Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

Bah ninja'd I was literally posting that at the same time

Is looking good

http://iz.ru/news/722462

Missile ship URAGAN of pr. 22800 class will be launched later this year.
It can operate in high seas and is not confined to the littoral areas, thus diminishing Navy operational costs.
Will carry Pantsir-M module with 32 missiles including Hermes-K which can be guided by drones.

Pella shipyard



https://twitter.com/Rogozin/status/875653517901414401

Rapidly getting ship-shape

Another pic via Balancers, 2nd boat behind

Couple of pics during Rogozin visit to Pella via Bastion-karpenko http://bastion-karpenko.ru/pella/

Pella can definitely build full-sized corvettes.I do hope they get to "graduate" to Derzkii class soon.

Some pics from More at Feodosia




Via Balancer this is apparently the engine unit for 22800, 3 per ship

Bunch of model pics from IMDS http://bastion-karpenko.ru/project-22800-imds-2017/

hoom wrote:Some pics from More at Feodosia

Via Balancer this is apparently the engine unit for 22800, 3 per ship

No need for import substitution for these babies. These star-shaped diesels have been built in St. Petersburg by Zvezda since the 1970s.
(http://www.zvezda.spb.ru/index.php/en/)

Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/

PapaDragon wrote:
Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/

Was about time, was always annoyed seeing German and South Korean cranes on Russian ships,

Militarov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/
........

Was about time, was always annoyed seeing German and South Korean cranes on Russian ships,

Wanna hear something funny? Reason I even noticed that crane might be relevant for warships is because I remembered that you had massive issues over some crane on some ship.

So problems were imported cranes right?

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Crane that will be installed on Karakurts:

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95610/
........

Was about time, was always annoyed seeing German and South Korean cranes on Russian ships,

Wanna hear something funny? Reason I even noticed that crane might be relevant for warships is because I remembered that you had massive issues over some crane on some ship.  

So problems were imported cranes right?

Yeah, majority of specialised lifting equipment in Russian armed forces (and Russia in general) is from import as factories that produced it mostly disappeared or produce things you could describe as relics.

Currently Russia for an example doesnt offer really adequate rescue lift winch for helicopters, so operators of Mi-17s often buy western ones for their Russian helicopters, which kinda ends up being quite comic. You can build a helicopter but you cant make damn wench. Seems things are changing for better.

I just dislike seeing Russian built military ship, and then you notice basically all of its auxilary equipment is foreign, from satelite dataling, to weather radar, cranes, mine-hunting robots, submersibles, inflatable boats... you cant build everything, whoever thinks its possible is nuts, but its not required for country big as Russia to import God damn cranes.

GarryB wrote:Of course, why buy a cheap effective system from another country when you can spend five times more and get an inferior model built at home... that is a good way forward...

You make it seem that because they use foreign components it is because they can't do it domestically.

Reality is not so black and white.

I would suspect sometimes it is corruption, but other times the foreign model is just better and cheaper.

Of course with US bullshit regarding sanctions it is nothing to do with pride, but simple practicality to have control of the sources of your equipment so we should thank the dumb fucks in Washington for doing their citizens out of export sales to Russia...

Why would worlds biggest country... with 145mil citizens... import cranes. Are you claiming such country has too little requirements for such product so its not economically justified to invest in such product or you are just liking to disagree with me just for sake of disagreeing as i see that is popular here as of late?

Yes, they are better, but why are they better? Why did they allow Germans (or whoever, depends on equipment) to be so much better? I hope you are following me here. Winch is not really peak of engineering, but its product that can be sold quite nicely, domestically and abroad. You think for an example that India wouldnt buy lets say 50 such devices for their Mi-8 fleet, why wouldnt they?

Serbia wanted one, yet one Russians offered wasnt adequate, yes tiny sale, but 100 and 1 country would buy it.

As i already said, i am not expecting nor do i belive in complete self sufficiency, as such model will never work, anywhere, however Russia (partially Soviet Union too) always allowed itself to depend on others, quite frequently on imports, in fields where it was not really required.

