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    Russian Naval Aviation: News

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:04 pm

    mack8 wrote:It looks like they like the long rang of the Su-33, that's why they hang on to them. Possibly the upgraded ones will act as a sort of stop gap until the T-50K? (also long range)

    If the Su-33s have enough hours on them, given the cost of new aircraft (they have decided long ago restarting production of Su-33 is not feasible) an upgrade is comparatively very cost effective to significantly increase their potential for the remaining time they will be in service. They will probably upgrade about 12 or so imo if they'll go ahead.

    Yes that's the only thing I can think of, a combination of the Su-33s superior range, and the fact that the naval PAK-FA could be ready in less than a decade; and the only thing that's really needed is a stop-gap.

    The logic makes sense but overall I'm not convinced. Drop-tanks can be used to increase MiG-29K ranges, while the increasing minaturization and range-increases of anti-ship and anti-air weaponary means that todays MiG-29Ks will be able to hit all the same targets that Su-33s could 10-15 years ago anyway.
    Meanwhile in terms of the naval PAK-FA - there is no need to rush it at all. The naval PAK-FA should be developed for the next-generation of ACs, that will have more space for a large fighter like the PAK-FA, and will probably have EM-catapults that will insure that they will be able to launch at max-loads. This will also give time for all the chinks in the design of the baseline PAK-FA to be ironed out, before launching the production of the naval version.
    In terms of the Kuznetsov - it is a smaller AC with only ski-ramps - but with its eventual overhaul it will certainly be able to carry quite a large MIG-29K complement, this is an ideal aircraft for it and the Kuznetsov can be equipped with them right up to its eventual retirement.

    My only hope is that they still plan to go ahead with MiG-29K introduction, but want to modernize and keep around a few Su-33s in the carrier air-wing for the long-range missions. I guess such an idea has its value too.

    GJ Flanker wrote:At the end, you've to admit, a super-dooper modernized Su-33 will have the edge over a MiG-29KR in every way.

    No I don't have to 'admit' it.

    The MiG-29K is a newly-built aircraft that will be able to serve for a lot longer than just the 10 years that the Su-33 upgrade will give, there are no questions about its ability to take-off with full weapons loadouts from ski-ramp aircraft carriers, and you will be able to fit considerably more MiG-29Ks/MiG-29KUBs onto the Kuznetsov than you could fit Su-33s; owing to their compactness and the ability of MiG-29KUBs to double as trainer aircraft.

    Actually I'm surprised they have decided that the Su-33s have another 10 years left in them. Modernization will do zilch for the age of the airframe, and I have heard that those airframes are pretty worn-out by now, needing replacement and soon. That was part of the big reason for the MiG-29K program funding; and the idea that India's purchasing of MiG-29Ks will make it worthwhile to build ones for the Russian navy too.
    medo
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    Post  medo Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:50 pm

    Modernization of Su-33 have some sense, as they were last flankers build in the mid nineties. They were built for carrier operations over the sea, but they quite rarely fly from carrier. Anyway, they could serve quite a long time as ground based fighters in Murmansk region do defend Murmansk naval base and Arctic region. Don't forget, MiG-31BM is fast interceptor and Su-34 is a fighter bomber. They need an agile fighter like Su-33 there, specially when Su-33 is also equipped with IFR and with that it have longer range over arctic than standard Su-27 and equipped for navigation over the sea. Modernized to Su-27SM3 standard will be still capable fighter to protect the open gate over warm gulf stream to the Arctic region. MiG-29K/KUB will be quite enough for their carrier operations.

    With a squadron of Su-33 in Murmansk together with a squadron of MiG-31BM in Murmansk and a squadron of MiG-31BM in Novaya Zemlja island, they will be capable to defend the gate to the Arctic region.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:19 pm

    GJ Flanker wrote:At the end, you've to admit, a super-dooper modernized Su-33 will have the edge over a MiG-29KR in every way.


    No, that is wrong.

    You will always be able to fit more Mig-29Ks on the Kuz.
    Also, it has a TWR advantage and plenty of performance characteristics that a Su-33 will not be matching.

    Now it will certainly have its advantages, but the question is, how relevant are they to what the RuNavy wants. They don't operate Su-33s with heavy AShMs in any case- and even if they do modernize them to be multirole, I suspect the most they will be carrying off the Kuz is the Kh-35 and Kh-31. Both are missiles that the MiG-29K carries.

