VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

Новый военно-транспортный вертолет, который должен заменить знаменитый Ми-8, будет создан до 2018 года, сообщил в четверг РИА Новости источник в российском военно-промышленном комплексе.
"Первый прототип перспективного среднего транспортно-десантного вертолета будет создан через два или три года. Фактически это — глубокая переработка прославленного Ми-8", — сказал собеседник агентства.
При создании нового вертолета, который по размерам будет "немного крупнее Ми-8", "в качестве концептуального образца был выбран Ми-35М".
По словам источника, новая машина будет обладать более высокими летно-техническими характеристиками, большей экономичностью, грузоподъемностью, дальностью полета. На вертолете планируется установка бортового радиоэлектронного оборудования отечественного производства.
"Это будет принципиально новый вертолет с современной бортовой электроникой. Он будет сделан в защищенном варианте — получит бортовой комплекс обороны, то есть индивидуальную защиту летательного аппарата от его поражения всеми типами оружия", — рассказал собеседник агентства.

The new military transport helicopter, which is to replace the famous Mi-8, will be created by 2018, said Thursday RIA Novosti source in the Russian military-industrial complex.
"The first prototype of the average long-term transport and assault helicopters will be created in two or three years. In fact it is - deep processing of the famous Mi-8" - a spokesman said.
When creating a new helicopter that size would be "slightly larger than the Mi-8", "as the concept of the sample was selected Mi-35M".
According to the source, the new machine will have a higher flight performance, greater efficiency, capacity, flight range. The helicopter is planned to install avionics domestic production.
"It will be a brand new helicopter with modern on-board electronics. It will be placed in a protected form - get airborne defense, that is, individual protection of the aircraft from its defeat all types of weapons", - told the agency.

Probably a high speed model with a pusher propeller...

This from Mil:



or possibly this from Kamov:

Most certainly and maybe even with stubbed wings like on Mi-24 for extra lift which translates in better speeds.

Werewolf wrote:Most certainly and maybe even with stubbed wings like on Mi-24 for extra lift which translates in better speeds.

...BTW does anyone find it funny that Sikorsky is turning in to a Kamov clone as of late with their designs?

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Werewolf wrote:Most certainly and maybe even with stubbed wings like on Mi-24 for extra lift which translates in better speeds.

...BTW does anyone find it funny that Sikorsky is turning in to a Kamov clone as of late with their designs?

No, but what i find funny are the american fanboys on internet, calling everything that russia makes a clone of UH-60, AH-1,AH-64 but are know even so cocky to claim that such prototypes as S-97/X-2 are somehow innovative and superior, without knowing anything about rotor arrangement or that such stiff plastic rotors like S-97 uses are horrible for any battlefield where even 7.62mm rounds fly around but are always the first one to claim Ka-50/52 will be shot down with one single round to the rotor...that i find really funny.

Werewolf wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Werewolf wrote:Most certainly and maybe even with stubbed wings like on Mi-24 for extra lift which translates in better speeds.

...BTW does anyone find it funny that Sikorsky is turning in to a Kamov clone as of late with their designs?

No, but what i find funny are the american fanboys on internet, calling everything that russia makes a clone of UH-60, AH-1,AH-64 but are know even so cocky to claim that such prototypes as S-97/X-2 are somehow innovative and superior, without knowing anything about rotor arrangement or that such stiff plastic rotors like S-97 uses are horrible for any battlefield where even 7.62mm rounds fly around but are always the first one to claim Ka-50/52 will be shot down with one single round to the rotor...that i find really funny.

This is starting to look just like the smoothbore, autoloader, GLATGM debate were NATO-Stronk trolls were claiming they were terrible ideas, only for them to be eventually adopted by NATO military's; and now their claims against the co-axial rotors are now falling by the wayside. Funny you should bring up the fact that 7.62mm bullets will be flying around, seeing how DOD/Pentagon's lack of demand for BP glass for their Apaches leaves their cockpits vulnerable to that very caliber, and it's likely the S-97 will have the same problem (if there's no demand).

However the biggest irony, the one that takes the cake is that the guy who founded Sikorsky helicopters was in fact a citizen of the Russian empire lmao!!!

