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    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:29 am

    Why does shtora take away ERA protection on the T-90, while on the T-80U shtora is placed on top of ERA and doesnt replace it?

    That is at the thickest part of the turret armour, plus the emitter uses layers of ceramic plates that are heated (note the extensive cooling fins around it).

    If the enemy want to hit a metal box in front of the thickest armour on the tank who cares... how is that a weakness?


    Shtora dazzelrs allegedly need a long time to be pointed at a missile to spoof it

    Which just proves he does not know how they work and does not know what he is talking about.

    Shtora dazzlers are invisible to the naked eye and work against the Giononmeters built in the the wests SCLOS ATGMs. A gionometer is a device... an optical port on a missile launcher like Milan or TOW or HOT that tracks an IR flare or beacon on the tail of the outgoing missile and its job is to calculate the deviation of the missile from the point of aim so the system can calculate a manouver for the missile to move back into its centre of aim.

    The Shtora dazzlers... as their name implies does not spoof anything... it sends out an intense IR signal so the the tiny IR beacon from the outgoing missile is lost in the wall of IR light coming from the two dazzlers... when the ATGM launcher cannot tell where the missile is it does not know what command signals to send and it will generally fly straight into the ground or veer off and miss by an enormous margin.

    Shtora would not work on Kornet because the launcher does not track the missile, the missile looks back at the launcher and finds its place within the laser field directed at the target and it manouvers itself into the centre of the beam.

    The T-90 is far too slow(Irrelevant, strategic mobility is more important than tactical)

    No commander's thermals

    Western tanks are too heavy and too slow and way too expensive... and in the case of the Abrams only the US could afford the fuel burn rate.

    The TOW2, Hellfire and Spike are resistant to the shtora and they're NATO's main ATGMs.

    No they aren't... because Shtora includes an entire suite that includes smoke grenades that are still effective against all of those systems... and it is automatic.

    Can the dazzlers scramble the tank's IR signature, making it difficult for thermals to spot it?

    Not really. In a thermal imager the dazzlers would look light bright spotlights turned on, but not overwhelmingly so. From an IR tracking system looking for a small flare it will look like trying to see a candle flame being held up with a light house light lit behind it... the flare would not be visible.

    Through a thermal imager you would probably see both.

    A better question would be what western tank does better... Kornet... Vikhr... Khrisantema... Ataka... and now LMUR and Hermes... their new vehicles have a system called Quarry that is a laser based anti optics system...

    Plus T-90 was developed and deployed in the 1990s during several economic collapses.... but even now they are funding their military and introducing new military kit and equipment that is brand new and state of the art in some cases with no western equivalents, while the west is abandoning allies and cutting procurement numbers so they can spend more on nukes... which sounds like an admission of defeat to me...  Twisted Evil

    But lets give them the benefit of the doubt... the original T-90s lacked a separate commanders thermal sight, the gunner had one but the commander didn't... SHTORA Dazzlers only had a limited period of effective use because as ATGM makers learned how they worked they would adapt their systems so they were no longer effective... SHTORA is so much more than the two dazzlers of course but lets carry on... their position is ideal for their role but does leave weak spots on the tanks heaviest armour locations and we know western penetration performance claims were bullshit for all their missiles and weapons. The T-90 is not the fastest tank, but its power to weight ratio is pretty good having a 1,000hp tank that is 20 tons lighter than most western tanks.

    Is that sufficient to call them useless junk that suck?

    Sounds like a child describing an ice cream flavour they don't much care for...

    Still, the T-90 was developed and put into service during a very difficult time for Russia when there was almost no funding and several economic collapses, yet they made some and put them in service and these days are upgrading all their T-90s to an improved T-90AM level that eliminates many of the old problems like the thermal sights and the dazzlers have been replaced presumably by a system called Quarry that is a laser based anti optics suppression system.

    Also they are introducing its replacement in the form of the T-14... a brand new from the ground up scratch built new tank... as well as introducing stealth fighters and stealth bombers and new attack helicopters and infantry equipment second to none... their training seems excellent and their airdefence network is the strongest in the world by far... but lets compare with the mighty west... Britain is spending billions on Trident and can't afford new tanks or F-35s... it seems they have realised they can't win a conventional war and are putting their eggs into the nuclear missile basket.

    The British tank... 1916 to the early 2020s... RIP.

    No wonder his panties are in a bunch.

    lyle6 likes this post

    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:53 pm

    GarryB wrote: we know western penetration performance claims were bullshit for all their missiles and weapons.

    Do you have a source for this? It would be interesting to read.
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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:26 pm

    limb wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:The Fuq!??