    There is this notion online that the Flanker platform is flat out better than Fulcrum in every sense aside from price, but it is just not true.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:27 pm

    GJ Flanker wrote:The only advantage, of the MiG-29KR, over the current Sea Flanker was, that it is a multirole fighter and nothing more!

    Will the Sea Flanker ever climb as fast as the MiG-29K? No. An important characteristic for air superiority wouldn't you say.
    Will it cost ever as little to operate? No.
    Will it have as good of a sustained turn rate? Likely no.
    Will it have as fast of in-line acceleration? No.

    Look I could go on, but the point is the situation is more nuanced.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:08 pm

    It might be something to do with inter service rivalry. The Navy has always wanted to be as independent from the VVS as possible....the more aircraft they control - the better from their perspective
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:41 am

    Cyberspec wrote:It might be something to do with inter service rivalry. The Navy has always wanted to be as independent from the VVS as possible....the more aircraft they control - the better from their perspective

    Well they can buy more MiG-29K's, newer structure, newer technology and surely can last longer.

    Anyway i agree that upgrading Su-33 would be hmmm inexpedient. It can however be given mid-life update so it will remain relevant like Su-27SKM but no.. it won't be more advanced than MiG-29K's unless some deep surgery be done to the airframe. Won't be economic especially given that Su-33 weren't produced in the number of land based Su-27S's.

    If such heavy fighters are needed however.. Ru Navy might might better off with restarting Su-33 production line.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:31 am

    They don't need both of them - either one or the other, having them both is a waste of money.

    You could argue they don't need Mi-28s and Ka-52s... but they have both and they are different enough to be complimentary.

    I would say the same with the Su-33 and MiG-29K2... certainly they don't need both but both have been developed and the latter paid for already.

    It might make sense if those Su-33s were modernized for assignment to non-carrier duties.

    The US Navy had the F-35 and the F-18... on paper they are both fighter bombers...

    the Su-33 is larger and heavier and would have better range and with its main wing and horizontal tail surfaces all folding as well as its nose it can actually fit in similar sized places that a MiG-29K can fit so the hangar space argument is not as significant as some might make it.

    The real difference is that the MiG-29K is fully multirole, while the Su-33 is an Su-27 that can carry Kh-31s and Kh-35s.

    The MiG-29K also has fewer hardpoints, is not compatible with the Yakhont and possibly the supersonic Kalibr-variants and yes - it doesn't have canards and thus has a disadvantage in turn-radius and manuevers.

    Su-33 can't carry Yakhont either... AFAIK the only Flanker that has been seen firing Yakhont is Su-34.

    Both the Su-33 and MiG-29K are limited to 8gs because of their folding wings.

    The only advantage, of the MiG-29KR, over the current Sea Flanker was, that it is a multirole fighter and nothing more!

    So the fact that the MiG-29KR is a better fighter and a better bomber means nothing?

    the MiG-29KR should be compatible with the R-37M with a 280km range...

    My only hope is that they still plan to go ahead with MiG-29K introduction, but want to modernize and keep around a few Su-33s in the carrier air-wing for the long-range missions. I guess such an idea has its value too.

    So pretty much what they are doing is what the Air Force did when it upgraded some bog standard Su-27SM aircraft to keep up numbers even though they will get PAK FA sooner than the navy will...

    Well they can buy more MiG-29K's, newer structure, newer technology and surely can last longer.

    An upgrade will always be cheaper than new builds, plus they already have plenty of operational experience with Flankers.

    If such heavy fighters are needed however.. Ru Navy might might better off with restarting Su-33 production line.

    I suspect they primarily want compatibility with the R-77 and other newer weapons... the Su-33 is not able to carry most of the new weapons deployed by the Air Force and Navy... it is basically a bog standard Su-27 with R-27 and R-73 for air to air and dumb bombs and dumb rockets and cannon, plus Kh-31 and Kh-35 for air to ground. I suspect an upgrade to the radar to actually detect and track sea surface targets and ground targets and to use laser and TV guided air to ground weaponry is the priority... plus digitalising all the systems will make them easier and cheaper to maintain.

    This wont be a naval Su-35 we are talking about... it will most likely just be an Su-27SM upgrade we are talking about.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:25 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    TR1 wrote:We have seen them (company MiG-29K and MiG-29M2s, as well as Navy K/KUBs) flying around with Kh-31 and Kh-35.