5 Tu-160 and 9 Tu-22M3 will be modernized during 2015

Air Force Commander: five Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 nine come out repairs in 2015

How many Su-35 are they planning to build by 2020 or so? They have something like 48 right now if I'm not mistaken... So are they going to deliver around 12 per year moving forward or are there any plans to increase production? I mean they are going to build T-50s at a rate of 12 per year so from 2016... So it would be logical to deliver more Su-35s? How about Su-30? 60 T-50S, 100+ Su-35s and even more Su-30s by 2020 or something like that?

Plan is for 96 through 2020, though they mentioned the 2nd batch might be increased in size modestly.

T-50 won't be built at 12 per year from 2016, you can count on that.

There have been 20 Su-30M2 ordered, and likely no more.
60 Su-30SM for VVS, and VMF has ordered a small amount with a floated interest in 50 birds. Past that we can only guess.

Kimppis wrote:How many Su-35 are they planning to build by 2020 or so? They have something like 48 right now if I'm not mistaken... So are they going to deliver around 12 per year moving forward or are there any plans to increase production? I mean they are going to build T-50s at a rate of 12 per year so from 2016... So it would be logical to deliver more Su-35s? How about Su-30? 60 T-50S, 100+ Su-35s and even more Su-30s by 2020 or something like that?

Russians strategists don't think like that, they are infinietly more cleaver than we could  imagine. Russia is in war against west, espiaclally US. To build more SU-35, and Mig-35 implies to spend more ressources in military industrial complex, Russia cannot afford it. It is in fact the trap tended by US. China has at least 400 SU-27 derived, India has several hundreds SU-27, and Mig-29. China became the world economy, it has more ressources to spend. India, has growing economy too, these countries has huge ressources. Moreover, there are other countries in the world that are interresting by SU-35, and Mig-35, there are all challenges for US.
The first batch of 24 SU-34 will arrive at China in 2016. Beijin is planning to build several hundreds, if not thousands of SU-27 derived products, with huge amounts of benefits for Russia, without straining its economy. China has nearly several trillions of dollars availlable, and all this amount will pressure US without spending one rouble for Russia. India, Vietnam, North Korea are planning to build, or buy more SU-27, and SU-50. The declining western economies could not sustain this race, and Russia will be the ultimate winner.
SU-35, and Mig-35 are a very usefull cards between russian strategists not only in military areas.

The proliferation of the Su-35 and MiG-35 really don't effect Russia directly... except the income they will derive from sales and support, for the US however the more of these planes around the harder it will become for them to use military means to bully other countries into things.. which I doubt will stop them... they will just continue to use economics to bully.

I would expect not a huge number of Su-35s over the 96 odd they want... they are very good aircraft but they wont have the budget or pilots for many more, besides if they buy too many now they will have less money for PAK FA and fewer pilots too.

From what information is available the Su-35 uses a lot of the early avionics intended for the first PAK FA so in a sense it it a 4++ gen fighter with 5- gen avionics, so in that sense it will be good experience for fighters and support crew to tease out the bugs and find what works well and what needs more work.

In terms of production it means the sub contractors that make the parts get them into production earlier and can optimise production techniques and sort out any production bugs too.

GarryB wrote:The proliferation of the Su-35 and MiG-35 really don't effect Russia directly... except the income they will derive from sales and support, for the US however the more of these planes around the harder it will become for them to use military means to bully other countries into things.. which I doubt will stop them... they will just continue to use economics to bully.

I would expect not a huge number of Su-35s over the 96 odd they want... they are very good aircraft but they wont have the budget or pilots for many more, besides if they buy too many now they will have less money for PAK FA and fewer pilots too.

From what information is available the Su-35 uses a lot of the early avionics intended for the first PAK FA so in a sense it it a 4++ gen fighter with 5- gen avionics, so in that sense it will be good experience for fighters and support crew to tease out the bugs and find what works well and what needs more work.

In terms of production it means the sub contractors that make the parts get them into production earlier and can optimise production techniques and sort out any production bugs too.

96 aircraft is a pathetic number.  Russia has a huge aging fleet of aircrafts and there is constant threat from US now at her borders, and cannot find money + pilots for it?  You gotta be kidding me.  $50M per pilot is not a lot, and they definately need them, as the Su-27's are barely in enough numbers, and same with MiG-29's.  Russia is a huge country and there is almost 150M population, they need the aircrafts badly.  While US has roughly twice that in terms of newer aircrafts, Russia is screwed in a fight, so they need these Su-35's and MiG-29M's in huge numbers or things can get ugly real fast for Russia even trying to defend its own territory.

