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    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:53 am

    It has a hand strap.... it is a hand held recon set of binoculars... those lens covers are popped off manually... who is going to climb out and climb up and pop them off to see or pop them back on to protect those lenses if it gets windy or dusty?

    It looks fake... something else goes there and I suspect it is a drone that lands and takes off but operates from that pole, or their might be a different sensor that can open its lens covers and close them remotely.
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    william.boutros

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    Post  william.boutros Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:16 pm

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Detailed photos of the retractable optical reconnaissance system of the T-90M tank
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 4azon410
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 Hiv_2t10
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 Dcli1e10
    It doesn't seem that the active protection system is able to protect against top attacks. Any information about the system?

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    Lennox

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    Post  Lennox Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:28 pm

    william.boutros wrote:
    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Detailed photos of the retractable optical reconnaissance system of the T-90M tank
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 4azon410
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 Hiv_2t10
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 Dcli1e10
    It doesn't seem that the active protection system is able to protect against top attacks. Any information about the system?

    AFAIK no T-90 (of any variant) has been fitted with APS so far. They rely on passive protection system (the Shtora laser warning system to be specific) and aerosol for top attack missiles like TOW 2B, which btw is still very effective considering how top attack missiles work. If there are more threats in the future, when all the US tanks in Europe are fitted with Trophy, or when much more capable missiles are fielded by NATO, then we'll definitely see Arena-M on T-90
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:10 am

    AFAIK ARENA-2 is to be fitted to other tanks, while Armata has Afghanit, and Kurganets and Boomerang have Standard.

    ARENA-2 is able to shoot down top attack missiles, and I assume the newer systems (Afghanit and Standard) can too.

    The first version of ARENA could engage overflight ATGMs like BILL 2, but not diving weapons like Copperhead... which is a very rare missile anyway.
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    Post  George1 Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:41 am

    The first prototype of Russia’s newest T-90M Proryv tank with an additional set of an optoelectronic system will be tested during military exercises soon, a defense industry source told TASS on Wednesday.

    https://tass.com/defense/1335037

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    Post  Lennox Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:33 am

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK ARENA-2 is to be fitted to other tanks, while Armata has Afghanit, and Kurganets and Boomerang have Standard.

    ARENA-2 is able to shoot down top attack missiles, and I assume the newer systems (Afghanit and Standard) can too.

    The first version of ARENA could engage overflight ATGMs like BILL 2, but not diving weapons like Copperhead... which is a very rare missile anyway.

    Arena can shoot down top attack missiles because of the way the projectile is launched (smart af if you ask me). As for Afghanit, the one on T-14 sits below the turret so I doubt it can shoot down top attack threats. They may have to rely on aerosol and radar/ laser warning systems like the T-90. And for those Copperheads, fitting a system that's able to defend against that amount of explosives and kinetic system is absurd. It's kinda overkill (or overprotect), and it adds a lot to the weight. If you think about it, even if a system like that is one day fitted, people will always continue to demand stronger APS systems, like those that protect against ATGM from helis. Peole can keep asking for stronger system, but at some point, there will be a "diminishing return". The simple thing is that you cant always protect yourself against every threat.

    Also this is the first time I've heard of the Standard system. Do you have any info on that?

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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:26 am

    Copperhead was never as effective as advertised but was eventually replaced by the far more capable M982 Excalibur in the US and is in service with a few other countries like Australia and India as well.

    The US also had SADARM but is apparently no longer in use. The Russian ptkm1R top-attack anti tank mine is very similar to SADARM.

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    Post  Broski Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:00 pm

    Lennox wrote: And for those Copperheads, fitting a system that's able to defend against that amount of explosives and kinetic system is absurd. It's kinda overkill (or overprotect), and it adds a lot to the weight. If you think about it, even if a system like that is one day fitted, people will always continue to demand stronger APS systems, like those that protect against ATGM from helis. People can keep asking for stronger system, but at some point, there will be a "diminishing return". The simple thing is that you cant always protect yourself against every threat.
    At that point, Tor-M2, Pantsir-SM or even Sosna-R mounted on the Armata Chassis to protect the other tanks would be more useful.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:34 pm

    Well, not if you consider the cost of such protection.
    Any missile, even the less expensive command-guided, no matter the technology, will be still more expensive than a hard-kill cartridge.
    War economy is more and more important those days, the economic approach used to be presented by al Kaida from the very beginning.
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:06 pm

    Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Detailed photos of the retractable optical reconnaissance system of the T-90M tank
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 4azon410
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 Hiv_2t10
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 Dcli1e10
    That's the snorkel tube lmao.
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    Post  Broski Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:48 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Well, not if you consider the cost of such protection.
    Any missile, even the less expensive command-guided, no matter the technology, will be still more expensive than a hard-kill cartridge.
    Shooting down the helicopters firing ATGM's at your tanks is always cheaper than losing a whole regiment.

