Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+23
KoTeMoRe
magnumcromagnon
Stealthflanker
medo
Isos
SeigSoloyvov
Big_Gazza
nomadski
par far
kvs
crod
PapaDragon
Gomig-21
jhelb
dino00
ultimatewarrior
Cyberspec
GarryB
miketheterrible
George1
Tsavo Lion
AbdulhamidtheSecond
JohninMK
27 posters

    Libyan Crisis #2

    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1654
    Points : 1830
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ahmedfire Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:51 am

    Isos wrote:Which missile did they use ? Only one with such range would be the Scalp.

    They have also Storm shadow ,air launched Harpoon and HARM .
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  JohninMK Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:53 am

    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    Turkey don't have technology. Hell, even their TB2 drones have to import EO from Canada. Turkey made things don't work. Have you ever seen a Turkey made smartphone or car? No you haven't.

    We have seen those photos once already. You don't need to be lazy, you could post without them as per Forum rules.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 4229
    Points : 4313
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  medo Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:23 am

    Scalp and Storm shadow is the same missile. French use name Scalp and Brits use name Storm shadow. I still wander, why Turks didn't show remains of the missiles yet. With remains we could see what type of missiles were used and with serial numbers who is the owner. Something is fishy here, that they don't want to show remains. If they were from LNA, Egypt or UAE, they would already show them. It could be someone else. France or Greece? If attack would be done by LNA, Turkey would be already bomb Haftar's positions and Al Jufra air base.
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  JohninMK Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:49 am

    Inevitable. Fighting over loot?

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (3:00 P.M.) – The United Nations Support Mission in Libya has expressed deep concern about the recent clashes between different Turkish-backed groups in Janzour, a residential area of ​​Tripoli.

    These clashes have reportedly terrorized the local population and resulted in a number of deaths and injuries.

    The U.N. mission condemned such reckless acts that put civilians directly at risk, while Tripoli is still recovering from a 15-month blockade.

    The Mission noted that the occurrence of these clashes underscores the need for the Government of the National Accord to move quickly towards effective security sector reform, in conjunction with the disarmament, demobilization and reintegration of armed groups.

    The clashes between these Turkish-backed groups were first reported earlier in the week and since then, they have been sporadic, with the most intense firefights taking place on Friday.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/turkish-backed-libyan-forces-fight-each-other-in-tripoli/
    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2907
    Points : 3062
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:21 am

    What looks like a Wagner column heading to Sirte

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 LNA-1
    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 LNA-2
    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 LNA-3

    And a shitty quality video here
    https://twitter.com/Cyberspec1/status/1282124470405042176
    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior

    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:08 am

    Cyberspec wrote:What looks like a Wagner column heading to Sirte

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 LNA-1
    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 LNA-2
    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 LNA-3

    And a shitty quality video here
    https://twitter.com/Cyberspec1/status/1282124470405042176

    IMO it would be better for them to use Buk M2. Buk M2 performed very well in Idlib causing Turks to pack out of M5 highway. Buk M2 out ranges Pantsir by more than 2 times.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 8030
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Isos Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:06 am

    Buk needs trained operators sent in Russia for training. Pantsir need 3 operators and UAE can form them quicker on the battlefield.
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  JohninMK Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:23 am

    ultimatewarrior wrote:

    IMO it would be better for them to use Buk M2. Buk M2 performed very well in Idlib causing Turks to pack out of M5 highway. Buk M2 out ranges Pantsir by more than 2 times.

    WTF do you keep reposting photos? This time they were in the previous post. Are you just lazy?

    As I said yesterday, its against the rules.
    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior

    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:07 pm

    Isos wrote:Buk needs trained operators sent in Russia for training. Pantsir need 3 operators and UAE can form them quicker on the battlefield.

    Latest Pantsir SM has 40 km range missiles compared to 18 km range missiles in Pantsir S1. It's not that much difference to Buk M2.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 8030
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Isos Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:31 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    Isos wrote:Buk needs trained operators sent in Russia for training. Pantsir need 3 operators and UAE can form them quicker on the battlefield.

    Latest Pantsir SM has 40 km range missiles compared to 18 km range missiles in Pantsir S1. It's not that much difference to Buk M2.

    Turkish drones have weapons with less than 10km range. With their Koral destroy, pantsirs are safe. It was the main problem for pantsirs because it is a powerfull jammer.
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  JohninMK Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:22 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Turkish drones have weapons with less than 10km range. With their Koral destroy, pantsirs are safe. It was the main problem for pantsirs because it is a powerfull jammer.

    Must be a good chance that they have moved another Koral in.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 8030
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Isos Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:33 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Turkish drones have weapons with less than 10km range. With their Koral destroy, pantsirs are safe. It was the main problem for pantsirs because it is a powerfull jammer.

    Must be a good chance that they have moved another Koral in.

