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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:03 am

    mnztr wrote:
    George1 wrote:Pella wants through the court to extend the deadline for the delivery of three small missile ships of Project 22800 until 2030

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4784589.html

    Its a shame what has happened Pella seems like a really tight operation but they are being disrupted by other companies.. at least that is my impression. They got those first ships built really fast and quickly accepted.

    Some of the problems with Pella possibly were also related to their acquisition of a shipyard in Hamburg, Germany in order to build larger displacement ships and their won tender for diesel Icebreaker.

    They won a tender to build a project 21900M2 diesel Icebreaker (displacement more than 14000 tons), but there were problems with the construction and with the german shipyard.

    The order was given also to foreign shipyards due to the high loading of russian specialised shipyards like Vyborg and Baltic shipyards which would have not allowed the building for several more years (even if there were also opinions to delay such tender instead)

    (Another icebreaker of this class was build in Helsinki between 2012 and 2015)


    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5028328

    Newspaper "Kommersant" No. 184/P dated 10/11/2021, page 9


    After several auctions for which no applications were submitted, the initial maximum contract price was increased from 7.3 billion to 10.5 billion rubles. It is also unclear whether Rosmorport will receive on time - in 2024 - the first 18 MW icebreaker, which was laid down in November 2020 at the Pella shipyard in Hamburg. The Pella Sietas shipyard is experiencing serious financial difficulties, is under external management, and work on orders has not been carried out for more than six months ( see Kommersant on August 30 ). At the same time, the St. Petersburg Arbitration Court at the end of September stopped proceedings on bankruptcy claims against the parent Pella. Whether Pella Sietas will also be able to avoid bankruptcy is still unknown.

    I believe it should not be allowed the possibility of giving Russian company the possibility to compete for state tenders relying on foreign shipyards.

    If an order is to be given abroad it is not ideal but can be acceptable in some cases, but having a Russian company acting as "middleman" or managing a shipyard abroad is just a recipe for disaster.

    Such ships in the future could be also built in the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch or even in  Kherson or Nikolaev, once the shipyards there are rebuilt after the SMO.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:04 am

    Well Turkey and India and China have not imposed western sanctions on Russia so civilian ships needing to be built could go to shipyards in those countries with careful oversight...

    How the mighty have fallen... is my memory bad or were some claiming all Russian shipyards were terrible except the privately owned and run Pella who was working miracles... why can't they manage all Russian shipyards...

    No doubt Pella took on some risk to get orders and they didn't assess the risk accurately enough... even shipyards who are not in countries with western sanctions imposed on them have problems.

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    Post  Mir Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:25 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    Such ships in the future could be also built in the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch or even in  Kherson or Nikolaev, once the shipyards there are rebuilt after the SMO.

    Zaliv is already active and may very soon even be tasked with building Pr.22350 frigates for the Black Sea?

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:18 am

    GarryB wrote:Well Turkey and India and China have not imposed western sanctions on Russia so civilian ships needing to be built could go to shipyards in those countries with careful oversight...

    How the mighty have fallen... is my memory bad or were some claiming all Russian shipyards were terrible except the privately owned and run Pella who was working miracles... why can't they manage all Russian shipyards...

    No doubt Pella took on some risk to get orders and they didn't assess the risk accurately enough... even shipyards who are not in countries with western sanctions imposed on them have problems.
    Yes but that is the point. Germany already put sanctions against Russia since 2014, even if not yet for the civilian products. It was only matter of time.


    Mir wrote:Zaliv is already active and may very soon even be tasked with building Pr.22350 frigates for the Black Sea?
    I meant more about ice class civilian ships in this case. But yes. In the past Zaliv has built Project 1135 krivak class frigates for Soviet navy and coast guard from 1968 to 1992.  It would be nice if they could build also 22350 or at least 20380 corvettes there. Especially because they probably do not need to use the large drydocks but only the boathouses and smaller slipways to build frigates leaving the drydocks for large ships.

    In the large drydocks Zaliv shipyard once built also the massive nuclear powered cargo ship Sevmorput.

    At the moment they are building there the large helicopter carriers. I would love to see further ships of this class being built in the black sea shipyard in Nikolaev, freeing the drydocks in Kerch for large civilian ships.

