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    PAK-DΑ: News #2

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:33 pm

    Mir wrote:

    Well there was a lot of politics involved between the different OKB's. At the time Mikoyan and Tupelov was heavily favoured above Sukhoi and Myasishchev. In fact much of what eventually became the Tu-160 was actually a Myasishchev design. Not to mention all the great things Sukhoi achieved!

    This thing was kind of notorious for a whole Soviet time I would say, and influenced all spheres.
    The very same situation was with Kalashnikov, who was struggling with more "prestigious" construction bureaus for years, and actually could do that only by the accidental support of a high-ranking official who wanted to gain some "points" for his local struggles.
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    Post  Mir Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:33 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    This thing was kind of notorious for a whole Soviet time I would say, and influenced all spheres.
    The very same situation was with Kalashnikov, who was struggling with more "prestigious" construction bureaus for years, and actually could do that only by the accidental support of a high-ranking official who wanted to gain some "points" for his local struggles.

    Follow the Party line - otherwise you're getting "cancelled'. Mind you it sounds just like the woke brigade! Cool

    In the Capitalist World things were/are just as bad, but it was more of a "cutthroat" thing. More business like Laughing

    So many US/British and European aero industries disappeared over the years.
    Just to mention a few in the US >> Convair, Grumman (now Northrop/Grumman), Huges, North American and Republic.
    Even Canada had a fairly solid industry - all basically gone.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:35 pm

    Yeah, nobody said that this situation is a sole Soviet issue, right? Laughing

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    Post  thegopnik Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:41 am

    Sukhoi needs to back the **** off, introduce mig-35s go **** Mikoyan over with the LTS project which offers stealth and a cheaper price. Introduce Su-70s that are like 10 million something dollars with a little bigger size than the F-117 with better stealth and far range distance flight potentially fucking Tupolev over for the PAK-DA project. A subsonic stealth bomber is so mainstream(I lost interest the moment it was announced not being supersonic) I want an aircraft to change aerial warfare like a hypersonic interceptor. I dont want Mig-31s and Tu-160s to be the peak design and the last things Tupolev and Mikoyan to be known for designing.

    Competition is always great but its no fun when one aviation industry rapes both.
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    Post  Mir Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:04 am

    The S-70 (as is) can not be a replacement for the PAK-DA. It will need to be much larger with 2-4 engines which should then give it the required range.
    The Mig-35 is great and all that, but it is yesterday's tech. The Su-75 will be a worthy replacement if Mikoyan fails to deliver on a new light fighter design, but Mig should be working on a Mig-41 prototype to replace the Mig-31's - hopefully we will see it soon. Will it be hypersonic? I doubt it - esp if you want something to perform CAP. A cheaper and more logical way is hypersonic air-air-missiles.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:28 pm

    Those self defense missiles are indeed a great development and would go a long way in protecting the PAK-DA's. The number of defensive missiles and their range might have some limitations though?

    They have shown designs of vertical tubes for aircraft launching weapons... such a grid array of launchers would be perfect for an aircraft with a large upper surface like a flying wing type bomber... and their shorter range would allow them to be smaller which would also mean they could be carried in much greater numbers than if they had greater range.

    Having dorsal mounted missile launchers would leave the weapon bays free for ordinance... in the same way those wing mounted weapon bays on the Su-57 allow two self defence missiles be carried while leaving the two main weapon bays free for other ordinance like longer ranged AAMs or air to ground weapons.

    My hope is that they would come up with a similar design philosophy that was employed by Sukhoi with their Su-57. Its a fine balance between stealth, speed and maneuverability.

    The difference here is that manouverability is not so important, and speed is not really that important either... but low drag can be related to stealth and flight range and payload capacity would be important for a PAK DA.

    If they can balance out all the compromises in the PAK-DA design it should be great, but it will be an enormous challenge to get it right.

    Serial production of the Blackjack means they can take longer to get it right and could look at more upcoming technologies we have no idea about to add to the design further down the track.

    A subsonic stealth bomber is so mainstream(I lost interest the moment it was announced not being supersonic) I want an aircraft to change aerial warfare like a hypersonic interceptor. I dont want Mig-31s and Tu-160s to be the peak design and the last things Tupolev and Mikoyan to be known for designing.

    They have a supersonic bomber... they are the only ones to develop a practical supersonic strategic bomber... except it is a cruise missile carrier of course...

