Russian Ground Forces: News #2

nomadski wrote:I think it best to have one size barrel for new tanks . Say 125 mm . But use this size to make different rounds . Many different types . We all know : sabot round , HE round , guided missile . But how about launching a laser guided round in high trajectory like howitzer round . Infantry or uav can illuminate target tank . Range can be 15 km . But need to design tank barrel to be capable of high elevation . Design problem . Also like howitzer . Shells can be stored in towed armored trailer behind tank . And fed into tank by small reciprocating conveyor . Many round can be carried . This trailor discarded when tank closes with enemy . I like the coaxial cannon on Armata . It can possibly fire new RF controlled timed air burst against ground or low flying target .

GarryB wrote:

But how about launching a laser guided round in high trajectory like howitzer round .

But why?

Surely it makes more sense to leave hitting targets behind the enemy front line to actual artillery vehicles where heavier calibres like 152mm shells can hit targets 70km distant.

Infantry or uav can illuminate target tank . Range can be 15 km . But need to design tank barrel to be capable of high elevation . Design problem .

Why bother when artillery can already do this?

Also like howitzer . Shells can be stored in towed armored trailer behind tank . And fed into tank by small reciprocating conveyor . Many round can be carried . This trailor discarded when tank closes with enemy .

During the Soviet conflict in Afghanistan vehicles often had trailers... though not armoured trailers, that carried extra HE shells for the use of the vehicles against unarmoured targets... they basically used them as heavily protected artillery vehicles. I suspect it would make more sense to use artillery vehicles or indeed IFVs in that role with either high velocity 57mm main guns or medium pressure larger calibre weapons like 100mm rifled guns like the 100mm gun from the BMP-3 or a 120mm gun/mortar or the Vena or other mortar carrier.

GarryB wrote:

I see very interesting for tanks to have ammunition that allows them to fight outside the range of the portable/man-portable weapons, which limit is marked by 120mm light mortars with rocket assisted ammunition.

Why? Because it would allow to the tanks to attack infantry formations without support of heavy weapons from outside the range of every weapon that they have, without risk, and would reinforce very significantly the action of the artillery and the Surface-Surface weapons (both habitually present in much lower amounts).

Dude... when a tank is facing portable anti tank weapons it wont be firing DU rounds... it will be firing HE rounds... a T-72 can fire HE shells to about 9km based on elevation limitations of the main gun... park on a hill and you could probably fire rounds three or four times further.

While I tend to think that the 152mm caliber is very interesting for the tanks in the armata platform and will succeed, I expect also rocket assisted ammunition for the 125mm caliber and the current tanks. 125mm ammunition always should have bigger range than the 120mm ammunition of the same type (also of other countries), and this would mean a range of around 17-18 Km.

In theory a 125mm gun should be more powerful than a 120mm gun, but then the difference wont actually have that much practical difference.

It is like 7.62 x 54mm ammo compared with 7.62 x 51mm. When loading for hunting you can load heavier bullets in the Soviet round because its case is bigger but in terms of effect on target I very much doubt the target would actually notice the difference in bullet weight or speed.

eehnie wrote:

GarryB wrote:

I see very interesting for tanks to have ammunition that allows them to fight outside the range of the portable/man-portable weapons, which limit is marked by 120mm light mortars with rocket assisted ammunition.

Why? Because it would allow to the tanks to attack infantry formations without support of heavy weapons from outside the range of every weapon that they have, without risk, and would reinforce very significantly the action of the artillery and the Surface-Surface weapons (both habitually present in much lower amounts).

Dude... when a tank is facing portable anti tank weapons it wont be firing DU rounds... it will be firing HE rounds... a T-72 can fire HE shells to about 9km based on elevation limitations of the main gun... park on a hill and you could probably fire rounds three or four times further.

While I tend to think that the 152mm caliber is very interesting for the tanks in the armata platform and will succeed, I expect also rocket assisted ammunition for the 125mm caliber and the current tanks. 125mm ammunition always should have bigger range than the 120mm ammunition of the same type (also of other countries), and this would mean a range of around 17-18 Km.

In theory a 125mm gun should be more powerful than a 120mm gun, but then the difference wont actually have that much practical difference.