    The video's main points:
    Why does shtora take away ERA protection on the T-90, while on the T-80U shtora is placed on top of ERA and doesnt replace it?

    Shtora  dazzelrs allegedly need a long time to be pointed at a missile to spoof it

    The T-90 is far too slow(Irrelevant, strategic mobility is more important than tactical)

    No commander's thermals

    The TOW2, Hellfire and Spike are resistant to the shtora and they're NATO's main ATGMs.



    Can the dazzlers scramble the tank's IR signature, making it difficult for thermals to spot it?



    That video is purely ironical and for fun,it is very clear.

    It is not intended to be taken seriously in any way and it is inherently wrong to respond to its content in a serious way.


    That said the unique real element to debate could be the question of the IR projectors-modulators; theirs efficiency in the distruption of ATGM's guidance, ground and air delivered, is effectively limited to second generation missiles.

    The two illuminators/modulators ,particularly in the modernized version, retain some capability to interfere with ground based infrared search and tracking systems in a frontal cone of 22-24 degrees ; this capability was considered very important by Soviet commanders in large scale armoured offensive and counteroffensive operations at night, when not efficient long range alternative search and tracking sensor channels exist outside infra red ones for western ground forces.
    The basis concept of operation of the system in this role was that, at night, a dense line of advancing MBTs equiped with those IR modulating emitters activated contemporaneously could saturate the IR sight of OTAN's vehicles and ATGM operators; the effect from the point of view of an enemy ground observators would have been of an enormous ever-growing elliptical stain of light that would have mostly prevented to aim at single domestic units and the effect would have been also furterly bolstered by purposely designed artillery delivered illuminating rounds with the similar propeties.  


    The latest evolution in thermal sights selective frequency filters and wide diffusion in advanced OTAN armed forces of UAVs employment for ISR missions with data sharing in network of enemy units positional data have depreciated the up-mentioned capability of similar vehicles IR emitters, leaving instead entirely intact the efficiency of multispectral opaque aerosol dispensers capable to cover entirely the vehicles from enemy observation and weapon homing.

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:28 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:


    That video is purely ironical and for fun,it is very clear.

    It is not intended to be taken seriously in any way and it is inherently wrong to respond to its content in a serious way.


    Actually it is meant to be taken seriously, modern westerners tend to try to mix history with comedy because they are retards that are incapable of dedicating attention to serious matters. This is further compounded by their tendency to hyperbolically overreact to all stimuli.

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:20 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    GarryB wrote: we know western penetration performance claims were bullshit for all their missiles and weapons.

    Do you have a source for this? It would be interesting to read.

    The first down the list : real penetration ratios of TOW family revealed by GAO.
    Tons of fun reading.
    It is like watching The Pentagon Wars again and again...
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    Post  Hole Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:43 pm

    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 16 Army-218
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 16 Army-217
    T-90 Main Battle Tank #2 - Page 16 Army-216
    T-90M with optoelectronic mast. Useful asset for the new tactic of firing trough gaps in earth walls. You can accquire targets before moving into the gab. Reduces the time your tank is in the open.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:32 am

    It is attached to the turret bustle which makes me think it is not a snorkel for underwater crossings, but the optics covers and hand strap make it look like recon observation optics sitting on top of a motorised aiming system that could mount other optics or equipment...

    For a mast mounted system I would expect protective covers for the optics that could be remotely deployed and opened from inside the tank...

    The very idea of optics mounted up there is solid and sensible, but the implementation seems a little rushed...

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:45 am

    GarryB, George1 and Mir like this post

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    limb

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    Post  limb Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:19 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    limb wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:The Fuq!??

    The video's main points:
    Why does shtora take away ERA protection on the T-90, while on the T-80U shtora is placed on top of ERA and doesnt replace it?

    Shtora  dazzelrs allegedly need a long time to be pointed at a missile to spoof it

    The T-90 is far too slow(Irrelevant, strategic mobility is more important than tactical)

    No commander's thermals

    The TOW2, Hellfire and Spike are resistant to the shtora and they're NATO's main ATGMs.



    Can the dazzlers scramble the tank's IR signature, making it difficult for thermals to spot it?



    That video is purely ironical and for fun,it is very clear.

    It is not intended to be taken seriously in any way and it is inherently wrong to respond to its content in a serious way.


    That said the unique real element to debate could be the question of the IR projectors-modulators; theirs efficiency in the distruption of ATGM's guidance, ground and air delivered, is effectively limited to second generation missiles.