The number of T-50's proposed, 250, is a pathetic number too, when Soviet Union was able to produce 500 MiG-31's and far more MiG-29's, Su-27's and fielding previous gen aircrafts at same time. Russia put all the others in reserve, graveyard, while operating a pathetic fleet of MiG-29's, Su-27's and Su-24's with a few modern jets here and there. So Russia is in no position to even defend itself conventionally. Su-35's to replace all Su-27's and MiG-35 to replace all MiG-29's plus upgrade all current MiG-29's and replacing Su-24's 1 to 1 with Su-34's is where they need to go, or they will be heavily under protected and heavily outgunned real quick.

You gonna pay for it?

The number of new 4th gen airframes Russia is buying is quite good for its defense spending.

I swear, some of you guys have no conception of what Russia actually needs/what it can pay for.

TR1 wrote:You gonna pay for it?

The number of new 4th gen airframes Russia is buying is quite good for its defense spending.

Currently it is, I admit.  But the problem is, they have a real aging airforce and with NATO's pressuring Russia, it is becoming evident that they will need more soon to counter NATO.  Roughly, Russia has around 830 fighter or so combat aircraft in service, but that is somewhat decent for such a large nation, but not that good.  As well, who will pay for it?  Well, they will have to pay for it which is a lot less than paying for what could be a problem after a war which is far greater payments.  As well, if they stretch it out for the next x amount of years, then it shouldn't be a problem (and ultimately, prices will drop over time as production will be up).  As well, they could opt for building a plane that meets somewhere inbetween the Su-35, PAK FA and MiG-35.  Something cheaper.  The idea of a single jet engine plane would have been a good one, something with an RD-93 engine and more modern equipment onboard but ultimately cheaper (like Su-34 or cheaper) would be ideal to get in numbers.  Su-30 series is also a good step too.

tr1 wrote:I swear, some of you guys have no conception of what Russia actually needs/what it can pay for.

Well, theoretically, after time, it would become much cheaper to produce them.  Maybe more MiG-29M's for Russia would also be good as an alternative.  Su-30MK2 runs at around $37M per aircraft.  If they spent $20B (which they spend much more than that on other programs, and $20B being peanuts to Russia ultimately) could produce roughly 500 Su-30MK2's and that is just using current known figures, figures that could be export prices.  Just an example. Stretch that $20B to the next lets say 10 years, and that is: $2B a year.

MiG-29SMT - 50
MiG-29K - 24
MiG-35 - ~30
Su-34 - ~170
Su-35 - 112
Su-30SM - 110-140
Su-30M2 - 20
Su-27SM/SM3 - 14

Tentative Total : ~530-560

My Tentative list for "new" (post-Soviet) airframes that will be around by 2020.

I fail to see how this is a bad number.

TR1 wrote:MiG-29SMT - 50
MiG-29K - 24
MiG-35 - ~30
Su-34 - ~170
Su-35 - 112
Su-30SM - 110-140
Su-30M2 - 20
Su-27SM/SM3 - 14

Tentative Total : ~530-560

My Tentative list for "new" (post-Soviet) airframes that will be around by 2020.

I fail to see how this is a bad number.

Is there anymore orders for further MiG-29SMT? There is quite a few MiG-29's in service so upgrading them shouldn't be that costly, no? What about Su-27SM and SM3?

As well, by anychance, do you have the figures on how much it cost for the Su-27SM3?

The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

TR1 wrote:The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

maybe we have another order of 16 MiG-29SMT, until MiG-35

George1 wrote:

TR1 wrote:The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

maybe we have another order of 16 MiG-29SMT, until MiG-35

Not sure they could, I think they will be completely out of the first gen airframes after this order is completed.

If somehow by 2017 Mig is STILL not able to produce MiG-35, they could just order MiG-29M2, since that airframe type has actually been in production.

TR1 wrote:The only current MiG-29SMT orders are the 16 airframes ordered until the MiG-35 is ready.

Add that to the 34 Algerian birds, and that is where I got 50 from.

There were two additional Su-27SM3 modernized recently, but aside from that AFAIK the program is over.

The program being over is because the Su-27SM3 is still considered outdated by the other Sukhoi aircrafts? Cause I could see an Su-27SKM or SM3 or whatever using better/newer radar and newer subsystems with being a new airframe without costing that much, no? I think that would be good.

