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    Roscosmos Planetary Exploration Missions

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:48 am

    I wish India all the best, India failing does not help Russia in any way and the Indian mission might help Russia learn a few things they might have learned if their own mission had succeeded.

    The terrain on that part of the moon is difficult and landing safely is difficult... that is why no one has landed there before, because you really need to be very careful and also very lucky regarding the place you come down for it to be a success... a rock or boulder in the wrong place and even a good landing might end up with your lander flipping over or jamming at an angle where it wont work properly.

    Looking forward to the next launch from Musk... and indeed the real experts in space travel... our experts here who are gloating that Russia can't do something so easy...

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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:50 am

    Amidst all the vile puke on the Luna 25 thread on NSF, I saw this quite interesting post by user "Steven Pietrobon" which I thought should share here as well:

    https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=59370.msg2516797#msg2516797

    Also, the Soviet's had many failures in their attempts at landing on the Moon. They had eleven consecutive failures before success! If Russia wants to succeed, they need to build multiples of each spacecraft and keep trying. Building unique one-of-a-kind spacecraft and expecting success for each one is not going to work.

    4 Jan 63 Luna (Ye-6 N2). Earth orbit only.
    3 Feb 63 Luna (Ye-6 N3). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    2 Apr 63 Luna 4 (Ye-6 N4). Solar orbit after 8,500 km lunar fly-by.
    21 Mar 64 Luna (Ye-6 N6). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    20 Apr 64 Luna (Ye-6 N5). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    12 Mar 65 Kosmos 60 (Ye-6 N9). Earth orbit only.
    10 Apr 65 Luna (Ye-6 N8). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    9 May 65 Luna 5 (Ye-6 N10). Impact at 31°S x 8°E.
    8 Jun 65 Luna 6 (Ye-6 N7). Solar orbit after 160,000 km lunar fly-by.
    4 Oct 65 Luna 7 (Ye-6 N11). Impact at 9°N 40°W.
    3 Dec 65 Luna 8 (Ye-6 N12). Impact at 9°8'N 63°18'W.
    31 Jan 66 Luna 9 (Ye-6 N13). First successful soft lunar landing at 7°8'N 64°33'W.

    The soil sample return program had five consecutive failures before success!

    14 Jun 69 Luna (Ye-8-5 N402). Failed to reach Earth orbit.
    13 Jul 69 Luna 15 (Ye-8-5 N401). Impact at 17°N 60°E.
    23 Sep 69 Kosmos 300 (Ye-8-5 N403). Earth orbit only.
    22 Oct 69 Kosmos 305 (Ye-8-5 N404). Earth orbit only.
    6 Feb 70 Luna (Ye-8-5 N405). Failed to reach Earth orbit.
    12 Sep 70 Luna 16 (Ye-8-5 N406). First successful automatic lunar soil sample return.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 23, 2023 11:03 am

    sepheronx wrote:If it boils down to management pushing things just to outdo India, then those management need to be fired.

    In that case might have to fire the President and Prime Minister for all we know
    Hard to tell the depth of this idiocy (if any) until we get more inside info
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Aug 23, 2023 12:46 pm

    Putin does not come off as vain enough to push for this sort of "race". But I may have lost any faith in Borisov. Perhaps PD can have
    a hate hard on for him instead of Rogozin.

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    mr_hd


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    Post  mr_hd Wed Aug 23, 2023 1:30 pm

    Once Russia learns to do space mission for science and not political reasons and prestige they might be successful.

    But chance for that as long as Putin is leading is 0.

    Right now Russia is on the way to become legacy space country, one indeed with large legacy from Soviet Union... it has systematic problems with quality and stability of missions for decades - of course all problems are coming from the top directly - it is after all super centralized autocracy.

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Wed Aug 23, 2023 2:54 pm

    India becomes the first country to reach the south pole of the Moon, 08.23.2023.

    NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — The Indian probe Chandrayaan-3 landed on the moon at the south pole of the Earth's natural satellite, which makes the Asian country the first to achieve this feat and the fourth to reach the Moon, after the Soviet Union, the United States and China, according to the live transmission of the operation over the Internet.