It is like 7.62 x 54mm ammo compared with 7.62 x 51mm. When loading for hunting you can load heavier bullets in the Soviet round because its case is bigger but in terms of effect on target I very much doubt the target would actually notice the difference in bullet weight or speed.

In overall terms a rocket assisted system would be compatible with every type of ammunition. Here little problem.

Also, on land, the maximum limit of the portable/man-portable weapons is done by light mortars, portable 120mm mortars, that have also rocket assisted projectiles and guided ammunition that can be used vs tanks, from outside of the range of the tanks, and the tank would not be able to answer except if the tank is provided with 125mm rocket assisted ammunition.

In the game of ranges the tanks must be winner at every range over infantry weapons. No excuses.

eehnie wrote:When we talk about positions hidden to direct fire is necessary to think in the tanks as formations of multiple units, not in a single one. What is hidden for one, maybe not for other. In fact in the distribution of the formations of tanks it is necessary to take this into account, to leave not safe positions for the adversary. To have 125mm with rocket assisted projectiles would be cheap and easy, and would put the 125mm tanks above the 120mm caliber weapons making the infantry formations lose its alone advantage of the tanks today.

The use of drones is also positive, but must be rational. Drones are expensive and vulnerable. Sometimes to expose a drone to destroy a 120mm light mortar can make at the end that the loses in the side of the drone become bigger than in the side of the mortar in economical terms. If the drone is destroyed, the drone is likely more expensive than the 120mm light mortar.

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:When we talk about positions hidden to direct fire is necessary to think in the tanks as formations of multiple units, not in a single one. What is hidden for one, maybe not for other. In fact in the distribution of the formations of tanks it is necessary to take this into account, to leave not safe positions for the adversary. To have 125mm with rocket assisted projectiles would be cheap and easy, and would put the 125mm tanks above the 120mm caliber weapons making the infantry formations lose its alone advantage of the tanks today.

The use of drones is also positive, but must be rational. Drones are expensive and vulnerable. Sometimes to expose a drone to destroy a 120mm light mortar can make at the end that the loses in the side of the drone become bigger than in the side of the mortar in economical terms. If the drone is destroyed, the drone is likely more expensive than the 120mm light mortar.

Rocket assisted 125mm would wear out barrel even more than GLATGM-s, and they are already called "bore destroyers". Its simply not worth the trouble and cost.

These days there are ATGMs that are reaching ranges of 10km, even more, however 95% of the time in combat its out of the question that ATGM team will be able to exploit all of its range. Battlefield is almost never, if ever plain field.

Isos wrote:

These days there are ATGMs that are reaching ranges of 10km, even more, however 95% of the time in combat its out of the question that ATGM team will be able to exploit all of its range. Battlefield is almost never, if ever plain field.

It's better to increase the warhead size and reduce the range. The best advantage of infantry anti tank team is that they can hide between houses or in the forest while the shooting won't last more than 30 sec. 3-4 km is more than enough even for a lonely guy. Equiped with a motorbike he can leave the area in 1 min.

The thing is that for destroying a modern tank from any side you need a very big HEAT warhead. Shooting at 10km without destroying it is useless. While destroying it from 3km is much more interesting.

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

GarryB wrote:

I see very interesting for tanks to have ammunition that allows them to fight outside the range of the portable/man-portable weapons, which limit is marked by 120mm light mortars with rocket assisted ammunition.

Why? Because it would allow to the tanks to attack infantry formations without support of heavy weapons from outside the range of every weapon that they have, without risk, and would reinforce very significantly the action of the artillery and the Surface-Surface weapons (both habitually present in much lower amounts).

Dude... when a tank is facing portable anti tank weapons it wont be firing DU rounds... it will be firing HE rounds... a T-72 can fire HE shells to about 9km based on elevation limitations of the main gun... park on a hill and you could probably fire rounds three or four times further.

While I tend to think that the 152mm caliber is very interesting for the tanks in the armata platform and will succeed, I expect also rocket assisted ammunition for the 125mm caliber and the current tanks. 125mm ammunition always should have bigger range than the 120mm ammunition of the same type (also of other countries), and this would mean a range of around 17-18 Km.

In theory a 125mm gun should be more powerful than a 120mm gun, but then the difference wont actually have that much practical difference.