Okay, import Swedish tooling machines in 80s for submarine propeller production, its highly complex set of machines and tools, hard to master, but why in the name of God, would you allow yourself to import crane, winch, waterproof cloth, dental implants, cement, skiing googles, glasses and whatnot. Tho i was always hoping Russia will invest more heavily in tooling machine building, so they evade using literally almost completely German, US, Japanese and South Korean and as of recently Chinese production lines in 95% of their companies. You actually need to search quite alot to find company that has even universal lathe built in Russia these days, let alone some more complex machine. And those machines are supposed to be one of the cores of being sanction independent.

Tooling machine production is hard and mindblowingly complex, just building propper chuck for lathe is not an easy job, lets not even go further, but it brings many benefits on long run. Imagine Suhoi, Zvezda, Sevmash, Pela, Avtovaz.... everyone... not being dependent on machines and spare parts. Cant build own machine good enough in own design? Copy the motherfucker, strap Zdelano v Rus on 100/100 German design, just dont waste hard currency on import, you sell gas and oil that Germans use to build a lathe, than they sell overpriced lathe to you.

100% like Serbian old saying: "Gde si bio nigde, šta si radio, ništa".

This is not some weird intoxication, trolling or whatever some ppl here claim, this is my personal scream of despair over things that should be.

Anyways, nice seeing crane being developed hopefully it sees numerous applications.

Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).

Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.

Interesting
I wonder why BMPD used this image?

Seem to recall that was a competing design? Or might Zelenodolsk be making their own variant?

GarryB wrote:

Why would worlds biggest country... with 145mil citizens... import cranes.

Why would any country import cranes?

Why does the US import cheap clothing from China?

Why do big western companies build factories in China to make things for foreign markets?

Why can't they import cranes?

Are you claiming such country has too little requirements for such product so its not economically justified to invest in such product or you are just liking to disagree with me just for sake of disagreeing as i see that is popular here as of late?

Most countries on the planet import things but because you say so Russia is not allowed to?

The thing is that to be really successful a crane company would need a big market... selling some to the Russian military would not be a good enough reason because for the last 2 and a half decades they have not been buying much of anything... not really a good way to make a living.

The last decade of course has seen an up turn in requirement but as you mention when the military is just as happy to import products who will invest the time and money needed to develop it in Russia... and who is to say your company will get the contracts and not some guy down the road... sounds a pretty risky thing to me... even if you get the contract how much export work will that get you around the world?

Some maker in China that makes for half the planet can always undercut you even just for a short period for a few contracts to put you out of business...

Yes, they are better, but why are they better? Why did they allow Germans (or whoever, depends on equipment) to be so much better? I hope you are following me here. Winch is not really peak of engineering, but its product that can be sold quite nicely, domestically and abroad. You think for an example that India wouldnt buy lets say 50 such devices for their Mi-8 fleet, why wouldnt they?

Actually it is the Indians that are likely to look to French or German winches for their Russian equipment... look at their MiG-29Ks and Su-30MKIs filled with non Russian bits...

Serbia wanted one, yet one Russians offered wasnt adequate, yes tiny sale, but 100 and 1 country would buy i

So what you are saying is not that Russian does not make cranes and other items, it is that the buyers are finding better products elsewhere and buying them instead... isn't that how the free market economy is supposed to work?

however Russia (partially Soviet Union too) always allowed itself to depend on others, quite frequently on imports, in fields where it was not really required.

We are talking about cranes... not ICBM rocket motors or computer controllers for nuclear power plants.

What is your definition of required?

Tho i was always hoping Russia will invest more heavily in tooling machine building, so they evade using literally almost completely German, US, Japanese and South Korean and as of recently Chinese production lines in 95% of their companies.

Russia is investing in quite a lot of areas... mostly they licence produce proven foreign products... most of the time that is good enough.

It is hardly new... they licence produced the Gatling gun, the Maxim machine gun, the DC-3 transport plane, numerous trucks and vehicles.