    But a flying wing optimises flight performance minimises drag and makes stealth easier and more natural to achieve, and if they do it properly its flight range will be excellent and its weapon capacity should be very good making it an affordable and very capable platform.

    Well there was a lot of politics involved between the different OKB's. At the time Mikoyan and Tupelov was heavily favoured above Sukhoi and Myasishchev. In fact much of what eventually became the Tu-160 was actually a Myasishchev design. Not to mention all the great things Sukhoi achieved!

    And also what Sukhoi didn't achieve... wasn't their T-4 mach 3 bomber design handed to Tupolev, who poured cold water on the idea (because even at the time mach 3 bombers would not have been safe, but would have burned fuel like nobodies business... making them very expensive to operate).

    Fast bombers sound like a good idea till you look at the design compromises you need to make to allow them to be low drag enough and of course all the engine power needed to achieve that sort of performance cuts into payload capacity and fuel capacity.

    The Mig-35 is great and all that, but it is yesterday's tech.

    I think it will be a good stepping aircraft for their new 5th gen light fighter they have been working on, and the new tech they put in their new 5th gen fighter can improve the performance of the MiG-35s they put into service... things like 5th gen engines in the RD-33 size and weight class with perhaps 12 tons of thrust instead of 9 tons they currently produce.

    With the US putting F-15s and potentially F-16s back in to production why would you be concerned about yesterdays tech... the MiG-35 aerodynamically is still a good platform... as is the new Flanker models with small refinements and new engines they will remain formidable opponents for some time.

    but Mig should be working on a Mig-41 prototype to replace the Mig-31's - hopefully we will see it soon. Will it be hypersonic? I doubt it - esp if you want something to perform CAP. A cheaper and more logical way is hypersonic air-air-missiles.

    The MiG-31 is and the MiG-41 will be a pure interceptor so speed is a very important component... the faster you can fly the further away from its targets you can intercept a threat aircraft or missile.... I suspect they will be aiming for Mach 4-4.5 flight speed, which will extend the flight range of any missile it happens to launch, and should allow operations at much higher altitudes which will also extend weapon range... the MiG-25RB could drop bombs using an early version of the Gefest & T system... they had special heat resistant FAB bombs and fuses made for them... perhaps a Mach 4 bomber that could release its bombs several hundred kms away from its target from very high altitude out of reach of most interceptors and long range SAMs...

    S-350, S-400, S-500 based air to air missiles would be another interesting feature... the 60km range and 150km range S-350 9M96 missiles are ARH and already are small and compact without lots of high drag wings and fins... for internal weapons bays and launched from 30km altitude at mach 4 who knows how that would effect their max effective range... S-500 will be a substantial missile so the energy its rocket motor would need to use to get off the ground and accelerated to high speed and high altitude would be enormous... launching it from high altitude and high flight speed would increase its performance spectacularly against air and space based targets too...
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    Post  Mir Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The difference here is that manouverability is not so important, and speed is not really that important either...

    That sounds exactly like a Northrop/Grumman pitch.

    GarryB wrote:
    And also what Sukhoi didn't achieve... wasn't their T-4 mach 3 bomber design handed to Tupolev, who poured cold water on the idea (because even at the time mach 3 bombers would not have been safe, but would have burned fuel like nobodies business... making them very expensive to operate).

    I think you are confusing it with the Myasishchev design that eventually became the Tu-160? The Sukhoi T-4 was an expensive project and was cancelled. It was however a superb design and had the distinction of being the very first fly-by-wire aircraft in the world.

    GarryB wrote: perhaps a Mach 4 bomber that could release its bombs several hundred kms away from its target from very high altitude out of reach of most interceptors and long range SAMs...

    Thought you said speed is not that important for a bomber scratch

    GarryB wrote:S-350, S-400, S-500 based air to air missiles would be another interesting feature...

    ...and exactly how many S-500's would a PAK-DA have for self-defense purposes?
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:02 pm

    That sounds exactly like a Northrop/Grumman pitch.

    No... an American pitch would be stealth is critical and worth spending trillions on it to make it as profitable.... oops stealthy as possible.

    Manouverability is of little use to a bomber, but range and payload is important... it is not like any strategic range bomber is going to be dodging bullets and missiles except in the broadest sense by launching missiles 5,000km plus away from your targets.

    I think you are confusing it with the Myasishchev design that eventually became the Tu-160? The Sukhoi T-4 was an expensive project and was cancelled. It was however a superb design and had the distinction of being the very first fly-by-wire aircraft in the world.

