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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    Azi

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    Post  Azi on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:01 pm

    marat wrote:
    Reduced, yes but not fully stealth, just look at Visby class or Zumwalt.

    Even gun barrels are hidden as  rcs of the gun will make all other rcs reduction for them (even in such a  huge ship as Zumwalt is)  useless. So pure size of ship is not so important.

    And Paket launchers are far...far bigger then gun barrels or you disagree with that?  

    Also look at all of that anchor equipment  which is not hidden below deck, and then ask your self why full stealth designs have clear upper deck.
    Haha Laughing  yes! You are right, but we compared Karakurt with Gorshkov and not Zumwalt. Karakurt has lower RCS than Gorshkov from frontal aspect. Visby and Zumwalt are all aspect stealth ships, but Zumwalt has other problems too and is a grave for tax money.

    The Paket launchers are only visible from the "wrong" angle, maybe you catch the Karakurt in this position, or maybe not.

    I'm not happy too with dozens off different corvette, frigate classes. I wish a unification with Mercury (new design) as corvette, Gorshkov frigate, Super Gorskov destroyer and Lider as cruiser. Karakurt has a good punch, better than most Euro-frigates...but is only a niche ship for coast regions...but for that is perfect Wink
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    marat

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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:36 pm

    Azi wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Reduced, yes but not fully stealth, just look at Visby class or Zumwalt.

    Even gun barrels are hidden as  rcs of the gun will make all other rcs reduction for them (even in such a  huge ship as Zumwalt is)  useless. So pure size of ship is not so important.

    And Paket launchers are far...far bigger then gun barrels or you disagree with that?  

    Also look at all of that anchor equipment  which is not hidden below deck, and then ask your self why full stealth designs have clear upper deck.
    Haha Laughing  yes! You are right, but we compared Karakurt with Gorshkov and not Zumwalt. Karakurt has lower RCS than Gorshkov from frontal aspect. Visby and Zumwalt are all aspect stealth ships, but Zumwalt has other problems too and is a grave for tax money.

    The Paket launchers are only visible from the "wrong" angle, maybe you catch the Karakurt in this position, or maybe not.

    I'm not happy too with dozens off different corvette, frigate classes. I wish a unification with Mercury (new design) as corvette, Gorshkov frigate, Super Gorskov destroyer and Lider as cruiser. Karakurt has a good punch, better than most Euro-frigates...but is only a niche ship for coast regions...but for that is perfect ;)

    So, if it isn't broken... do not fix it Smile.
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:27 am

    Azi wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Reduced, yes but not fully stealth, just look at Visby class or Zumwalt.

    Even gun barrels are hidden as  rcs of the gun will make all other rcs reduction for them (even in such a  huge ship as Zumwalt is)  useless. So pure size of ship is not so important.

    And Paket launchers are far...far bigger then gun barrels or you disagree with that?  

    Also look at all of that anchor equipment  which is not hidden below deck, and then ask your self why full stealth designs have clear upper deck.
    Haha Laughing  yes! You are right, but we compared Karakurt with Gorshkov and not Zumwalt. Karakurt has lower RCS than Gorshkov from frontal aspect. Visby and Zumwalt are all aspect stealth ships, but Zumwalt has other problems too and is a grave for tax money.

    The Paket launchers are only visible from the "wrong" angle, maybe you catch the Karakurt in this position, or maybe not.

    I'm not happy too with dozens off different corvette, frigate classes. I wish a unification with Mercury (new design) as corvette, Gorshkov frigate, Super Gorskov destroyer and Lider as cruiser. Karakurt has a good punch, better than most Euro-frigates...but is only a niche ship for coast regions...but for that is perfect Wink

    The Karakurt is a sea-going version of the Buyan-M.
    It's a modern imagining of the missile boat concept. With some added capabilities, like land-attack through Kalibr missiles.
    But also lacking things like Sonar and helicopters.

    So it's not a corvette, frigate or any such multifunctional class.
    It's a surface attack vessel and cruise missile carrier for employment against land targets in relative proximity to Russia (a good third of the planet keeping in mind the Kalibr's range and the extent of Russia's coastal waters).

