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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor on Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:43 pm

    Isos wrote:Must have happened one day or another. Contrary to what many say here, delays are an issue for russian navy.

    Rob Lee
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    The Russian MoD has taken the Pella Shipyard to court seeking 2.93 billion rubles over the delayed delivery of the  Mytishchi Project 22800 Karakurt-class small missile ship.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1214328586037071873


    Taunting responsibility will cut delivery time.

    Basically if you are constantly improving delivery time you have two choices by which you can observe such situation. You can say as you have that Russians are constantly

    lagging when than is being said as per western press say it is because they are lazy drunks and so so or you can observe the direction of the arrow in which the process is heading

    and than observe the method by which is happening.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:11 pm

    More pics from the new model.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 33 22800m10
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 33 22800m11
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 33 22800m12
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:22 pm


    That's a damn fine missile ship, this is good approach thumbsup
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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:08 pm

    A lot of firepower in a small space.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:34 pm

    Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.
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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:44 pm

    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.
    Isn't it a pretty good ship for the Baltic, Black Sea and eastern Med? Plus a good export prospect, most navies do not need 'blue water' capabilities.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:54 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.
    Isn't it a pretty good ship for the Baltic, Black Sea and eastern Med? Plus a good export prospect, most navies do not need 'blue water' capabilities.

    All of those seas are surounded by powerful countries with very good airforces. A missile boat won't last a lot against them. And frankly speaking now they can have truck mounted UKSK making the missile boats not a critical need.

    Agree for export they are pretty nice.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:39 pm

    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Wut? So you think the Osa, Nanuchka and Tarantul missile boats have all been a waste of time? Or that the current 22800s are useless?

    Missile boats bring anti-surface capability to home waters. Big punch, small & inexpensive vessel. Sure they don't do layered AD, and don't do ASW, but on a hull with less than 1000T displacement what do you want?

    You just can't pls some people.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:02 pm

    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Those frigates will last even less against enemy airforce since they are much bigger targets

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:41 pm

    They will be rather more use in and around Russian waters than any star destroyers they eventually produce.

    For most jobs they are more than adequate and actually quite modern and up to date with fire power comparable to much larger ships in those big powerful NATO navies that keep getting mentioned...

    Of course compared with them... these boats will be more than enough because when those big NATO super navies come to engage then MiG-31s with hypersonic 2K km range missiles to eliminate the problem and they can continue doing what they were doing...
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:09 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Wut?  So you think the Osa, Nanuchka and Tarantul missile boats have all been a waste of time? Or that the current 22800s are useless?

    Missile boats bring anti-surface capability to home waters. Big punch, small & inexpensive vessel.  Sure they don't do layered AD, and don't do ASW, but on a hull with less than 1000T displacement what do you want?

    You just can't pls some people.

    This one is armed like a little frigate. It won't be cheap.

    Look at missile boat combat history. They are easy targets for airforces. They are usefull when you can protect them with bigger ships.

    Those frigates will last even less against enemy airforce since they are much bigger targets

    If they are armed with 9m96 they can engage the enemy fighters. Modern frigates haveba rcs of a small fishing boat. They are not bigger target and this ship is clearly not stealthy.
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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:33 am

    Fully agree with Isos.

    This ship will have  big RCS, even classic Karakut doesn't look to be very stealthy.

    This version instead to improve that, make it even worse.

    Ship is good armed but in small space. It has at least two additional weapon systems and will need to have sonar as well. All of that need more crew and more space for equipment,  crew and supplies. Electric production should be significantly increased, and it would need stronger power plant.


    Do we now dimensions and displacement? It should be at least 1200t. It have more armament then 22380 but withouth helicopter. So crew cannot be small.



    But we will see, if RuNavy adopt this class we have to believe that they know better then we do Smile


    Last edited by marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:41 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Wut?  So you think the Osa, Nanuchka and Tarantul missile boats have all been a waste of time? Or that the current 22800s are useless?

    Missile boats bring anti-surface capability to home waters. Big punch, small & inexpensive vessel.  Sure they don't do layered AD, and don't do ASW, but on a hull with less than 1000T displacement what do you want?

    You just can't pls some people.

    Why you think it will be cheap? Steel plates are cheapest part of ship. Weapons and electronic make them expensive and this ship have asw weapons and equipment in addition to already existing weapons and equipment.  So it will have all expensive stuff but in cramped ship without good range and endurance.