It is like 7.62 x 54mm ammo compared with 7.62 x 51mm. When loading for hunting you can load heavier bullets in the Soviet round because its case is bigger but in terms of effect on target I very much doubt the target would actually notice the difference in bullet weight or speed.

In overall terms a rocket assisted system would be compatible with every type of ammunition. Here little problem.

Also, on land, the maximum limit of the portable/man-portable weapons is done by light mortars, portable 120mm mortars, that have also rocket assisted projectiles and guided ammunition that can be used vs tanks, from outside of the range of the tanks, and the tank would not be able to answer except if the tank is provided with 125mm rocket assisted ammunition.

In the game of ranges the tanks must be winner at every range over infantry weapons. No excuses.

120mm mortar is not "portable". They require to be towed by motor vehicle. 60 and 81/2mm mortars are carried by infantry, 120mm no.

Tanks lack awareness for the most part to be able to explot advantages of long range munitions, even with support of UAVs and various BMS platforms it will keep being so for long time.

These days there are ATGMs that are reaching ranges of 10km, even more, however 95% of the time in combat its out of the question that ATGM team will be able to exploit all of its range. Battlefield is almost never, if ever plain field.

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:

These days there are ATGMs that are reaching ranges of 10km, even more, however 95% of the time in combat its out of the question that ATGM team will be able to exploit all of its range. Battlefield is almost never, if ever plain field.

It's better to increase the warhead size and reduce the range. The best advantage of infantry anti tank team is that they can hide between houses or in the forest while the shooting won't last more than 30 sec. 3-4 km is more than enough even for a lonely guy. Equiped with a motorbike he can leave the area in 1 min.

The thing is that for destroying a modern tank from any side you need a very big HEAT warhead. Shooting at 10km without destroying it is useless. While destroying it from 3km is much more interesting.

Heavier warheads with shorter ranges are better idea for infantry platforms, yes. Lighter warheads with longer ranges are seemingly taking place in aerial platforms due to far easier top-attack mode implementation compared to land launchers.

120mm mortar is not "portable". They require to be towed by motor vehicle. 60 and 81/2mm mortars are carried by infantry, 120mm no.

Tanks lack awareness for the most part to be able to explot advantages of long range munitions, even with support of UAVs and various BMS platforms it will keep being so for long time.

GarryB wrote:

Vikhr is a long range and very powerfull missile andcan be used by infantry.

There is no ground launched version of Vikhr in service AFAIK.

Kornet is man portable and there are ground launched ATAKA and Shturm missiles, but that is about it for Russian missiles.

A tank has very limited ability to detect enemy ground forces at more than 2-3kms or so most of the time... as you increase the distance you greatly increase the volume of space an enemy can hide.

Next gen tanks will have tethered UAVs with radar and EO systems to search for targets but they still wont see everything.

The smoke and noise and natural and unnatural cover on a modern battlefield means it is unlikely a tank crew will even know it is under attack most of the time.

Automatic systems like Afghantsi and battlefield radar and acoustic systems to determine enemy fire and the location of the threat will help but the advantage is always with the enemy in that regard.

eehnie wrote:

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

GarryB wrote:

I see very interesting for tanks to have ammunition that allows them to fight outside the range of the portable/man-portable weapons, which limit is marked by 120mm light mortars with rocket assisted ammunition.

Why? Because it would allow to the tanks to attack infantry formations without support of heavy weapons from outside the range of every weapon that they have, without risk, and would reinforce very significantly the action of the artillery and the Surface-Surface weapons (both habitually present in much lower amounts).

Dude... when a tank is facing portable anti tank weapons it wont be firing DU rounds... it will be firing HE rounds... a T-72 can fire HE shells to about 9km based on elevation limitations of the main gun... park on a hill and you could probably fire rounds three or four times further.

While I tend to think that the 152mm caliber is very interesting for the tanks in the armata platform and will succeed, I expect also rocket assisted ammunition for the 125mm caliber and the current tanks. 125mm ammunition always should have bigger range than the 120mm ammunition of the same type (also of other countries), and this would mean a range of around 17-18 Km.

In theory a 125mm gun should be more powerful than a 120mm gun, but then the difference wont actually have that much practical difference.

