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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:02 am

    If it was that big a problem there is no reason the barrel could not be extended 10-20cm further out and have the empty shell casings bouncing on top of the barrel and falling either side.

    This is from 1962... plastic had not been invented then... some sort of modern resin based furniture could be used instead to make it extra cool looking... this is before the SA80 and FAMAS and the Steyr and you can fire it left or right handed without adjustment or worrying about getting hot brass in your face.

    I think it is a very good gun... certainly more practical than the triple barrel model intended to improve hit probability by having three barrels and three magazines firing at once...

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 3b1-6512
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:18 am

    GarryB wrote:If it was that big a problem there is no reason the barrel could not be extended 10-20cm further out and have the empty shell casings bouncing on top of the barrel and falling either side.

    This is from 1962... plastic had not been invented then... some sort of modern resin based furniture could be used instead to make it extra cool looking... this is before the SA80 and FAMAS and the Steyr and you can fire it left or right handed without adjustment or worrying about getting hot brass in your face.

    I think it is a very good gun... certainly more practical than the triple barrel model intended to improve hit probability by having three barrels and three magazines firing at once...

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 3b1-6512

    They could have made it from bakelite pirat

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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:58 pm

    They did and that is why it looks so funky...

    But it would be brittle and problematic in Soviet weather conditions so its chances of getting into service would be low.

    That is not to say it is a bad idea... it is very compact and the insides are essentially enclosed and protected from mud and gunk that might cause problems... but Bakelite is not the ideal material to use to make a durable item especially when very cold or exposed to high temperatures like the barrel of a gun.
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:39 am

    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu with a new version of the AM-17 assault rifle. The assault rifle differs from the first version of the AM-17 by an elongated barrel, a modified receiver and a modified fire mode switch with a new firing mode "EM" or "3M".
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Geoc1410
    The first version of AM-17
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Y58dud10
    Also on the rifle is some kind of bulky sighting system, powered by an additional battery. 
    EM can mean electromechanical, that is, firing on command from a ballistic computer when pointing the mark at a pre-selected target. But this is only guesswork, and not completely reliable information. 

    It also seems to me that the Kalashnikov Concern is working on the option of a future replacement of the AK-12 based on the AM-17.

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    Post  Mir Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:47 am

    TMA1 wrote:


    Here is an incredible 3d blowup and animation of the TKB-022 bullpup rifle. It has a mind blowingly exotic action, gorgeous in its movements like a watch. Its ugly as sin tho. Very short and definitely worth a minute or so viewing. The channel is of a pretty famous Soviet weapons historian Maxim Popenker.

    Note the crazy method of ejecting the casings. Very awesome. Reminds me vaguely of the kord mg shooting the casings forward.

    It was a very advanced weapon for it's time but would have been more complicated and expensive than the AKM to manufacture. The military thought the design was too radical!

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:03 pm

    Is the AM-17's receiver partially metal or all plastic?
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:07 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Is the AM-17's receiver partially metal or all plastic?
    It looks like plastic
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    Post  Hole Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:56 pm

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 E9t-8u10
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Gpr2010
    Under-barrel grenade launcher GPR-20

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:33 am

    Kalashnikov will present for the first time a version of the AK-12 assault rifle for special forces. 

    "The AK-12SP is a version of the AK-12, in which, following the results of trial operation, a set of technical solutions has been introduced aimed at further improving the efficiency of the machine, without interfering with the components whose design forms the basis of the reliability of the AK family" – the company's press service commented on the new product.

    As part of improving the ergonomics of the weapon, the AK-12SP is equipped with a new adjustable butt and pistol grip, previously presented on the upgraded AK-12 at the Army 2020 exhibition. The butt can additionally be equipped with a light folding cheek, which allows you to ensure the optimal position of the shooter's head when firing using optical sights. The machine has a two-way translator-fuse, the design of which allows you to manipulate it equally conveniently with both the right and left hand.