    Putting so many weapons and equipment on small ship doesn't look rational to me. Warship first have to be good ship. This one will be still small, with very limited range and endurance, but quite expensive.


    Last edited by marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:51 am

    But we will see, if RuNavy adopt this class we have to believe that they know better then we do Smile

    Right. They never said it's gonna be build or ordered.
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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:52 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Those frigates will last even less against enemy airforce since they are much bigger targets


    Size doesn't make them bigger target if they are more stealthy do you agree? This concept isn't stealth only Paket launcher probably have bigger rcs then most modern stealth frigates.


    I wouldn't bet that this ship is for RuNavy.

    It isn't stealthy. It isn't cheap. Small range and endurance.

    EDIT> and there are some interesting statements about big new order for 20380 class, and that would be my bet. Just to improve them. Russia need navy that can go away from shores.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:28 am

    Look at missile boat combat history. They are easy targets for airforces. They are usefull when you can protect them with bigger ships.

    Yeah, but that combat history of them being vulnerable on their own is largely based around small boats with small short range sensors and generally armed with not much more than MANPADS in terms of self defence missiles meaning most anti ship weapons allow aircraft of all types to sit outside their effective range and potentially keep firing till they are sunk, but actually most of the time with their lack of situational awareness having them sunk pretty easily from long range.

    This ships in comparison will have information from other platforms including subs and satellites and land bases and ships nearby and they will be providing their own information to add to that information bank.

    the missiles they could be fitted with would include S-350s or at the very worst naval versions of TOR which means 150km, 60km, or 16km range missiles... which is not very shabby at all.

    Modern frigates haveba rcs of a small fishing boat.

    Big enough...

    There are no invisible stealthy ships as far as I am aware... except submarines of course...

    Why you think it will be cheap? Steel plates are cheapest part of ship. Weapons and electronic make them expensive and this ship have asw weapons and equipment in addition to already existing weapons and equipment. So it will have all expensive stuff but in cramped ship without good range and endurance.

    All new Russian ships are expected to be fully multi role and multi role systems will be fitted to all vessels... bigger ships have bigger systems incrementally more launch tubes and larger calibre guns, but they all need to be able to do a bit of everything... which means for effective anti sub use you might need a couple of smaller ships to do the job a single bigger ship could do.

    Putting so many weapons and equipment on small ship doesn't look rational to me. Warship first have to be good ship. This one will be still small, with very limited range and endurance, but quite expensive.

    It wont need long range or endurance if it operates around Russia... but its fire power would release a much bigger boat for other duties further away if needed.

    Russia need navy that can go away from shores.

    It does but for your average family you might have a motor scooter or two for zipping around town easily and cheaply, while a normal Sedan for a work car for husband, while wife might drive the holiday adventure four wheel drive SUV as a shopping wagon and to go for coffee because its enormous size will make her feel safe.

    Why would Russia want scooters with huge saddle bags so you can go on long trips or tours in? Surely you go on long trips in the SUV because you can get all your gear in it and the skis or surf board on top or you get some big heavy touring bikes.

    Corvettes are motor scooters... don't try to turn them into touring bikes... a car or even a camper van make much more sense for that role...

    ie Corvettes for in and around Russian waters... Frigates too... and Destroyers and Cruisers for further away later on.
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    Post  Azi on Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:48 am

    marat wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Pretty useless. Better put money on frigates since it is armed like a frigate. Could at least go further and be usefull for payroling far away.

    The stealth shape are no longer stealth also.

    Those frigates will last even less against enemy airforce since they are much bigger targets


    Size doesn't make them bigger target if they are more stealthy do you agree? This concept isn't stealth only Paket launcher probably have bigger rcs then most modern stealth frigates.


    I wouldn't bet that this ship is for RuNavy.

    It isn't stealthy. It isn't cheap. Small range and endurance.

    EDIT> and there are some interesting statements about big new order for 20380 class, and that would be my bet. Just to improve them. Russia need navy that can go away from shores.
    Sorry...but project 22800 have a reduced RCS. And Karakurt-class corvettes are not really big.

