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    New START Treaty

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:11 am

    Agree 100%... the powerful in Russia couldn't be billionaires and that is why they destroyed the system... they were powerful in their own country but that didn't translate to being powerful or rich when on holiday.

    The way they then butchered up the assets in all the former Soviet states making people like Bill Browder rich by stealing the pensions of factory workers when they asset stripped anything that worked and then sold it on for billions of dollars... and the workers got fired... of course the equipment and factories were obsolete and useless they said... it is amazing how many billions of dollars you can make selling of scrap metal... it must have been damn high quality scrap metal...

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:50 am

    GarryB wrote:Agree 100%... the powerful in Russia couldn't be billionaires and that is why they destroyed the system... they were powerful in their own country but that didn't translate to being powerful or rich when on holiday.

    The way they then butchered up the assets in all the former Soviet states making people like Bill Browder rich by stealing the pensions of factory workers when they asset stripped anything that worked and then sold it on for billions of dollars... and the workers got fired... of course the equipment and factories were obsolete and useless they said... it is amazing how many billions of dollars you can make selling of scrap metal... it must have been damn high quality scrap metal...

    Capitalism of the western variety is a scam. I recall all the bleating about grey Soviet facades as if all the apartment blocks were bleak and depressing and
    needed to be torn down. After the transition to the brave new world of oligarch parasites this "bad" Soviet housing became prime real estate. There was
    even a recent stink in Moscow because the crappy Khrushovka apartments were being retired in spite of full compensation for the tenants (better flats
    in new buildings, etc.). There is a reason the liberast stooges of the west in Russia rabidly deny that the 1990s were a horror for Russians. The true
    face of capitalism was exposed.

    Another example of the cheap propaganda spewed at Russia and Russians (and everyone else) was the supposed "obsolete" steel industry in Russia. This was
    yet another scam to privatize it for a pittance so some parasites could make more billions. It turns out that this industry was not so useless and today
    is one of the important contributors to Russia's economy. Not all of the Yeltsin comprador schemes to give away the Russian economy to the magic
    oligarch parasites worked out. Thanks to Primakov and Putin. It is some sort of miracle that Yeltsin didn't succeed. It is easier to destroy than to
    create.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:46 am

    The oligarchs in the west wanted some chaos but in the end Jelzin was to successful. There was to much chaos and the western companies were afraid of buying russian companies. That´s why the west loved Putin in the beginning. As soon as they realised that he didn´t implement order for them but for the russian people he was called a autocrat/dictator.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:29 am

    I remember in the 90s one of the biggest western fears was actually Japan... before WWII Japan had an excellent aero industry with some very capable planes let down mainly for lack of engine power... the western fear was that the big powerful Japanese companies might take advantage of the power vacuum in Russia and use their design skills together with Japans excellence in electronics and become a real aerospace power using Soviet rockets and aircraft design and metalurgy and skills with Japanese tooling and electronics and design.

    But they forgot Japan is a good little sheep like the UK and Germany and to a lessor extent France and it will do as it is told and hate Russia too.

    Imagine Americas position if the EU actually made friends with Russia and combined economic and military potential... they were worried about Japan doing it...

    Shows how fragile the American hold on power really is... it is not about Nukes or Abrams tanks... without their gang.... HATO... they are not so tough...
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    Post  calripson on Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:36 am

    GarryB wrote:I remember in the 90s one of the biggest western fears was actually Japan... before WWII Japan had an excellent aero industry with some very capable planes let down mainly for lack of engine power... the western fear was that the big powerful Japanese companies might take advantage of the power vacuum in Russia and use their design skills together with Japans excellence in electronics and become a real aerospace power using Soviet rockets and aircraft design and metalurgy and skills with Japanese tooling and electronics and design.

    But they forgot Japan is a good little sheep like the UK and Germany and to a lessor extent France and it will do as it is told and hate Russia too.

    Imagine Americas position if the EU actually made friends with Russia and combined economic and military potential... they were worried about Japan doing it...

    Shows how fragile the American hold on power really is... it is not about Nukes or Abrams tanks... without their gang.... HATO... they are not so tough...

    Global power rests in the world financial system - centered in London by the way - not in "America". America is simply the vessel used.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:09 pm

    I don't think europe is going to continue to use London as a financial centre... things might be about to take a serious change... and decentralisation is often a good thing anyway.