Tooling machine production is hard and mindblowingly complex, just building propper chuck for lathe is not an easy job, lets not even go further, but it brings many benefits on long run. Imagine Suhoi, Zvezda, Sevmash, Pela, Avtovaz.... everyone... not being dependent on machines and spare parts. Cant build own machine good enough in own design? Copy the motherfucker, strap Zdelano v Rus on 100/100 German design, just dont waste hard currency on import, you sell gas and oil that Germans use to build a lathe, than they sell overpriced lathe to you.

They are producing their own computer components, and soon with printing technology the concept of manufacture will have changed completely... I am not disagreeing that in core areas they need to produce their own basics, from which they can develop their own... everything, but their biggest problem is getting things from the design stage to an in the shop product that can be sold to fund the development of new materials and equipment and things.

I have seen zero quantification of Russian manufacturing deficiencies and lack of capability from this troll clown. It is also
clear that he has negligible understanding of economics. Using off the shelf, cheaper components on large projects is de rigeur
around the world. This is how project budgets are constrained and deadlines are achieved. Building every part from scratch is
just not done for any project. This sort of development work is done in the background and adoption of new parts takes a while
since their initial cost is high (due to investment in development recovery). This troll tries to brow beat Russians about being inferior.
Looks like an inferiority complex is afflicting his brain. You can thank Boris Yeltsin the comprador drunk for depriving Russia of a lot of
industrial capacity and for making it dependent on imports. Thank God but Putin has fixed most of the mess, partly due to some inadvertent
sanctions help.

I will remind people of the troll's claims about the lack of Ukrainian (aka Banderastani) gas turbines being a show stopper for Russia.
Deafening silence on this from the clown now. No way, I am not going to forget this "brow beater" BS sanctimony and smear.

TheArmenian wrote:Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).

So that would officially be third shipyard where these vessels are built?

This is how you get things done.

We can now say that construction of missile ships has been permanently solved. Hopefully corvettes and frigates are next.

kvs wrote:.........
I will remind people of the troll's claims about the lack of Ukrainian (aka Banderastani) gas turbines being a show stopper for Russia.
Deafening silence on this from the clown now. No way, I am not going to forget this "brow beater" BS sanctimony and smear.

Dude what "sanctimony and smear" are you talking about?

Everyone with a brain knew that Ukrainian engines will be an issue for a while.

But everyone with a brain also knew that it will just be a temporary issue that will be resolved in couple of years.

And here we are couple of years later and issue has been resolved just as everyone said it would.

You are getting worked up over nothing.

PapaDragon wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Apparently, Zelenodolsk shipyard has laid down 2 Karakurts without announcement during 2016.
That brings the number of ships already laid down in Pella, More and Zelenodolsk to a total of 8.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2718855.html

From other sources, I am hearing the names are Tsiklon and Musson.
I am also hearing that these two may be actually building in Kerch (wihich belongs to Zelenodolsk).

So that would officially be third shipyard where these vessels are built?

This is how you get things done.

We can now say that construction of missile ships has been permanently solved. Hopefully corvettes and frigates are next.  

Actually, currently only the "Tsiklon" will be built at Zaliv Shipyard (Kerch), the remaining ones with awarded contracts ("Musson", "Passat", "Briz", "Tornado" and "Smerch") will be built at Zelenodolsk, according to Business-Gazeta.ru: https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/318577

Benya wrote:........
Actually, currently only the "Tsiklon" will be built at Zaliv Shipyard (Kerch), the remaining ones with awarded contracts ("Musson", "Passat", "Briz", "Tornado" and "Smerch") will be built at Zelenodolsk, according to Business-Gazeta.ru: https://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/318577

So that would mean that Karakurts are built simultaneously at Pella, More, Zaliv and Zelenodolsk?

GarryB wrote:

Why would worlds biggest country... with 145mil citizens... import cranes.

Why would any country import cranes?

Why does the US import cheap clothing from China?

Why do big western companies build factories in China to make things for foreign markets?

Why can't they import cranes?

Are you claiming such country has too little requirements for such product so its not economically justified to invest in such product or you are just liking to disagree with me just for sake of disagreeing as i see that is popular here as of late?

