VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Werewolf wrote:Most certainly and maybe even with stubbed wings like on Mi-24 for extra lift which translates in better speeds.

...BTW does anyone find it funny that Sikorsky is turning in to a Kamov clone as of late with their designs?

No, but what i find funny are the american fanboys on internet, calling everything that russia makes a clone of UH-60, AH-1,AH-64 but are know even so cocky to claim that such prototypes as S-97/X-2 are somehow innovative and superior, without knowing anything about rotor arrangement or that such stiff plastic rotors like S-97 uses are horrible for any battlefield where even 7.62mm rounds fly around but are always the first one to claim Ka-50/52 will be shot down with one single round to the rotor...that i find really funny.

Werewolf wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Werewolf wrote:Most certainly and maybe even with stubbed wings like on Mi-24 for extra lift which translates in better speeds.

...BTW does anyone find it funny that Sikorsky is turning in to a Kamov clone as of late with their designs?

No, but what i find funny are the american fanboys on internet, calling everything that russia makes a clone of UH-60, AH-1,AH-64 but are know even so cocky to claim that such prototypes as S-97/X-2 are somehow innovative and superior, without knowing anything about rotor arrangement or that such stiff plastic rotors like S-97 uses are horrible for any battlefield where even 7.62mm rounds fly around but are always the first one to claim Ka-50/52 will be shot down with one single round to the rotor...that i find really funny.

This is starting to look just like the smoothbore, autoloader, GLATGM debate were NATO-Stronk trolls were claiming they were terrible ideas, only for them to be eventually adopted by NATO military's; and now their claims against the co-axial rotors are now falling by the wayside. Funny you should bring up the fact that 7.62mm bullets will be flying around, seeing how DOD/Pentagon's lack of demand for BP glass for their Apaches leaves their cockpits vulnerable to that very caliber, and it's likely the S-97 will have the same problem (if there's no demand).

However the biggest irony, the one that takes the cake is that the guy who founded Sikorsky helicopters was in fact a citizen of the Russian empire lmao!!!

5 Tu-160 and 9 Tu-22M3 will be modernized during 2015

Air Force Commander: five Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 nine come out repairs in 2015

How many Su-35 are they planning to build by 2020 or so? They have something like 48 right now if I'm not mistaken... So are they going to deliver around 12 per year moving forward or are there any plans to increase production? I mean they are going to build T-50s at a rate of 12 per year so from 2016... So it would be logical to deliver more Su-35s? How about Su-30? 60 T-50S, 100+ Su-35s and even more Su-30s by 2020 or something like that?

Plan is for 96 through 2020, though they mentioned the 2nd batch might be increased in size modestly.

T-50 won't be built at 12 per year from 2016, you can count on that.

There have been 20 Su-30M2 ordered, and likely no more.
60 Su-30SM for VVS, and VMF has ordered a small amount with a floated interest in 50 birds. Past that we can only guess.

Kimppis wrote:How many Su-35 are they planning to build by 2020 or so? They have something like 48 right now if I'm not mistaken... So are they going to deliver around 12 per year moving forward or are there any plans to increase production? I mean they are going to build T-50s at a rate of 12 per year so from 2016... So it would be logical to deliver more Su-35s? How about Su-30? 60 T-50S, 100+ Su-35s and even more Su-30s by 2020 or something like that?

Russians strategists don't think like that, they are infinietly more cleaver than we could  imagine. Russia is in war against west, espiaclally US. To build more SU-35, and Mig-35 implies to spend more ressources in military industrial complex, Russia cannot afford it. It is in fact the trap tended by US. China has at least 400 SU-27 derived, India has several hundreds SU-27, and Mig-29. China became the world economy, it has more ressources to spend. India, has growing economy too, these countries has huge ressources. Moreover, there are other countries in the world that are interresting by SU-35, and Mig-35, there are all challenges for US.
The first batch of 24 SU-34 will arrive at China in 2016. Beijin is planning to build several hundreds, if not thousands of SU-27 derived products, with huge amounts of benefits for Russia, without straining its economy. China has nearly several trillions of dollars availlable, and all this amount will pressure US without spending one rouble for Russia. India, Vietnam, North Korea are planning to build, or buy more SU-27, and SU-50. The declining western economies could not sustain this race, and Russia will be the ultimate winner.
SU-35, and Mig-35 are a very usefull cards between russian strategists not only in military areas.

GarryB wrote:The proliferation of the Su-35 and MiG-35 really don't effect Russia directly... except the income they will derive from sales and support, for the US however the more of these planes around the harder it will become for them to use military means to bully other countries into things.. which I doubt will stop them... they will just continue to use economics to bully.

I would expect not a huge number of Su-35s over the 96 odd they want... they are very good aircraft but they wont have the budget or pilots for many more, besides if they buy too many now they will have less money for PAK FA and fewer pilots too.