It is like 7.62 x 54mm ammo compared with 7.62 x 51mm. When loading for hunting you can load heavier bullets in the Soviet round because its case is bigger but in terms of effect on target I very much doubt the target would actually notice the difference in bullet weight or speed.

In overall terms a rocket assisted system would be compatible with every type of ammunition. Here little problem.

Also, on land, the maximum limit of the portable/man-portable weapons is done by light mortars, portable 120mm mortars, that have also rocket assisted projectiles and guided ammunition that can be used vs tanks, from outside of the range of the tanks, and the tank would not be able to answer except if the tank is provided with 125mm rocket assisted ammunition.

In the game of ranges the tanks must be winner at every range over infantry weapons. No excuses.

120mm mortar is not "portable". They require to be towed by motor vehicle. 60 and 81/2mm mortars are carried by infantry, 120mm no.

Tanks lack awareness for the most part to be able to explot advantages of long range munitions, even with support of UAVs and various BMS platforms it will keep being so for long time.

These days there are ATGMs that are reaching ranges of 10km, even more, however 95% of the time in combat its out of the question that ATGM team will be able to exploit all of its range. Battlefield is almost never, if ever plain field.

Yes they are carried by infantry.

Even the 2B23 120mm mortar was designed to be man-portable, divided in 4 or 5 parts. It is man-portable.

But also other 120mm mortars are "portable" in the sense that can be transported inside vehicles without limitations or need of special designs (even in a civil car), in the same way that other infantry weapon or ammunition. "Portable" mortars, like the 2B11 and the PM-38, require not a tractor element like the heavy artillery, despite can have them in some cases.

They are weapons of small relative size and weight. Today the portable/man-portable weapons of Russia would be the weapons under 500 Kg, taking into account that between 300 and 500 Kg Russia only has the 2B23 (man-portable in parts).

Finally, the commented for formations of multiple units and its deployment is valid for both sides. Both sides want to leave not hidden places for the adversary. The terrain is not plain but a good positioning of the own units try to avoid to leavy positions where the adversary can be covered by the terrain.

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

GarryB wrote:

I see very interesting for tanks to have ammunition that allows them to fight outside the range of the portable/man-portable weapons, which limit is marked by 120mm light mortars with rocket assisted ammunition.

Why? Because it would allow to the tanks to attack infantry formations without support of heavy weapons from outside the range of every weapon that they have, without risk, and would reinforce very significantly the action of the artillery and the Surface-Surface weapons (both habitually present in much lower amounts).

Dude... when a tank is facing portable anti tank weapons it wont be firing DU rounds... it will be firing HE rounds... a T-72 can fire HE shells to about 9km based on elevation limitations of the main gun... park on a hill and you could probably fire rounds three or four times further.

While I tend to think that the 152mm caliber is very interesting for the tanks in the armata platform and will succeed, I expect also rocket assisted ammunition for the 125mm caliber and the current tanks. 125mm ammunition always should have bigger range than the 120mm ammunition of the same type (also of other countries), and this would mean a range of around 17-18 Km.

In theory a 125mm gun should be more powerful than a 120mm gun, but then the difference wont actually have that much practical difference.

It is like 7.62 x 54mm ammo compared with 7.62 x 51mm. When loading for hunting you can load heavier bullets in the Soviet round because its case is bigger but in terms of effect on target I very much doubt the target would actually notice the difference in bullet weight or speed.

In overall terms a rocket assisted system would be compatible with every type of ammunition. Here little problem.

Also, on land, the maximum limit of the portable/man-portable weapons is done by light mortars, portable 120mm mortars, that have also rocket assisted projectiles and guided ammunition that can be used vs tanks, from outside of the range of the tanks, and the tank would not be able to answer except if the tank is provided with 125mm rocket assisted ammunition.

In the game of ranges the tanks must be winner at every range over infantry weapons. No excuses.

120mm mortar is not "portable". They require to be towed by motor vehicle. 60 and 81/2mm mortars are carried by infantry, 120mm no.

Tanks lack awareness for the most part to be able to explot advantages of long range munitions, even with support of UAVs and various BMS platforms it will keep being so for long time.

These days there are ATGMs that are reaching ranges of 10km, even more, however 95% of the time in combat its out of the question that ATGM team will be able to exploit all of its range. Battlefield is almost never, if ever plain field.