    Karakurt-class is stealthy from frontal aspect and I doubt that only the Paket launcher will have that high RCS to put in a class of Iowa battleship.
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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:13 am

    All new Russian ships are expected to be fully multi role and multi role systems will be fitted to all vessels... bigger ships have bigger systems incrementally more launch tubes and larger calibre guns, but they all need to be able to do a bit of everything... which means for effective anti sub use you might need a couple of smaller ships to do the job a single bigger ship could do.

    Not so true, it have more VLS UKSK and same no of PAKET and ciws as 20385 , only main gun is smaller. But sensors have to be same .So price will be big and main maritime abilities of this ship will be significantly lower.

    It wont need long range or endurance if it operates around Russia... but its fire power would release a much bigger boat for other duties further away if needed.
    …..
    It does but for your average family you might have a motor scooter or two for zipping around town easily and cheaply, while a normal Sedan for a work car for husband, while wife might drive the holiday adventure four wheel drive SUV as a shopping wagon and to go for coffee because its enormous size will make her feel safe.

    Why would Russia want scooters with huge saddle bags so you can go on long trips or tours in? Surely you go on long trips in the SUV because you can get all your gear in it and the skis or surf board on top or you get some big heavy touring bikes.

    Corvettes are motor scooters... don't try to turn them into touring bikes... a car or even a camper van make much more sense for that role...

    ie Corvettes for in and around Russian waters... Frigates too... and Destroyers and Cruisers for further away later on.

    With all of those weapons and respective equipment this ship we be expensive. If you want car examples, it is same as you install engine of sport car in car that you want to you for daily shoping in neighborhood. If they need costal ship basic karakut is fine, and they will ned some cheap ASW ships as replacement for Grisha and Parchim ( maybe on same platform as Karakut but without UKSK and having RBU and Paket).


    You will have to pack at least 50 members of crew in this ship. Karakut have 39 but 20380 have 90. This ship lack helicopter and have smaller main gun but it have all other weapon systems as 20380 or even 20385 ( UKSK, PAKET 2 CIWS and SAM). So weapons of 2500t ship putted in 1000t ship. This doesn't look a bit problematic for you?


    Just look at that picture there are no space for living, for sleeping for eating.

    In bow in front of gun you could place some smaller store as most of this space will be used for anchor and its equipment . In Koni class on which i served in that cramped space (and Koni is 2000t ship) in front of gun there were very small store space for paint, ropes etc. Then there is gun, below it, it will be ammo, and on side of gun there will be no space for living as hull is narrowing fast here. Then there is section for C&C which have to be increased for space for sonar room and Paket C&C room. Below this section you will have engine room (my guess as UKSK are very deep so it is unlikely that engine will be below UKSK. Then UKSK, and stern with SAM and Paket.

    You have to have food and water for 50 man, fuel, electronic equipment, generators, toilets'... shower rooms, kitchen dinning room, sleeping rooms...

    I do not know if you have some sailor experience? Koni was 2000t and it was very cramped inside. Did you ever live on ship?


    If this ship will be so good armed and expensive, why are you saving money on cheapest BUT most important thing for a ship? You are saving in its maritime quality and crew space. You will have cramped ship with no space for crew without range and endurance.





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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:25 am

    [quote="Azi"


    Sorry...but project 22800 have a reduced RCS. And Karakurt-class corvettes are not really big.

    Karakurt-class is stealthy from frontal aspect and I doubt that only the Paket launcher will have that high RCS to put in a class of Iowa battleship.
    [/quote]

    Reduced, yes but not fully stealth, just look at Visby class or Zumwalt.

    Even gun barrels are hidden as  rcs of the gun will make all other rcs reduction for them (even in such a  huge ship as Zumwalt is)  useless. So pure size of ship is not so important.

    And Paket launchers are far...far bigger then gun barrels or you disagree with that?  

    Also look at all of that anchor equipment  which is not hidden below deck, and then ask your self why full stealth designs have clear upper deck.


    Last edited by marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:38 am

    Guys quallity is more important then quantity. Especially in Navy. 100 OSA class ships will not keep USN or JMSDF 1000 milles away from Russian shore.

    It is better to have full stealth and good maritime quality ship with 8 UKSK.

    Then "reduced" rcs (even if it is not so reduced at all) cramped ship with 16 UKSK.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:52 am

    They are introducing more VLS on their ship because they make them multirole so it will need to carry anti ship missiles, cruise land attack missiles, torpedo missiles, hypersonic missiles .... abd be avble to do any mission without degrading capabilities for other mission. With 8 cells it is impossible. You can only 2 or 3 missile for each mission which is not enough.

