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    Libyan Crisis #2

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:06 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    You'll notice my comment never said the US doesn't use mercs to do dirty work.

    You'll notice I never said Wagner is a war crime or I remotely care Putin is using Wagner to do shit. All majors powers use mercs for their goals its the 21st century welcome to common practice. China, US, Russia, EU all do it.

    You'll notice I simply said Wagner ARE Russians Mercs and they ARE that is a FACT.

    You seem to be arguing against air. Can't see anything here counter to what you have written and I doubt anyone here would disagree with you.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:43 pm

    Wagner is russian controlled but the mercenaries come from all eastern europe IMO.

    There should be a part of activity done only for money and a part done for the russian MoD with more professional and former russian soldiers.

    Then russian special force probably go with them as a cover for intel' or black ops.

    Hard to tell. Such companies hides their activities and make lot of fake documents to transport their stuff. A bit like dirty weapon sellers.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:00 pm

    You'll notice my comment never said the US doesn't use mercs to do dirty work.

    That is right, you didn't.


    ...or I remotely care Putin is using Wagner to do shit.

    That is the problem, please post communications to and from Putin proving he is in any way directing them...

    All majors powers use mercs for their goals its the 21st century welcome to common practice. China, US, Russia, EU all do it.

    It is common knowledge that the US openly uses mercs... but where is your evidence for the rest...

    You'll notice I simply said Wagner ARE Russians Mercs and they ARE that is a FACT.

    They are mercs, but not all of them are Russian. And there is no evidence that Russia has hired them in any capacity anywhere... unlike Blackwater, which were openly hired by the US military to do some of their dirty work.

    There should be a part of activity done only for money and a part done for the russian MoD with more professional and former russian soldiers.

    I have not seen any evidence to prove Wagner does any Russian government work.


    Then russian special force probably go with them as a cover for intel' or black ops.

    Why? What are you talking about? There is no evidence that Russia hires out its black ops or special forces jobs.

    Such companies hides their activities and make lot of fake documents to transport their stuff. A bit like dirty weapon sellers.

    Very few companies publish all the information about their activities and contracts... even more so in this line of work.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:16 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    You'll notice my comment never said the US doesn't use mercs to do dirty work.

    You'll notice I never said Wagner is a war crime or I remotely care Putin is using Wagner to do shit. All majors powers use mercs for their goals its the 21st century welcome to common practice. China, US, Russia, EU all do it.

    You'll notice I simply said Wagner ARE Russians Mercs and they ARE that is a FACT.

    You seem to be arguing against air. Can't see anything here counter to what you have written and I doubt anyone here would disagree with you.

    When it comes to a few people on this site, if it foes against the Russian narrative yes you are talking to air.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:33 pm


    I have not seen any evidence to prove Wagner does any Russian government work.

    They work for Assad and they work for LNA. Both supported by Russia. There were even pictures of russian soldiers with them in Syria.

    That's a russian company. Of course they work for russian MoD's interest.

    Why? What are you talking about? There is no evidence that Russia hires out its black ops or special forces jobs.

    I mean Russia send their special ops where Wagber operates. Easier to gain intel' and spy.

    Russia doesn't have a military prrsence in Libya so they will use wagner positions for their own special ops soldier.

    Just like west use its "NGO" in countries where they don't have militaries...
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    Post  par far on Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:19 pm

    Every major power uses Mercenaries/PMC, you cannot be that stupid to think they dont use them. The work they do are classified and for good reasons.

    The US just uses them more because they are fucking with every country.
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:32 pm

    par far wrote:Every major power uses Mercenaries/PMC, you cannot be that stupid to think they dont use them. The work they do are classified and for good reasons.

    The US just uses them more because they are fucking with every country.