    I am not so sure the US is the vessel... when commands come from the US everyone in HATO seems to jump... even when they say jump off this cliff...
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:42 am

    Multilateral arms control system to replace New START, Russian expert says


    According to the expert, although Washington seeks to play the Russian threat card, it is China that US views as its opponent and rival


    MOSCOW, August 5. /TASS/. The Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (New START) won’t be extended and a new multilateral arms control system needs to be established in its place, Deputy Director of the Institute for US and Canadian Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences Pavel Zolotarev said during an online conference dubbed US Nuclear Ambitions: from Truman to Trump.

    According to the expert, although Washington seeks to play the Russian threat card, it is China that US views as its opponent and rival. "China causes them concern because according to their estimates, China’s stocks of weapons-grade nuclear materials, particularly weapons-grade plutonium and highly enriched uranium, makes it possible for Beijing to double its nuclear potential," Zolotarev noted.

    In his view, Washington continues to work with Russia on arms control issues not because it wants to maintain the current system but because it wants to take advantage of Russia’s influence to engage China in discussions. "It is pointless to talk about involving China in the nuclear arms reduction process. It is more reasonable to raise the possibility of engaging all nuclear countries. When signing New START, Russia emphasized the need for a multilateral conversation, at least with the members of the Nuclear Five," the expert stressed.

    There is too little time left before New START expires so the treaty is unlikely to be extended, the expert emphasized. According to him, chances are high that New START will cease to exist and Moscow and Washington will start to work together on a new agreement, trying to engage the Nuclear Five.

    https://tass.com/defense/1186041
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:50 pm

    George1 wrote:

    Multilateral arms control system to replace New START, Russian expert says



    According to the expert, although Washington seeks to play the Russian threat card, it is China that US views as its opponent and rival


    MOSCOW, August 5. /TASS/. The Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (New START) won’t be extended and a new multilateral arms control system needs to be established in its place, Deputy Director of the Institute for US and Canadian Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences Pavel Zolotarev said during an online conference dubbed US Nuclear Ambitions: from Truman to Trump.

    According to the expert, although Washington seeks to play the Russian threat card, it is China that US views as its opponent and rival. "China causes them concern because according to their estimates, China’s stocks of weapons-grade nuclear materials, particularly weapons-grade plutonium and highly enriched uranium, makes it possible for Beijing to double its nuclear potential," Zolotarev noted.

    In his view, Washington continues to work with Russia on arms control issues not because it wants to maintain the current system but because it wants to take advantage of Russia’s influence to engage China in discussions. "It is pointless to talk about involving China in the nuclear arms reduction process. It is more reasonable to raise the possibility of engaging all nuclear countries. When signing New START, Russia emphasized the need for a multilateral conversation, at least with the members of the Nuclear Five," the expert stressed.

    There is too little time left before New START expires so the treaty is unlikely to be extended, the expert emphasized. According to him, chances are high that New START will cease to exist and Moscow and Washington will start to work together on a new agreement, trying to engage the Nuclear Five.

    https://tass.com/defense/1186041

    Why would the yanquis sign up for a multilateral process when they are tearing up the existing framework? All they needed to do
    was to extend the existing framework. Instead they are throwing a tantrum and pouring excrement on China and Russia. So this
    expert is naive. He makes it sound like there a climate for new treaties. What has to be done is not the same as what will be
    done. So dreamers can dream.

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    Post  Hole on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:56 pm

    Russia is prepared for the end of START. It can make all kind of suggestions for PR purposes. Look, we try everything, but the deep state in Washington isn´t interested.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:20 am

    According to the expert, although Washington seeks to play the Russian threat card, it is China that US views as its opponent and rival. "China causes them concern because according to their estimates, China’s stocks of weapons-grade nuclear materials, particularly weapons-grade plutonium and highly enriched uranium, makes it possible for Beijing to double its nuclear potential," Zolotarev noted.

    So what... even if it increased their nuclear potential by 10 times they would still have less nukes than either the US or Russia... what difference does it even make?

    In his view, Washington continues to work with Russia on arms control issues not because it wants to maintain the current system but because it wants to take advantage of Russia’s influence to engage China in discussions.

    Except that they aren't continuing to work with Russia.... they are not doing anything except whining that everyone seems to be influencing their elections... like anyone could care less..

    According to him, chances are high that New START will cease to exist and Moscow and Washington will start to work together on a new agreement, trying to engage the Nuclear Five.

