shell or umbrella for smaller ships to operate under.

    If they can layer their missiles it would be even better because the UKSK-M is designed for missiles up to 10 metres long so a short missile like 9M100 you could fit 16 missiles in the width of the tube but you could probably also fit 2 or three layers in the depth... so 32-48 missiles per tube means you could probably reserve one or two UKSK-M launch tube for CIWS self defence and be very well defended... they are lock on after launch missiles with two way datalinks... an ideal weapon to face swarm attacks...

    One thing I've always wondered about the UKSK-M is if they'll be able to stack smaller missiles like 9M100 ontop of each other or not? Also, will Redut be unified with the UKSK-M?

    Wondered that myself.

    The problem is that they might not think it is worth it for Corvettes and Frigates and the UKSK-M might be reserved for their bigger ship designs... and of course we still don't know about the S-500... it might be that current Redut launchers with 12 tubes can actually carry 12 x 250km and 400km range big missiles and that they can also fit 48 x 9M96 60km and 150km ranged missiles in the 12 tubes, which would mean if they were that way inclined they could fit 192 x 15km range 9M100 missiles in the 12 tubes... if they wanted... without layering.

    You do start to worry about how much all these damn missiles are going to cost, but then the UKSK-M drawings posted include also EW countermeasures loads as well so they likely wont be loading weapons into every single tube I suspect.
































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    Post  medo Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:20 pm

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:32 pm

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    Ready for trials, it seems.

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    Post  LMFS Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:49 pm

    The Pacific fleet will be replenished with corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385

    The Pacific Fleet will be replenished with 12 new corvettes, the ships will become part of fleet until 2027. This was stated by the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Nikolai Evmenov, according to the Ministry of Defense.

    According to the admiral, the Pacific Fleet has already begun to receive new surface ships, in total until 2027 it will include 12 corvettes of project 20380 and 20385. The ships are being built at the Amur shipyard in Komsomolsk-on-Amur and Severnaya Verf in St. Petersburg. The fleet will also receive Project 12700 mine defense ships (minesweepers).

    At present, the Pacific Fleet includes three Project 20380 corvettes - Sovershenny, Gromkiy and Aldar Tsydenzhapov, built at the Amur Shipyard, and one corvette of Project 20385, the lead ship of the Gremyashchy series, built at Severnaya Verf. By the end of the year, the fleet will receive the fourth corvette of project 20380 - "Sharp", which is currently being tested.

    As previously stated at the Amur Shipyard, in total for the Pacific Fleet, the plant will build six corvettes of project 20380, then it will begin to build a series of project 20385, so far without clarification.

    Corvettes of project 20380 are classified as multi-purpose combat surface ships of the 2nd rank of the near sea zone. The features of the ships of this project are compactness, stealth, and a high percentage of systems automation. Project 20385 is a further development of project 20380. It is designed to detect and destroy enemy surface ships or submarines, organize the landing of troops, protect the coastal zone, and escort other ships.

    https://en.topwar.ru/188806-tihookeanskij-flot-popolnitsja-korvetami-proektov-20380-i-20385.html

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    Post  Hole Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:36 pm

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    Speaking of Gremy: passing the Singapur strait

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:12 pm

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    Manila. Getting closer to their new home

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:52 pm

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    Post  Hole Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:02 pm

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    Rezkyiiiii

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:53 pm

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 9 16382512
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    Finally... and nice weather, too. Very Happy

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:54 pm

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:55 pm

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    New neighbours

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:33 pm

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    The 3 different masts in one pic.

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    Post  PapaDragon Yesterday at 5:01 am


    Excellent pics, dude thumbsup

    Nice to see this ship finally in the game, hopefully many more will follow

    Inventory in Port Vladivostok is getting fresher and fresher


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    Post  Hole Yesterday at 7:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Excellent pics, dude thumbsup

    Nice to see this ship finally in the game, hopefully many more will follow

    Inventory in Port Vladivostok is getting fresher and fresher



    At least the ships are getting fresher...

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    angel

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