    But a missile boat doesn't need all that. They will load it fast with the missiles it needs and send it to launch them. So 8 UKSK cells is enough. They will have huge numbers of missile boat (karkurt, buyan m, older soviet ships), diesel sub armed with kalibr and shore based antiship missile batteries to overwhelm any task force attacking their mainland. And lets not forget tu22M and su-30 from naval aviation.

    And don't foret that before fighting those missile boats they will face yasen, Kirovs, slavas, oscars and Gorshkovs ...

    Only US navy could face such situation. And they will be badly damage before coming near russia.

    Expensive missile boats is not what they need.
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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:12 am

    More VLS is great off course, but on much bigger ships. And here they are adding not only number of VSL  (which wouldnt need aditional electronic equipment and crew) but also  ASW weapon line which need place for sonars, stronger electric supply for sonars Paket and c&c equipment, additional crew members…

    This ship will hardly be part of RuNavy. But we will see.

    Just as example, this is project for purely ASW export  ship> http://mil.today/2016/Weapons31

    http://www.almaz-kb.ru/en/products/military/corvettes-small-rocket-ships-and-missile-boats/malyy-protivolodochnyy-korabl-proekta-23420/

    Armament is much smaller  but dimensions are much bigger > According to the project, the ship displaces 1,300 tons, is 75 meters long and 13 meters wide. Maximum speed is expected to be 30 knots. Crew would be 60 (helicopter not included).

    I like this project of ASW small ship as replacement for currently very old ASW forces of RuNavy, it could be cheap and very usefull for all fleets and especially for PAF which (at least "in my book")need a lot of ASW/Escort ships to keep Ohotsk See safe from let say Chinese or JMSDF submarines.

    And still some members thing that you could just add ASW and 8 additional UKSK in Karakut, increase displacement let say to be  1000t and have 40crew members.  Very Happy
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:15 am

    marat wrote:More VLS is great off course, but on much bigger ships. And here they are adding not only number of VSL (which wouldnt need aditional electronic equipment and crew) but also ASW weapon line which need place for sonars, stronger electric supply for sonars Paket and c&c equipment, additional crew members…

    Not anti-sub weapon but anti-torpedo protection

    You can't really hunt subs with Paket-NK and besides helicopter is a weapon of choice for that stuff in this day and age

    And they don't need fancy sonar just some basic setup to know if torpedo is coming at them

    It's about extra survivability not about new ship class

    This here is what they will most likely build after they wrap up current orders of Karakurts

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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:07 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:More VLS is great off course, but on much bigger ships. And here they are adding not only number of VSL  (which wouldnt need aditional electronic equipment and crew) but also  ASW weapon line which need place for sonars, stronger electric supply for sonars Paket and c&c equipment, additional crew members…

    Not anti-sub weapon but anti-torpedo protection

    You can't really hunt subs with Paket-NK and besides helicopter is a weapon of choice for that stuff in this day and age

    And they don't need fancy sonar just some basic setup to know if torpedo is coming at them

    It's about extra survivability not about new ship class

    This here is what they will most likely build after they wrap up current orders of Karakurts


    Paket is antisub/antitorpedo weapon. It is ANTISUBMARINE SYSTEM (as first role) with anti torpedo capabilities (as second role)

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/paket-e-nk/




    The Paket-E/NK ASW system with anti-torpedo capability is designed to engage submarines and torpedoes within ship's close-in range.

    Effective anti-submarine defence zone, m
    up to 10000
    Effective anti-torpedo defence zone, m
    100-800

    And yes it need to have sonar and dedicated crew.

    If you want to "castrate" it and make it just antitorpedo system you could load only antitorpedo torpedo's of course, but that isn't wisest thing to do. To have same cost, same space and weight, same crew and to refuse to use full potential of weapon that you have.

    But your point is true, even with Paket Karakut will not be good in ASW, but that's one argument more against adding Paket.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:47 pm

    True, Paket could stay or go but main thing is that with ramping up of cruise missile production and use it makes perfect sense to move to ships with larger capacity

    8 cells were good enough for starter series now comes time to gradually enlarge it

    And using strictly anti-torpedo load in Paket is still a good idea in my book, makes ship safer despite adds hassle




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