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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian

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    Post  TheArmenian Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:52 am

    chicken wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:

    In other news, the first unit(s) will have the PALASH gun/missile system. Later units will receive the naval PANTSYR gun/missile system once it becomes available.

    Does the Palash missiles now work? I thought it still had problems.

    It works on the Vietnamese frigates.



    Last edited by TheArmenian on Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:53 am

    hoom wrote:
    the first unit(s) will have the PALASH gun/missile system
    OOoh I had thought they should do that thumbsup You got a source for it? I can't find anything.

    It is even on Wikipedia:
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0_22800

    By the way: http://www.oborona.ru/includes/periodics/navy/2015/0730/153716373/detail.shtml
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:01 pm

    Hmm, not sure I buy that since multiple more recent statements, official renders etc show the first 2-3 have 2* AK-630.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:06 pm

    hoom wrote:Hmm, not sure I buy that since multiple more recent statements, official renders etc show the first 2-3 have 2* AK-630.

    Those early renders are completely meaningless. Glorified concept art.

    We now have actual info. First one Palash, others Pantsir.

    Speaking of AA there were naval tests of Tor M2 system on Grigorevich frigate and they seem to be satisfied with results. What are the odds of Tors ending up on smaller vessels like Karakurts?

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 6 4017717_original

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 6 4018055_original

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2510628.html
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    Post  miroslav Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:Hmm, not sure I buy that since multiple more recent statements, official renders etc show the first 2-3 have 2* AK-630.

    Those early renders are completely meaningless. Glorified concept art.

    We now have actual info. First one Palash, others Pantsir.

    Speaking of AA there were naval tests of Tor M2 system on Grigorevich frigate and they seem to be satisfied with results. What are the odds of Tors ending up on smaller vessels like Karakurts?

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 6 4017717_original

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 6 4018055_original

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2510628.html

    I just saw the video from the test, and holly fuck that's cool. Finally some one is making system like these, modular and powerful. Its almost like drag and drop elements for arming ships. This will give them the capability to arm any ship with good AA, from cargo ship to cruiser that didn't had god point defense missiles (like Slava class for instance).
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:05 pm

    We now have actual info. First one Palash, others Pantsir.
    No, the quote is from a 2015 article quoting a military show brochure/rep.

    Google translate wrote:Based on the information obtained at the forum "Army-2015",... The armament will consist of a 100- or 76-mm automatic gun mount universal antiaircraft missiles and gun-complex "Carapace-M" or "palm".


    This will give them the capability to arm any ship with good AA
    Thing is its not that great, 15km quoted range while Pantsir gets 20km & has guns too.
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    Post  miroslav Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:15 pm

    hoom wrote:
    This will give them the capability to arm any ship with good AA
    Thing is its not that great, 15km quoted range while Pantsir gets 20km & has guns too.

    Pantsir requires modification to the ship's structure, meaning, metal working, cutting, welding, wiring, basically long time in the dry dock.... but you get more fire power, just like new Tor would be for larger combat ships, a fully integrated system with 32-64-... missiles.

    As i mentioned in the thread "Russian navy status and news" the point is to have a version that you jut bolt on and connect the power cable to and potentially a data link connected to the ships main radar if it is a combat ship, the only real limitation is the limiter number of missiles, if they get that to 12 -16 per module, great.



    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:28 pm

    hoom wrote:.............

    This will give them the capability to arm any ship with good AA
    Thing is its not that great, 15km quoted range while Pantsir gets 20km & has guns too.

    Palash is stopgap. Naval Pantsir is expected standard.

    Still if they can get that naval Tor on these ships then it will be game changer. They go from bare basic last resort AA system to something that can engage both ships and missiles at pretty large distances.

    All that on 650 ton ship. That would really be something.


    Last edited by PapaDragon on Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:56 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Wrong data)
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:49 pm

    Pantsir has the advantage of range over TOR.
    But because of its configuration, the Pantsir missile can not engage target at ranges under 4 km. That's why Pantsir has guns. But guns are less effective than missiles in engaging smaller targets.
    TOR missile can engage at ranges of as little as 1.2 km, it just lacks the range of Pantsir.

    By the way, Karakurts are 800 T (not 650 T).

    Edit: Another advantage of TOR is that it uses vertical launchers. Meaning that it can be installed in a stealthy configuration. Pantsir will just worsen the Radar Cross Section of the ship.