Most countries on the planet import things but because you say so Russia is not allowed to?

The thing is that to be really successful a crane company would need a big market... selling some to the Russian military would not be a good enough reason because for the last 2 and a half decades they have not been buying much of anything... not really a good way to make a living.

The last decade of course has seen an up turn in requirement but as you mention when the military is just as happy to import products who will invest the time and money needed to develop it in Russia... and who is to say your company will get the contracts and not some guy down the road... sounds a pretty risky thing to me... even if you get the contract how much export work will that get you around the world?

Some maker in China that makes for half the planet can always undercut you even just for a short period for a few contracts to put you out of business...

Yes, they are better, but why are they better? Why did they allow Germans (or whoever, depends on equipment) to be so much better? I hope you are following me here. Winch is not really peak of engineering, but its product that can be sold quite nicely, domestically and abroad. You think for an example that India wouldnt buy lets say 50 such devices for their Mi-8 fleet, why wouldnt they?

Actually it is the Indians that are likely to look to French or German winches for their Russian equipment... look at their MiG-29Ks and Su-30MKIs filled with non Russian bits...

Serbia wanted one, yet one Russians offered wasnt adequate, yes tiny sale, but 100 and 1 country would buy i

So what you are saying is not that Russian does not make cranes and other items, it is that the buyers are finding better products elsewhere and buying them instead... isn't that how the free market economy is supposed to work?

however Russia (partially Soviet Union too) always allowed itself to depend on others, quite frequently on imports, in fields where it was not really required.

We are talking about cranes... not ICBM rocket motors or computer controllers for nuclear power plants.

What is your definition of required?

Tho i was always hoping Russia will invest more heavily in tooling machine building, so they evade using literally almost completely German, US, Japanese and South Korean and as of recently Chinese production lines in 95% of their companies.

Russia is investing in quite a lot of areas... mostly they licence produce proven foreign products... most of the time that is good enough.

It is hardly new... they licence produced the Gatling gun, the Maxim machine gun, the DC-3 transport plane, numerous trucks and vehicles.

Tooling machine production is hard and mindblowingly complex, just building propper chuck for lathe is not an easy job, lets not even go further, but it brings many benefits on long run. Imagine Suhoi, Zvezda, Sevmash, Pela, Avtovaz.... everyone... not being dependent on machines and spare parts. Cant build own machine good enough in own design? Copy the motherfucker, strap Zdelano v Rus on 100/100 German design, just dont waste hard currency on import, you sell gas and oil that Germans use to build a lathe, than they sell overpriced lathe to you.

They are producing their own computer components, and soon with printing technology the concept of manufacture will have changed completely... I am not disagreeing that in core areas they need to produce their own basics, from which they can develop their own... everything, but their biggest problem is getting things from the design stage to an in the shop product that can be sold to fund the development of new materials and equipment and things.

Why? Because they would need to pay piece of cloth 20 times more if it was made in US. You do not need to pay something made in Russia 20 times more. And one thing is low profit production like clothes compared to machine building which is highly profitable.

And one thing is having YOUR factory in China that produces something from you, totallly different importing completely foreign items. Their design, materials...profit... And how many factories in China does Russia owns?

Russia is not "most of the planet". Russia aims to be super-power, is alleged industrial major power, space exploration hub and what not... and imports..well...everything. I am not sure how you do not see the problem there. One thing is if Namibia imports crane, or Ivory Coast, totally... totally different when Russia does it.

Yes, that is the problem, why are Germans better than Russians? What is exactly stopping Russians to make better rescue wench? Or you are saying they shouldnt, that its not important?

Substituting imported items should be wider project than it is, and is exceptional chance to earn money.

PapaDragon wrote:

So that would mean that Karakurts are built simultaneously at Pella, More, Zaliv and Zelenodolsk?

For a while, yes. If the MoD decides to order even more of them, they could be built there in Zaliv, or maybe at the Yaroslavl Shipyard, albeit it has a small shipbuilding capacity, it could also build corvettes with little to no efforts if necessary.