eehnie wrote:Is not this the 18 Edition of the Topic?
Certainly!
eehnie wrote: The most painful retaliation against, is that Syria will soon:
1.- Declare full control of Damascus (city) 2.- Declare full control of Damascus (Province) 3.- Declare full control of Hons (city)
And later..
Yes sir!
eehnie wrote: The rest, zionists trying to dress their defeats of viectories.
Also true
eehnie wrote: Europe brokes with the US in the Middle East. This is why zionists hate us very much.
Sorry, you got me lost here: are you saying that Europe has such a thing as an independent foreign policy? We are, politically speaking, the lackey of the lackey, a nonentity in words of Assad. Have you seen the last statements from DE and FR regarding the Israeli provocations?
Isos wrote:Why do poeple always think Russia has to protect Iran ? They have 0 agreement for that. Before the iranian revolution russians used to destroy their fighters at the border. They don't even sell them weapons. Stop dreaming guys.
Iran didn't even let russian park some bombers to make their work easier in Syria and you think russia will go at war with ten or twenty sukhois and two s-400 against Israel for Iran ?
Iran knew its forces will be targeted if they send them at the Israeli borders. Its their choice not russia's.
Iran is creating more problems in/for Syria than positive contributions. Russia is doing all the heavy lifting, be it on the ground or in terms of diplomacy (e.g. having Bibi in Moscow).
Russia better take the trash out, Iran can enjoy their 2 new Airbus planes, cause santions are back on in August.
It was Iran that went to Russia for help, it is not in Iran’s interests to be causing problems in Syria because they know what is at stake.
If you are talking about the the missile, Iran would not launch missiles at Jews randomly, they would hit specific targets and not just launch random missiles at the Jews.
The Jews used this opportunity to hit the SAA close to their border, this likely means that this was fake like the Douma chemical attack. The Jews don’t want the area around the Gloan Heights cleared.
You and the ones like you on this forum are driven by your anti Iranian feelings(it does not really matter because you are on a forum and don’t on the ground in Syria.)
... either the Russians are lying about the number of missiles they say the Syrians have shot down or they are telling the truth...
... On 9th May 2018, whilst Russia was celebrating Victory Day, the US announced a further range of sanctions against Russian companies and individuals involved in producing systems for Russia’s air defence complex. Bizarrely two Russian entities which were sanctioned were two Russian military units: the 183rd Guards Anti Aircraft Missile Regiment and the 11th Training Centre of Russia’s Anti Aircraft Missile Forces. It is surely not a coincidence that these are the two Russian military units which have recently provided training to Syria’s air defence forces. It is also surely not a coincidence that the reason given for sanctioning one of the Russian companies named in the sanctions appears to be that it is involved in the supply of advanced Pantsir-S1 systems to Syria. This latest wave of US sanctions has resulted in a stiffly worded statement from the Russian Foreign Ministry which draws the obvious conclusions...
... In effect, this US decision has been precipitated by a trivial desire to get even with Russia over the failed missile attack on Syria, which the United States, Britain and France launched on April 14 in violation of international law. Evidence of this is the inclusion in the sanctions list of the Gatchina Surface-to-Air Missile Training Centre at the Mozhaisky Military Aerospace Academy and the 183rd Guards Air Defence Missile Regiment of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. In all likelihood, they are being punished for providing good training and instructions to the Syrian air defence forces, which shot down the majority of the missiles launched by the Western aggressors. It is notable that the sanctions list also includes the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the Russian General Staff and Rosoboronexport (ROE). It appears that our American colleagues have forgotten that they imposed sanctions against these parties before and are seeking to intimidate us with the same threats that have failed...
...The latest sanctions essentially amount to recognition of the combat capabilities of the Soviet and Russian weapons used by the Syrian air defence crews on April 14, when they shot down the bulk of the incoming missiles. wrote:
2.
It seems that the latest strike – involving no fewer than 28 aircraft and launched against a far larger range of targets than the earlier US led strike – was principally intended to defeat the Syrian air defence system. It is notable that the video from the strike which the Israelis have published, and which they have ensured has been given the most international publicity, is one which shows a successful missile strike on a Russian supplied Syrian Pantsir-S1. It is this small but potent point defence system which appears to be shooting down a disproportionate number of US and Israeli missiles, and which is threatening to nullify the effectiveness of these missiles in Syrian air space. Not surprisingly, its presence in Syria appears to be causing the US and Israeli defence establishments the most concern. Release of the video appears to be intended to provide reassurance – not least to the personnel of the US and Israeli militaries – that like all weapons systems the Pantsir-S1 is not invincible and can be beaten. [b]As for the role of Iran in these military exchanges, in my opinion too much should not be made of this. Iran has become Israel’s and the US’s all purpose alibi in justifying their continued attacks on Syria. [/b] Doubtless – as the Russians say – some Iranian or Iranian controlled facilities in Syria really were attacked as part of this latest strike, presumably in order to give some substance to this alibi. However this constant dragging in of Iran to explain or excuse Israeli attacks on Syria should not mislead about what is really going on. It was Syria and its air defence system not Iran which appears to have been the target. wrote:
There is a lot of hysteria about Russia Official statements about no supplying S-300s to Syria.. But this is all a misunderstanding of what Syria have or really needs..