    War economy is more and more important those days, the economic approach used to be presented by al Kaida from the very beginning.
    Most terrorist groups wont be fielding anything better than TOW's, Javelins and Soviet ATGM's, which Russian APS is already able to defend against.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:14 pm

    Broski wrote:

    War economy is more and more important those days, the economic approach used to be presented by al Kaida from the very beginning.
    Most terrorist groups wont be fielding anything better than TOW's, Javelins and Soviet ATGM's, which Russian APS is already able to defend against.

    But against such enemies you don't send t-14 or t-90 with arena-2 but lighter vehicles that don't have APS and against which even the old atgms are deadly.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:35 pm

    Broski wrote:
    Shooting down the helicopters firing ATGM's at your tanks is always cheaper than losing a whole regiment.

    So you are mixing apples with oranges here.
    Sure it is better to have everything.
    Still, sometimes you are lack of anything.
    APS is a kind of last-ditch of defence, with sole armour left after.
    You are talking about defence against a direct top hitting ammo.
    Why shot a $50k missile to kill a ballistic round with targeting head costing $5k, if you can kill it with a $50 cartridge?

    Broski wrote:
    Most terrorist groups wont be fielding anything better than TOW's, Javelins and Soviet ATGM's, which Russian APS is already able to defend against.

    Most terrorist groups would not gain enough attention to imply a whole echelon of forces, including the AD assets.
    The times when Russkies used Tunguskas for direct fire support and lost them to RPG are long gone.
    And not quite sure what are you even talk about, as Jevelin is among the most modern assets you can face on the battlefield right now, surpassed by the MMP only scratch
    TOW is a standard, widespread asset.
    And that both combined, are supposed to be a core of the tools on hand of the "most potent armored forces on the planet".
    "Won't be fielding anything better", so what do you consider? Have some information about aliens?
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:28 am

    Arena can shoot down top attack missiles because of the way the projectile is launched (smart af if you ask me).

    The original ARENA could shoot down missiles that flew over their targets like Bofors Bill 2 that would fly directly over top of the target and fire a downwards HEAT warhead when directly above the tank, because of the angles it launched its munitions upwards at and the way they angled their fragments down into the ground close to the tank. This was to prevent fragments killing friendly troops operating near the tank like a normal shotgun like blast of fragments would do.

    The newer ARENA model can also destroy incoming missiles in a steep dive... I would think the easiest solution would be that the original munitions were like a claymore mine with a sheet of HE and a layer of fragments and ball bearings on one side to be blown down into the ground hopefully through the incoming missile target, so very simply adding another layer of fragments and ball bearings to the other side of the munition blowing directly up into the air should kill both birds with one stone... and could be used against incoming suicide drones as well.

    The only other modification would be to add radar arrays looking up, which would not be a big deal.

    The ARENA-M seems to have replaced the wide hemisphere of large numbers of munitions around the front turret edge with munitions in boxes on each side of the tank with wider coverage so they could cover all four directions with four munitions, which I guess is simpler.

    And for those Copperheads, fitting a system that's able to defend against that amount of explosives and kinetic system is absurd. It's kinda overkill (or overprotect), and it adds a lot to the weight. If you think about it, even if a system like that is one day fitted, people will always continue to demand stronger APS systems, like those that protect against ATGM from helis. Peole can keep asking for stronger system, but at some point, there will be a "diminishing return". The simple thing is that you cant always protect yourself against every threat.

    Copperhead is not heavily used AFAIK, they seem to prefer the Excalibur, but either way it does not really matter because these systems use HE to launch fragments and a ball bearings like a claymore mine... not much is going to survive... the easiest way to stop Copperhead is pop smoke so they can't lase your tank.