    The chutzaph of the thread clown, SS, trying to claim that there is some issue with the hypothetical use of Wagner by Russia.
    Blackwater mercs working for the US committed war crimes. But we will not discuss that. Instead we will just spazz about
    Putin and Russia because mercs. This drivel is intellectually insulting.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:40 am

    kvs wrote:
    par far wrote:Every major power uses Mercenaries/PMC, you cannot be that stupid to think they dont use them. The work they do are classified and for good reasons.

    The US just uses them more because they are fucking with every country.

    The chutzaph of the thread clown, SS, trying to claim that there is some issue with the hypothetical use of Wagner by Russia.  
    Blackwater mercs working for the US committed war crimes.   But we will not discuss that.   Instead we will just spazz about
    Putin and Russia because mercs.   This drivel is intellectually insulting.  

    For a guy who used the term "intellectually insulting" you apparently cannot read English correctly.

    Care to point out where I said, "Oh Russia is so bad for using Wagner for its interests, what evil bastards" I am would really like to know where I said that since according to you, I did.

    All I said since apparently reading is hard is "Wagner is a Russian PMC Company that is used by the Kremlin for their national interests", you know I believe I even said I do not care that they are using them.

    But somehow I am claiming there is some moral wrong with Russia using them?. Well this is the kind of crap I expect from the worst pro-Russian fanboy on this site.

    It is beyond sad when I need to point out TWICE back to back. That people are trying to put words in my mouth and straight-up lying about what I said.

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    Post  nomadski on Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:59 am

    War by stealth? Fighting out of uniform?  If it has advantages. It also has disadvantages. Among the advantages :

    ( 1 ) Small scale actions, aimed at political ends, are possible. Without risking full scale
            war.

    ( 2 ) By nature, can not be large scale, needing national forces. Therefore affordable.

    Among the disadvantages :

    ( 1 ) The cryptic nature of actions, can lead to further conflagration among nations.

    ( 2)  By nature, of small scale, are usually militarily insignificant.

    I tend to think that, they have limited usefulness in the first instance. That is in cases where political solutions are possible. And protagonists are not in entrenched and antagonistic camps. And even in this case, they must not become an existential or long term threat. Otherwise the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Certainly there should be no loss of life. Examples are cyber attack or similar.
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:50 am

    Garry, methinks the Talking Bollocks thread beacons for some of this.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:36 am

    They work for Assad and they work for LNA.

    Which makes them a private company doesn't it?

    Blackwater took direct contracts from the US military to replace US military personnel on the ground.... all sorts of jobs including protecting US contractors etc etc.

    They work for Assad and they work for LNA. Both supported by Russia. There were even pictures of russian soldiers with them in Syria.

    There are pictures of White Helmets with ISIS and Alquada terrorists, helping clean up bodies after executions etc etc, White helmets funded direction by MOST western countries... to the tune of billions of dollars...

    That's a russian company. Of course they work for russian MoD's interest.

    They would not work against the Russian MoDs interests, but is that evidence they work for the Russian MoD?

    I mean Russia send their special ops where Wagber operates. Easier to gain intel' and spy.

    Do they?

    What does that prove? I would suggest Russia is more interested in areas where Wagner can't operate because it is controlled by ISIS or the Kurds because there would be more stuff to spy on and more intel to collect.

    Russia doesn't have a military prrsence in Libya so they will use wagner positions for their own special ops soldier.

    Isn't that a contradiction in terms... if Russia does not have a military presence in Libya then what special ops soldiers are you talking about?


    Just like west use its "NGO" in countries where they don't have militaries...

    Yes, because Russia is exactly the same as the west...

    Every major power uses Mercenaries/PMC, you cannot be that stupid to think they dont use them.

    So Wagner doesn't work for Assad or the LNA, they work for Putin... was that on the BBC or Fox News... whoops... the BBC is funded by the British government so it is a mercenary organisation for the British military too, and Fox News works for the same rich people Trump works for so they are really just a different branch of Blackwater too really...

    The work they do are classified and for good reasons.

    They can't be classified, they are not part of the military. It is called a trade secret.