Some important information to consider..
In the right hands..
1) A mig-29 SM2 > S-300
2) Syria have S-200s vega with 400km RANGE !!!! and it can shot down anything Israel have. 3)There are reports of 2 Israelis combat planes shot down.. usually Israel don't enter in Syria airspace so that if their planes hit ,their pilots eject in safe zone ,they can be rescue.. 4)You cannot deploy S-300s without first having a solid AD network defending it.. Deploying S-300s ,while not having a very robust defense , is inviting for its destruction. S-300s need a Ring of defenses around it .. of Pantsirs and Tors missiles and electronic warfare.. because the S-300s radars will be visible for enemy.and it will become a major target for israel . and since Syria don't have a strong airforce.. to push Israeli planes far away of the range of their weapons.. then it means that Israel airforce could overwhelm the system. So you need territorial continuous space with a Ring around the S-300s to protect the system from a massive attack of drones/gliders/ ballistic missiles or cruise missiles. and also Multi entry warheads.. i dont think the S-300s can defeat space attacks with multi entry warheads ballistic missiles.. using conventional explosives. So Israel can definitively defeat a not well protected S-300. which are only Light multi purposes long range defenses. it does not cover all kind of threats.. specially not ballistic high altitude multi entry warheads. So if Russia provide S-300s to Syria , they will need a large space of territory with several layers of AD defenses to protect the system. + also will need a strong airforce too ..to not allow the Israeli airforce to try , try and continue trying.. Now that eastern Ghouta and southern syria is being liberated. Damascus will be safer.. Since AD systems can be deployed now in those places too.. Before you could not deploy AD systems near terrorist zones for fear of artillery of them destroying Syria defenses near. Another issues is that Syria have no money .. so any new air defense will have to be free... which Russia already did with the extra pantsirs.. gave to Syria.
So giving Syria S-300s alone will not solve the problem.. it will be very vulnerable because Syria do not have yet a rock solid and dense modern AD network for economical reasons and terrorist controlled zones reasons. Onces all Hama/Homs liberated.. all Damascus region liberated.. and russia provide twice more Pantsirs but also TORS , Then S-300s will make sense.. Because it will become the #1 target of Israel..and they can focus a large mass scale attack of missiles of hundreds in the S-300s alone. also will be better if Syria build a Rail Road for the S-300s.. as they do with the S-200.. so is constantly moving. the only thing Israel hit is static targets.. or mobile targets that are not moving and its operators not using.. S-300s should be placed in well defended zones.. with AD and Electronic defenses and the firing units in motion.. but with the latest experience of the Pantsir.. it shows that a major training is also needed to the staff.. to teach discipline..
abandoning a Pantsir for a smoke break.. is how not to operate any air defense. I really think.. it will be better an a dozen of Mig-29 SM2 with electronic warfare.. will be much better.. armed with modern missiles..
i neither think Russia have a proper air defense system in Latakia.. not even with their S-400s.. in case of a real war.. NATO and or Israel can overwhelm easily that base.. in a real war.. if they use all their airforce assets.. about 250 planes.. So Russia needs a really strong airforce in Syria of at least 50-60 planes to properly deal with israel 250 combat airforce. and with the help of S -400s can counter the numbers difference in planes.
For a proper Shield.. you need lots of continuous territory that is not controlled by terrorist.. with lots of space. that is not near of potential enemy borders.. like Turkey is.. Cyprus British base is only 100km away of Russia military base.. and Turkey border ,,is only 40km away. So any terrorist with long range artillery 50km can hit Russia base and S-400s. any combat plane from Turkey border can get as close as 30km from Russia base before plane is intercepted and missile fired. So even if you give S-500s to Syria it will not help much.. in a full scale war that is.. because syria don't control many parts of its territory ,don't have layers of defenses.. and their AD systems are limited. Syria being surrounded by Enemies from most sides.. and occupied by NATO and terrorist makes very complicated ,next to impossible to create a 100% secure place from attacks from the air.. Israel is allowed to fly in Lebanon and from the border to damascus in like 30km.. So in short Syria is one of the worse places in the world for Long Range air defenses to operate.. because the enemy can hit them from very short distance.. only if Syria and Russia declared war on Israel..and started to shotdown their airforce as soon it take off...from airports..only that way you will be using the S-300s or S-400s correctly. Those are more ideal for sniping.. from long distance..but can be used for short .