    To ensure the stability of the installation of sighting systems, the AK-12SP is equipped with a new aluminum receiver cover with a Picatinny rail and standard M-Lok slots. Thus, it is possible to install various combinations of modern optoelectronic devices on the machine gun for effective use of weapons in any combat conditions, including at night.

    Source: 
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Img_2210
    AK-12SP
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 1v_bgo10
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 1hzsab10
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    Post  Mir Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:55 am

    Interesting selector switch "fix".
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:55 am

    Hole wrote:Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 E9t-8u10
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Gpr2010
    Under-barrel grenade launcher GPR-20
    A little information about the GPR-20. For the first time, this under-barrel rocket launcher was presented at the Army-2016. And recently, Sergei Shoigu was presented with a version of the GPR-20, ready for testing.

    It is also worth remembering that this grenade launcher is being created as part of the development work on the creation of the Sotnik equipment. I think that its deliveries to the troops can begin even before the introduction of new equipment.

    Rocket-propelled grenade:
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Ul9pyv10
    A single-use container:
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 J8u_2z10
    Mounting for a single-use container:
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 V2sz2y10
    The peculiarity of the GPR-20 is that instead of constantly carrying a bulky under-barrel grenade launcher, a soldier can, if necessary, simply fix a container with a grenade and make a shot.

    In 2016, the following characteristics were stated: 
    Firing range – 800 m
    The mass of the explosive substance in the TNT equivalent – 250 g
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Apupdz10
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:17 pm

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:Is the AM-17's receiver partially metal or all plastic?
    It looks like plastic

    God I hope they do not end up with a Russian g36.

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:The peculiarity of the GPR-20 is that instead of constantly carrying a bulky under-barrel grenade launcher, a soldier can, if necessary, simply fix a container with a grenade and make a shot.

    In 2016, the following characteristics were stated:
    Firing range – 800 m
    The mass of the explosive substance in the TNT equivalent – 250 g

    I wonder if they will create tubes of varying length and caliber, You could have short high caliber tubes for firing short range high power grenades for Syria type situations and at the other end of the scale you could have very long tubes containing rockets that can fly out to 2km and perhaps even small tandem HEAT rockets for dealing with lightly armored vehicles and UGVs.

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:15 am

    Full-size 5.45 mm automatic rifle based on the AM-17 platform
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Img_2224
    Small-sized automatic rifle AM-7.62 based on AM-17
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 Img_2225

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:17 pm

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Full-size 5.45 mm automatic rifle based on the AM-17 platform

    Nice to  see the Russian look is back, I just hope the moving parts are all still metal.
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    Post  Regular Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:36 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Full-size 5.45 mm automatic rifle based on the AM-17 platform

    Nice to  see the Russian look is back, I just hope the moving parts are all still metal.

    Early versions looked like new CZ rifles, now it looks like MK-107.

    Looks will change 10 times until if it be will be ready for production, more rails, changes in guards, it will get even more refined.

    And talking about looks, new Kalashnikov products have unique look only typical for them. Well, you can still call them Russian look, but no one else in Russia makes weapons like them.
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:34 am

    Regular wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Full-size 5.45 mm automatic rifle based on the AM-17 platform

    Nice to  see the Russian look is back, I just hope the moving parts are all still metal.

    Early versions looked like new CZ rifles, now it looks like MK-107.

    Looks will change 10 times until if it be will be ready for production, more rails, changes in guards, it will get even more refined.

    And talking about looks, new Kalashnikov products have unique look only typical for them. Well, you can still call them Russian look, but no one else in Russia makes weapons like them.
    The AM-17 is a reworking of the Dragunov's assault rifle, which was a competitor to the AKS-74U
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2 - Page 13 5xpoip10
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    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:53 am

    So with this new grenade launcher, there is a new grenade that looks like a squared off cylinder with bits sticking out presumably to engage the rifling, a tube and a portion that is attached to the rifle.

    The original was just a short stubby barrel attached to the rifle that essentially acted like a mortar... you muzzle loaded the grenade or mortar bomb and pulled the trigger to fire.