    Kherson Shipyard once was also able to build ships up to 40000 tons displacement.
    I am sure after the SMO it would be of a lot of interest for bulk carriers, icebreakers, etc, maybe initially under management of either Vyborg or Baltic shipyard.

    Okean shipyard (south of the city of Nikolaev) is also a premium location to be rebuilt for large and very large civilian ships.

    All money that would be needed to build civilian ships abroad (even if in non hostile countries) can be used to finance reconstruction of those Novorossian shipyards (both for civilian and for military ships) that country 404 did let go derelict.

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    Post  lancelot Sat Jul 13, 2024 5:17 am

    We can probably forget about the nuclear battlecruisers.

    The Baltic Plant received a record loss at the end of 2023
    July 10, 2024

    The St. Petersburg Baltic Shipyard (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC) announced a record loss for 2023. As Business Petersburg reports with reference to the enterprise’s reporting, it amounted to 18.9 billion rubles. At the same time, revenue for the same period increased to 21.1 billion rubles (by 7%).

    “The main loss was due to the delivery of planned unprofitable orders: the first and second serial universal nuclear icebreakers (UAL) of project 22220 (Siberia, Ural)”, the report of Baltic Plant JSC says. The company's uncovered loss at the end of last year amounted to 35.8 billion rubles due to negative financial results in 2021 and 2023.

    It is noted that the planned profitability of the Sibir icebreaker, the delivery of which was postponed from 2019 to 2021, came to naught due to the weakening of the ruble exchange rate, numerous adjustments to the technical design, the cost of work and other factors. The loss due to the construction of the Ural (its delivery was also postponed from 2020 to 2022) was recorded for similar reasons. RBC journalists turned to the Baltic Shipyard press service for clarification, but they refused to comment. The media wrote about the unprofitability of the Baltic Plant several years ago. In 2020, the USC enterprise increased its loss by 22% compared to 2019, to 7.9 billion rubles. The plant's revenue decreased by 8%, to 18.9 billion rubles. In the fall of 2023, VTB Bank received USC for management for five years. After this, the head of VTB, Andrei Kostin, in an interview with RBC, spoke about the need to rebuild the management of the corporation, which was ineffective at the time of the transfer, and to invest in upgrading production capacities. The new top management stopped the procedure for integrating the Baltic Plant into Rosatom. Andrei Kostin also announced the possible transfer of the Baltic Plant's facilities from St. Petersburg to another territory, for example, to Kronstadt. In May of this year, Kostin, in a conversation with reporters, confirmed plans to move some USC shipyards from the center of St. Petersburg to other locations. “Something will have to be brought out - there’s no getting away from it”, he noted.
    https://flotprom.ru/2024/%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B49/

    Yikes. It looks like the Baltic shipyard is losing roughly $200 million USD on every nuclear icebreaker they make. The CEO got sacked and now VTB Bank wants to close the shipyard down and move it elsewhere. Even though they are basically the only shipbuilder in Russia which seems to build large ships quickly.

    It seems like the plan is to close down the shipyards near the center of St. Petersburg and move them elsewhere. Probably to resell their land for urban redevelopment. The thing is there is no "elsewhere" yet. We all know the shipyards in St. Petersburg have poor productivity as it is, but it is not like closing them down without an alternative will help things.

    I think the government needs to stop VTB Bank from doing something stupid with the shipyard. The nuclear icebreaker program is critical for Russia's economic development. Even if they are costing twice the price so what.

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    Post  Arrow Sat Jul 13, 2024 6:07 am

    Apart from the shipyard problems.  It is very doubtful that the VMF would acquire a nuclear-powered cruiser at all.  Let the construction of 22350M units begin.  These destroyers will be enough for VMF.
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    Post  Arrow Thu Aug 08, 2024 8:33 am