    The chutzaph of the thread clown, SS, trying to claim that there is some issue with the hypothetical use of Wagner by Russia.
    Blackwater mercs working for the US committed war crimes. But we will not discuss that. Instead we will just spazz about
    Putin and Russia because mercs. This drivel is intellectually insulting.

    Its the usual bullshit... if the US does it then everyone does it and it is only a war crime if they can pin it on Putin or Russia...

    "Wagner is a Russian PMC Company that is used by the Kremlin for their national interests",

    Post the contract details.

    But somehow I am claiming there is some moral wrong with Russia using them?. Well this is the kind of crap I expect from the worst pro-Russian fanboy on this site.

    Moral means nothing from you, considering what you claim to do for a living, it is public knowledge the US uses private contractors to commit war crimes they don't want to associate themselves with.. they use Blackwater like they use the CIA, which is a criminal organisation too, the problem is that you have not connected the dots and proven anything yet, while claiming it is common knowledge.

    I can point to Guantanimo Bay and various secret facilities throughout europe where political enemies of the US are kidnapped and taken against their will and against international law to be tortured and held without trial or even basic human rights... and I can say that every government does that.... would I be right?

    That people are trying to put words in my mouth and straight-up lying about what I said.

    You are making claims without the proof to back it up.... not the first time though. Razz
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:49 am

    The proof is well out there for anyone to see the only people who don't choose to see it at pro-Russian fanboys period, you can make up all the stuff you want you try and BS it all you want. Doesn't change the fact Wagner is PMC group used by Russia for national interests.

    But I am talking to someone who is so pro-russian they will never admit facts that make Russians look bad and will only make up excuses for the Russians, so I know expecting you to see such a blatant fact is beyond hopeless.

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    Post  par far on Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They work for Assad and they work for LNA.

    Which makes them a private company doesn't it?

    Blackwater took direct contracts from the US military to replace US military personnel on the ground.... all sorts of jobs including protecting US contractors etc etc.

    They work for Assad and they work for LNA. Both supported by Russia. There were even pictures of russian soldiers with them in Syria.

    There are pictures of White Helmets with ISIS and Alquada terrorists, helping clean up bodies after executions etc etc, White helmets funded direction by MOST western countries... to the tune of billions of dollars...

    That's a russian company. Of course they work for russian MoD's interest.

    They would not work against the Russian MoDs interests, but is that evidence they work for the Russian MoD?

    I mean Russia send their special ops where Wagber operates. Easier to gain intel' and spy.

    Do they?

    What does that prove?  I would suggest Russia is more interested in areas where Wagner can't operate because it is controlled by ISIS or the Kurds because there would be more stuff to spy on and more intel to collect.

    Russia doesn't have a military prrsence in Libya so they will use wagner positions for their own special ops soldier.

    Isn't that a contradiction in terms... if Russia does not have a military presence in Libya then what special ops soldiers are you talking about?


    Just like west use its "NGO" in countries where they don't have militaries...

    Yes, because Russia is exactly the same as the west...

    Every major power uses Mercenaries/PMC, you cannot be that stupid to think they dont use them.

    So Wagner doesn't work for Assad or the LNA, they work for Putin... was that on the BBC or Fox News... whoops... the BBC is funded by the British government so it is a mercenary organisation for the British military too, and Fox News works for the same rich people Trump works for so they are really just a different branch of Blackwater too really...

    The work they do are classified and for good reasons.

    They can't be classified, they are not part of the military. It is called a trade secret.

    The chutzaph of the thread clown, SS, trying to claim that there is some issue with the hypothetical use of Wagner by Russia.
    Blackwater mercs working for the US committed war crimes. But we will not discuss that. Instead we will just spazz about
    Putin and Russia because mercs. This drivel is intellectually insulting.

    Its the usual bullshit... if the US does it then everyone does it and it is only a war crime if they can pin it on Putin or Russia...

