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    New START Treaty

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:27 pm

    Arrow wrote:What systems exactly are they talking about?  Stopping a nuclear attack, even massaged with conventional ballistic missiles, seems impossible for now.

    Plasma fields used for aerodynamic purposes

    As for the technologies of detecting submarines from satellites. Is it about LIDAR technologies? It is said that China and the USA are carrying out advanced work on this. Maybe the Russian idea is based on other solutions?

    I believe it is radar, they can detect the trails of the subs even when very minimal. But don't take my word for it, I have not researched that enough.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:39 am

    Doesn't start limit the entire use of nuclear warheads, meaning the IRBM's can't be nuclear?

    No.

    SALT was Strategic Arms Limitations Treaty.... in other words... stop making more, there are too many now.

    START was Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty... in other words 10,000 nuclear warheads in ICBMs and SLBMs and Cruise missiles on Strategic Bombers is too many... reduce. START II got down to 6,000 warheads each and New START reduced that to just over 1,500 each but it only counts ICBMs, SLBMs, and Cruise missiles carried in long range bombers.

    Intermediate range cruise missiles and intermediate range ballistic missiles is a separate category.

    New START does not include tactical nukes either.

    The loss of the INF treaty has created a serious gap, but I hope they don't bother fixing it... it counters the UK and France for Russia and China for the US not being in START.

    The Russians can point their IRBM/IRCMs at US bases in Europe and the US can point its IRBMs and IRCMs at the Russian Far East from Japan and South Korea and Alaska, but that is not a serious problem for either really.

    First it was 5.000km, was changed to 5.500km because the Pioneer-UTTH could reach that range.

    Indeed, but shows an obvious loophole... if Russia wanted to it could have created a 3 ton ground launched cruise missile with a range of 6,000km and called it a strategic weapon... would be cheaper than an ICBM and could be used to attack targets in Europe and would not be effected by the INF treaty because its range exceeds the specification.

    But they didn't because the US could do the same and render the INF treaty useless.

    If Russia had the obligation to get China as a 3rd party to START, then the US has an obligation to get France and the UK
    to submit as well.

    Why not Israel and Pakistan and India as well?

    I believe it is radar, they can detect the trails of the subs even when very minimal. But don't take my word for it, I have not researched that enough.

    There is talk that radar can detect the small rise in sea level above a submerged submarine as it passes, and there is a trail an IR system can detect where water from different depths is churned up by the passing of a submerged submarine stirring up different temperature water from different depths in its wake... forming a pattern that can be seen from space.

    In combination with Sonar sensors on the sea bed and other assets around the place all that information can be combined to keep a general track of known sub positions.

    Wont be perfect but should be very useful...

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:12 pm

    The west would never admit that Israel has nuclear weapons but would insist that Iran takes part in the talks.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:23 pm

    This is good:

    https://www.rt.com/russia/513816-new-start-treaty-warning/

    A day after Moscow and Washington agreed on a long-awaited extension to the New START nuclear arms reduction treaty, a senior Russian diplomat has warned that the deal may not hold up if the US acts improperly.

    Speaking to journalists on Wednesday, Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov warned Washington against any “destructive action” or attempts to “undermine Russia’s national security,” noting that it could lead to Moscow deciding on “withdrawal from the treaty.”

    Sounds like they are prepared to take a tougher line for a change... of course they know they have the upper hand in terms of dooms day technology.

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    Post  Arrow Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:12 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    Plasma fields used for aerodynamic purposes


    Wow sounds a little fantastic. Maybe you have links to some studies on this technology ? Shocked


    I just found something like this
    Their action is based on focusing beams of electromagnetic energy produced by laser or microwave radiation into the upper layers of the atmosphere….A cloud of highly ionized air arises at the focus of the laser or microwave rays, at an altitude of up to 50 kilometers. Upon entering it, any object--a missile, an airplane, is deflected from its trajectory and disintegrates in response to the fantastic overloads arising due to the abrupt pressure difference …What is fundamental in this case is that the energy aimed by the terrestrial components of the plasma weapon--lasers and antennas--is concentrated not at the target itself but a little ahead of it. Rather than "incinerating" the missile or airplane, it "bumps" it out of trajectory. wrote:


    believe it is radar, they can detect the trails of the subs even when very minimal. But don't take my word for it, I have not researched that enough. wrote:

    https://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/detection.pdf . It's an old article but quite interesting.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:31 am

    Their action is based on focusing beams of electromagnetic energy produced by laser or microwave radiation into the upper layers of the atmosphere….A cloud of highly ionized air arises at the focus of the laser or microwave rays, at an altitude of up to 50 kilometers.