    The Indian Space Agency (ISRO) launched the probe on July 14, 2023. The device reached the lunar orbit on August 5, and twelve days later the Vikram moon landing capsule with the Pragyan rover separated from the orbiter and performed two close-up operations to the Moon.

    Yandex Translate from Spanish

    https://sputniknews.lat/20230823/la-india-se-convierte-en-el-primer-pais-en-alcanzar-el-polo-sur-de-la-luna-1142955758.html

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 23, 2023 2:58 pm

    Congrats to India. And hopefully Russia learned from this not to push things to be first here or there so they won't end up in failure. And if they want to be first at something, don't rush it to failure.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:09 pm

    Good job India Very Happy

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    Ned86


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    Post  Ned86 Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:10 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Congrats to India. And hopefully Russia learned from this not to push things to be first here or there so they won't end up in failure.  And if they want to be first at something, don't rush it to failure.

    Congrats to India.....it is great for them and for the science.

    Russia was first  anyway, not just on the moon....but if they want to downplay you (Russia in this case) they will did it anyway.
    It was a bad day for russia, bad coincidence and it came in a wrong moment and gave all haters reason for gloating.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:27 pm

    Russia screwed up their own space launch. It was all going fine till the upper heads wanted to get their limelight and promotions and decided to rush this thing.

    So this is a massive blow to Russian space agency and that was due to their own hubris. Roscosmos is a joke of a company and honestly, should be split apart and let someone else control it. Seems the government groups can't.

    India managed to do this with mostly off the shelf parts as India lacks a lot of the tech in development. So this is even more of a joke against Russia.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:33 pm

    kvs wrote:Putin does not come off as vain enough to push for this sort of "race".   But I may have lost any faith in Borisov.   Perhaps PD can have
    a hate hard on for him instead of Rogozin.  

    Borisov needs to oust himself as flat earther before that course of action can be considered


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    Post  Ned86 Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:34 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Russia screwed up their own space launch. It was all going fine till the upper heads wanted to get their limelight and promotions and decided to rush this thing.
    It was all going fine until they put sanctions on Russia  Roscosmos Planetary Exploration Missions - Page 15 1f605
    sepheronx wrote:
    So this is a massive blow to Russian space agency and that was due to their own hubris.  Roscosmos is a joke of a company and honestly, should be split apart and let someone else control it.  Seems the government groups can't.
    Roscosmos is responsible for Glonass, ISS, manned space program and bunch of other weather, remote sensing and science satellites.
    Not to mention all sorts of launch vehicles currently operated and in development.
    Sprut-B
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    Post  Sprut-B Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:37 pm

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:42 pm


    Orbiter, lander and a rover, how come India didn't advertise this bad boy more? I just learned about it

    Indian mission makes Russian one look about as advanced as hot air balloon


    UAE and Israel next hopefully, I want to everyone laugh their asses off once Russia does manage to land one of their obsolete dumpsters on the crowded moon in distant future


    For any space program out there failure is a result of accident

    Russia shifted that paradigm, going forward any Russian success will be attributed to accident

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    Post  Sprut-B Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:49 pm

    Hopefully Russia will learn from their mistake.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:52 pm

    Once Russia learns to do space mission for science and not political reasons and prestige they might be successful.

    Ahh, please, the US only spent more than would have been needed to end world hunger on a glory mission to put pieces of meat on the moon because they were embarrassed that the Soviets beat them to space and I might say in a lot fo other things as well... first man in orbit, first woman in space, first step outside the space craft... etc etc... they even reached the moon first and landed something on the moon first and took the first photos of the dark side... about the only thing they didn't do first was put a man on the moon and one small slip up with the Saturn 5 and they could have easily done that first too.


    We hear over and over about how the US won the space race but all they did was get a man on the moon first... all the hard stuff had already been done first by the Soviets.

    The brand new US space suits are actually copies of Soviet spacesuit design...