    "Wagner is a Russian PMC Company that is used by the Kremlin for their national interests",

    Post the contract details.

    But somehow I am claiming there is some moral wrong with Russia using them?. Well this is the kind of crap I expect from the worst pro-Russian fanboy on this site.

    Moral means nothing from you, considering what you claim to do for a living, it is public knowledge the US uses private contractors to commit war crimes they don't want to associate themselves with.. they use Blackwater like they use the CIA, which is a criminal organisation too, the problem is that you have not connected the dots and proven anything yet, while claiming it is common knowledge.

    I can point to Guantanimo Bay and various secret facilities throughout europe where political enemies of the US are kidnapped and taken against their will and against international law to be tortured and held without trial or even basic human rights... and I can say that every government does that.... would I be right?

    That people are trying to put words in my mouth and straight-up lying about what I said.

    You are making claims without the proof to back it up.... not the first time though.   Razz


    I dont watch BBC, CNN of Fox News. All I am saying is that all major powers use mercenaries/PMC.

    The people working for Wagner, I think comes from all over Eastern Europe.


    Last edited by par far on Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  par far on Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:24 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The proof is well out there for anyone to see the only people who don't choose to see it at pro-Russian fanboys period, you can make up all the stuff you want you try and BS it all you want. Doesn't change the fact Wagner is PMC group used by Russia for national interests.

    But I am talking to someone who is so pro-russian they will never admit facts that make Russians look bad and will only make up excuses for the Russians, so I know expecting you to see such a blatant fact is beyond hopeless.



    Why would it make Russia look bad?

    The western countries use mercenaries/PMC all the time and they are not even afraid to say it.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:43 pm

    par far wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The proof is well out there for anyone to see the only people who don't choose to see it at pro-Russian fanboys period, you can make up all the stuff you want you try and BS it all you want. Doesn't change the fact Wagner is PMC group used by Russia for national interests.

    But I am talking to someone who is so pro-russian they will never admit facts that make Russians look bad and will only make up excuses for the Russians, so I know expecting you to see such a blatant fact is beyond hopeless.



    Why would it make Russia look bad?

    The western countries use mercenaries/PMC all the time and they are not even afraid to say it.


    I have no idea but that's what Garry is claiming and that maybe they are putting terrorists and mercs on the same level?, of course, Russia doesn't use Mercs which s laughable.

    Has I said I don't care that Russia uses Mercs everyone does it
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:00 pm

    Back on topic!

    This might be nothing but CVN69, the task group centered on USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, left the Gulf of Oman a few days ago and is currently somewhere around Suez. She might be on her way:

    - directly home to the US, unusual,

    - home via a port call in the Mediterranean, the normal tasking,

    - home via lurking off Libya, flexing US muscles.

    Place your bets Laughing
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:00 pm

    Go home. Trump has no interest in supporting Erdogan in a time of elections compaign for his reelection.

    Also if they intervene in Libya that will go against Egyptian interests and if Egypt also send in troops they will have tostop them. Even if their relation suck since Sisi took power they won't go at war with them for GNA, Libya and Erdogan.
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:23 pm

    Isos wrote:Go home. Trump has no interest in supporting Erdogan in a time of elections compaign for his reelection.

    Also if they intervene in Libya that will go against Egyptian interests and if Egypt also send in troops they will have tostop them. Even if their relation suck since Sisi took power they won't go at war with them for GNA, Libya and Erdogan.  

    You could well be on the money

    Lucas Tomlinson
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    Jul 27
    Jets from USS Dwight D. Eisenhower get in some target practice dropping bombs on small Greek island on way home from record setting deployment to Middle East: Navy

    Ike & escort ships at sea over 6 months without a port call since leaving Norfolk, Va. in January
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:57 am

    How much did I win JohninMK ? lol1

    Russian made counter UAV Groza-S in Lybia. Its tests against turkish military drones (and not the small ones but the bigger ones) will be nice to analyze and see what work and what don't and how good isthe system.