    The two illuminators/modulators ,particularly in the modernized version, retain some capability to interfere with ground based infrared search and tracking systems in a frontal cone of 22-24 degrees ; this capability was considered very important by Soviet commanders in large scale armoured offensive and counteroffensive operations at night, when not efficient long range alternative search and tracking sensor channels exist outside infra red ones for western ground forces.
    The basis concept of operation of the system in this role was that, at night, a dense line of advancing MBTs equiped with those IR modulating emitters activated contemporaneously could saturate the IR sight of OTAN's vehicles and ATGM operators; the effect from the point of view of an enemy ground observators would have been of an enormous ever-growing elliptical stain of light that would have mostly prevented to aim at single domestic units and the effect would have been also furterly bolstered by purposely designed artillery delivered illuminating rounds with the similar propeties.  


    The latest evolution in thermal sights selective frequency filters and wide diffusion in advanced OTAN armed forces of UAVs employment for ISR missions with data sharing in network of enemy units positional data have depreciated the up-mentioned capability of similar vehicles IR emitters, leaving instead entirely intact the efficiency of multispectral opaque aerosol dispensers capable to cover entirely the vehicles from enemy observation and weapon homing.

    How do you respond to the severe tactical disadvantage of not having commander's thermals? Im talking about day battle. Its very hard to impossible to spot a leopard 2 sized target 2000km away with a regular optics in any environment other than desert, without thermal imaging.
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:31 am

    limb wrote:
    How do you respond to the severe tactical disadvantage of not having commander's thermals? Im talking about day battle. Its very hard to impossible to spot a leopard 2 sized target 2000km away with a regular optics in any environment other than desert, without thermal imaging.
    How is this even a question? You simply shrink the width of the attack lane of each sub-unit to compensate for the halved search sector. That way, an enemy tank will have the disadvantage of at least one tank gun pointed in his direction that turns quickly into 2-3 guns after he shoots and reveals his position. He could of course narrow his line but that would simply render his search advantage redundant - a tank with two observation channels could still only engage one target at a time with the main gun.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:07 am

    lyle6 wrote:

    Very similar to the German Leopards. Probably also doubles as an escape route for the crew in case of emergency - perhaps negating the need for "scuba" gear for the crew?
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:17 am

    How do you respond to the severe tactical disadvantage of not having commander's thermals? Im talking about day battle. Its very hard to impossible to spot a leopard 2 sized target 2000km away with a regular optics in any environment other than desert, without thermal imaging.

    The gunner has a thermal imaging sight and more recently the Russians developed the Irbis-K thermal sight for the T-80 and T-90's together with Agat-MDT for the commander that can spot targets at over 3km during both day and night.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:43 pm

    Very similar to the German Leopards. Probably also doubles as an escape route for the crew in case of emergency - perhaps negating the need for "scuba" gear for the crew?

    Actually that is rather narrow so unless you are a tiny man I would think climbing up that tube would be near impossible anyway... but the confidence factor is always important.

    I would still want the scuba gear... having some clean fresh air to breathe in a tank would be useful if the tank is hit and catches fire because I suspect it would rapidly fill up with acrid smoke... I also think the driver is not going to have an easy time waiting for the other two crew to climb out first.

    They did the car crashing into water thing on Mythbusters and Top Gear and it seems that if you wait patiently for the vehicle to fully fill up with water so the pressure inside and outside the vehicle has equalised then you can open the doors and get out easily enough... of course if you are 12 metres under water can you swim vertically 12m on that one gulp of air... I would take a scuba tank every time...

    To be honest I would struggle to fit inside most modern MBTs anyway... at 125kgs I am a bit on the heavy side.

    How do you respond to the severe tactical disadvantage of not having commander's thermals? Im talking about day battle. Its very hard to impossible to spot a leopard 2 sized target 2000km away with a regular optics in any environment other than desert, without thermal imaging.

    Not sure what sort of targets you expect to be able to see with western thermals at 2,000 KILOMETRES... I think that is just being a bit too picky and unreasonable.

    As mentioned, the Russians bought and paid for some of the best western thermal imaging technology and are at the point of producing their own models and the level of their glass and optics production capacity means it is actually very very good.

    The new uncooled third gen thermals in the short wave IR band can even see through glass so they are not as expensive as the old ones that needed single crystal Germanium lenses for optics because old medium wave IR sights can't see through glass or water.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually that is rather narrow so unless you are a tiny man I would think climbing up that tube would be near impossible anyway... but the confidence factor is always important.

    It does have a "ladder" structure at the back of the snorkel and most likely on the inside as well - just like the Leopard. No need to make it that wide if there is no need for the crew to use it. It also gives the commander an elevated view whilst crossing a water obstacle. Tank crews are normally picked from smaller sized soldiers Smile

    Scuba gear would still be handy but not essential in my view when you have this type of snorkel.


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