a Modernized Mig-29 Sm armed with a R-77-M1 air to air missile (200km range) is like a FLying S-300. but with no limits of where the missile can intercept planes. since the plane move . long distances.. It can hit a plane or warship even if deployed in Spain and return. So i really thing.. that Syria geographical limitations, and having US positions inside Syria ,makes very difficult to properly deploy static air defenses positions.. much better will be Russia to provide a dozen of mig-29 SM planes and allow them to be stored in Russia military base for security. and use them to push israel airforce far from combat range ,,when attack Syria. Russia still will need to help Syrian airforce with early warning radars too.. like A-50.... so S-300s alone will not work well. Syria needs a real expensive modernization of its entire air defenes and airforce.. and Syria have no money to even pay for its pantsirs.. so this is why Russia can't just carry Syria on its shoulders.. and needs to develop a defense policy that will not bankrupt Russia budget. So technically speaking it is far easier.. to instead of spending a fortune in air defenses that is always possible to overwhelm. notice how hezbolah could do it on Israel with domestic rockets.. it will be far more cheap ,to just have a strong airforce and go in the offensive..and not sit down and wait for an enemy to attack you.. but Syria can't do that.. while Russia can do it...but is not interested in start a war with Israel and will prefer to avoid it.. whenever it is possible.
new Syrian army video operations in South Damascus vs ISIS.
[Syria] Yarmouk. Hell in Damascus
Last edited by Vann7 on Fri May 11, 2018 8:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
par far wrote:You and the ones like you on this forum are driven by your anti Iranian feelings(it does not really matter because you are on a forum and don’t on the ground in Syria.)
No anti-Iranian feelings whatsover, I've got plenty of Persian friends. Used to date one a while back too. I am driven by anti-'geopolitical stupidity' feelings.
par far wrote:Hey Seig, how good are the Iranian AD systems? Please be unbiased here.
Tor-M1 is pretty frickin good. But the mullah's don't seem to be willing to deploy them.
they dont make them and ammo supplies might be restricted
Cheap excuse. They can get anything they need (yes, Tor missiles) from Belarus or through the -stans. The fact that IRGC has not deployed IRI Tors in Syria is testament of their lack of tactical creativity, which severely compromises Syria's defensive posture vs Israel. Also lobbing Grads against Israel is further inviting IDF to strike SAA assets. They need to stop with their silly games in the region and get serious.
KiloGolf wrote: Cheap excuse. They can get anything they need (yes, Tor missiles) from Belarus or through the -stans. The fact that IRGC has not deployed IRI Tors in Syria is testament of their lack of tactical creativity, which severely compromises Syria's defensive posture vs Israel. Also lobbing Grads against Israel is further inviting IDF to strike SAA assets. They need to stop with their silly games in the region and get serious.
so you suggest Zio diaspora has no leers on Lukashenka? unlikely. All anti Iran media attack make me think Iran "attack" was mildly speaking false flag. Regardles what was the reason bygoen is bygone let's see is Iran will use it's small AAD systems in any near future.
Twitter is in a storm about Russia not supplying S-300 to Syria.
Mixed between: -putin weak -russian technology is shit -russia is an Israel vassal Etc
Rather funny. Try to point out how Russian systems seem to work just fine and even snuffed off a few Israeli jets, shot down huge portions of enemy missiles, and if they were so bad, why would Israel be afraid of the delivery? No answer.
Anyway, it still sucks they aren't sending the s-300.
par far wrote:............ It was Iran that went to Russia for help, it is not in Iran’s interests to be causing problems in Syria because they know what is at stake. ..........
Then they should stop being stupid and move their asses up north where the action is. Golan (or whatever other bullshit is down there) can wait couple of years.
I don't know what kind of sexual satisfaction being the Israeli chew-toy provides them with but it's very counterproductive.
miketheterrible wrote:Twitter is in a storm about Russia not supplying S-300 to Syria.
Mixed between: -putin weak -russian technology is shit -russia is an Israel vassal Etc
Rather funny. Try to point out how Russian systems seem to work just fine and even snuffed off a few Israeli jets, shot down huge portions of enemy missiles, and if they were so bad, why would Israel be afraid of the delivery? No answer.
Anyway, it still sucks they aren't sending the s-300.
Some people want Russians to fight Syria's war. Not going to happen.
Russia is helping where it counts, making the Syrian map red again.
Russians are playing this game looking at the "big picture" trying to prevent escalations with Iran and Israeli. Remember Iran is the last country on the US list of countries that Big Brother drew up to invade. The S.300 is a big issue with Israeli and certainly one of the major Russian cards still. When it can no longer be used, then Syria will get them.