    Spotted in the end of may this year.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:53 am

    The proof is well out there for anyone to see

    What proof. Where is the proof?

    the only people who don't choose to see it at pro-Russian fanboys period,

    Which means all the anti Russia people on this forum see the proof... so form a queue and post it.

    you can make up all the stuff you want you try and BS it all you want.

    I am not making anything up, I am waiting for proof.

    Doesn't change the fact Wagner is PMC group used by Russia for national interests.

    What fact? Where?

    Wagner is made of former military personnel but not all are Russian as we have already established, so why would these non Russian PMC members care about Russian interests if they are not getting paid to do so? And if they are getting paid to do so does that still mean they are Putins tools?

    But I am talking to someone who is so pro-russian they will never admit facts that make Russians look bad and will only make up excuses for the Russians,

    Now you are just talking bollocks, you said yourself this merc group is not Blackwater and does not have any open contracts to murder people like Blackwater did and does. I want your proof that Wagner works for Putin.

    so I know expecting you to see such a blatant fact is beyond hopeless.

    So now the facts are blatant so you should be able to list them in order of importance right?

    I dont watch BBC, CNN of Fox News. All I am saying is that all major powers use mercenaries/PMC.

    Based on what evidence? Are you also going to claim all major powers have bases in Cuba where they torture people and hold them illegally for unlimited periods outside of their own justice system in a sort of limbo where they can do as they please? Is Russia supporting the illegal drug trade in Afghanistan for the purpose of ensuring plenty of dangerous drugs get into Russia and Europe in the hopes it would undermine the EU like the US does?

    The people working for Wagner, I think comes from all over Eastern Europe.

    So these people working for Wagner... are they there to follow orders from Putin.... is Vladimir Putin the CEO of Wagner?

    Or are they the A team that only saves the victims and the innocent and occasionally helps the American Russian Government because they are just patriots...

    They even hand back the money when the job is done because they are so nice...

    I have no idea but that's what Garry is claiming and that maybe they are putting terrorists and mercs on the same level?

    Talk about blaming someone for your own actions, you are confusing me with the United States of America... who will get in to bed with ISIS and Al Quada if they think they can hurt Russian interests. They will pay millions of dollars to Blackwater to "Make problems go away"... but every country does that... you don't need evidence... just say it a lot.

    of course, Russia doesn't use Mercs which s laughable.

    Has I said I don't care that Russia uses Mercs everyone does it

    Well that is a good place to start then is it not... list the French, British, Italian, German and Belgian mercs that get used by their respective governments for such jobs...

    You are in the business so you must be able to list them from the top of your head...

    Russian made counter UAV Groza-S in Lybia. Its tests against turkish military drones (and not the small ones but the bigger ones) will be nice to analyze and see what work and what don't and how good isthe system.

    Spotted in the end of may this year.

    Well this is an opportunity isn't it... if the Russians are testing equipment in Libya it would be a Wagner controlled operation surely because Wagner is operating there.

    I would suggest that Wagner might have all sorts of access to weapons and equipment on the international market, but I doubt they would use them instead of actual special forces and Russian units tasked with protecting civilian technicians who are testing equipment in a war zone.

    Patrols through Syrian streets are Russian military as well... not mercs... why are they not copying the Americans and doing what America does?

    Could it be possible they are not the same as America?

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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:41 pm

    Countries use mercenaries so that there is no proof they got involved directly. Wagner is important for Russia no matter what you think. It is owned by a guy close to Putin and they help Russian forces in their operations in Syria as well as in Libya. Being a private company they also need to make money and do operations where russia isn't involved directly.