    Meanwhile the Klub container has never been seen outside of airshow plastic models.

    Has the Klub really been seen much of anywhere at all, as part of any weapons system or launcher? Outside of brouchures, plastic mock-ups, promo videos and the like I mean.

    Remember it's a pretty new weapon, and a very potent one - they might not too eager to show it off to the public, nor will they neccesserily be in a rush to press it into service - albeit I think it's inevitable that they will do; and for all platforms - ship-launched, sub-launched, air-launched & ground-launched.

    ...Or they might not be ready to rush a weapon system in to service if there's a potential major improvement in capability on it's way. Considering that they just recently announced they successfully created hypersonic fuel, and Zircon's development is on the horizon, they might just wait and save money for a scram jet powered Kaliber, kind of like why there isn't any orders for T-90AM/MS because they're waiting for the T-14 Armata.
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    Post  chicken Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:24 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    TR1 wrote:We have seen them (company MiG-29K and MiG-29M2s, as well as Navy K/KUBs) flying around with Kh-31 and Kh-35.

    Meanwhile the Klub container has never been seen outside of airshow plastic models.

    Has the Klub really been seen much of anywhere at all, as part of any weapons system or launcher? Outside of brouchures, plastic mock-ups, promo videos and the like I mean.

    Remember it's a pretty new weapon, and a very potent one - they might not too eager to show it off to the public, nor will they neccesserily be in a rush to press it into service - albeit I think it's inevitable that they will do; and for all platforms - ship-launched, sub-launched, air-launched & ground-launched.

    AFAIK, China was testing it, research purposes probably.
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    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:25 pm

    All Tu-142s for the Navy will be upgraded
    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:19 am

    Russian Northern Fleet’s fighter jets hold drills with missile launches over Barents Sea

    Several dozen flights by deck-based Su-33 [NATO reporting name: Flanker-D] fighters were performed

    MOSCOW, April 28. /TASS/. Deck-based fighter jets of Russia’s Northern Fleet held tactical exercises with air-to-air missile launches over the Barents Sea, Fleet spokesman Capitan First Rank Vadim Serga said on Tuesday.

    "Pilots of the Northern Fleet’s shipborne fighter jet aviation regiment held flight tactical exercises with the practical launch of air-to-air missiles. The drills were held at the naval aviation’s combat training ranges over the Barents Sea. Several dozen flights by deck-based Su-33 [NATO reporting name: Flanker-D] fighters were performed," the spokesman said.

    The pilots repelled an imaginary enemy’s attack on a group of combat ships and performed elements of an air fight, the spokesman said.

    "For the first time in 2015, young pilots took part in the tactical drills. The pilots performed missions both solely and in pairs, wings and groups. Apart from practicing combat training assignments, they developed the skills of flying over the featureless terrain and performed the tasks of crew teamwork in ordinary and complex weather conditions, the spokesman said.
    Kyo
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    Post  Kyo Wed May 13, 2015 2:59 pm

    Mi-14 nuke-capable antisubmarine copter comeback slated

    The Mi-14 was so good at submarine hunting that in 1996, under tremendous pressure from Washington, all Russian antisubmarine version Mi-14 helicopters were decommissioned.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed May 13, 2015 8:41 pm

    Kyo wrote:Mi-14 nuke-capable antisubmarine copter comeback slated

    The Mi-14 was so good at submarine hunting that in 1996, under tremendous pressure from Washington, all Russian antisubmarine version Mi-14 helicopters were decommissioned.

    It goes to show how much of a puppet Boris Yeltsin was...
    medo
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    Post  medo Sun May 17, 2015 5:43 pm

    Any more informations regarding Su-33 modernization?
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    Post  Flanky Sun May 17, 2015 7:16 pm

    So they are after all going to modernize the Su-33. Well the deal with India bying Mig-29K was ok and logically Russians have choosen the Mig because the factory tooling that was made for India... It would take an additional cost overhead to switch to the Mig-29K production, but... Su-33 after modernization would be a true air dominance fighter... Mig-29 with its range and weapons carriage is comparable to the F-18. But Su-33 would be a "weapons truck". Speed, range, number of pylons, radar options.... Mig-29K is a good plane but the original phylosophy arround which it was designed was that it was a front line fighter to be utilized in huge numbers... That you cannot do on sea where you have a single carrier with extremely limited numbers. On sea small groups of planes have to be used and as a result of that greater focus have to be made to make each unit as powerfull as possible. In this aspect Su-33 is the option. It is fast, it is maneuverable, it can carry a lot of weapons and it can carry them very far away + its radar options are better... In this circumstances mixed numbers of types would be the most probable outcome.
    medo
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    Post  medo Sun May 17, 2015 8:20 pm

