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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue May 31, 2022 7:52 pm

    Hypersonic missiles (like Zircon) will probably replace supersonic missiles (like Yakhont) completely. Why will the military use supersonic missiles when they have access to hypersonic missiles.

    However, long range subsonic missiles (like Kalibr) will probably not be replaced.

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    Podlodka77


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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:25 am

    Sujoy wrote:Hypersonic missiles (like Zircon) will probably replace supersonic missiles (like Yakhont) completely. Why will the military use supersonic missiles when they have access to hypersonic missiles.

    However, long range subsonic missiles (like Kalibr) will probably not be replaced.

    This is not impossible, although it should be emphasized that there are no anti-ship coastal missile complexes in the West, such as the 3K55 "Bastion". But if the Russians have already announced that they are working on a terrestrial variant of the "Zircon" missile, which may or may not happen (time will tell), then that means that the future will be hypersonic for coastal systems as well. I am sure that the vast majority of submarines will be re-equipped with hypersonic missiles, compared to supersonic ones, while that (at least initially) might be a smaller number on surface warships. Project submarines 885M, 949AM, probably 971M, 22350 frigates and "Admiral Nakhimov". Of course, the modernized ships of the 1155 "Fregat" project will also be able to carry these missiles. There have already been stories that these missiles will be on small missile ships as well or 21631 "Buyan-M" and 22800 "Karakurt".
    As for cruise missiles, I do not rule out the possibility that technology will advance so much that they will also become hypersonic.
    caveat emptor
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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 35 Empty Re: 3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Post  caveat emptor Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:35 am

    I believe that not all Onyx will be replaced, as there were talks of upgrading Onyx by improving speed, range and guidance. They will still be present in the mix that ships and subs are carrying, as you won't be needing to use Zircon for every target. Also Bastion proved very successful in hitting ground targets. As a very capable and cheaper solution i can see it being used along with Zircon.Zircon will be deployed most often in high priority areas such as Northern and Pacific fleet that are part of world ocean. Small internal seas like Baltic, won't need Zircon as there are barely any serious war ships deployed there.

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    Podlodka77


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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:30 am

    Just before the impact.

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 35 31-10813
    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 35 31-10814

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:54 am

    caveat emptor wrote:I believe that not all Onyx will be replaced, as there were talks of upgrading Onyx by improving speed, range and guidance. They will still be present in the mix that ships and subs are carrying, as you won't be needing to use Zircon for every target. Also Bastion proved very successful in hitting ground targets. As a very capable and cheaper solution i can see it being used along with Zircon.Zircon will be deployed most often in high priority areas such as Northern and Pacific fleet that are part of world ocean. Small internal seas like Baltic, won't need Zircon as there are barely any serious war ships deployed there.
    What makes you think Onyx will be cheaper than Zircon once Zircon enters mass production?
    I kind of doubt it.
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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 35 Empty Re: 3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:12 pm

    Not every anti ship missile needs to be a Zircon because not every ship they will be wanting to sink will be defended or even aware it is under attack.

    Onyx missiles have been in production for some time and they likely have large numbers of them in stock... it was also the basis for the export Yakhont and Brahmos missiles.

    Traditionally they don't scrap anything that is still useful and with its land attack capacity intact even hitting isolated first tier targets the Onyx would be effective most of the time.

    Hell US troops in the Middle East are vulnerable to ballistic missile attack, so I would expect they are likely not better protected against supersonic vertically diving missiles either... in fact a few Onyx missiles coming in vertically to take out Patriot missile radars or the radars of Aster and the next wave of missiles will be attacking blind SAMs systems...

    Russia probably has more attack missiles than the west has SAMs... not something you can say in reverse...

    Zircon is essentially Onyx with improved materials for higher speed flight and revised aerodynamic shape and the replacement of the ramjet motor with a scramjet and new more energetic fuel.

    Reportedly the new fuel doubles the speed performance of the Onyx and also doubles the flight range which in itself is impressive... mach 5 and 800km flight range has been mentioned...

    I suspect Onyx will continue in production even just for export as Yakhonts... but you can't just put scramjet motors in Onyx and get mach 10 flight speed... it would likely destroy itself trying to get that fast.... in the same way a modern turbofan jet engine put into an Me 262 would not make it supersonic because it would probably break first.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:18 pm

    Zircon is essentially Onyx with improved materials for higher speed flight and revised aerodynamic shape and the replacement of the ramjet motor with a scramjet and new more energetic fuel.

    That's why they will just stop producing oniks... Zirkon isn't any more expensive to make since it has the same engine with no moving parts and same type of fuel but does better.

    For export they can just put limitations on it and sell it for use from the same launchers.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:35 am

    GarryB wrote:I suspect Onyx will continue in production even just for export as Yakhonts... but you can't just put scramjet motors in Onyx and get mach 10 flight speed... it would likely destroy itself trying to get that fast.... in the same way a modern turbofan jet engine put into an Me 262 would not make it supersonic because it would probably break first.
    I think, taking lessons from the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, Russia will make massive investments in developing cruise missiles that can hit moving targets, regardless of how fast targets like MBTs, Ships, IFVs are traveling.

    Brimstone apparently can hit moving targets even if they are traveling at high speed and the Predator drone can apparently do the same with the hellfire missile. However, there is no way to independently prove these claims. Most Western weapons do not work as effectively on the battlefield as they are advertised.