    Why would the other nuclear armed countries want to limit their nuclear potential just to keep the US happy?

    This is just the US demanding more power over nuclear armed countries... piss off.


    Why would the yanquis sign up for a multilateral process when they are tearing up the existing framework?

    Why would any country sign up to an agreement that restricts their use and ownership of nuclear weapons?

    Especially to a country known for breaking such agreements when it suits them.

    Effectively they want an agreement that benefits them and they are not interested in anything else.

    It was the same with Iran... the US got what it wanted, but over time it realised Iran could do other things it did not like like develop long range rockets and perhaps gain satellite launch capability and so they tore up the existing and working agreement because they want harsher terms that restrict Iran more and will prevent Iran from developing and growing like a normal country.

    ...and you can bet your ass that is what they want for Russia and China....

    BTW the nuclear expert talks about the Nuclear five... so the obvious Russia, China, the US, and presumable UK and France... but what about India and Pakistan and Israel?
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    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:01 am

    While western media said China refused to join, apparently what they actually said is 'sure we'll join, just contingent on US reducing their weapon count to match China' which is quite interesting.
    So of course now western media is not full of 'US refuses to reduce nukes' but 'China to double deadly nuke weapons' Rolling Eyes

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:31 pm

    hoom wrote:While western media said China refused to join, apparently what they actually said is 'sure we'll join, just contingent on US reducing their weapon count to match China' which is quite interesting.
    So of course now western media is not full of 'US refuses to reduce nukes' but 'China to double deadly nuke weapons' Rolling Eyes

    Western innumerate sheeple. Doubling of small = small. These morons think that doubling is taking something to the Nth power. And of course the yanquis can park their warheads in storage without
    dismantling them, so that's OK. Because America claims to be the guiding light of humanity.

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    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:27 am

    Yes, conveniently the US govt 'accidentally' stalled on funding the plant that was supposed to secure the excess plutonium from the now expiring round.
    Meanwhile Russia not only built a plutonium burning reactor but burnt through most/all of the plutonium, technically somewhat behind schedule but clearly made the effort in good faith.

    But Russia bad, Putin! Bad aggression Russia! Nukes & Novichok shock! Russia agression Putin!
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    nero

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    Post  nero on Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:07 pm

    Simply put - there will be no extension to the treaty unless it completely fucks Russia over.

    Hilariously the Russian's might agree to one. Always the humanitarians...
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:06 pm

    nero wrote:Simply put - there will be no extension to the treaty unless it completely fucks Russia over.

    Hilariously the Russian's might agree to one. Always the humanitarians...

    bumbass.

    Russia already stated that only on equal terms and that is that. Russians are the ones adding in the ABM stuff so it looks like Russia isn't trying to really renew this.
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    Post  nero on Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:17 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:bumbass.

    Russia already stated that only on equal terms and that is that.  Russians are the ones adding in the ABM stuff so it looks like Russia isn't trying to really renew this.

    They say a lot, though act upon very little.

    We're going to see in a couple of years.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:32 pm

    nero wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:bumbass.

    Russia already stated that only on equal terms and that is that.  Russians are the ones adding in the ABM stuff so it looks like Russia isn't trying to really renew this.

    They say a lot, though act upon very little.

    We're going to see in a couple of years.

    Such as?


    I'll throw facts, something you dont do.

    - Russia modernized their nukes.  They didn't sit still.
    - Even under worst situations, Russia stayed Firm at 1,500 Warheads.  They were willing to reduce it further to 1,000 and wasnt worried because of it.
    - They were only willing to negotiate the other systems USA is demanding only if in turn US puts forward their non strategic assets.  They didn't.
    - Russia showcased its weapon systems and what they have done in 20 years.  USA still sits on old Minuteman missiles.
    - Russia didnt sit still with Ukraine.  It took what it needed.
    - Russia didn't sit still with Georgia.  it went to war with them.
    - Russia decided to work on its ABM systems after USA pulled out of the ABM treaty.  They were even willing to sell it to other states and cooperate on unified air defense.  Some states agreed, some didn't.
    - Russia didn't pull back its Iskander missiles from Kaliningrad no matter how much crying and whining happened.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:43 pm

    Putin isn't Gorbie. Gorbie sold Russia down the river by enabling the dissolution of the USSR and the ascent of Yeltsin the comprador drunk.
    It is basically impossible for Russia to sign some treaty with the yanquis that surrenders like Gorbie. And the yanquis are digging their own hole
    by shredding all the treaties that "stand in their way".