    The front is too large to make a difference. It has a limited range and if the move it too much forward it can be destroyed by su-24.

    It's not like in Syria where they faced isolated pantsirs near their border and near the operation area of their drones. In Libya they will use it mainly to deny a zone to LNA drones and won't be able to send it close to LNA bases defended by pantsirs.

    But that's still a dangerous system that I wouldn't like to have it operating near my AD. I would destroy it ASAP.
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1654
    Points : 1830
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ahmedfire Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:41 pm

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Fb_img10
    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Fb_img11

    Cyberspec and Gomig-21 like this post

    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior

    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:48 am

    ahmedfire wrote:Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Fb_img10
    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Fb_img11

    UAE air force Mirage 2000-9 strike jets took out the Ottoman Hawk batteries using Apache stand off missiles from 100+ km away.
    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior

    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:52 am

    Isos wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    Isos wrote:Buk needs trained operators sent in Russia for training. Pantsir need 3 operators and UAE can form them quicker on the battlefield.

    Latest Pantsir SM has 40 km range missiles compared to 18 km range missiles in Pantsir S1. It's not that much difference to Buk M2.

    Turkish drones have weapons with less than 10km range. With their Koral destroy, pantsirs are safe. It was the main problem for pantsirs because it is a powerfull jammer.

    TB2 has very small size. Pantsir radar can detect it from about 15 km away. That leaves a 5 km window for Pantsir to shoot TB2 before TB2 can shoot Pantsir.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 8030
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Isos Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:56 am

    And you think turkish drones can detect a pantsir at 100km ?
    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior

    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:57 am

    4 Erdogan Muslim Brotherhood Hawk / Koral systems destroyed by UAE air force Mirage 2000-9 jets using Apache stand off range missiles.

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fdefense-arab.com%2Fvb%2Fproxy.php%3Fimage%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fpbs.twimg

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fdefense-arab.com%2Fvb%2Fproxy.php%3Fimage%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fpbs.twimg

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior

    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:59 am

    Isos wrote:And you think turkish drones can detect a pantsir at 100km ?

    TB2 uses EO imported from Canada. It should be able to see Pantsir from about 10 km away using high power zoom. Pantsir radar can detect TB2 from about 15 km away.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 8030
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Isos Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:07 am

    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    Isos wrote:And you think turkish drones can detect a pantsir at 100km ?

    TB2 uses EO imported from Canada. It should be able to see Pantsir from about 10 km away using high power zoom. Pantsir radar can detect TB2 from about 15 km away.

    But to zoom on something you need to spot it first. 15km is impossible. A pantsir painted in sand cammo is not easy to spot in the desert. Just look at the pictures if the hawk above. They are tiny on optics even if they are black it's hard to see them.

    Pantsir has the advantage. That's why many drones are downed. It's radar detect them everytime they come at a certain range. The drones can only see the pantsirs if they are lucky and look at the good place at the good time.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30976
    Points : 31502
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:51 am

    Latest Pantsir SM has 40 km range missiles compared to 18 km range missiles in Pantsir S1. It's not that much difference to Buk M2.

    Pantsir-SM is not for export yet.

    Must be a good chance that they have moved another Koral in.

    Gotta think the reason for the attack was to get the Koral... moving another in is just asking for another attack...

    But that's still a dangerous system that I wouldn't like to have it operating near my AD. I would destroy it ASAP.

    A simple suicide drone that detects the powerful jamming signal would do... fly along most of the flight at low altitude following the signal... wouldn't need line of sight till it was flying over it... and then boom.

    TB2 has very small size. Pantsir radar can detect it from about 15 km away. That leaves a 5 km window for Pantsir to shoot TB2 before TB2 can shoot Pantsir.

    Correction... can shoot at Pantsir.... Pantsir can engage 4 targets at one time, so unless it is firing five missiles at the Pantsir it can fire back and destroy the drone...

    TB2 uses EO imported from Canada. It should be able to see Pantsir from about 10 km away using high power zoom. Pantsir radar can detect TB2 from about 15 km away.

    High power optical zoom without any other assistance is like trying to spot one man in a crowd of 1,000 while looking through a straw...
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  JohninMK Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:03 pm

    Garry, I know its a bit petty but can you tell UW to bide by the rules and stop double posting photos especially straight after each other? That's twice now and I did remind him. Ta
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30976
    Points : 31502
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:53 pm

    Honestly I took your warning to him as a reminder of the rules... if he does it again he has no excuse because he knows the rules and you have reminded him too.

    When I make a big reply that is to lots of previous posts I quote what I am replying to, but as it says in the rules just repeating an entire post just to reply to one part of the entire post is against the rules... doubly so if there are a lot of photos involved.

    Open your reply in a new tab by right clicking on the reply button and choosing open a new tab and then flick between the original thread and your new post to put in any quotes you might want to reply to.