    The Rubin Central Design Bureau is the main developer of strategic nuclear submarines, non-nuclear multipurpose submarines and underwater vehicles in the Russian Federation. The Army-2024 exhibition will be held from August 12 to 18 in Kubinka, Moscow Region. "At the Army-2024 exhibition, the design bureau will present the Amur 950 non-nuclear submarine of the sea zone with vertical launchers. In fact, this is a naval floating battery capable of delivering a powerful salvo preemptive strike against enemy ships and coastal infrastructure," the report says. Low noise and hydroacoustics, which provide high awareness, make the submarine extremely suitable for reconnaissance and covert surveillance. The Central Design Bureau specifically notes that only four countries, including Russia, have extensive experience in creating submarines with vertical launchers. This technology involves many nuances: a robust hull with missile tubes perceives water pressure differently, the tube covers and their drives must work reliably in a variety of conditions that arise throughout the life of the boat. A system for inputting data into the missile, a system for ejecting the missile from the tube, a system for holding the boat during firing, and many others are required. In addition, it is necessary to create a coastal infrastructure that ensures the storage, testing, loading and unloading of missiles. JSC Rubin Central Design Bureau and its entire cooperation, due to the regular construction of nuclear ships, have and are developing all the necessary technologies and can offer them to the customer.
    Autonomy of 30 days allows the Amur 950 to operate at a distance of up to 1,000 miles from the shore. Full underwater speed is 20 knots. Crew - 19 people. The displacement of the boat is about a thousand tons.
    Due to the small displacement of the submarine and the technical solutions developed by Rubin Central Design Bureau when creating the third and fourth generations of non-nuclear submarines, the Amur 950 is well suited as a basic platform for designing national submarines according to the requirements of the customer's Navy, the bureau noted.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Aug 08, 2024 9:07 am

    lancelot wrote:We can probably forget about the nuclear battlecruisers.

    The Baltic Plant received a record loss at the end of 2023
    July 10, 2024

    The St. Petersburg Baltic Shipyard (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC) announced a record loss for 2023. As Business Petersburg reports with reference to the enterprise’s reporting, it amounted to 18.9 billion rubles. At the same time, revenue for the same period increased to 21.1 billion rubles (by 7%).

    “The main loss was due to the delivery of planned unprofitable orders: the first and second serial universal nuclear icebreakers (UAL) of project 22220 (Siberia, Ural)”, the report of Baltic Plant JSC says. The company's uncovered loss at the end of last year amounted to 35.8 billion rubles due to negative financial results in 2021 and 2023.

    It is noted that the planned profitability of the Sibir icebreaker, the delivery of which was postponed from 2019 to 2021, came to naught due to the weakening of the ruble exchange rate, numerous adjustments to the technical design, the cost of work and other factors. The loss due to the construction of the Ural (its delivery was also postponed from 2020 to 2022) was recorded for similar reasons. RBC journalists turned to the Baltic Shipyard press service for clarification, but they refused to comment. The media wrote about the unprofitability of the Baltic Plant several years ago. In 2020, the USC enterprise increased its loss by 22% compared to 2019, to 7.9 billion rubles. The plant's revenue decreased by 8%, to 18.9 billion rubles. In the fall of 2023, VTB Bank received USC for management for five years. After this, the head of VTB, Andrei Kostin, in an interview with RBC, spoke about the need to rebuild the management of the corporation, which was ineffective at the time of the transfer, and to invest in upgrading production capacities. The new top management stopped the procedure for integrating the Baltic Plant into Rosatom. Andrei Kostin also announced the possible transfer of the Baltic Plant's facilities from St. Petersburg to another territory, for example, to Kronstadt. In May of this year, Kostin, in a conversation with reporters, confirmed plans to move some USC shipyards from the center of St. Petersburg to other locations. “Something will have to be brought out - there’s no getting away from it”, he noted.
    https://flotprom.ru/2024/%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B49/

    Yikes. It looks like the Baltic shipyard is losing roughly $200 million USD on every nuclear icebreaker they make. The CEO got sacked and now VTB Bank wants to close the shipyard down and move it elsewhere. Even though they are basically the only shipbuilder in Russia which seems to build large ships quickly.

    It seems like the plan is to close down the shipyards near the center of St. Petersburg and move them elsewhere. Probably to resell their land for urban redevelopment. The thing is there is no "elsewhere" yet. We all know the shipyards in St. Petersburg have poor productivity as it is, but it is not like closing them down without an alternative will help things.

    I think the government needs to stop VTB Bank from doing something stupid with the shipyard. The nuclear icebreaker program is critical for Russia's economic development. Even if they are costing twice the price so what.

    They are completely nuts.