    How does being able to remove the firing tube make it better... isn't that just something else to attach before firing... does the ammo come loose or preloaded in those barrel tubes?

    800m is a rather amazing range to be firing under barrel rifle grenades... is it necessary?

    Woudn't it be better to keep the range about 400m and just use more explosive with a heavier grenade?

    The 6 barrel grenade launcher that was made up of the former muzzle loaded grenades in a cylinder of 6 tubes could have the front cover folded aside and the cylinders could be muzzle loaded. I saw one being fired and when he had fired all six grenades he took a super long 40mm grenade and muzzle loaded it through the front tube and into the current empty chamber and fired it. The recoil seemed excessive compared with previous shots, but the grenade only went about 30-40 metres and visibly bounced several times and seemed to break up into multiple bits releasing sparks and flame and thick smoke... the sort of thing the police might fire at a crowd to get them to move back (without risking killing them all of course).

    I liked the old launchers and apart from the obvious range advantage I don't really understand how this improves things unless they have some funky new ammo types.

    The ADS just entered serial production and its seems to use the old 40mm grenades which are different from the new 40mm grenades for the new automatic grenade launcher Balkan.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:56 am

    The AM-17 is a reworking of the Dragunov's assault rifle, which was a competitor to the AKS-74U

    It is funny but I always thought the AKS-74U would make more sense in 7.62x39mm calibre because that round does not rely on very high muzzle velocity to be effective and with the shorter barrel in the AKS-74U they could probably just add a suppressor... with such a short barrel and the right ammo it would be easy to make subsonic...

    But then at the time I knew nothing of the excellent AS and VSS weapons in 9 x 39mm.
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    Post  Mir Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    I liked the old launchers and apart from the obvious range advantage I don't really understand how this improves things unless they have some funky new ammo types. .

    There are two things this new launcher would do. First bonus it will reduce the weight compared to the previous ones. For a soldier slogging it out there this is a huge bonus! The second thing is that these type of launchers tend to make the rifle front heavy - this one seems to be a good step forward, but still retaining the fire power. Nifty little design. Smile
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    Post  Mir Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The AM-17 is a reworking of the Dragunov's assault rifle, which was a competitor to the AKS-74U

    It is funny but I always thought the AKS-74U would make more sense in 7.62x39mm calibre because that round does not rely on very high muzzle velocity to be effective and with the shorter barrel in the AKS-74U they could probably just add a suppressor... with such a short barrel and the right ammo it would be easy to make subsonic...

    But then at the time I knew nothing of the excellent AS and VSS weapons in 9 x 39mm.

    The first attempts were 7.62x39 but it proved to be highly inaccurate and extremely noisy. The smaller caliber did improve things slightly.

    Edit: Actually scrap that. I've read something on this many years ago but could not find any citation for it. Even as is the gun is very inaccurate and very noisy - making the new rifle a welcome addition! Smile
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    Post  TMA1 Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:36 pm

    5.45 bullet design made it a lot less dependent on speed in order for it to tumble on impact. 5.56, particularly at certain bullet weights, requires a longer barrel to keep the bullet at sufficient speed in order for it not to ice pick. You will notice especially in person that the 5.45 is a lot longer than the usual 5.56 bullet.

    as a result the small barrel AK still is quite effective in 5.45, and more accurate than you might think but is indeed loud.
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    Post  Mir Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:01 pm

    TMA1 wrote:5.45 bullet design made it a lot less dependent on speed in order for it to tumble on impact. 5.56, particularly at certain bullet weights, requires a longer barrel to keep the bullet at sufficient speed in order for it not to ice pick. You will notice especially in person that the 5.45 is a lot longer than the usual 5.56 bullet.

    as a result the small barrel AK still is quite effective in 5.45, and more accurate than you might think but is indeed loud.

    The AKS-74U was supposed to hit target with 4 bullets hitting within a 15cm radius at 100m - so yes not too bad, but it was intended to be used in ultra short range combat conditions.

    As far as the development of the rifle goes - it is known that they used the basis of the AKM (not the AK-74) as a starting point for development and only at a later stage did they incorporate AK-74 features into the design.