    If you use the quote button that is OK but take the time to remove the stuff you are not replying to so you only quote the relevant bit and not the whole post.

    If anyone doesn't understand that please send me a private message and I can go into greater detail.

    Time outs for those who think the rules don't apply to them.

    And if you see someone break the rules and you like them post to tell them to fix it before I or George1 see it, or you can send me a PM so when I log on next time to read all the posts I know what to look for... otherwise I will probably find it myself.

    The rules are for everyone to make the forum easier to read and to be as compact as possible... I am sure you would all find the same posts getting posted over and over again to be annoying and a terrible waste of space. These rules are there to prevent that.

    And we the mods do appreciate members bringing things to our attention... this is your forum too, so helping keep it tidy and to the rules is actually a good thing.

    GarryB
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 4229
    Points : 4313
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  medo Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:37 pm

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 14347313

    This is a horror. Who in sane mind would drive Pantsirs, who are there to protect convoy, on trailers? This is madnes. Fieldmarshal Haftar should shot responsible officer for such idiocity. When Arabs will learn anything? Pantsir is on a wheeled truck and it should drive around by itself, not on the trailer. It's not tracked tank, which should be driven in such vay to spare tracks for battlefield. Pantsir could fire on the move, but only to limited speed, not at full speed like those trailes drive. Pantsir should drive itself, that the crew, which see a danger, could say to driver by intercom to slow down, that they could engage it. How could the crew comunicate with the driver of the trailer? Also Pantsir on the ground is far more stable, that on the trailer. In such case crew inside could not react to danger, but could only watch, how the incoming missile will kill them.

    And than there will be a lot of "smart" people, who will said, how Patsir is bad against drones. It's not Pantsir, which is bad, but the crews.

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Eys-pb10

    Considering, what kind of Pantsir manuals Arab Pantsir crews have, it is no wonder, that they hardly know the basics of the use of Pantsir and any higher air defense tactics is terra incognita for them. Buk and S-400 would not help them if they don't know, how to use them. Good example is Saudi Arabia. Saudi air defense was a full disaster against Houti drones and missiles. When they got Greek crews for Patriots, they start showing results and shot down some missiles and drones. Armenians could shot down way smaller drones like Orbiter-3 and Harop with ZSU-23-4 and Osa, while Arabs can not larger Bayraktar with Pantsir. Rolling Eyes
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 8030
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Isos Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:59 pm

    The lack of immediate spare parts could answer your first point.

    In terms of training, pantsir should be pretty easy. That's a 3 man crew and being new it shouldn't be harder to learn than a software. But lybians are not used to new tech and also are not graduate from engineer schools.

    Russian AD operators spent 4 or 5 years in specialized universities to learn all the radar theories and electronics. You can't just use it like on a video game. You need to know everything about the system and how it works to use it at 100%.

    I'm pretty sure those lybians operating them don't even know about SEAD operations or enemy jamming systems or ELINT systems...
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9366
    Points : 9473
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  JohninMK Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:39 pm

    The Pantsirs are being driven on a transporter because they evaluated the risk to them versus speed of deployment and the risk was low. There is peace on that front and has been for a week or two now. In my eyes a reasonable decision.

    As to their effectiveness we are just, probably reasonably, guessing that they were Emerati possibly Libyan crews at least initially. Is is really reasonable to think that they would be as good as a Russian or other well drilled team? Of course not but they were thrown against a very trained, in Syria, Turkish UAV team who knew exactly what they were doing. Possibly the best atm outside the US/UK. Also, they were not deployed as they were intended to be but as necessity demanded. They were on their own which makes them vulnerable in the many situations that we here have described.

    The Libyans are not necessarily a bunch of dumbos either. Remember that up until the fall of Ghaddafi they had free kindergarten to university education. This means that there could well be a cadre of soldiers 30+ who have been technically trained, possibly on their ex Soviet gear. Not good but they might have a grounding, enough perhaps to help those who do know who might well be there.

    If this new front is in a more concentrated area and the attackers are just drones, then a group of Pantsirs have a much better chance. If the TAF bring in F-16s or helicopters with standoff missiles, then it is a very different ballgame as that will widen the range of targets to be protected.

    There are claims that another 1400 Syrian terrorists have arrived in the last week, the fastest rate of arrival so far. Whatever, if this kicks off then there will be a slaughter, especially if the LNA has some rocket artillery up its sleeve. The LNA are firing into an area that does't contain much else than opposition forces. The GNA are firing into an area that contains very valuable oil assets that I assume they will want to protect, as does the LNA, if they can. Hence the suggestion of a Turkish Marine landing to the east of Sirte and the Egyptian anti landing exercise last week.

    The Russians do have a good card to play, 'does Turkey want to fight on two fronts with thousands of their gun fodder terrorist away from Syria?'.




    Sponsored content

    Libyan Crisis #2 - Page 7 Empty Re: Libyan Crisis #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:46 pm