96 aircraft is a pathetic number.

It is a pathetic number of I-16s with rifle calibre machine guns against well trained German pilots in vastly superior fighters.

It is an excellent number for use against quarter billion dollar western equivalents.

the simple fact is that Russia is not the Soviet Union and you simply can't compare an Su-35S produced now with an Su-27 from the early 1980s.

Russias military is down sizing and simply doesn't need thousands of planes... what it really needs is 500-600 planes, plus the modern capable munitions that make them orders of magnitude more effective than previous gen aircraft.

An Su-35S with 6 R-37M missiles with an effective range of 280km, and still room on the weapon pylons for 8 more missiles is very formidible, and a MiG-35 with 10 wing hard points is almost as useful.

The number of T-50's proposed, 250, is a pathetic number too, when Soviet Union was able to produce 500 MiG-31's and far more MiG-29's, Su-27's and fielding previous gen aircrafts at same time. Russia put all the others in reserve, graveyard, while operating a pathetic fleet of MiG-29's, Su-27's and Su-24's with a few modern jets here and there. So Russia is in no position to even defend itself conventionally. Su-35's to replace all Su-27's and MiG-35 to replace all MiG-29's plus upgrade all current MiG-29's and replacing Su-24's 1 to 1 with Su-34's is where they need to go, or they will be heavily under protected and heavily outgunned real quick.

Yet spending all that money on fighter aircraft didn't save the Soviet Union... it was that excess spending that did them in... and you want them to repeat the mistake?

Is there anymore orders for further MiG-29SMT? There is quite a few MiG-29's in service so upgrading them shouldn't be that costly, no?

For two decades the MiGs received little use but also little maintainence and they are of a different design to the current production models.

The MiG-29M2 is the new airframe that has potential to be given upgrades to MiG-29K2 or MiG-35. the old model MiG-29s can only be upgraded to MiG-29SMT level, which is fully multirole but not startling in performance.

A lot of tasks will in future be performed by unmanned aircraft so having a huge manned fleet doesn't really make that much sense.

Having a small air force is only a bad thing if you don't upgrade to modern capable multirole aircraft with old dumb munitions...

New air to air missiles will transform all modern Russian fighters...

TR1 wrote:Plan is for 96 through 2020, though they mentioned the 2nd batch might be increased in size modestly.

T-50 won't be built at 12 per year from 2016, you can count on that.

There have been 20 Su-30M2 ordered, and likely no more.
60 Su-30SM for VVS, and VMF has ordered a small amount with a floated interest in 50 birds. Past that we can only guess.

OK, thanks. Sounds about right. Except the T-50 part... Well that what they've announced They've been doing a decent job with the re-armament so far so why the hell not? Seems realistic numbers to me. (But what the hell do I know: )

TR1 wrote:MiG-29SMT - 50
MiG-29K - 24
MiG-35 - ~30
Su-34 - ~170
Su-35 - 112
Su-30SM - 110-140
Su-30M2 - 20
Su-27SM/SM3 - 14

Tentative Total : ~530-560

My Tentative list for "new" (post-Soviet) airframes that will be around by 2020.

I fail to see how this is a bad number.

Those are solid numbers, that's true. (And you're not even including Su-50.) And even the rest are 4th gen (thank you, USSR!) so 20-30% that are left can be easily replaced after 2020. Btw, that doesn't even include the already upgraded Flankers (100+?) if I'm not mistaken? EDIT: And let's not forget the 100 upgraded MIG-31s...

nemrod wrote:Russians strategists don't think like that, they are infinietly more cleaver than we could  imagine. Russia is in war against west, espiaclally US. To build more SU-35, and Mig-35 implies to spend more ressources in military industrial complex, Russia cannot afford it. It is in fact the trap tended by US. China has at least 400 SU-27 derived, India has several hundreds SU-27, and Mig-29. China became the world economy, it has more ressources to spend. India, has growing economy too, these countries has huge ressources. Moreover, there are other countries in the world that are interresting by SU-35, and Mig-35, there are all challenges for US.
The first batch of 24 SU-34 will arrive at China in 2016. Beijin is planning to build several hundreds, if not thousands of SU-27 derived products, with huge amounts of benefits for Russia, without straining its economy. China has nearly several trillions of dollars availlable, and all this amount will pressure US without spending one rouble for Russia. India, Vietnam, North Korea are planning to build, or buy more SU-27, and SU-50. The declining western economies could not sustain this race, and Russia will be the ultimate winner.
SU-35, and Mig-35 are a very usefull cards between russian strategists not only in military areas.