From what information is available the Su-35 uses a lot of the early avionics intended for the first PAK FA so in a sense it it a 4++ gen fighter with 5- gen avionics, so in that sense it will be good experience for fighters and support crew to tease out the bugs and find what works well and what needs more work.

In terms of production it means the sub contractors that make the parts get them into production earlier and can optimise production techniques and sort out any production bugs too.

96 aircraft is a pathetic number.  Russia has a huge aging fleet of aircrafts and there is constant threat from US now at her borders, and cannot find money + pilots for it?  You gotta be kidding me.  $50M per pilot is not a lot, and they definately need them, as the Su-27's are barely in enough numbers, and same with MiG-29's.  Russia is a huge country and there is almost 150M population, they need the aircrafts badly.  While US has roughly twice that in terms of newer aircrafts, Russia is screwed in a fight, so they need these Su-35's and MiG-29M's in huge numbers or things can get ugly real fast for Russia even trying to defend its own territory.

The number of T-50's proposed, 250, is a pathetic number too, when Soviet Union was able to produce 500 MiG-31's and far more MiG-29's, Su-27's and fielding previous gen aircrafts at same time. Russia put all the others in reserve, graveyard, while operating a pathetic fleet of MiG-29's, Su-27's and Su-24's with a few modern jets here and there. So Russia is in no position to even defend itself conventionally. Su-35's to replace all Su-27's and MiG-35 to replace all MiG-29's plus upgrade all current MiG-29's and replacing Su-24's 1 to 1 with Su-34's is where they need to go, or they will be heavily under protected and heavily outgunned real quick.

You gonna pay for it?

The number of new 4th gen airframes Russia is buying is quite good for its defense spending.

I swear, some of you guys have no conception of what Russia actually needs/what it can pay for.

TR1 wrote:You gonna pay for it?

The number of new 4th gen airframes Russia is buying is quite good for its defense spending.

Currently it is, I admit.  But the problem is, they have a real aging airforce and with NATO's pressuring Russia, it is becoming evident that they will need more soon to counter NATO.  Roughly, Russia has around 830 fighter or so combat aircraft in service, but that is somewhat decent for such a large nation, but not that good.  As well, who will pay for it?  Well, they will have to pay for it which is a lot less than paying for what could be a problem after a war which is far greater payments.  As well, if they stretch it out for the next x amount of years, then it shouldn't be a problem (and ultimately, prices will drop over time as production will be up).  As well, they could opt for building a plane that meets somewhere inbetween the Su-35, PAK FA and MiG-35.  Something cheaper.  The idea of a single jet engine plane would have been a good one, something with an RD-93 engine and more modern equipment onboard but ultimately cheaper (like Su-34 or cheaper) would be ideal to get in numbers.  Su-30 series is also a good step too.

tr1 wrote:I swear, some of you guys have no conception of what Russia actually needs/what it can pay for.

Well, theoretically, after time, it would become much cheaper to produce them.  Maybe more MiG-29M's for Russia would also be good as an alternative.  Su-30MK2 runs at around $37M per aircraft.  If they spent $20B (which they spend much more than that on other programs, and $20B being peanuts to Russia ultimately) could produce roughly 500 Su-30MK2's and that is just using current known figures, figures that could be export prices.  Just an example. Stretch that $20B to the next lets say 10 years, and that is: $2B a year.

MiG-29SMT - 50
MiG-29K - 24
MiG-35 - ~30
Su-34 - ~170
Su-35 - 112
Su-30SM - 110-140
Su-30M2 - 20
Su-27SM/SM3 - 14

Tentative Total : ~530-560

My Tentative list for "new" (post-Soviet) airframes that will be around by 2020.

I fail to see how this is a bad number.

TR1 wrote:MiG-29SMT - 50
MiG-29K - 24
MiG-35 - ~30
Su-34 - ~170
Su-35 - 112
Su-30SM - 110-140
Su-30M2 - 20
Su-27SM/SM3 - 14

Tentative Total : ~530-560

My Tentative list for "new" (post-Soviet) airframes that will be around by 2020.

I fail to see how this is a bad number.

Is there anymore orders for further MiG-29SMT? There is quite a few MiG-29's in service so upgrading them shouldn't be that costly, no? What about Su-27SM and SM3?

As well, by anychance, do you have the figures on how much it cost for the Su-27SM3?

The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

TR1 wrote:The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

maybe we have another order of 16 MiG-29SMT, until MiG-35

George1 wrote:

TR1 wrote:The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

maybe we have another order of 16 MiG-29SMT, until MiG-35

Not sure they could, I think they will be completely out of the first gen airframes after this order is completed.

If somehow by 2017 Mig is STILL not able to produce MiG-35, they could just order MiG-29M2, since that airframe type has actually been in production.

TR1 wrote:The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

The program being over is because the Su-27SM3 is still considered outdated by the other Sukhoi aircrafts? Cause I could see an Su-27SKM or SM3 or whatever using better/newer radar and newer subsystems with being a new airframe without costing that much, no? I think that would be good.