    That sounds like rubbish... ionised air is not any thicker or "harder" than ordinary air so whether the air is ionised or not is irrelevant... the upper layers of the atmosphere are incredibly thin and the microwave energy from any beam weapon on earth would be nothing compared with the enormous microwave radiation coming every second from the sun....

    I mean suggesting this will work is like saying an ICBM launch from the US to Russia or vice versa will always fail because it will be day in one place and night in the other so as the missiles pass through the line of day and night it will suddenly hit a wall of sun heated and ionised air rising up from the ground or sea surface, or it will move from the sun heated and ionised air to freezing cold night air and will be destroyed...

    Bollocks.

    The amount of energy needed to upset enough air and heat it to make it rise would be the equivalent of an earthquake, or effectively thousands of nuclear bombs going off at once.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:48 am

    At 30 km the air pressure is 1% of surface pressure and the density is about the same since both fall off exponentially with height
    with the same temperature dependent e-folding "constant". Ionizing this air may be good for EM interference but it has no
    physical impact of substance in terms of direct ion attack. In terms of any density variation, there is none by definition since
    both positive and negative ions result in from any ionization and have equal total charges per unit volume.

    If by magic only a single-sign charge plasma was produce it would disperse the air density in seconds. Any object going through
    this low density layer would not be "shocked" into debris, it would experience less drag. When it re-enters the denser layer below
    it would not hit a brick wall because

    1) no step function in height ionization is possible thanks to rapid mixing process and diffusion of the ionizing radiation (laser, etc.)

    2) it's not like an object going through the magical evacuated later above will gain an enormous MACH value, it will just
    accelerate marginally from having less drag and being pulled by gravity.

    Again, no real change in density is possible through ionization. It is heating of the gas that affects the density. A weapon
    like this is lame since it needs numerous nuclear bomb levels of energy for an impact that will only change the air drag on the
    target.

    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:22 pm

    Putin signs bill on extending New START into law


    According to the Kremlin press service, the federal law enters into force on the day of its official publication

    MOSCOW, January 29. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed into a law a bill extending the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (New START) until February 5, 2026, the Kremlin press service said in a statement published on its website.

    "The federal law ratifies the agreement on extending the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty between the Russian Federation and the United States, dated April 8, 2010, which Russia and the US made on January 26, 2021, through an exchange of notes," the statement reads.

    According to the Kremlin press service, the federal law enters into force on the day of its official publication.

    "The extension of the treaty is in line with Russia’s national interests as it makes it possible to maintain transparency and predictability in strategic relations between Russia and the US and preserve global strategic stability. Besides, it will have a positive effect on the international situation, contributing to the nuclear disarmament process," the statement adds.

    New START, which was signed in 2010 and came into force in 2011, limits Russia and the US to no more than 700 deployed intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM), submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM) and strategic bombers, no more than 1,550 deployed warheads and 800 deployed and non-deployed launchers.

    Moscow repeatedly urged Washington not to delay a decision on extending the treaty, which was set to expire on February 5, 2021. However, the Trump administration was reluctant to extend the treaty and insisted on expanding it to include China, but Beijing rejected the idea.

    Joe Biden administration took a different position. White House press secretary Jen Psaki said at a briefing on January 22 that the US authorities sought to extend the treaty for five years.

    On January 26, Moscow and Washington exchanged notes on extending New START. Presidents Vladimir Putin of Russia and Joseph Biden of the United States welcomed the move in a telephone call. On the same day, Putin submitted a bill on extending New START for five years to the State Duma (the lower house of parliament).

    https://tass.com/politics/1250613

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    Post  Arrow Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:56 am

    So what do you think the Plasma field is supposed to work against against ballistic weapons and aerodynamic targets ? Rolling Eyes
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    Post  TMA1 Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:56 pm

    you guys talking about that plasma shield used supposedly against inflatable countermeasures?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:40 am

    So what do you think the Plasma field is supposed to work against against ballistic weapons and aerodynamic targets ?