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:54 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Amidst all the vile puke on the Luna 25 thread on NSF, I saw this quite interesting post by user "Steven Pietrobon" which I thought should share here as well:

    https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=59370.msg2516797#msg2516797

    Also, the Soviet's had many failures in their attempts at landing on the Moon. They had eleven consecutive failures before success! If Russia wants to succeed, they need to build multiples of each spacecraft and keep trying. Building unique one-of-a-kind spacecraft and expecting success for each one is not going to work.

    4 Jan 63 Luna (Ye-6 N2). Earth orbit only.
    3 Feb 63 Luna (Ye-6 N3). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    2 Apr 63 Luna 4 (Ye-6 N4). Solar orbit after 8,500 km lunar fly-by.
    21 Mar 64 Luna (Ye-6 N6). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    20 Apr 64 Luna (Ye-6 N5). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    12 Mar 65 Kosmos 60 (Ye-6 N9). Earth orbit only.
    10 Apr 65 Luna (Ye-6 N8). Failed to achieve Earth orbit.
    9 May 65 Luna 5 (Ye-6 N10). Impact at 31°S x 8°E.
    8 Jun 65 Luna 6 (Ye-6 N7). Solar orbit after 160,000 km lunar fly-by.
    4 Oct 65 Luna 7 (Ye-6 N11). Impact at 9°N 40°W.
    3 Dec 65 Luna 8 (Ye-6 N12). Impact at 9°8'N 63°18'W.
    31 Jan 66 Luna 9 (Ye-6 N13). First successful soft lunar landing at 7°8'N 64°33'W.

    The soil sample return program had five consecutive failures before success!

    14 Jun 69 Luna (Ye-8-5 N402). Failed to reach Earth orbit.
    13 Jul 69 Luna 15 (Ye-8-5 N401). Impact at 17°N 60°E.
    23 Sep 69 Kosmos 300 (Ye-8-5 N403). Earth orbit only.
    22 Oct 69 Kosmos 305 (Ye-8-5 N404). Earth orbit only.
    6 Feb 70 Luna (Ye-8-5 N405). Failed to reach Earth orbit.
    12 Sep 70 Luna 16 (Ye-8-5 N406). First successful automatic lunar soil sample return.

    Jesus Christ, so what little success they did have really was purely by accident Razz

    They should have ditched that fùcking name, if that ain't cursed I don't know what is




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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:57 pm

    Sprut-B wrote:Hopefully Russia will learn from their mistake.

    Learn what exactly?

    Only thing that can be learned from this fùckup is stuff everyone with more than one brain cell already knows

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:59 pm

    If no heads roll at Roscosmos, then this will be really bad for Russia. Such a farce needs to have corrective measures instead of
    "shit happens" ass covering.

    It will be a stain on Putin if he does not crack the whip on Borisov. Rogozin needs to be brought back. I wonder how much damage
    Borisov did to the Russian MIC. As in the precious west, incompetent clowns are promoted instead of being given 100 lashes.



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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:05 pm

    PD you are such a whiny little bitch.

    They are spending money and launching things to the moon... you expect them to not say anything about it?

    You would then complain that their PR is crap and it doesn't mean anything if they do stuff if they don't tell the world about it.

    What you are essentially saying is that you are a 12 year old American boy who can't take disappointment or failure and screams and cries and wants someone to be fired if they try things and don't do it perfectly.

    Well when you do nothing you can't fail I guess... failure is part of life... you don't have a tantrum and break everything and lash out at everyone just because something you were trying to do didn't work.

    You suck it up and look at what you did right and what you did wrong and try to learn some real practical lessons from the whole situation and next time don't make the same mistake...

    You know... like amassing a group of allies to poke a bear in Europe to the point where the bear has no option but to tear one of your allies to tiny little meat chunks and your group of allies become poor paying for the mess they created and that Bear is even more powerful now than it was before... so what the **** do you do... you shift your focus to Asia while the body of Kiev is still warm and bleeding everywhere and you do the same to a Dragon thinking this time it will work out better.

    Don't pretend Russia is stupid and the west is smart... the west ruled the world and the world payed them for it by using US dollars and Euros for international transactions and as we can see by the rest of the world not being interested in sanctions against Russia but sports and other western dominated organisations are all piling on Russia for being the bad guy... showing not much else but how owned by the west they are and therefore how not international they are...