    And that shipyard is one of the most capable in Russia. They are also able to build frigates, destroyers and large cruisers, if needed.

    If they have management or money issue, they can just sell the shipyard or the state can take it completely.

    A private person or the management of a company who would like to close it should be sent to the black dolphin

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    Post  lancelot Thu Aug 08, 2024 9:59 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:They are completely nuts.

    And that shipyard is one of the most capable in Russia. They are also able to build frigates, destroyers and large cruisers, if needed.

    If they have management or money issue, they can just sell the shipyard or the state can take it completely.

    A private person or the management of a company who would like to close it should be sent to the black dolphin

    It is pretty simple. VTB Bank wants to sell the shipyards in St. Petersburg. They are located inside the city so they should have high land values. Basically this is a real estate play.

    I have nothing against it provided they actually make a new large shipyard in the area elsewhere to replace the old ones. There is plenty of vacant land in the region. For example near Ust-Luga.

    Given the present order book for the Baltic Shipyard there is just no way they will be making destroyers before 2030.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:14 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    It is pretty simple. VTB Bank wants to sell the shipyards in St. Petersburg. They are located inside the city so they should have high land values. Basically this is a real estate play.
    I have nothing against it provided they actually make a new large shipyard in the area elsewhere to replace the old ones. There is plenty of vacant land in the region. For example near Ust-Luga.
    Given the present order book for the Baltic Shipyard there is just no way they will be making destroyers before 2030.

    It is not a matter of land but infrastructure.
    Industrial grade areas are heavy with subsystems that are not needed for civilian use.
    All the sewage, power grid, and land structures are different.
    Shipyards are extremely heavy on those.
    To duplicate it in some distant area would require billions of investments.
    And you can believe me on that, been there, done that Laughing
    We have played the same dumb games in the whole of 90s/00s, when industrial zones were abandoned and turned into the hands of developers.
    The case is, that industry never recovered after, in another place.
    Industry always creates real income, real jobs, real development, and real wealth.
    You can't wipe your arse with cloud-based content.
    What you need is toilet paper being made in a factory ...

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Aug 09, 2024 12:58 am

    VTB bank can sell the shipyard (at a price established by a court) to the state or to another investor who guarantees that the shipyard will be maintained and improved.

    Since it is a strategic industry it cannot be sold for any other purpose that maintaining that shipyard.

    If they try to sabotage the shipyard, close it or damage it they should be sent to a penal colony for a couple of decades.

    If someone wants to build a brand new shipyard in Ust luga, they should be free to do that, but it has nothing to do with baltic shipyard.

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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:30 am

    VTB bank is a majority state owned bank, headed by fat guy Kostin (long time friend of VVP) and with Siluanov as chairman of the board. There's extremely slim chance that state will be part of any transaction, especially at this time. Land is surely most valuable asset of the company, but closing down a shipyard would be disaster as no other locations are even being officially considered, atm.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:31 am

    caveat emptor wrote:VTB bank is a majority state owned bank, headed by fat guy Kostin (long time friend of VVP) and with Siluanov as chairman of the board. There's extremely slim chance that state will be part of any transaction, especially at this time. Land is surely most valuable asset of the company, but closing down a shipyard would be disaster as no other locations are even being officially considered, atm.

    It does not make sense to select another location.

    And it is not just a shipyard. It is the largest shipyard in Sankt Petersburg.


    As ALAMO was pointing out, the shipyard exists and it is is building ships which are needed for Russia.

    In addition, except for super carriers and extra large oil tankers, it is practically able to build any other type of ships.

    Shoigu was also a friend of VVP and has been removed from his role.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 09, 2024 11:40 am

    Apart from the shipyard problems. It is very doubtful that the VMF would acquire a nuclear-powered cruiser at all. Let the construction of 22350M units begin. These destroyers will be enough for VMF.

    It is rather likely that by the time they get around to designing brand new Destroyers they will probably be nuclear electric drive ships and any cruisers they want to make will also be nuclear electric drive too...

    They plan to have CVNs in the 90K ton weight range with Su-57K fighters and hopefully an AWACS type like the Yak-44 or better... they are going to need cruisers as escorts and their destroyers will also need to keep up too.