    You can be anti-US as much as you want and point at their war crimes all day, that doesn't make russians angels. Their bombings in Syria kill also civilians, their war in Chechnya was dirty and their war in Afghanistan was as usefull as Vietnam war for US. Russian also admitted working with talibans against ISIS because it was in their interests. That's mostly true for any country.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:20 pm

    No it isn't. Longest time people were claiming the guy crying "600 dead" or whatever in Syria needed up being some kind of mental retard that called himself a cossack, was Wagner boss. This is what Pompeo was using as evidence and trying to brag they killed 600 Russians.  Even though no evidence and list of dead was 12 guys, mostly Bulgarians.  This all changed after RT met the so called boss and he was this scrawny guy who clearly had mental illness and even witnesses to him mentioned it.

    This "Wagner" is all hearsay.

    Here is reality - these guys are paid mercenaries that don't fall under a flag or group like a PMC. It's really the classic fundamental mercenary.

    Wagner boss being close to Putin?  You guys will believe anything you read lol. Better adjust that tinfoil hat.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:33 pm

    They were pictured with russian made Tigr-M. They got mig-29 in Libya. Just posted a picture of a modern anti UAV system. Normal mercebaries don't have such stuff.

    Wagner exist and they are supported by Russian government. There are lot of footage of them.

    Again it's not because US say bullshit that makes everything fake. Russian words are not trustworthy too. Putin said the little green men in Crimea were not Russian and after everything was secured and he got Crimea he admited they were his men.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:39 pm

    Isos wrote:They were pictured with russian made Tigr-M. They got mig-29 in Libya. Just posted a picture of a modern anti UAV system. Normal mercebaries don't have such stuff.

    Wagner exist and they are supported by Russian government. There are lot of footage of them.

    Again it's not because US say bullshit that makes everything fake. Russian words are not trustworthy too. Putin said the little green men in Crimea were not Russian and after everything was secured and he got Crimea he admited they were his men.

    Correct but you are wasting your breath on those two they will argue against if even tho it's clear as day.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:59 pm

    Show the proof that they are.

    MiG-29 pilots in Africa are common.  See Sudan and Eritrea.  They are used commonly.  Yes, mercenaries are pictured.  Wagner is not.  GarryB been asking it.

    You guys like to believe Sieg who is a known liar and has been exposed multiple times here.  Its up to you what you want to believe but this forum as Garry said was to post none fake news and all you guys do is post it.

    Tiger-M and what not can be acquired quite easily.  Just because items are purchased from Russia and sent, doesnt mean Russia is directly involved.

    I know you guys are internet detectives, but please try to keep within the realms of reality.  Thank you.

    Using equipment as an example is funny.  Especially since involved nations in Libya use or purchase such systems (pantsir as example).  I recall that during the 90's people kept saying Russia was sponsoring the Taliban cause they were using Russian made equipment.  Well, you will be surprised how much is left behind and or transported from neighboring countries during a time of conflict.  In other words, shit can be sent from Syria to Libya, especially since Haftar and Assad has common goals.   During the conflict between Sudan and S.Sudan, MiG-29 pilots were Russian.  During Eritrea and Ethiopia conflict (MiG-29's used by Eritrea and Su-27 by Ethiopia), both sides pilots were Russian (well, Ethiopia had more Ethiopian pilots of course).

    Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians and the like have been used by western mercenaries as well especially during the early 2000's.  People mistaken, and for good reason, Bulgarians, Ukrainians and Russians alike since the language commonality is around 88+ % thus its easy to mistake them.  Add in, there are a lot of Chechen and Cossack volunteer units used in Russian conflicts and or abroad.  I doubt they are volunteers but paid.  And there are a lot of sponsors who would want to pay for such experienced men.

    The only thing I can get behind in and know it isn't load of bullshit, is GRU used in these conflicts. Its not only great experience but they are used mostly for advisory roles and or providing logistical and intelligence training. Something that is necessary for Haftar or lets say Bashir.

    So, now we are here, can someone point to me exactly who runs Wagner, how they are tied to Putin and evidence to support it (Russian evidence, not US evidence cause they are lying every time they open their mouths or type on the keyboard).

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