    Also this is the first time I've heard of the Standard system. Do you have any info on that?

    Only occasional mention of it being fitted to the lighter vehicles they are making... Kurganets and Boomerang and Typhoon.

    Copperhead was never as effective as advertised but was eventually replaced by the far more capable M982 Excalibur in the US and is in service with a few other countries like Australia and India as well.

    The Copperhead was a pain in the ass to use apparently... when the Russians were trying to sell the Krasnopol 152/155mm calibre missile to the French they listed the manual for Copperhead and it was rather extensive checks and special handling procedures for the round. The Krasnopol has a lens cover that is not removed before firing... it is designed to be ejected in flight so the round is simply loaded as a normal piece of ammo and can be loaded into auto ammo handlers like a standard round of ammo.

    I think LSOS said they didn't end up buying any anyway... even though they were effective and cheap and already worked with French laser target marking equipment... so they could have kept using the same equipment they already used...

    At that point, Tor-M2, Pantsir-SM or even Sosna-R mounted on the Armata Chassis to protect the other tanks would be more useful.

    Excalibur should be a fairly straight forward target for TOR and Pantsir in combat... and also Hellfire and other long range missiles.

    The shorter ranged Javelin would be more of a problem due to their shorter range and therefore less time to engage, but decent camouflage like Nakidka should render the fire and forget capability of the Javelin ineffective so it becomes a really expensive Metis-M CLOS missile.

    Well, not if you consider the cost of such protection.

    The problem, really is that, despite having APS systems since the mid 1980s they have not been actually buying and using them so their prices are not going down.

    Compared with the cost of losing a vehicle and more so the risk to other vehicles to recover the crew and the vehicle as well then the money is probably very well spent to prevent the damage in the first place. It does not add much weight either like some new armour structure can do.

    Once it is in mass production and use its performance can be improved and experience will show what works and what does not.

    Having them on all vehicles should allow many new features to be added to the vehicle... imagine a MMW radar view of the ground around the tank that works in all weather, day or night... even dust or snow storms or monsoon rain storms... hell they might even improve it to the point where it might detect land mines in the road ahead...

    That's the snorkel tube lmao.

    Well if it is then that is a good bonus use for it... combining mast mounted optics with a snorkel system would be a clever use of something you need anyway to get more features and functions from without adding too much...

    But against such enemies you don't send t-14 or t-90 with arena-2 but lighter vehicles that don't have APS and against which even the old atgms are deadly.

    The point of APS systems is not just to go on your expensive vehicles... it is to go on all vehicles... the first tanks the Soviets tested with APS systems were Navy T-55s...

    APS is a kind of last-ditch of defence, with sole armour left after.
    You are talking about defence against a direct top hitting ammo.
    Why shot a $50k missile to kill a ballistic round with targeting head costing $5k, if you can kill it with a $50 cartridge?

    Appreciate what you are saying but it is the job of the air defence missile to defeat aircraft and their weapons... and most of their SAMs like TOR and PANTSIR are not 50K missiles... the vehicles that carry them are not cheap but the missiles are very reasonably priced so they can be used in numbers.

    Why use a SAM to shoot down a missile instead of letting the tank try to survive its impact?

    the introduction of small missiles for PANTSIR and now for TOR to engage drones could be applied to shooting down enemy munitions as well that wont require large heavy HE warheads to defeat aircraft...

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:04 am

    Against guided weapons a MAWS, multispectral obscuring smokes, and some good old fashioned last second jinking is plenty enough. Compared to hard-kill systems it would also be highly effective against relatively hard to intercept threats like heavy bombs or shells or clusters of EFP submunitions. It also renders conventional saturation attacks - which no hard-kill APS could fend off if its sufficiently dense enough, ineffective.