    What it's not and cannot be is an ASW vessel or some kind of patrol ship with endurance.
    For the Grisha replacement and so on, you have the Project 22160; which is an excellent design with scope for modularity, a helicopter, and can do the ASW role perfectly fine at a cheap cost, as well as fulfill other auxillary roles; including surface attack if it's armed with an UKSK container.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:01 am


    Pretty much this ^^^

    Karakurt is not supposed to hunt for submarines

    But if the enemy has to allocate a submarine just to deal with one tiny boat then that in itself is already an accomplishment

    If this happens it still needs something to defend itself with which is where Paket-NK comes in

    A self-defense tool, nothing more



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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:41 am

    Not so true, it have more VLS UKSK and same no of PAKET and ciws as 20385 , only main gun is smaller. But sensors have to be same .So price will be big and main maritime abilities of this ship will be significantly lower.

    The UKSK launcher can launch any attack type missile any cold war Soviet vessel could carry (in equivalent terms) but it can also carry land attack conventional weapons which previous ships could not... on its own it makes a ship multi functional because even if it doesn't have a sonar or eyes on a land based target 3,000km away it can use target data from other platforms to use such weapons effectively itself... making it much more multirole than previous types.

    With all of those weapons and respective equipment this ship we be expensive.

    New boats can't be cheap any more.... besides they can spend money having hundreds of cheap simple boats with limited capability that need tens of thousands of sailors to operate them all, or they could have fewer much more sophisticated and also more capable vessels with rather less crew.

    If you want car examples, it is same as you install engine of sport car in car that you want to you for daily shoping in neighborhood.

    If you can only afford to develop one engine type then it makes sense to have a high performance engine that can be derated for other purposes... a six cylinder engine that only fires 3 or 4 cylinders in traffic to save fuel and engine life.

    The facts are that they are developing a few different types of Corvette and each will likely best suit some roles and be less than wonderful for other roles or other locations and environments. Saying the missiles they carry might be too expensive... well they don't actually have to have anything loaded in them for many roles and missions.

    If they need costal ship basic karakut is fine, and they will ned some cheap ASW ships as replacement for Grisha and Parchim ( maybe on same platform as Karakut but without UKSK and having RBU and Paket).

    My understanding was that Karakut was a more seaworthy version of the Buyan-M river/coastal gun boat wasn't it?

    For such a role it doesn't need to too much of a NATO killer...

    You will have to pack at least 50 members of crew in this ship. Karakut have 39 but 20380 have 90. This ship lack helicopter and have smaller main gun but it have all other weapon systems as 20380 or even 20385 ( UKSK, PAKET 2 CIWS and SAM). So weapons of 2500t ship putted in 1000t ship. This doesn't look a bit problematic for you?

    Lack of a helicopter should reduce crew requirements, but clearly the main saving of space on board is reducing the crew to less than half that of the Steregushy... that alone would reduce the required space needed.

    Modern computer modeled designs allow designers to explore their designs before any metal is cut so they can see conflicts... pipes going through walls etc etc...

    I would assume they have properly modelled the crew spaces but I doubt they would ever allow enough to make a Sailor happy... no offense meant.

    Then there is section for C&C which have to be increased for space for sonar room and Paket C&C room. Below this section you will have engine room (my guess as UKSK are very deep so it is unlikely that engine will be below UKSK. Then UKSK, and stern with SAM and Paket.

    I would suspect the volume required for electronics has actually reduced compared with older vessels because where you might need an entire room to get the processing power needed, these days a phone could do a comparable job, but I would suspect the space needed would not be negligible, but it has no sonar and therefore likely no sonar room on the Karakut...

    I do not know if you have some sailor experience? Koni was 2000t and it was very cramped inside. Did you ever live on ship?

    No, I didn't and no I haven't.

    If this ship will be so good armed and expensive, why are you saving money on cheapest BUT most important thing for a ship? You are saving in its maritime quality and crew space. You will have cramped ship with no space for crew without range and endurance.

    I didn't design it.

    I appreciate you saying that crew comfort is important, but I suspect ship designers in Russia would know this too.

    Guys quallity is more important then quantity. Especially in Navy. 100 OSA class ships will not keep USN or JMSDF 1000 milles away from Russian shore.

    No, but 50 MiG-31s with Kinzhal would.

    They shouldn't be building Karakuts and other corvettes to take on NATO or the US, they should be building them to be useful for naval roles close to Russian territory... with the expectation that there will be Frigates supporting them and destroyers and cruisers to do similar things much further away.

    It is better to have full stealth and good maritime quality ship with 8 UKSK.

    Then "reduced" rcs (even if it is not so reduced at all) cramped ship with 16 UKSK.