    Wasn't it a mach 3 theatre bomber that Tupolev was supposed to make but they ended up making the Tu-22M instead.

    Thought you said speed is not that important for a bomber

    It would not be worth making a pure bomber mach 4 capable, but this is an interceptor with 3-5 thousand kms likely range and internal weapons capacity for large long range air to air missiles... which would make it suitable to adapt for theatre bombing roles... but mach 4 would be totally impractical for a strategic bomber.

    To make it a 3K km range mach 4 interceptor and decent number of rather large AAMs carries internally needs a Tu-22M3 sized aircraft... 100-120 tons... make it subsonic and you would triple the range and get a much more practical strategic bomber.

    Speed can be useful but they already have the Blackjack.

    Technically the MiG-31BM has air to surface capability anyway, and of course the MiG-25RB...


    ...and exactly how many S-500's would a PAK-DA have for self-defense purposes?

    Hey... by 2035 they might be using short range attack missiles to defeat surface (SAM) and air (interceptor) targets with nuclear weapons, so why wouldn't they need missiles to disable satellites or very high flying very fast interceptors...
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    Post  Mir Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Wasn't it a mach 3 theatre bomber that Tupolev was supposed to make but they ended up making the Tu-22M instead.

    Not really - The subsonic Tu-16 was produced in large number (1600+) but needed to be replaced by a supersonic bomber. That bomber was meant to be the Tu-22, but it turned out to be a bit of a disappointment which meant not that many were produced. Tupelov then decided to attempt an upgrade of the Tu-22 and various modifications and models were proposed. These were actual modifications of the Tu-22 design all were supersonic designs. Here is is just two of many examples - the Model 106 and 106K >>
    PAK-DΑ: News #2 - Page 16 Tu106-10

    All these designs did not go anywhere and Tupelov realized he had to design a completely new concept, but he had to fool the leadership into thinking that it was still a modification of the Tu-22. It worked and the rest is history.

    The T-4 design from Sukhoi was a Mach 3 missile carrier, and way ahead of its time, but as I've said it was very expensive (complete titanium airframe). Tupelov on the other hand was more conservative in his design approach and he did not like Sukhoi getting a foothold in the bomber business. Since then the tide has turned somewhat for the Sukhoi OKB with some superb results.

    Well the Soviet era is gone and there are new thinkers and designers in the Tupolev OKB. It does appear that the final product will be a flying wing design and is likely to make an appearance within the next year or so. Interesting times ahead and I do hope that at least it will be able to outrun the F-35. Laughing
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:22 am

    My understanding was that the T-4 got the go ahead but Tupolev used his influence and power to "suggest" Sukhoi didn't have the experience to make a mach 3 bomber... and he objected to making it Mach 3 and the Tu-22M was his mach 2 alternative... his argument was by reducing the threshold from mach 3 to mach 2 made the design much easier and you could use much cheaper more conventional materials and engines and the fuel burn during peace time would be much lower...

    And in practical terms a target moving at mach 3 wasn't that much safer than a target moving at mach 2... both would have to fly high to reach those speeds and high flying bombers can't make it through IADS even in the 70s they knew that... that is why the American Valkyrie bomber didn't go anywhere either.


    Well the Soviet era is gone and there are new thinkers and designers in the Tupolev OKB. It does appear that the final product will be a flying wing design and is likely to make an appearance within the next year or so. Interesting times ahead and I do hope that at least it will be able to outrun the F-35.

    Sadly political power has as much influence over what got built and what didn't if not more than with aircraft performance and quality... during the cold war Tupolev and MiG were very powerful companies with a lot of influence, but when the cold war ended in many ways as a reaction to that things flipped and Sukhoi became the golden boy who could do no wrong.

    Part of that was the Su-27 and the MiG-29 being seen as being essentially the same but with the Su-27 being bigger and better in every way, and as numbers were being cut it seemed a good idea to keep the bigger plane that carries more missiles and flys twice as far with the bigger radar an bigger IRST... but unfortunately in a sense that is the equivalent of firing 90 percent of your police officers and giving the remaining officers sniper rifles... they might technically cover the same area but fewer aircraft can deal with fewer situations... just because one Flanker has twice the range of a Fulcrum does not mean the Flanker can cover twice the area that a Fulcrum does.