Yeah, I agree that China is a major issue for the US. However, I don't think they'll get Su-35s. We've been hearing that for something like 10 years now. It's just not going to happen. Su-35 is an excellent aircraft, no doubt about that, but the Chinese just don't need it anymore. And if they are going to get them, the numbers are going to be low.

China is going to have around 1000 4th and 5th gen fighters by 2020 (or 2021) and that is going to increase close to 1500 by 2025. They already have around 700. And that doesn't even include 200+ JH-7s. Also the European context is important: France and UK each have only something like 200+ fighters. And we must not forget the Russian IADS.

1.) I should be clearer, I meant serial T-50s. I would bet my savings those announcements regarding 2016 production are baloney. But that is just me.

2.) I just made the list for new builds, not upgraded birds. But yes absolutely the fleet will be larger- that is just my estimate for what portion will be physically new. There will be plenty of upgraded legacy birds, and procurement of new birds will not magically stop @ 2020- so the fleet of "post-Soviet" birds will trend upward from my 500+estimate.

Regarding upgraded planes, IMO the....51 upgraded Su-27SM that are still around will be out of the fleet by 2020, though I could be wrong about that.
Su-24M2, the Gefest ones, all gone by then, and replaced by Su-34.
Su-25SM fleet already numbers 84 birds, so I see Su-25 numbers staying at well over 100 past 2020.
MiG-31BM of course will be around, probably a fleet or ~100 well past 2020.

@ Garry

Russia is the largest country in the world and sparcly populated in various regions, there is a lot of terriroty poorly covered. 500-600 fighters are not enough, even Turkey would field more aircrafts than that. Having roughly 1000 would be most ideal, and that is mixed in with air defense systems and ground based radar systems. The new aircrafts of TR-1 listing is a very good start. But they will definately need to field their older MiG-29's and Su-27's a bit longer than they may like, till more newer craft comes out. Eventually, a 1-3 conversion of Su-27P or S series being replaced by 1 Su-35 or Su-30 series, or maybe MiG-29M would be very beneficial to their protection. And I see them possibly upgrading remainder MiG-31's to use as replacements of older Su-27s in meantime for air patrols. I think they are pushing Su-34 sales more right now as Su-24 are the oldest of aircrafts still serving Russia and may need replacement ASAP so it is understandable.

@TR1
Those Su-27SM and other models, could they just go through an upgrade/facelift in order to make them fly longer and more effective? Because those jets are not that old, at least not as old as the Su-24's.

I should be clearer, I meant serial T-50s. I would bet my savings those announcements regarding 2016 production are baloney. But that is just me.

I would expect by next year they will have a few pre serial production aircraft to send to Air Force units to make manuals and develop tactics and also base serial production aircraft on.

Wont have final engines and likely first iteration avionics that will continue to evolve over time.

Su-25SM fleet already numbers 84 birds, so I see Su-25 numbers staying at well over 100 past 2020.
MiG-31BM of course will be around, probably a fleet or ~100 well past 2020.

There are rumours of replacements for both aircraft, though I doubt we will see them before 2020, I do think both these aircraft are important and therefore will remain in service in numbers till their replacements are ready.

Russia is the largest country in the world and sparcly populated in various regions, there is a lot of terriroty poorly covered. 500-600 fighters are not enough, even Turkey would field more aircrafts than that.

That is what radar is for... they don't need to continuously patrol the air space, they can remain on the ground in air bases while the air space is monitored and anything needing closer examination can be examined by an aircraft sent to investigate.

Eventually, a 1-3 conversion of Su-27P or S series being replaced by 1 Su-35 or Su-30 series, or maybe MiG-29M would be very beneficial to their protection.

By the 2030s they might have force multiplier drones that simply follow a fighter around acting like a wing man that carries lots of missiles and jamming and decoy equipment, but no pilot. When the fighter detects a target he can send his drone in closer for a close in look or if he knows it is hostile he can send it up a few kms in altitude and accelerate to supersonic and launch missiles at the target using higher energy flight manouvers and saving the primary fighter with sophisticated radar and sensors fuel and missiles so if they miss when it comes down to a dog fight your aircraft has more fuel and missiles ready to use.