    I totally agree... many seem to think a good ship is the ship that carries the most launch tubes... and for that reason think they should not bother upgrade older larger vessels and just build new big ships, but I think older vessels with newer weapons even in smaller quantities than a new ship design could carry is a good step forward and would be rather quicker too.

    It would also be a good way to test new larger radar arrays and sensors that will only fit on larger ships before they are fitted to new large ship designs.

    Expensive missile boats is not what they need.

    There wont be such a thing as a cheap boat in the future sadly...

    What it's not and cannot be is an ASW vessel or some kind of patrol ship with endurance.

    With the likely electronics on her to share the netcentric infospace she could easily support an ASW operation simply by carrying 91ER1s in her UKSK launch tubes and using data from other platforms to work out where to fire it to... not to mention a lot of the time operating around Russian waters she should be able to access information from their sea bed sonar sets, so having her own helo and sonar might be considered redundant.

    In WWIII scenario for all we know their job might be to just sail around the Russian canal network launching nuclear armed land attack cruise missiles adapted to fill the UKSK launch tube (ie bigger calibre and longer missiles) to reach 5,000km...
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    Post  marat on Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:03 am

    @garryB

    I really have no timefor reading and quoting your whole wall sized post Smile

    But this... this is a gold >

    I would suspect the volume required for electronics has actually reduced compared with older vessels because where you might need an entire room to get the processing power needed, these days a phone could do a comparable job, but I would suspect the space needed would not be negligible, but it has no sonar and therefore likely no sonar room on the Karakut..

    Really GarryB, is this how things are going? In your home, in your office, car... in fighter jet... ? We have less space needed for electronic devices and their equipement???
    Then you are lucky.. Very Happy  Very Happy
    12 years ago in my office I had just 1 desktop PC keyboard and mouse, and i was fine with that.
    Now I have laptop, which indeed is smaller and much stronger then that desktop.
    But I have extra screen as well, and docking station, an extra keyboard and mouse, and multifunction scanner/printer, and fast printer, and router and cisco phone, and smartphone, and 4 different chargers and paper cutter. So i need more space then 12 years ago.

    Same goes in my home, i used to have 1 desktop. Now have 2 desktops, 1 laptop, 2 tablets 3 smartphones, printer, scanner and unknow no. of chargers …  Smile and i am not fan of technic and electronic  cry

    So i am quite sure that even if electronic equipment is better now and less space is needed for "unit of capabilities", we all need more and more of it and that more and more space is occupied with electronic and more power we need for them (even if they need less power now then in past).

    Well same goes with warships. More radars, and some more radars on top of them. More EW gear, more communication sets, more computers to synchronize  them, more computers to command and control all parts and all processes in ship… more wiring more electric generators...

    But this is just my opinion based on my experience.

    PS and this version of Karakut (if ever be build which I doubt) will need a sonar as they put PaketN on it, and Paket need to have sonar suit.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:05 am

    marat wrote:
    So i need more space then 12 years ago.


    drama queen



    marat wrote:PS and this version of Karakut (if ever be build which I doubt)  will need a sonar as they put PaketN on it,  and Paket need to have sonar suit.

    http://www.pellaship.ru/pella-army-2018

    Pella 2 years ago suggested a towed sonar for export version.

    BTW I agree with flaming_p - 221560 would be much better hull for AntiSub ship
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    Post  marat on Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:03 am

    http://www.pellaship.ru/pella-army-2018

    Pella 2 years ago suggested a towed sonar for export version.

    I do not see that claim in linked text. I do not see that they have Paket or sonar in list of equipment and weapons.

    And, as it was mentioned that this version will hardly be part of RuNavy and this link is related for export version
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 am

    I really have no timefor reading and quoting your whole wall sized post

    Sorry if I am boring you.

    Really GarryB, is this how things are going? In your home, in your office, car... in fighter jet... ? We have less space needed for electronic devices and their equipement???
    Then you are lucky.. Very Happy Very Happy
    12 years ago in my office I had just 1 desktop PC keyboard and mouse, and i was fine with that.
    Now I have laptop, which indeed is smaller and much stronger then that desktop.
    But I have extra screen as well, and docking station, an extra keyboard and mouse, and multifunction scanner/printer, and fast printer, and router and cisco phone, and smartphone, and 4 different chargers and paper cutter. So i need more space then 12 years ago.