    I am no expert but plasma is material heated to tens of thousands of degrees and is a state of matter like solid, liquid and gas.. plasma... and depending on the material the different states are temperature related.

    Ballistic weapons like ICBMs moving at mach 25 plus reentering the atmosphere over the target will be heated up to very high temperatures themselves without any directed energy weapon beam needed.

    Sounds like psuedo science desperate for funding...

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    Post  Arrow Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:46 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Sounds like psuedo science desperate for funding...

    I agree. That's why I don't know what Mindstorm is talking about with this statement

    - Complete the R&D programs for the new strategic air-space defense systems based on previously not capitalised physical phenomenons (by several specialist assessments this will enormously depreciate, if not render almost irrelevant by the second half of this century, today arsenal of nuclear weapons with classical ballistic vectors). wrote:


    Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:18 pm

    Perhaps this is a weapon system based on secret physical principles and the "plasma shield" is intended to shield the true nature of the project.
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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:03 pm

    https://www.mid.ru/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/4551078

    Statement of the Russian Foreign Ministry on the Extension of the START Treaty



    On February 3, the Russian Foreign Ministry exchanged notes with the US Embassy on the completion of internal procedures necessary for the entry into force of the agreement on the extension of the Treaty on Measures for the Further Reduction and Limitation of Strategic Offensive Arms of April 8, 2010 (START). Accordingly, this agreement entered into force on the same day. Thus, the Treaty will operate in the form as it was signed, without any changes or additions, until February 5, 2026. The telephone conversation between President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin and US President J. Biden on January 26 this year.

    This ensured the preservation and further functioning of the core mechanism for maintaining strategic stability, on a strictly parity basis limiting the nuclear missile arsenals of the parties. Taking into account the special responsibility of Russia and the United States as the largest nuclear powers, an important decision was made that guarantees the necessary level of predictability and transparency in this area, while strictly observing the balance of interests.

    We hope that the understanding reached with Washington regarding the fate of the treaty, which is cornerstone for international security, will help overcome the tendency that has prevailed in recent years as a result of the destructive US policy toward breaking arms control and nonproliferation mechanisms. Significant efforts will be required to return the Russian-American dialogue in this area to a stable trajectory, to achieve new major results that strengthen our national security and strategic stability in the world.

    Russia is ready for such work. We call on the United States to show an equally responsible approach and respond constructively to our respective initiatives.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:38 pm

    US notified by Russia of steps to prolong New START

    Washington hopes that the treaty will be extended soon, US Ambassador to Moscow John Sullivan said

    MOSCOW, February 3. /TASS/. The US has been notified by Russia of the procedures held to prolong the New Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (New START), and Washington hopes that this process will be concluded soon, US Ambassador to Moscow John Sullivan said on Wednesday.

    "Yes," he said, answering a corresponding question.

    "We continue to make progress in the steps that are necessary to extend the treaty, which is the intent of both sides. My expectation is that that will be accomplished very soon," he stated.

    On January 26, Moscow and Washington exchanged diplomatic notes on an agreement to extend New START. In a telephone conversation on the same day, Russian and US presidents, Vladimir Putin and Joe Biden, expressed satisfaction over this fact. Later in the day, the Russian president submitted to the State Duma (lower parliament house) a bill on the ratification of the agreement on five-year extension of New START, until February 5, 2026.

    The bill was signed into law on January 29. According to the Kremlin press service, the extension of the treaty is in Russia’s national interests as it makes it possible to ensure transparency and predictability in strategic relations between Russia and the United States and maintain strategic stability in the world.

    https://tass.com/politics/1252257

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:23 pm

    START has been renewed, a good thing, maybe the only one, we could expect from Bribem thumbsup
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    Post  Arrow Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:27 pm

    LMFS wrote:START has been renewed, a good thing, maybe the only one, we could expect from Bribem thumbsup

    Russia should not sign any treaties with the US. The United States does not obey them. Before they left ABM, they were breaking this treaty, and so was the INF. It is Russia that has the advantage in strategic and tactical nuclear ballistic missiles.
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    Post  kvs Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:19 am

    LMFS wrote:START has been renewed, a good thing, maybe the only one, we could expect from Bribem thumbsup

    The clown and his handlers had no choice. They are not in any position to get a better deal out of Russia. Clearly they
    are hoping to keep the Russian ICBM arsenal restrained while they come up with a fix for their flopped ABM shield.