Vann7 wrote:There is a lot of hysteria about Russia Official statements about no supplying S-300s to Syria.. But this is all a misunderstanding of what Syria have or really needs..
Some important information to consider..
Many fair points in your post. Not that I disagree that a proper IAD is different to the patch work of old and compromised assets and sites the Syrians need to work with right now, but I guess it is obvious that a more modern system like the S-300 would have many advantages (mobility, reaction times, minimum RCS and number of engaged targets, capacity of being integrated with other assets), and the hysterical reaction of Israelis to its possible deployment indicates that very clearly. Though it is unclear to what extent the existing AD systems in Syria have been updated I think it is reasonable to assume that they have no system with the capabilities of the S-300. (See: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Legacy-SAM-Upgrades.html#mozTocId638157 )
Regarding the range of the S-200: does anybody know what versions of the system does the Syrian AD operate? AS far as I know they are S-200 Angara and Vega with max. range of 180 - 240 km depending on the source (radar range at low altitude not even close to that obviously). Not that this is little, but consider the effective engagement ranges for different targets here:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-200VE-Vega.html
Look at these numbers: maximum number of tracked targets for the radar 5N62= 1. Missiles per launcher= 1. Unless you have massive amounts of sites, radars and launchers and even considering other systems, you have no chance to repel a saturation attack with this technology today. It is not about shooting down a few huge strategic bombers now, but stand-off weapons with very reduced RCS that can be launched in the hundreds and fly low...
BTW, the S-200s in Syria can be kept on the move by train? From what I have seen they seemed rather fixed emplacements. Here the S-300 would be a massive improvement also, and its radar could perfectly integrate with existing S-200 sites since they can pass coordinates to the 5N62.
So yes, early warning radars, A-50s, increased control of the government of the own territory, more and better point defences, interceptor aircraft, better training etc. all would be also needed, but a modern, survivable long range system like the S-300 has an obvious military value and IMHO would strongly restrict the conditions under which IAF can conduct operations safely on Syrian territory. They have ceased to use Syrian air space after all, so further restrictions could force them to stop harassing the Syrian state or make the effectiveness of their attacks residual.
miketheterrible wrote:Twitter is in a storm about Russia not supplying S-300 to Syria.
Mixed between: -putin weak -russian technology is shit -russia is an Israel vassal Etc
Rather funny. Try to point out how Russian systems seem to work just fine and even snuffed off a few Israeli jets, shot down huge portions of enemy missiles, and if they were so bad, why would Israel be afraid of the delivery? No answer.
Anyway, it still sucks they aren't sending the s-300.
The numbers given are 6 s-300 (lunchers ?) And 144 missiles which is nothing. Israeli fly very low all the way because they don't need to fly far and the mountains out there will play for israeli and against s-300.
All the attacks against SAA will be made with stand off missiles so they will shoot 99% of the time at cruise missiles.
The only intersting thing in S-300 are command posts and radars. The long range missiles are expensive for them and useless for such engagement.
I don't know why so many people want them to have s-300. They should buy more mobile radars and pantsirs for defence.
If they want to win a war against israel they need much more mig-29M/35 and thousands of cruise missile and hundreds of iskanders.
Isos wrote:I don't know why so many people want them to have s-300. They should buy more mobile radars and pantsirs for defence.
Because most people don't know anything about AD or really about anything related to military, geopolitics, etc. The S-series has become a "buzzword" and some people think they are/should be/want them to be "silver bullets". It seems that is how most people understand military matters: at a level of individual systems. Things like geography, terrain, distances, organisation, logistics and kill/loss ratios are totally foreign concepts.
Some sources say it was a spike NLOS that destroyed the pantsir.
Those type of missiles are big ATGM that fly high and they are linked with a wire to the luncher. The guy using it can see in real time and guide the missile on the target.
Serbia is producing something similar, maybe Syria should get some. They are not jammable and very hard to detect by front line troops.
I winder however if the wire is really so long. 20+ km is too much of wire. Maybe Militarov knows ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALAS_(missile)
Why? So idiots could leave it offline in the middle of the runway as a sacrifice to Israeli Gods of FLIR Videos?
The most funny is that they probably want it for free ... So russian S-300 get bad reputation and they sacrifice a 200 million $ system ...
Apparently it needed reload, if they didn't have a shelter I don't know what they could do... saturation of the AD is always a possibility and such an intense attack was not really expected...
LMFS wrote:......... Apparently it needed reload, if they didn't have a shelter I don't know what they could do... saturation of the AD is always a possibility and such an intense attack was not really expected...
If such intense attack was not expected then why did it need reload?
And why was it's radar deactivated and lowered if it was not offline?
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S-300s should be placed in well defended zones.. with AD and Electronic defenses and the firing units in motion.. but with the latest experience of the Pantsir..
franco
