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    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:54 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The_Observer wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    T-90, drone deployable from Smerch rocket launchers.
    Kamakazi drone?

    Recon

    Checks out the target zone so rest of the rockets can hit the bullseye on the first go






    Other way around; it monitors the target zone to allow the operators to see where the salvo landed, and make corrections for the next salvo
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:36 pm

    We can see here the Serius and Helios UAVs at Army-2020

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8022p125-uavs-in-russian-armed-forces-news-2#292115

    Serius UAV
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 12 Serius10


    Helios UAV
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 12 Helius10


    Grom UAV also
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 12 83090411
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 12 83094710
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 12 83099010

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4122894.html


    All manufactured by the Kronstadt Group


    Last edited by George1 on Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  George1 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 pm

    So we have:
    Serius UAV = Inokhodets-RU/Orion-2 and is the next stage in the development of the Orion project
    Helios is a radar surveillance UAV
    Grom high speed strike UAV seems very interesting

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:59 pm

    George1 wrote:So we have:
    Serius UAV = Inokhodets-RU/Orion-2 and is the next stage in the development of the Orion project
    ....

    Okay so if I got this right Inokhodec (Eng 'Pacer') is Orion derivative and is that double engine drone on first photo?
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    Post  George1 Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:37 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:So we have:
    Serius UAV = Inokhodets-RU/Orion-2 and is the next stage in the development of the Orion project
    ....

    Okay so if I got this right Inokhodec (Eng 'Pacer') is Orion derivative and is that double engine drone on first photo?

    Inokhodets is the R&D project name of Orion

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 12 87692011
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 12 Orion-10

    In Post n°277 the first photo is Serius(Orion-2) UAV. R&D project name Inokhodets-RU
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:21 pm

    The Sirius and the Helios looks like they are more stealthy. The materials seems to be special compare to Orion which looks to be made out of more classical plastic/composite like materials.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:36 pm

    Isos wrote:The Sirius and the Helios looks like they are more stealthy. The materials seems to be special compare to Orion which looks to be made out of more classical plastic/composite like materials.

    Hardly

    Those are mockups, Orion looked just as smooth as mockup


    Sirius uses same engines as Orion so I assume payload and range should roughly be double, give or take?

    Also Helios has a shaky future now that Altus is in the mix

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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:51 pm

    Altius is way bigger and meant to patrol around USA with ELINT pod.

    Helios seems to be for recco with a mapping radar or for naval activities (mostly spotting ships).

    Sirius is an Orion on steroids that will patrol where there is less AD. It also has the big head hosting a big antenna for satellite command.

    Orion is the cheap, very used drone for the next 20 years with plenty of different versions. It will be used in heavy AD zones to take them out being smaller than the other. Present 24/7 on the front. I guess they will have 5000-10 000 of them in few years.

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    Post  ult Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:46 am

    Isos wrote:Altius is way bigger and meant to patrol around USA with ELINT pod.

    Helios seems to be for recco with a mapping radar or for naval activities (mostly spotting ships).

    Sirius is an Orion on steroids that will patrol where there is less AD. It also has the big head hosting a big antenna for satellite command.

    Orion is the cheap, very used drone for the next 20 years with plenty of different versions. It will be used in heavy AD zones to take them out being smaller than the other. Present 24/7 on the front. I guess they will have 5000-10 000 of them in few years.

    5000-10000? I'm sorry, wtf are you smoking? The current production rate is 20 per year, it's not cheap, each drone costs a couple of million dollars, without the ground stations. Kronstadt has a limited production capacity, and it will be a good job for them to produce around 100 orions in 3 years. For anything above that they'd need to expand their production and build a new plant, which will take years, and even then 5000-10000 is a fucking pipe dream. Who's gonna service them? Who's gonna fly them? Where the fuck would Russia store 10000 orions?
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:56 am

    They used to have thousands of fighters. There are no problem servicing so many drones. They even plan new drone airfields as you can see on the picture I posted above.

    Russia is huge and they will need them at all their borders and for operation abroad (Syria, Africa, south america maybe, Cuba to look on US naval bases).

    Production just started so it's limited. Once they speed up they will build 20-30 per month easily.

    IMO their cost will fall to under 1 million. That's the price of one missile, even less.