    Same goes in my home, i used to have 1 desktop. Now have 2 desktops, 1 laptop, 2 tablets 3 smartphones, printer, scanner and unknow no. of chargers … Smile and i am not fan of technic and electronic cry

    I appreciate what you are saying, but the technology of the 1970s compared with the technology now... a mainframe computer... which would have been needed to perform the sort of tasks they wanted (Yes I realise there were no mainframe computers in small Soviet ships... only command vessels like Kirov or Slava etc) the volume and space needed to have a computer to do what was needed was enormous and their performance was awful.

    A building sized computer that took days to programme with punch cards that took a week to process you "programme" was a normal thing... today a cell phone could perform much more complex calculations much faster using much less power.

    4 decades ago only computer people were even interested in computers and had anything to do with them.... these days there are very few jobs where you don't need to use a computer or electronics... computers have taken over our lives as you say, but the previous things used that they replace took up space as well and on most ships in the 80s they took up quite a bit of space and were analog machines and a direct replacement could be achieved by tiny models... but they have not been directly replaced... the capabilities of the hardware and software have allowed the capabilities of the ships to be dramatically expanded... and even then things have improved... great big thick data ribbon cables are replaced by much smaller Sata cables with much better capacity and performance... fibreoptic cables take it a step further between computers and servers.
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    Post  marat on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:23 pm

    That is all true, but doesn't change anything in our little discussion. But lets agree that we do not agree Smile.

    I still thing that version of Karakut from that picture would be actually worse then current version and my main objection is adding new weapon system line on very small platform. Some of you believe that that version would be great.
    I believe that RuNavy will not accept it, some of you belive it would be great ship for RuNavy.

    But time will tell.

    On other hand we will have many new Karakuts in service this year, I hope at least 5 of them on top of 2 already accepted. So this topic will be interesting this year.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:45 pm

    marat wrote:
    http://www.pellaship.ru/pella-army-2018

    Pella 2 years ago suggested a towed sonar for export version.

    I do not see that claim in linked text. I do not see that they have Paket or sonar in list of equipment and weapons.

    And, as it was mentioned that this version will hardly be part of RuNavy and this link is related for export version

    Paket or not it would definitely be a good move to double the missile load

    I think next big batch will be in this version especially since they do have issues with diesel engine production holding up completion of ships and this one is using different engine type

    Paket is optional anyway and easily removed

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:49 pm

    marat wrote:
    I do not see that claim in linked text. I do not see that they have Paket or sonar in list of equipment and weapons.

    you're correct, I must have  swapped text. My bad.


    BTW This is not modernized  Gepard But 22800? Then there is 2x6  Paket

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pretty much this ^^^

    Karakurt is not supposed to hunt for submarines

    actually in ASW edition it is. That's the idea to cover nuclear sub bases clear from US "lurkers"


    PapaD wrote:
    If this happens it still needs something to defend itself with which is where Paket-NK comes in

    A self-defense tool, nothing more

    not only, but also.  Thy IMOH suppose to be weapon carriers Paket/Rocket-torpedo Kalibr - but for long haunts they need to get data form other sources.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:52 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pretty much this ^^^

    Karakurt is not supposed to hunt for submarines

    actually in ASW edition it is. That's the idea to cover nuclear sub bases clear from US "lurkers" ....

    It would be extremely stupid attempt at soluton

    If they want to have dedicated anti-sub ship then they should either buy more Steregushi corvettes or modify Bykov patrol ships to carry anti-sub equipment

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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:05 am

    If they want to have dedicated anti-sub ship then they should either buy more Steregushi corvettes or modify Bykov patrol ships to carry anti-sub equipment

    It's a coastal anti sub ship. Steregouchshi is too big for such role and bykov is too advanced/stealth which is useless for ASW. Seregoushchy are multirole ships anf already have such capability.

    Karakurt is small and a gard target for torpedo. It has enough room for a variable deapth sonar or a sonar array. The idea is to have a cost effective ASW dedicated ship to protect navy bases from enemy subs.

    Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

    And they already said they will use it as a plateform for small ASW ship.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:54 am

    Isos wrote:Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

    Given that enemy subs could carry AShMs (and would use them to supress ASW vessels) it makes sense to give a coastal ASW vessel a self-defense capability. Eliminating the Pantsir would be a big mistake.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:08 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

    Given that enemy subs could carry AShMs (and would use them to supress ASW vessels) it makes sense to give a coastal ASW vessel a self-defense capability.  Eliminating the Pantsir would be a big mistake.