    Hopefully Russia grows some balls and leaves the european soccer league and joins the asia league... it does not matter if there is more money in soccer in Europe if they wont let Russia play and Russia should explore their Asian side too... it will be good for them and good for Asia... and Japan and South Korea and Australia will be pissed off too.

    If no heads roll at Roscosmos, then this will be really bad for Russia. Such a farce needs to have corrective measures instead of
    "shit happens" ass covering.

    It will be a stain on Putin if he does not crack the whip on Borisov. Rogozin needs to be brought back. I wonder how much damage
    Borisov did to the Russian MIC. As in the precious west, incompetent clowns are promoted instead of being given 100 lashes.

    You going pussy too kvs... have the whingers made you think a minor **** up is worth disrupting the whole organisation before we even properly know what actually happened... yeah... fire Putin too because filth columnists always want that too.... and I mean Filth...
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    Post  kvs Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:19 pm

    There is a clear pattern of failure at critical moments. It's not a hiccup or mistake.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:19 pm

    Garry, this is where I have a problem and I am seeing most do.

    India, who operates on a much lower budget than Roscosmos, is able to achieve this on third attempt. Add to that, they produce little of their own tech and use a lot more off the shelf stuff. Roscosmos for most part uses custom made components making it much more expensive project. Indian engineers are paid less than Russian to add to it. Russia has far more experience than India at this too.

    Yet India achieved much more on third attempt than Russia did with all their attempts.

    @Ned

    Most of Russias major success in space is attributed to the military ark of Roscosmos. These projects are heavily monitored by Russian MoD and thus that is why they are successes. Very little is done on the civilian side with a few satellites and these missions. Most end in failure. To he poin that companies in Russia are turning to more private development of satellites than previously hiring Roscosmos to do it. If these failures keep up, the government may not be interested in keeping roscosmos as it currently is, split the military arm away and then sell the rest to someone else. Space development would still happen and satellites too, but they would be purely military projects or private.

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    Post  George1 Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:20 pm

    Ned86 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    So this is a massive blow to Russian space agency and that was due to their own hubris.  Roscosmos is a joke of a company and honestly, should be split apart and let someone else control it.  Seems the government groups can't.
    Roscosmos is responsible for Glonass, ISS, manned space program and bunch of other weather, remote sensing and science satellites.
    Not to mention all sorts of launch vehicles currently operated and in development.

    yes but Glonass, ISS and some satellites have their roots to the leagy of soviet space program

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:28 pm

    kvs wrote:If no heads roll at Roscosmos, then this will be really bad for Russia.   Such a farce needs to have corrective measures instead of
    "shit happens" ass covering.  

    It will be a stain on Putin if he does not crack the whip on Borisov.   Rogozin needs to be brought back.   I wonder how much damage
    Borisov did to the Russian MIC.   As in the precious west, incompetent clowns are promoted instead of being given 100 lashes.

    Oh yeah, bring back the chode who created this whole Twitter/OnlyFans anti-science culture in Roskosmos, that will cure whatever ails them lol1

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:34 pm

    George1 wrote:
    Ned86 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    So this is a massive blow to Russian space agency and that was due to their own hubris.  Roscosmos is a joke of a company and honestly, should be split apart and let someone else control it.  Seems the government groups can't.
    Roscosmos is responsible for Glonass, ISS, manned space program and bunch of other weather, remote sensing and science satellites.
    Not to mention all sorts of launch vehicles currently operated and in development.

    yes but Glonass, ISS and some satellites have their roots to the leagy of soviet space program

    That doesn't matter, because the newer models has little to do with their Soviet legacy parts. It's just most of those are military projects. If you want to use Soviet excuse, then this lunar lander should have worked cause of its Soviet legacy too. Most of ISS modules are newer than Soviet stuff but a lot is learned from Mir. It's like Chinas space agency copied most from Soviet stuff.

    Current Roscosmos civilian sector is so abysmally bad, that they are outdone by someone with far less experience, less developed in tech and with a smaller budget. By a long shot.

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