    They won't need to use 5000 drones but they will need reserve because they are easy targets.
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    Post  ult Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:20 am

    Isos wrote:They used to have thousands of fighters. There are no problem servicing so many drones. They even plan new drone airfields as you can see on the picture I posted above.

    Russia is huge and they will need them at all their borders and for operation abroad (Syria, Africa, south america maybe, Cuba to look on US naval bases).

    Production just started so it's limited. Once they speed up they will build 20-30 per month easily.

    IMO their cost will fall to under 1 million. That's the price of one missile, even less.

    They won't need to use 5000 drones but they will need reserve because they are easy targets.

    Yes, the picture of an airfield with a hangar for each drone. And a runaway. Can you imagine how many tens of billions of dollars it would take to make that for 10000 drones?

    Production has started, but each drone is assembled by hand. And they already have their hands full.

    So you are saying that it's cheaper than Kalibr?

    I'm willing to make a bet about the number of Orions in service in a couple of years. Say a number that you think, 5000, 3000, and let's get back to it in a couple of years.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:56 am

    In general there are few supersonic ATGM

    Shturm, Ataka, Krisantema, Pine/Sosna is dual purpose and Hermes.

    True, though I think highly armored targets would justify using an ATGM on them.

    Very few vehicles have highly armoured tops.

    You do realize that the letter 'E' in Kornet-E stands for export right? That's the figure for the weapons they would sell to U.S. client states like Jordan. Even now KBP Tula is in late development with the Hermes series, so you know where I'm going with this.

    The new Bulat missile is a scaled down smaller calibre Kornet, and both missiles are standard armament on their new BMP vehicles with a 57mm grenade launcher gun.

    The BMP-3 with Kornet is being made together with the Krisantema vehicle (MTLB).


    Other way around; it monitors the target zone to allow the operators to see where the salvo landed, and make corrections for the next salvo

    When first proposed ironically they were the only branch of the Russian military that actually used UAVs... the old Bumblebee.

    The purpose of the Smerch drone is to be able to launch it into an area that is not being monitored so it can look for targets for the battery to engage and also remain in the area to determine if the attack was effective or if another volley is needed to deal with the target.

    Can you imagine how many tens of billions of dollars it would take to make that for 10000 drones?

    He used some optimistic numbers, but the purpose of these drones is to be cheap and affordable... their value is not their purchase price though they are as cheap as some weapons... their value is that they cost a fraction of what it would cost to do the same job with a real war plane with escorts and pilots etc etc.

    I rather suspect that like their Israeli and US cousins that they will be popular on the export market... Russia has a lot of customers who probably can't afford Su-57s but still wants something to patrol their airspace and do some useful things... I would think drones could be used to create the equivalent of a useful and affordable airforce... hell even here in New Zealand a few 10,000km range drones would be useful for monitoring the enormous ocean around us... it could even fly down to our base in Antarctica if we need it.

    It could do all sorts of research with weather sampling and looking for lost ships and yachties...
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:37 am

    ult wrote:
    Isos wrote:They used to have thousands of fighters. There are no problem servicing so many drones. They even plan new drone airfields as you can see on the picture I posted above.

    Russia is huge and they will need them at all their borders and for operation abroad (Syria, Africa, south america maybe, Cuba to look on US naval bases).

    Production just started so it's limited. Once they speed up they will build 20-30 per month easily.

    IMO their cost will fall to under 1 million. That's the price of one missile, even less.

    They won't need to use 5000 drones but they will need reserve because they are easy targets.

    Yes, the picture of an airfield with a hangar for each drone. And a runaway. Can you imagine how many tens of billions of dollars it would take to make that for 10000 drones?

    Production has started, but each drone is assembled by hand. And they already have their hands full.

    So you are saying that it's cheaper than Kalibr?

    I'm willing to make a bet about the number of Orions in service in a couple of years. Say a number that you think, 5000, 3000, and let's get back to it in a couple of years.

    Drones can stay out in the open.

    They make them by hand because they were prototypes until now. Production line will be set up with machinery to make them in serial.

    Orion is the simpliest drone they could make to have it in great numbers. If you want better you need to switch for sirius or Altius or helios which are middle class drone. High end being S-70.

    Maybe 10000 is too much optimistic I must admit but the goal is to have a lot of them everywhere.