    Or long range drones. Definitely Pantsir is a good option.



    Isos wrote:Karakurt is small and a gard target for torpedo. It has enough room for a variable deapth sonar or a sonar array. The idea is to have a cost effective ASW dedicated ship to protect navy bases from enemy subs.

    Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

    And they already said they will use it as a plateform for small ASW ship.


    if you look at the pic there is 16 UKSK cells and 12 packet tubes in ASW version...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:11 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    It would be extremely stupid attempt at soluton

    If they want to have dedicated anti-sub ship then they should either buy more Steregushi corvettes or modify Bykov patrol ships to carry anti-sub equipment



    With Bykov I agree cheers cheers cheers But not with Steregushi really. It is 2x as expensive as 22800, slover and not really better wrt range/autonomy/buyancy.
    Besides 22800 are already built 3x per year.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:20 pm

    if you look at the pic there is 16 UKSK cells and 12 packet tubes in ASW version...

    Who told you it was the ASW version ? They said they will make an ASW version just a few months ago. This version is just a proposed concept like many other concept that were never even looked at by MoD nothig more.

    They are working on many different naval drones that could be carried by a small ship like karakurt and this one don't carry any. Drones will be for sure a request when they will order an ASW version.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:25 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

    Given that enemy subs could carry AShMs (and would use them to supress ASW vessels) it makes sense to give a coastal ASW vessel a self-defense capability.  Eliminating the Pantsir would be a big mistake.

    Not entirely true.

    They would operate in coastal areas. If an enemy sub fires a antiship missiles it will be heard, detected and the position will be send to naval aviation and a bunch of ka-27 will come to destroy the sub.

    It will also operate with bigger corvettes like steregouchshy providing air defence cover.

    All their small ship don't need to be multirole. Buyan-M have a weak air defence too consisting of 4 igla yet they buy them. And the 76mm gun can be very good against missiles with a good radar, fcs and fuzed air burst munitions.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:09 pm

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 34 7677612_original
    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3892028.html

    If built, besides being an escort & force multiplier, it could also act as a stand by ocean tug for the Adm. K!
    Also a version of long endurance OPV for the CG could be useful.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:37 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:

    If built, besides being an escort & force multiplier, it could also act as a stand by ocean tug for the Adm. K!
    Also a version of long endurance OPV for the CG could be useful.


    OPV is already 22160, good design and tug ekhm unlikely tongue tongue tongue
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:40 am

    They would operate in coastal areas. If an enemy sub fires a antiship missiles it will be heard, detected and the position will be send to naval aviation and a bunch of ka-27 will come to destroy the sub.

    The RuN isn't going to throw away ASW vessels as disposable bait to reveal the presence of hostile SSGNs. A response by land-based helos would take time and the enemy can run deep and quiet to avoid the response.

    It will also operate with bigger corvettes like steregouchshy providing air defence cover.

    The idea of having small ASW ships is that they are cheap and plentiful and can cover a large area (important for Russia and its vast nothern coastline).  It doesn't make sense to require small ASW ships to operate under cover of an AD corvette or larger escort to protect it from the enemies it is supposed to be hunting...  For a start, their won't be enough corvettes to cover all maritime areas that require ASW coverage.

    All their small ship don't need to be multirole. Buyan-M have a weak air defence too consisting of 4 igla yet they buy them.


    Buyan & Buyan-M have minimal AD as they were built for inland waters like Caspian Flotilla, a low threat environment. Thats not applicable for a open coast ASW that might have to face an SSGN (or a strike aircraft from a CBG). Soviet-era small ASW like the Grisha class (~1000T) carried an SA-N-4.

    And the 76mm gun can be very good against missiles with a good radar, fcs and fuzed air burst munitions.

    As a principle, modern ship artillery could serve a AD/AMD purpose, but I'd hate to have to rely on it if a Seawolf or Virginia was throwing a brace of Harpoons my way....






    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:57 am


    Is there a requirement by Russian Navy to have anti-sub ship without helicopter?

    How close to coast do they expect them to operate if helicopter isn't a necessity?

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:40 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Is there a requirement by Russian Navy to have anti-sub ship without helicopter?

    How close to coast do they expect them to operate if helicopter isn't a necessity?

    Small ASW will probably carry a helo drone. Not as good as a manned helo but better than zip and doesn't require anywhere near the shipside real estate.

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