    The PAK DA is going to be smaller than a Bear I suspect but should have better range and probably better payload and obviously be much harder to see visually and electronically, and it will likely be bigger than a Tu-22M3.

    If they don't try to make it stupidly stealthy, like 0.0000000000000000001 sq metre RCS then it should be relatively affordable... the operational costs for Checkmate suggest their stealthy materials are not high maintenance... and the advantage of a very big plane is avionics bays where you can have internal access to the electronics and systems so you don't need external access panels like you would with an F-35 for instance. No sanding down RAM and removing tape from joins and screws to open the panel to inspect and then having to tape up and respray the RAM coatings and let them cure before you can fly again.

    Stealth does not mean it has to be expensive to buy or to operate, but it wont be cheap... at least it seems versatile.
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    Post  Mir Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:40 am

    GarryB wrote:My understanding was that the T-4 got the go ahead but Tupolev used his influence and power to "suggest" Sukhoi didn't have the experience to make a mach 3 bomber... and he objected to making it Mach 3 and the Tu-22M was his mach 2 alternative... his argument was by reducing the threshold from mach 3 to mach 2 made the design much easier and you could use much cheaper more conventional materials and engines and the fuel burn during peace time would be much lower...

    What a load of bull - don't know where you got that idea from!? Laughing Laughing

    The sole reason for the T-4's development was pure Soviet pride. They wanted to show the US they can also do a Soviet "Valkyrie". The Tu-22M had nothing to do with that program at all!

    "By reducing the threshold from Mach 3 to Mach 2" as you say - would not exactly be a Soviet "Valkyrie" at all!   Embarassed  Embarassed  Laughing

    According to Russian sources the PAK-DA prototype was started in 2020 and judging by a patent drawing that was posted earlier it will not follow the US blue print of a flying wing concept. I'm sure they will deliver some interesting aerodynamic solutions.

    PAK-DΑ: News #2 - Page 16 15840810

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    Post  Arrow Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:27 pm

    ccording to Russian sources the PAK-DA prototype was started in 2020 and judging by a patent drawing that was posted earlier it will not follow the US blue print of a flying wing concept. I'm sure they will deliver some interesting aerodynamic solutions. wrote:

    We will have to wait a little longer for the first prototype to fly. It will be a very interesting event.
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    Post  thegopnik Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:01 pm

    This is what the PAK-DA is suppose to look like if anyone wants me to be interested in the bomber.

    PAK-DΑ: News #2 - Page 16 16604510
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:12 pm

    thegopnik wrote:This is what the PAK-DA is suppose to look like if anyone wants me to be interested in the bomber.
    https://i.servimg.com/u/f14/20/10/81/30/16604510.png

    Looks like you won't be interested, they already confirmed it will be subsonic flying wing
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:32 am

    judging by a patent drawing that was posted earlier it will not follow the US blue print of a flying wing concept. I'm sure they will deliver some interesting aerodynamic solutions.

    The Russians have no problem copying good ideas when they meet their requirements or needs, or time is an issue, but in this case time is not an issue and their needs are different from the requirements for the B-2... stealth and low drag and long range are all the same, but internal carriage of rather large long range missiles to allow standoff attacks against strategic targets means different solutions might be used.

    This is what the PAK-DA is suppose to look like if anyone wants me to be interested in the bomber.

    Not sure which artist came up with that, but exposed engine nozzles and winglets are not exactly stealthy.

    Imagine a forward swept wing flying wing design where winglets are not needed because spanwise flow move inwards to the wing centre instead of out and over the wingtips creating vortex drag.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:43 am

    TASS
    October 3, 02:10

    In the Russian Federation, tests of an ejection seat for a promising bomber PAK DA began

    Sergey Pozdnyakov, General Director of the Zvezda Research and Production Enterprise, explained that these are, among other things, tests for mechanical impact

    MOSCOW, 3 October. /TASS/. An ejection seat for a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA) began to be tested. This was announced in an interview with TASS by the general director of the Zvezda Research and Production Enterprise Sergey Pozdnyakov.

    "We are almost on schedule. Testing is just beginning," Pozdnyakov said in response to a question whether tests of the PAK DA seat have begun.
    According to the general director of the enterprise, these will be climatic, resource tests, as well as tests for mechanical impact.

    In July last year, Pozdnyakov told TASS that an ejection seat for a promising long-range aviation complex would be delivered to the developer, PJSC Tupolev (part of the UAC), in the next two years. At that time, a test chair was being created.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/15935851

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