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    Post  LMFS Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:11 pm

    kvs wrote:The clown and his handlers had no choice.   They are not in any position to get a better deal out of Russia.   Clearly they
    are hoping to keep the Russian ICBM arsenal restrained while they come up with a fix for their flopped ABM shield.

    Certainly, still this is another match where Russia wins. Five years more for the West to rot and the East to raise means that, by the time they realise, they will not be realistically able to threaten Russia anymore, god willing.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:18 am

    Russia should not sign any treaties with the US. The United States does not obey them. Before they left ABM, they were breaking this treaty, and so was the INF. It is Russia that has the advantage in strategic and tactical nuclear ballistic missiles.

    The agreement has verification mechanisms that were useful and give Russia an ability to inspect things in the US they could not if the treaty was not in force.

    Even if they do cheat this treaty is really pretty much obsolete now with Russia having new weapons coming in to service that are not covered by it.

    When Russia has a few more breeder reactors on line their ability to make nuclear weapon grade material will massively transform for the better...
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    Post  Arrow Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:44 am

    https://twitter.com/M_S_Billingslea/status/1365663287707398144

    Russia should never cancel Poseidon and Burevestnik. You can see how much pain they cause in the US, even though they are not in service yet. Laughing Laughing

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    Post  owais.usmani Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:00 pm

    Arrow wrote:https://twitter.com/M_S_Billingslea/status/1365663287707398144

    Russia should never cancel Poseidon and Burevestnik. You can see how much pain they cause in the US, even though they are not in service yet. Laughing Laughing

    Yeah, by his logic Russia should just shelve the whole country.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:21 am

    Did you read that cocksuckers personal description?

    Husband, father. Former Presidential Envoy & Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Terrorist Financing, et al. Adjunct Fellow at Hudson Inst.

    Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Terrorist Financing... they have a government department that funds terrorism?

    Amusing that he thinks they could order Russia about like that though... Russia started those programmes because the US withdrew from the ABM treaty... if the US wants Russia to freeze work on those programmes then rejoin that and the INF treaty and I am sure they will think about it.

    What a drop kick. Like most American politicians, they think it is the 1990s and they are in a position of strength as their own castle crumbles around them.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:09 am

    The US establishment is delusional.   It is so used to dealing with 3rd world loser elites that sell their countries down the
    river and so-called first world ones that do the same (e.g. the EU, Canada, Australia, etc.) that it thinks that only America
    is a real country.   These clowns don't realize that the 1990 system flip in Russia is not a chronic state but a rare historical
    moment.   They lost their chance to turn Russia into a banana republic in the 1990s.   When Putin took over it was game
    over.   They have been in denial since.   Instead of accepting reality they think that they "will put Russian in its place".
    More like they will be the ones who will be put in their place as they break their teeth trying to bite Russia.

    As I have posted more than once, Russia today is more ready to stave off foreign aggression than at any time in its history
    going back over a thousand years.   That is not hyperbole, it is cold hard fact.   Even the command economy USSR of
    1940 was nowhere near as ready.   If the hubris filled yanquis understood what has transpired since 1999 in Russia, they
    would not be so cocky.   Their plans for Ukraine style decomposition have not only flopped they have been driven in
    reverse.   The 2014 sanctions spasm has only made Russia stronger.   And Putin has achieved this real miracle without
    any tyrannical measures like attempted by his predecessors.   Russia is stronger because it does not have an idiot in
    charge trying to force a desired result.   The western projection of "dictatorship" on Russia is pathetic and part of its
    rabid denial of reality when it comes to Russia and so many other issues.

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    Post  Arrow Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:52 am

    https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/12/trident-nuclear-warhead-numbers-set-to-increase-for-first-time-since-cold-war?__twitter_impression=true

    Start extended now UK increases strategic arsenal.

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