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:05 am

    Brimstone is an ATGM, Predator is a drone. What has this to do with cruise missiles?

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:39 am

    Hole wrote:Brimstone is an ATGM, Predator is a drone. What has this to do with cruise missiles?
    Er.....Brimstone is a cruise missile that can be air launched from fighters and drones or sea launched from ships. I wrote, Predator drones uses the Hellfire missiles to hit moving targets.

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:20 am

    Sujoy I have a strong suspicion that article 305 missile will be used by MALE and HALE UAVs in the not too distant future. It is looking to be an incredible though expensive missile and would fit that niche I bet.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:10 pm

    That's why they will just stop producing oniks... Zirkon isn't any more expensive to make since it has the same engine with no moving parts and same type of fuel but does better.

    We don't know enough to be sure about anything.

    The new fuel might be very expensive or hard to source, the materials the Zircon is made from would need to be rather more heat resistent than the bits that make the Onyx, so it likely wont be the same price, but the performance is obviously also much better and shifting Onyx production to Zircon production should lead to the costs going down.

    The fact that they use the same launch tube is a serious bonus because in many cases I suspect either weapon would do a good job.

    For export they can just put limitations on it and sell it for use from the same launchers.

    For export Yakhont is already a potent missile western navies would have problems dealing with... the material Zircon is made out of and its actual physical shape is a secret the Russians will want to keep to themselves for as long as they can... a physical shape that is low drag at mach 10 would be useful for all sorts of weapons including AAMs and SAMs and other weapons too... hell even an anti tank rocket scramjet weapon flying at mach 10 which is double the 1.5km per second of most modern APFSDS rounds... put a 5kg metal dart core down the body of the missile and launch it so that at 10-30km it is flying at mach 10 or 3km/s and it is going to do serious damage to any armoured vehicle it hits...

    I think, taking lessons from the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, Russia will make massive investments in developing cruise missiles that can hit moving targets, regardless of how fast targets like MBTs, Ships, IFVs are traveling.

    Cruise missiles?

    Kh-59M missiles are optically guided... as are TV guided Kh-29T missiles and the laser guided Kh-29L... all of which can hit and kill moving targets.

    TV, Radar, IIR, SALH, and manually guided missiles can all hit moving targets...

    Brimstone apparently can hit moving targets even if they are traveling at high speed

    Brimstone is an active radar homing version of Hellfire... the Russian equivalents in the form of Vihkr and Ataka and Khrisantema and Kornet and Hermes and LMUR can all hit moving targets...

    and the Predator drone can apparently do the same with the hellfire missile.

    We have seen video footage of Russian drones using Kornet against moving targets... Hinds, Hips, Havocs, Hokums can all hit moving targets with ATGMs... it is not a new trick.

    However, there is no way to independently prove these claims.

    Such claims are not that big a deal... even Russian tanks can hit moving targets with their guns and also with tank gun launched missiles.

    It is only weapons guided purely by sat nav that can only hit fixed coordinates. Russian cruise missiles have terminal homing seekers so when they arrive in the vicinity of the target via GLONASS they can look at the target location and see the target and identify a part of the target to hit... you can't use them against tanks because launching them from 3,000km away and flying at 600-700km/h most of the way means they take hours to get to the target area by which time the tanks would be gone... and even if they weren't 400kg of HE is too much to waste on a single tank.

    If they want to hit a train they can use the Kh-59M with TV guidance and datalink so the guy in the launch aircraft can see a video image of what the missile sees and target the train from 100km away... of the bridge the train is approaching or half on at the time.

    Er.....Brimstone is a cruise missile that can be air launched from fighters and drones or sea launched from ships.

    Brimstone is a British version of Hellfire ATGM.

    It uses radar... the closest Russian equivalent is probably LMUR which is IIR guided.

    Sujoy I have a strong suspicion that article 305 missile will be used by MALE and HALE UAVs in the not too distant future. It is looking to be an incredible though expensive missile

    With new QWIP based sensors the IIR sensor in the missile might not be that expensive and might become quite affordable over time if they make a lot of them... they are making them for their armoured vehicles and new rifle sights and optics on all sorts of air, sea, and land based platforms.

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:23 pm

    TMA1 wrote:Sujoy I have a strong suspicion that article 305 missile will be used by MALE and HALE UAVs in the not too distant future. It is looking to be an incredible though expensive missile and would fit that niche I bet.
    Possible. I suspect Article 305 will be used by helos as well as UAVs.
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    Post  owais.usmani Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:24 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:Just before the impact.

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 35 31-10813
    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 35 31-10814

    Please post the video from which these were taken.

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:54 am

    I don't take them seriously. Not because they are bad or anything but often the Russians will use different explosions/impacts from different missiles. There is good reason for it. Event the impact could share a lot about the missile and how to potentially knock it out.

    That's just my opinion on things at least.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:49 pm

    Another factor is that the physical shape of the Zircon is secret because the west don't know how to make them work efficiently at high speeds and these missiles have a flght range of 1,500km which means sustained flight at mach 10... getting the shape right is just as important as getting the scramjet motor running long enough to do the job so it is very much not in their interests to show the external shape of the Zircon missile.

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