    And Russia cannot be coerced with "soft power" tricks like fake novichoke poisonings. NATzO is the boy who cried wolf too many times.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:16 am

    Yes, conveniently the US govt 'accidentally' stalled on funding the plant that was supposed to secure the excess plutonium from the now expiring round.
    Meanwhile Russia not only built a plutonium burning reactor but burnt through most/all of the plutonium, technically somewhat behind schedule but clearly made the effort in good faith.

    If you are talking about old nuclear weapon material, the US has stored all of its nuclear weapons grade material, while Russia processed it into nuclear power fuel rods levels of enrichment instead of weapons grade and sold it to US power companies to use in their power stations.

    Of course the new breeder or fast neutron reactors they are going forward with should allow them to enrich all the nuclear power plant fuel they will need for all their reactors including military ones, and also deal with nuclear fuel rods that would otherwise be waste material.

    If needed these new reactors could also be used to create weapons grade material for tactical and strategic nuclear weapons if required...
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    Post  kvs on Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:48 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Yes, conveniently the US govt 'accidentally' stalled on funding the plant that was supposed to secure the excess plutonium from the now expiring round.
    Meanwhile Russia not only built a plutonium burning reactor but burnt through most/all of the plutonium, technically somewhat behind schedule but clearly made the effort in good faith.

    If you are talking about old nuclear weapon material, the US has stored all of its nuclear weapons grade material, while Russia processed it into nuclear power fuel rods levels of enrichment instead of weapons grade and sold it to US power companies to use in their power stations.

    Of course the new breeder or fast neutron reactors they are going forward with should allow them to enrich all the nuclear power plant fuel they will need for all their reactors including military ones, and also deal with nuclear fuel rods that would otherwise be waste material.

    If needed these new reactors could also be used to create weapons grade material for tactical and strategic nuclear weapons if required...

    The US did not disassemble a substantial number of warheads. Some were scrapped for MOX fuel production by Russia, but not all the downsized 1980s ICBM payloads.

    I know that Tritium has a rather short shelf life (less than 30 years), but the fission cores of hydrogen bombs last forever since they are made out of Plutonium. The
    US has free hands to keep refreshing thousands of warheads which can be deployed in short order on MIRVed ICBMs.

    I wouldn't trust these rats even with ICBM disposal claims. For all we know they just put the allegedly scrapped ICBMs in storage. Removing the fuel and storing
    in a dry place will do wonders for ICBM longevity.

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    calripson

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    Post  calripson on Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:38 pm

    kvs wrote:Putin isn't Gorbie.   Gorbie sold Russia down the river by enabling the dissolution of the USSR and the ascent of Yeltsin the comprador drunk.  
    It is basically impossible for Russia to sign some treaty with the yanquis that surrenders like Gorbie.     And the yanquis are digging their own hole
    by shredding all the treaties that "stand in their way".    

    And Russia cannot be coerced with "soft power" tricks like fake novichoke poisonings.    NATzO is the boy who cried wolf too many times.


    About 20 years ago I visited San Francisco. There is a beautiful property there with a golf course call the Presidio. At that time it was a military retreat for the top brass. I was told one of the people living there was none other than Gorbachev. I think that tells you everything you need to know.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:44 pm

    Well if the pindos are banking on using stashed away warheads they will end up with a lot of obsolete MIRV's with no anti ABM capability.

    It is unlikely that Russia would not have prepared a plan to out produce them in such an eventuality and new Russian warheads can bypass ABM systems.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:22 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Well if the pindos are banking on using stashed away warheads they will end up with a lot of obsolete MIRV's with no anti ABM capability.

    It is unlikely that Russia would not have prepared a plan to out produce them in such an eventuality and new Russian warheads can bypass ABM systems.

    That's how it looks like now. But during the 1990s everything was being scrapped. Russia actually destroyed all of its "excess" warheads under various START stages.
    So smarmy Americans would naturally see an advantage in storing these warheads during the 1990s. Putin and Russians spoiled all their big plans.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:07 am

    To be fair I think the money they made from US electricity companies buying their processed nuclear weapon material in the form they could use in their NPPs probably kept funding for Russian nuclear experts to keep their hands in, and from what I can tell they have kept up their game and seem to be doing rather well now....
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:13 am

    The sale was small. Rosatom sales in purely nuclear development exceeds that of the GDP of Pakistan.

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