    Think the T-14's Afghanit suite. In contrast with arena, which had 26 interceptors ready to fire that covers the entire azimuth, it only had the 10 that only covers the frontal arc of the turret, even. Instead it leans more heavily into the substantial banks of smoke mortars installed, of which it has 48 compared to 12 on the arena. Since the MAWS can determine the exact angles of approach of incoming enemy projectiles the Afghanit would only need to expend a few smoke grenades to provide concealment instead of firing off 12 at once everytime its activated, which stretches the already substantial magazine of obscurants even further. In combat you would expect the T-14 to be popping smoke with unnerving regularity every time its under attack by anti-armor weaponry, which does wonders for its survivability when it can't even be targeted in the first place.
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    Post  limb Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:17 am

    lyle6 wrote:Against guided weapons a MAWS, multispectral obscuring smokes, and some good old fashioned last second jinking is plenty enough. Compared to hard-kill systems it would also be highly effective against relatively hard to intercept threats like heavy bombs or shells or clusters of EFP submunitions. It also renders conventional saturation attacks - which no hard-kill APS could fend off if its sufficiently dense enough, ineffective.

    Think the T-14's Afghanit suite. In contrast with arena, which had 26 interceptors ready to fire that covers the entire azimuth, it only had the 10 that only covers the frontal arc of the turret, even. Instead it leans more heavily into the substantial banks of smoke mortars installed, of which it has 48 compared to 12 on the arena. Since the MAWS can determine the exact angles of approach of incoming enemy projectiles the Afghanit would only need to expend a few smoke grenades to provide concealment instead of firing off 12 at once everytime its activated, which stretches the already substantial magazine of obscurants even further. In combat you would expect the T-14 to be popping smoke with unnerving regularity every time its under attack by anti-armor weaponry, which does wonders for its survivability when it can't even be targeted in the first place.

    Thats true, T-90 would benefit far more from smoke launcher launching up rather than forwards to spoof IR and SALH guidance, rather than arena.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:25 am

    Thats true, T-90 would benefit far more from smoke launcher launching up rather than forwards to spoof IR and SALH guidance, rather than arena.

    ARENA would be excellent against light portable anti armour weapons like RPGs as well as heavier anti armour weapons.

    I seem to remember the old ARENA could even be manually activated if enemy troops got too close to your vehicle, which is a fairly unique feature.

    Probably not so useful in WWIII in Europe but when enemy infantry are swarming your vehicles and everyone is buttoned up firing a few of those would effectively deal with such a threat quite well.

    The key upgrades to these Russian tanks will be the communications systems and day and night and all weather optics as well as the net centric stuff that lets them find targets and share target information as well as use drones and other platforms to work together to deal with threats.

    To also be able to call in artillery or CAS would be valuable despite the enormous fire power each Russian ground unit commands.

    It will still be useful being able to send robot vehicles forward to look for threats and targets and monitor any fire they start taking as they move around which could be dealt with using support vehicles and front line units behind the line of robots.

    Considering their strategic forces have a laser system to blind optics I would wonder how far away a new tank based system might be to do the same... effectively acting as a DIRCM for the whole unit...
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:30 pm

    3 year old video of a syrian t-90 firing seen through its thermals.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:46 am

    Mentioned in another thread about testing new armoured vehicles and robot vehicles is the Quarry laser system, which detects enemy optics and suppresses them... sounds like the sort of thing the big IR lamps on the SHTORA system used to do... except more efficient dazzling presumably with laser beams.

    Such a system would be useful as it is essentially a DIRCMS system for vehicles...
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Today at 5:27 pm

    The turret of the T-90A tank. The numbers in the photo are indicated by:

    1 - T01-K04 sighting and observation complex of the commander;
    2 - Kontakt-5 reactive armor unit on the roof of the turret;
    3 - TSHU-1-11 laser irradiation indicators (precise heads);
    4 - the head of the 1G46 sight-rangefinder;
    5 - MTSHU-1-7 modulator of Shtora-1 the optoelectronic counteraction complex;
    6 - rods connecting the gun and lights of the Shtora-1 optoelectronic counteraction complex;
    7 - Kontakt-5 reactive armor unit;
    8 - OTSHU-1-7 lights of the Shtora-1 complex;
    9 - covers for installing reactive armor elements in the "Kontakt-5" reactive armor units;
    10 - launching mortars of the aerosol curtain system;
    11 - TVN-5M headlight with infrared filter for the driver's night vision device;
    12 - headlight with a digital nozzle of the tactical number;
    13 - capacitive wind sensor with interface unit;
    14 - the head of the ESSA thermal imaging sight;
    15 - the head of the PZU-7 sight of a remote anti-aircraft machine gun installation.
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 15 Jmfnoz10

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