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    Post  TMA1 Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:50 am

    Mir wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:5.45 bullet design made it a lot less dependent on speed in order for it to tumble on impact. 5.56, particularly at certain bullet weights, requires a longer barrel to keep the bullet at sufficient speed in order for it not to ice pick. You will notice especially in person that the 5.45 is a lot longer than the usual 5.56 bullet.

    as a result the small barrel AK still is quite effective in 5.45, and more accurate than you might think but is indeed loud.

    The AKS-74U was supposed to hit target with 4 bullets hitting within a 15cm radius at 100m - so yes not too bad, but it was intended to be used in ultra short range combat conditions.

    As far as the development of the rifle goes - it is known that they used the basis of the AKM (not the AK-74) as a starting point for development and only at a later stage did they incorporate AK-74 features into the design.

    Yup. It is a great crew served weapon even today. I wish I had my krink still. Especially over here in the states they fetch quite a penny, particularly if derived from older parts kits. Right now even crappy ak models are hard to get and expensive. Was thinking of saving up for an ak74 pattern rifle but with with the severe bottleneck to russian ammo it will most impact 5.45 damnit.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:39 am

    There are two things this new launcher would do. First bonus it will reduce the weight compared to the previous ones. For a soldier slogging it out there this is a huge bonus! The second thing is that these type of launchers tend to make the rifle front heavy - this one seems to be a good step forward, but still retaining the fire power. Nifty little design.

    I might be being a bit thick, but how does having a removable barrel make it lighter.... the old grenade launcher literally clips on and off like a bayonette... if it makes it too front heavy then don't mount it till you want to fire grenades and then flick it off when you are done.

    Having a removable barrel just seems to complicate things in my view.

    The whole point of the bullpup ADS was to allow underbarrel grenade launchers to be attached as standard without upsetting the balance of the weapon.

    Plus there is not much wrong with front heavy... most conventional rifles already are front heavy anyway.


    The first attempts were 7.62x39 but it proved to be highly inaccurate and extremely noisy. The smaller caliber did improve things slightly.

    Edit: Actually scrap that. I've read something on this many years ago but could not find any citation for it. Even as is the gun is very inaccurate and very noisy - making the new rifle a welcome addition

    Yeah, have heard complaints about the poor accuracy of the AKS-74U, but the fact of the matter is that the barrels of the VSS and AS in 9x39mm have even shorter barrels and are reportedly quite accurate to 400m or so.

    Maybe with the 193 grain subsonic 7.62x39mm ammo a short barreled AKS-74U might be quite accurate and also very quiet with a suppressor fitted too... they could re-purpose the suppressor fitted to the AS...

    5.45 bullet design made it a lot less dependent on speed in order for it to tumble on impact. 5.56, particularly at certain bullet weights, requires a longer barrel to keep the bullet at sufficient speed in order for it not to ice pick. You will notice especially in person that the 5.45 is a lot longer than the usual 5.56 bullet.

    as a result the small barrel AK still is quite effective in 5.45, and more accurate than you might think but is indeed loud.

    The steel core of the 5.45mm round makes the projectile rather bigger than a similar weight western round... and because it can't be wider... it has to be longer, which improves its aerodynamics and its ballistics... the longer a bullet is the heavier it is but the more weight it concentrates in a small diameter area meaning it pushes through the air more efficiently that a shorter lighter round, but also it does not rely on velocity for its lethal effect like the 5.56mm round so it is still rather effective in a shorter barrel weapon.

    I still think logically that if you have to have a short barrel then a small calibre high velocity bullet that relies on speed for effect makes less sense than a larger calibre heavier slower bullet that relies on mass for effect.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:41 am

    Yup. It is a great crew served weapon even today. I wish I had my krink still

    It is a very compact weapon that fires full power standard ammo in the full power standard magazines... what is not to like... the ideal PDW.

    I wish I still had my L1A1 and my AK... don't really miss my M4 though....

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