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    Post  Alex555 Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:47 pm

    0:48  drone-kamikaze

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    Post  ult Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:35 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Drones can stay out in the open.

    They make them by hand because they were prototypes until now. Production line will be set up with machinery to make them in serial.

    Orion is the simpliest drone they could make to have it in great numbers. If you want better you need to switch for sirius or Altius or helios which are middle class drone. High end being S-70.

    Maybe 10000 is too much optimistic I must admit but the goal is to have a lot of them everywhere.


    US has produced 360 RQ-1's. Which is a full analogue to the Orion. MQ-9 is also in a couple hundreds.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:48 pm


    Orion has pretty slim range (250km)

    They should really do something about it down the road
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:05 pm

    ult wrote:

    US has produced 360 RQ-1's. Which is a full analogue to the Orion. MQ-9 is also in a couple hundreds.

    Drone use will increase. Number will also increase.

    Orion has pretty slim range (250km)

    They should really do something about it down the road

    Datalink from ground can't go further. All the drones witout satellite link have this issue. You can solve this by using repeaters every hundred of km but it will still be limited to 250km inside enemy territory.

    Sirius and helios have sat abtenna and will go further away.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:49 pm

    "Isos"
    Orion has pretty slim range (250km)

    They should really do something about it down the road

    Datalink from ground can't go further. All the drones witout satellite link have this issue. You can solve this by using repeaters every hundred of km but it will still be limited to 250km inside enemy territory.

    Sirius and helios have sat abtenna and will go further away.

    Well there's an idea for upgrade, satellite link can't cost too much
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    Post  kvs Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:06 pm

    It is a smaller analogue of the US model. They should have enough experience now to get a better version out.
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:26 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    "Isos"
    Orion has pretty slim range (250km)

    They should really do something about it down the road

    Datalink from ground can't go further. All the drones witout satellite link have this issue. You can solve this by using repeaters every hundred of km but it will still be limited to 250km inside enemy territory.

    Sirius and helios have sat abtenna and will go further away.

    Well there's an idea for upgrade, satellite link can't cost too much

    The upgrade is Sirius/Helios.

    Orion will keep being cheap to be used in low intensity conflict like in Syria where they don't need to use it more than 250km away from ground station and obove the frontline of conventional wars.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:22 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Orion has pretty slim range (250km)

    They should really do something about it down the road

    Well the max speed is 200km/h and with a 24 hour endurance. I think their main design goal is to have a relatively small area (like a city) covered for surveillance (with the option to engage if necessary), with rotating shifts of drones and operators. They didn't make it's stats to crazy to keep the costs down for procurement. As having expensive UCAV's is a contradiction of it's purpose.

    With that being said, SuperOx and their electric engines could greatly increase their range, like a 4 fold increase, and best thing is they'll be cheaper than standard engines (up to 10x).

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t2824p575-ew-technologies-and-innovation-development-in-russia#267343

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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:43 am

    Well there's an idea for upgrade, satellite link can't cost too much

    Satellite Datalinks are not cheap... the equivalent of a satellite phone being run continuously during the flight will tie up a satellite channel... most go for line of sight datalinks as being rather more efficient... if you want a 10,000km range UAV to scan the oceans around you then satellite datalink could be an option but not continuous... more like compressed burst transmission every half hour or so, which means people monitoring water ways will have a up to a 30 minute delay before they get the video feed... other ships or when close to land it could use a normal datalink and pass the signal so you get it in more real time, but obviously in an emergency or on search and rescue you could turn it on to live feed.

    With a laser range finder and GPS all video feed will be linked to the location it is being taken so you might spot a boat in trouble and be able to send help assuming it has not sunk in the mean time...

    With that being said, SuperOx and their electric engines could greatly increase their range, like a 4 fold increase, and best thing is they'll be cheaper than standard engines (up to 10x).

    Not to mention being electric they will be silent so at night you could descend and take a closer view of things and likely not be noticed...

    A 250km circle range is rather good, you could add boosters to extend the range or shift the place where it can operate to a more useful location over enemy territory... the platform boosting and repeating the signal could do the same for other unmanned platforms in the air and on the ground and indeed improve radio communications to friendly forces in the area allowing special forces to use much lower power signals that are less likely to be detected by the enemy...