Yes they are carried by infantry.

Even the 2B23 120mm mortar was designed to be man-portable, divided in 4 or 5 parts. It is man-portable.

But also other 120mm mortars are "portable" in the sense that can be transported inside vehicles without limitations or need of special designs (even in a civil car), in the same way that other infantry weapon or ammunition. "Portable" mortars, like the 2B11 and the PM-38, require not a tractor element like the heavy artillery, despite can have them in some cases.

They are weapons of small relative size and weight. Today the portable/man-portable weapons of Russia would be the weapons under 500 Kg, taking into account that between 300 and 500 Kg Russia only has the 2B23 (man-portable in parts).

Finally, the commented for formations of multiple units and its deployment is valid for both sides. Both sides want to leave not hidden places for the adversary. The terrain is not plain but a good positioning of the own units try to avoid to leavy positions where the adversary can be covered by the terrain.

120mm M75 mortar we use here is 262Kg with its transport mount, that is not, by any means portable. Portable is when you can divide our M57 mortar and two-three men and carry it for 20 miles into mountain.

Our M-74 was lighter version which was desiegned to be carried by horses or donkeys for mountain units, again, not men. However it was very rare i doubt any remain in service up to this time, lower weight had in return far lower rate of fire and general lifespan.

M-75 is attached to TAM-110 for towing, or some other motor vehicle in that class, by standard it was TAM-110, again i never saw it being handled by hands for more than 100-200m tops, where someone prepared firing position. 81/82mm mortars yes.

Let alone fact that 120mm mortar detachment consists of 2 com officers, scout, sighter, ballistics calculator, then for each of 4 mortars there is aimer, two shell handlers and fuser.

Isos wrote:With the armies being smaller and smaller it's better to have a light self propelled mortar like 2S9 Nona or Something even lighter with all its communication systems and GPS/Glonass targeting computers and other its safety for the crew than these "normal" mortars.

eehnie wrote:

Your comment looks pretty archaic, even using miles still

About to carry the mortars, what do you mean? to carry them like in the XIX-century? walking, with horses or donkeys? or to carry them in a modern way, in their vehicles... Today even the airborne troops have their own vehicles...

A light 120mm mortar, like those between 200 and 300 Kg are easily portable in every infantry vehicle, without adaptations, without a need of towing. They are not exactly man-portable, but I know people that can up them to inside a vehicle alone, without help. The light mortars of 120mm give not problem to be carried today, this is why I use the "portable/man-portable" formulation to talk about the weapons that need nothing aditional or specific to be transported by the infantry. There is not doubt that today these light 120mm mortars are infantry weapons.

Other question is a mortar like the 2B9 Vasilek, with over 600 Kg, and more difficult dimensions to be transported. This is just the main reason of its decline.

Surely the design of the PM-38/43 light mortar of 120mm has been one of the most outstanding designs of the WWII, remaining almost without changes until now. The PM-38 is a 79 years old weapon, and its design remains very actual and useful today. To transport a mortar like this today is nothing for an armata platform vehicle (very interesting fire power complement for the T-15 or even for this BMP-T Terminator-3). In fact, can be done by every infantry vehicle and civil car.

Isos wrote:With the armies being smaller and smaller it's better to have a light self propelled mortar like 2S9 Nona or Something even lighter with all its communication systems and GPS/Glonass targeting computers and other its safety for the crew than these "normal" mortars.

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:With the armies being smaller and smaller it's better to have a light self propelled mortar like 2S9 Nona or Something even lighter with all its communication systems and GPS/Glonass targeting computers and other its safety for the crew than these "normal" mortars.

"Normal" mortars are going nowhere as they far, far, far cheaper to be made, lighter and its easy to break such units in smaller detachments. You cant leave self propelled mortar especially not one on tracked platform on its own without support of accompanying units.

You have today hand held BMS and Balistic computers that do exactly the same job again at fraction of the cost. You can take 60/82 mm mortar at the top of the building, down the well, under stairs, inside the building, under bridge, in sewer pipe... you cant do that with something weighting 25tons.

When its about 120mm mortars, i am more for those semi-fixed variants that have their dedicated vehicle, but which allows mortar to be taken off and used as normal mortar at any moment. Something like simplified Thales Scorpion mortar system lets say.