    I could only speculate, but if they equip Su-33 with Zhuk-MS radar and more powerful Al-31FM1 engines, it could still be quite potent multirole fighter. Maybe Su-33 will not serve on carrier, as NAVY receive new MiG-29K for carrier, but its strong undercarriage made it more suitable from ground base operations from more harsh air bases in Arctic. It need less space than MiG-31, so more suitable for smaller air bases.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon May 25, 2015 3:42 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Kyo wrote:Mi-14 nuke-capable antisubmarine copter comeback slated

    The Mi-14 was so good at submarine hunting that in 1996, under tremendous pressure from Washington, all Russian antisubmarine version Mi-14 helicopters were decommissioned.

    It goes to show how much of a puppet Boris Yeltsin was...

    is Mi-14 going to be only land based? or also as ASW deck based?
    franco
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    Post  franco Tue May 26, 2015 10:51 pm

    Second batch of Il-38N ordered.
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fria.ru%2Fdefense_safety%2F&sandbox=1
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Wed May 27, 2015 1:08 am

    franco wrote:Second batch of Il-38N ordered.
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fria.ru%2Fdefense_safety%2F&sandbox=1

    Good....because the ASW aircraft fleet is in urgent need of an upgrade and probably expansion in numbers. I was reading recently that at it's peak, the USSR had about 100 operational ASW aircraft, while today that number is around 30.

    The 'Kasatka' ASW system which is being installed on the Ka-27M can be installed on a variety of platforms

    Russian Naval Aviation: News - Page 5 Kasatka1
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    There's also the Be-300MP project for an ASW and Maritime patrol version of the Be-200

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat May 30, 2015 6:37 pm

    Aviation of the Black Sea Fleet forced the U.S. destroyers to retreat to the Eastern part of the Black sea


    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150530/1067315178.html

    SEVASTOPOL, may 30 — RIA Novosti. The su-24 aircraft of the black sea fleet of the Russian Federation forced the destroyer "Ross" U.S. Navy to move into international waters in the Eastern part of the Black sea, as the ship's crew behaved provocative, told RIA Novosti source in law enforcement bodies of Crimea.
    Earlier it was reported that the USS "Ross" entered the Black sea in the framework of the implementation of the tasks.
    Destroyer Ross of the U.S. Navy. Archive photo
    © Flickr/ Official U.S. Navy Page
    The USS "Ross" entered the Black sea
    According to the interlocutor of the Agency, after leaving the Romanian port of Constanta American ship went in the direction of the territorial waters of Russia. The ship went along the edge of the territorial waters of the Russian Federation, his actions were provocative and aggressive.
    "The crew behaved in a provocative and aggressive, which caused concern to the operators of the tracking stations and the crews of the ships of the black sea fleet, which has carried out its tasks in the Black sea. Raised on command su-24 (su-24MR — ed.) has demonstrated to the American crew readiness to strictly prevent trespassing and to defend the interests of the country. The extra destroyer turned and walked away into international waters in the Eastern part of the Black sea", — said the source.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:17 pm

    Repair of amphibious aircraft Be-12 in naval aviation of the Russian Navy in Yalta. It seems no replacement is projected in the foreseeable future.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1339356.html
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:33 am

    Concept of new naval helicopter from Kamov. (Should this go here or in air force tread? dunno )

    http://military-informant.com/?p=25706

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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:36 pm

    its looks like Russia are offering to upgrade and build new MI-14's

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150710/1024451880.html
    franco
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    Post  franco Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:27 pm

    In honor of Naval Aviation Day;

    http://sputniknews.com/photo/20150717/1024738645.html
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    Post  Cucumber Khan Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:19 pm

    Found this interesting blurb:
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150805/1163249888.html

    Su-24MR conducting exercises to detect submarines in the Sea of Okhotsk. Now, the Su-24 has no capability to detect submarines, so what is going on here?

    Sponsored content

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