    It is almost certain that navalized TOR will be installed on some vessels. Just don't know which ones. My bet is on the Project 22160 patrol ships.
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    Post  kvs Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:06 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Pantsir has the advantage of range over TOR.
    But because of its configuration, the Pantsir missile can not engage target at ranges under 4 km. That's why Pantsir has guns. But guns are less effective than missiles in engaging smaller targets.
    TOR missile can engage at ranges of as little as 1.2 km, it just lacks the range of Pantsir.

    By the way, Karakurts are 800 T (not 650 T).

    Edit: Another advantage of TOR is that it uses vertical launchers. Meaning that it can be installed in a stealthy configuration. Pantsir will just worsen the Radar Cross Section of the ship.

    It is almost certain that navalized TOR will be installed on some vessels. Just don't know which ones. My bet is on the Project 22160 patrol ships.

    Blending the Tor missiles with the Pantsir missiles in a single system seems like a trivial solution to the range problem.
    Leave the guns for the Kashtan system.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:..............

    By the way, Karakurts are 800 T (not 650 T).

    Edit: Another advantage of TOR is that it uses vertical launchers. Meaning that it can be installed in a stealthy configuration. Pantsir will just worsen the Radar Cross Section of the ship.

    It is almost certain that navalized TOR will be installed on some vessels. Just don't know which ones. My bet is on the Project 22160 patrol ships.

    I also confused Tor with Buk. Idiot...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:36 pm

    But because of its configuration, the Pantsir missile can not engage target at ranges under 4 km. That's why Pantsir has guns. But guns are less effective than missiles in engaging smaller targets.
    TOR missile can engage at ranges of as little as 1.2 km, it just lacks the range of Pantsir.

    Where did you find these numbers confused
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:20 pm

    Isos wrote:
    But because of its configuration, the Pantsir missile can not engage target at ranges under 4 km. That's why Pantsir has guns. But guns are less effective than missiles in engaging smaller targets.
    TOR missile can engage at ranges of as little as 1.2 km, it just lacks the range of Pantsir.

    Where did you find these numbers confused

    While most armchair generals look for "maximum range", I look for "engagement envelope".

    The first stage of the Pantsir is a booster that accelerates the missile and is jetisionned after 2 seconds of flight. The missile becomes controllable after that. The TOR missile has a different configuration and becomes controllable earlier.

    The minimum engagement ranges I quoted for the Pantsyr and TOR are a bit pessimistic. In theory, both missiles can do better (with TOR being superior in that respect). But, in the real world, "in theory" does not exist.
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    Post  hoom Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:57 am

    because of its configuration, the Pantsir missile can not engage target at ranges under 4 km. That's why Pantsir has guns.
    Interesting point on the min-range, I'd say they went with the booster on Pantsir because they have guns though rather than guns to fill the engagement hole.

    It is almost certain that navalized TOR will be installed on some vessels. Just don't know which ones. My bet is on the Project 22160 patrol ships.
    22160 definitely seems like a good prospect for naval Tor, been trying to work out where they could put it.
    Previously released art of Naval Tor could fit on foredeck in place of the gun, that could be possible for an AA version of Karakurt, also 22160.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 6 26-4773845-1475450926-1-kopiya
    Otherwise the only thing that seems possible without a big superstructure rework is containerised in the module section but that'd need the engagement radar to elevate somehow. Not impossible but a bit awkward & I've seen no sign of any concepts like that.

    Over on Balancer forum they've been considering similar question but more on how to fit it on a 11356 to give it a 2nd AA layer
    This config seems fairly possible
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 6 26-4774665-11356tor
    But the main problem for 11356 is still the engine issue, they could at least as easily put Palash/naval Pantsir if they wanted to.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:17 am

    They have different core roles...

    The Pantsir is based on the Grison/Tunguska system and is primarily designed to be a very very fast missile that takes out enemy attack helos and attack aircraft before they fire their anti armour weapons.

    Minimum range for Kashtan with missiles is 1.5km, while for land based TOR it is 1km AFAIK.

    TOR was designed from the outset to engage small fast and possibly manouvering targets, including munitions like missiles and bombs.

    I have read that there are two versions of Pantsir being developed for the navy with one for upgrades of existing types and another system that is more stealthy.