    This situation is an opportunity to kick civilians out of the shipyard business and to take it over and operate it under the government instead.
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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Aug 09, 2024 2:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:This situation is an opportunity to kick civilians out of the shipyard business and to take it over and operate it under the government instead.

    It is already government owned, like whole USC. There's nothing to nationalize. Kostin was brought to figure out how to cut costs and optimize production, because it is hemorrhaging money.
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    Post  caveat emptor Sat Aug 10, 2024 5:38 am

    It only remains to be seen if this also means that Peter location is up for sale.

    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/43053.html

    USC continues to select a site for the construction of a new shipyard



    United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) continues to select a site for the new shipyard. This was announced on August 8 during a conversation with journalists in the framework of the II forum "Arctic – Regions" by Deputy General Director for Innovation and Technical Development of JSC "USC" Vasily Boytsov. Sudostroenie.info in the event's organizing committee.

    "The specialization of the shipyard, the volume, tonnage, type and number of vessels per year that a given shipyard should build are fundamental assumptions that should form the basis of the project. In other words, we need to understand whether it is located on a specific site, whether there is a sufficient supply of electricity, transport capabilities, and human resources, of course. Therefore, now we will prove what is the need for vessels, and based on this, we will, having considered a large number of different sites to date, design a specific shipyard in the place where we choose, " said Vasily Boytsov.

    According to him, the corporation is currently synchronizing its strategy with the strategy for the development of the shipbuilding industry, which is being prepared by the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia.

    "This document will answer all our questions," the Deputy General Director of USC summed up.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 10, 2024 9:46 am

    It is already government owned, like whole USC. There's nothing to nationalize. Kostin was brought to figure out how to cut costs and optimize production, because it is hemorrhaging money.

    Private or government run, there are 5th columnists all over the place... they need to have a purge of incompetent or dishonest people.

    They should also look at upgrading shipyards to allow modernised production techniques and new ways of managing projects and also of funding projects so less money is wasted to private banks on loans.

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    Post  lancelot Sat Aug 10, 2024 1:32 pm

    They want to build a new shipyard in the West or North of the country. Supposed to be about as large as the Zvezda shipyard. It will either be built at the St. Petersburg region, or close to Murmansk.

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    Post  Arrow Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:13 pm

    When do they plan to begin construction of this massive complex?
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    Post  Mir Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:35 pm

    lancelot wrote:They want to build a new shipyard in the West or North of the country. Supposed to be about as large as the Zvezda shipyard. It will either be built at the St. Petersburg region, or close to Murmansk.

    I hope that this is for real. Smile

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:21 pm

    lancelot wrote:They want to build a new shipyard in the West or North of the country. Supposed to be about as large as the Zvezda shipyard. It will either be built at the St. Petersburg region, or close to Murmansk.

    If they build It, It will be a good news.
    But why destroy a perfectly good shipyard like Baltic shipyard in Sankt Petersburg?

    P.S. I would like to see a shipyard being built in Mariupol, where previously was located Azovstal.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 11, 2024 5:07 am

    If it is between St Petersberg and Murmansk I would say go Murmansk because the Baltic sea is a HATO sea and building very large ships in such a bottleneck does not make much sense.

    Conditions in Murmansk will be harsher, but access to the world will actually be better, and I suspect the land will be cheaper and less in demand for commercial purposes.

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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Aug 11, 2024 8:08 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    P.S. I would like to see a shipyard being built in Mariupol, where previously was located Azovstal.

    Problem for Mariupol is shallow depth of Azov Sea.  They wouldn't be able to build anything as serious in size as Zvezda does. And  dredging operations would be a necessary cost. Murmansk makes most sense, especially since it is on NSR.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:30 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    P.S. I would like to see a shipyard being built in Mariupol, where previously was located Azovstal.

    Problem for Mariupol is shallow depth of Azov Sea.  They wouldn't be able to build anything as serious in size as Zvezda does. And  dredging operations would be a necessary cost. Murmansk makes most sense, especially since it is on NSR.
    For Mariupol I did not mean an extremely big shipyard. I am talking about something like Pella shipyard in Sankt Petersburg, able to build something with lrss than 2000 tins displacement.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 12, 2024 1:53 am

    Russia should demilitarise what used to be Ukraine that joins the RF.

    There is plenty of civilian shipping that needs to be built that can be made there.

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