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    Post  George1 Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:01 pm

    There was also an UAV project "Gonshchik" by MiG. Do we have any info on that? Question
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    Post  ult Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:19 pm

    kvs wrote:It is a smaller analogue of the US model.   They should have enough experience now to get a better version out.  

    MQ-1 Predator is:
    Length: 27 ft 0 in (8.23 m)
    Wingspan: 48 ft 7 in (14.8 m)
    Height: 6 ft 11 in (2.1 m)
    Gross weight: 2,249 lb (1,020 kg)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-1_Predator

    Orion is:
    Length: 8 m
    Wingspan: 16,3 m
    Height: 3,2 m
    Gross weight: 1000 kg

    https://kronshtadt.ru/en/products/bespilotnyij-kompleks-orion

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    Post  LMFS Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:40 am

    Very interesting about the Molniya:

    Source: jet drones working in a flock are being created for the VKS

    MOSCOW, 1 Mar-RIA Novosti. The multi-purpose unmanned complex "Molniya", whose jet vehicles will be launched by a swarm from a carrier aircraft, is being developed in the interests of:Air and space forces Russia, a source in the military-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "Company "Kronshtadthas initiatively prepared a draft design of the Molniya multi-purpose unmanned group-use complex. Drones of this system will be launched in a flock from a carrier aircraft, for example, to break through enemy air defenses or conduct group electronic warfare together with manned aircraft. It is also planned to use the devices of the complex as separate high-precision guided ammunition or target designator scouts, " the source said.
    Development work on the project should begin in the near future, the source said.
    The basis of the complex will be small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) made in the form factor of a cruise missile-with an elongated fuselage, a jet engine and a folding wing. "The devices can be used from various carriers - combat and military transport aircraft of the aerospace forces, from external and internal suspensions, including from cargo bays. The su-57,in particular, will be able to carry up to eight such vehicles in the fuselage compartments. They can also be carried by a Hunter drone, " he explained.

    According to the source, the Kronstadt company has determined the preliminary tactical and technical characteristics of the Molniya complex vehicles, " however, they can be adjusted within the framework of the ROC." "So far, it is planned that one device of the system will have a length of 1.5 meters and a wing span of up to 1.2 meters. The speed of the vehicle equipped with a turbojet engine is stated at 600-700 kilometers per hour, the estimated mass of the warhead or payload is about five to seven kilograms. The range of the drone will be several hundred kilometers, " he said.
    The drones will use stealth technologies that reduce their radar and thermal visibility, including a special coating, a flat nozzle and an air intake located on the upper part of the fuselage.
    The company "Kronshtadt" did not comment on the information provided by the source to RIA Novosti.
    A mock-up of the device from the Molniya complex was demonstrated last Friday during a visit by the Minister of defenseSergei Shoigu plant of the company "Kronstadt".

    Our answer to the Gremlins"
    Denis Fedutinov, a leading Russian expert in the field of unmanned aircraft, told RIA Novosti that the Molniya system, which is focused on the concept of swarming, is in some way a Russian response to the American Gremlins program.
    "This concept implies the simultaneous use of a group consisting of many unmanned vehicles with different target loads on Board – reconnaissance, shock, electronic warfare, etc. - each of which solves its own part of the overall task," the expert noted.
    He explained that the greatest effectiveness of the actions of such a group will be provided by interaction between the drones that are part of it with automatic distribution of tasks in a rapidly changing environment, including reconfiguration when the composition changes due to the addition or removal of individual vehicles.
    A radical increase in the number of UAVs in the group will allow, for example, to effectively combat enemy air defense systems by saturating the airspace with so many targets that exceed the capabilities of a one-time fight against them. "This, in turn, will save more valuable assets, such as manned aircraft, as well as advanced and expensive UAVs for other tasks," the expert believes.
    In addition, the expert noted, the use of a swarm can become a cheap way to successfully perform many types of combat missions, including suppressing enemy artillery, counterterrorism operations, and so on. The viability of such an approach, according to Fedutinov, can be ensured by reducing the cost of individual UAVs that make up the group, which will make it possible to produce UAVs in thousands of units as expendable assets without too much burden of costs.

    https://ria.ru/20210301/bespilotniki-1599368302.html

    If the ukies think UAVs are going to be the solution to their problems, they are going to love Molniya Laughing

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