    The Pantsirs missiles are very long but there is no reason they could not be vertically launched and directed towards the target before the main booster fires...

    The Kashtan system does take up space on several deck levels including loading mechanisms for usually 24 reload rounds.

    In comparison the Duet system is simply bolted to the deck and power is connected.

    For a CIWS maximum range is not the important thing... it is ability to engage targets rapidly and accurately.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon May 15, 2017 10:39 pm


    Crimean Shipyard to Build 3 Missile Corvettes by 2020 - Deputy Defense Minister

    https://sputniknews.com/russia/201703171051695087-crimean-shipyard-corvettes/

    ........"Three corvettes will be constructed at the More shipyard. The technological cycle of construction will take about 32 months. We expect the construction to be completed in 2018, 2019, and 2020, respectively. Laying of the third ship's keel will take place approximately at the end of this year," Borisov said during the keel laying of the second missile corvette, the Okhotsk.....

    ........Another 18 Project 22800 corvettes will be built by St. Petersburg's Pella Shipyard before 2022, while some others are being constructed by the Zelenodolsk Shipyard in Tatarstan, according to the Russian navy....

    Zelenodolsk part is probably faulty now that they greenlit more Buyans there
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Mon May 15, 2017 10:52 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Crimean Shipyard to Build 3 Missile Corvettes by 2020 - Deputy Defense Minister

    https://sputniknews.com/russia/201703171051695087-crimean-shipyard-corvettes/

    ........"Three corvettes will be constructed at the More shipyard. The technological cycle of construction will take about 32 months. We expect the construction to be completed in 2018, 2019, and 2020, respectively. Laying of the third ship's keel will take place approximately at the end of this year," Borisov said during the keel laying of the second missile corvette, the Okhotsk.....

    ........Another 18 Project 22800 corvettes will be built by St. Petersburg's Pella Shipyard before 2022, while some others are being constructed by the Zelenodolsk Shipyard in Tatarstan, according to the Russian navy....

    Zelenodolsk part is probably faulty now that they greenlit more Buyans there

    AFAIK, Zelenodolsk was given a contract. But the Karakurts are not going to be built there.
    Instead they will be built in Zaliv (Kerch) which is controlled by Zelenodolsk.

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue May 16, 2017 3:19 am


    So that would be second shipyard in Crimea that is being reactivated for naval construction? Nice.
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    Post  hoom Fri May 19, 2017 4:44 pm

    First Karakut delayed to 2018. http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B02/
    They're blaming the need to do extra tests due to it being a first of class which is not an exactly convincing excuse Neutral (probably will cause delay but that should have been in the original schedule...)
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    Post  franco Fri May 19, 2017 4:48 pm

    hoom wrote:First Karakut delayed to 2018. http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B02/
    They're blaming the need to do extra tests due to it being a first of class which is not an exactly convincing excuse Neutral (probably will cause delay but that should have been in the original schedule...)

    It is better to do it right... haste makes waste! Smile
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri May 19, 2017 4:49 pm

    hoom wrote:First Karakut delayed to 2018. http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B02/
    They're blaming the need to do extra tests due to it being a first of class which is not an exactly convincing excuse Neutral (probably will cause delay but that should have been in the original schedule...)

    No this is reasonable the first of any class of ship is going to have unforeseen issues, this is a natural part of ship building. If this was like the t5h one and they still did this then okay I'd see your point there.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri May 19, 2017 5:04 pm


    Also, this is first combat vessel built by Pella

    I assume that delay is due to lack of experience with installation of armaments

    It's expected
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    Post  TheArmenian Mon May 29, 2017 6:55 am

    Recent photo of the first Pr. 22800 at Pella shipyard.
    Construction is pretty much done, let the fitting begin.
    Launched is expected this summer.

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 6 CDICC0q
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    Post  hoom Mon May 29, 2017 6:57 am

    Bah ninja'd I was literally posting that at the same time tongue

    Is looking good Very Happy
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    Post  TheArmenian Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:28 am

    http://iz.ru/news/722462

    Missile ship URAGAN of pr. 22800 class will be launched later this year.
    It can operate in high seas and is not confined to the littoral areas, thus diminishing Navy operational costs.
    Will carry Pantsir-M module with 32 missiles including Hermes-K which can be guided by drones.

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