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    Talking bollocks thread #2

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:14 pm

    Su-27s mainly operate with the PVO and perhaps frontal aviation... there is no mission for them to gain and hold air superiority over enemy territory... you are confusing Russia with NATO.

    They were supposed to protect bomber behind enemy lines. F-22 would have destroyed them.

    There is no reason why the US couldn't do the same and upgrade their current AESA radars with the new materials to improve performance... and they probably will but neither will be 20 year old technology.

    Yeah but US have 20 years of experience with them. Russia no. It means more tests, more design, better accuracy ...

    Your comparisin with rifles is useless. Radars are thousand time more complicated than a rifle.

    Actually the Russians have stealthy tanks... the Americans had some 40t designs that never made it to service.

    Soviet tank were made in huge numbers and were designed to last few moment on the battlefield. Crew condition wasn't an issue. Armata is adopting western philosophy : protect crew, expensive but higher epected life, connected ...

    but why are you assuming the Russians even want an all stealth fighter fleet...

    They would love it. But they are facing the same issue as most nato military. It is costly.

    No, they don't... They are up to their second generation super soldier system in service and their third system by about 2022-2023

    Say thank you to the french.

    Their philosophy is defensive.

    They clearly said they want power projection capacity but can't afford it.

    And what US type carrier... their plans are for 70-80K ton carriers that carry AWACS aircraft and fighter planes... the opposite of US colonial carriers... optimised to attack baby milk factories world wide...

    That's exactly what US have since the 40s. And that's exactly what Soviet criticized like your doing here. And that's exactly for what kuzntsov was send in Syria, bombing a non state group.

    Russia is not interested in taking over Venezuela and stealing its resources while the Venezuelan people starve...

    They are starving because Maduro is a total failure. And Moscow is supporting this failure. Once the people remove him, Moscow can forget Venezuela.

    They did, and the only reason the Russian plane was even in that airspace was because the Israelis claimed they were attacking elsewhere to make them go where they wanted so they could use them as cover.

    Clearly an evil cynical act by Israel to both attack Syria and to try to cause conflict between Syrian forces and Russian forces... so a snake acting like a snake.

    Yes and russia didn't protect their military. They had them on S-400 screens. They let them go.

    When you have a snake in your home you remove it.

    . I am an athiest... why can't I marry as many people as I like... things have changed so I can marry a man or a woman, but why still only one at a time?

    The Christian view dominates in the west and is imposed on anyone.

    Not really. In US you can marry many women in some places. In Iran a man can marry many woman but the woman shut her mouth up. Maybe you should send your mother there if it is so good.

    Russia and China don't talk about domination or taking control of the world.... they talk about a multipolar world because they don't think any country should be telling other countries what to do.... you know democracy vs dictatorship.

    The first consideres its neighbours as its whores and don't want them to talk with west. The second consideres that other country are part of its territory even if they 2000km away and the only thing they want is not to stop US but take their place.

    Western democracies are not perfect but compare to China and Russia ...

    I'm not sure what I should think about Patriot... it's a real expensive system and at paper it looks good, but in reality the system is a disaster (See Saudi Arabia yesterday!). It doesn't work against CM and drones, it failed against old ballistic missile. Will it work against fighter? That is the question.

    Patriot proved to be capable of destroying su-24. Something Russia uses in large numbers.

    This system was never designed to hit BM and cruise missiles. Only pac-3 has some limited capabilities against them.

    I seem to remember during one of the conflicts in Iraq or during a period between them it managed to shoot down a western fighter... I guess the IFF system is shit... and that it targeted another western fighter... I think it was an F-16 but it was carrying an ARM and managed to defend itself by taking out the patriot battery radar... so not really an amazing system.

    Then it's time to send those mig-31 at the garbage. Few months ago one mig-31 destroyed another one with its r-33. I wonder how you will respond to this scratch .


    They believed western propaganda... so now democracy and american values are a dirty concept because they know they are empty slogans.... well ask the Ukraine about the utopia that the west brings...

    It wasn't better when it was a pro russian government. Baltics, Poland, Romania are in far better eco situation now thry are in nato and EU than previously in USSR. The fact that they are so afraid of become part of russia again is the only proof you need.


    Walk around any western country in public in the nude and you will get arrested

    Send a naked woman in the streets of Paris she will pay a bill of tens of euros.
    Send a naked woman in the streets of Teheran or saudi arabia and she will be killed.

    Yeah they are a fucking exemple. Such a good society ...

    The west has developed colonialism...

    Go check history again. Ecery civilization developed colonialism. Asian were big colonizators just like egyptians, arabs, russians, soviets (I think in your language you call them liberators Rolling Eyes ), westerns, amerindians before west goes there, scandinvians, japanese ...

    BTW if you think colonialism is so bad you may act in consequence and go back to england because new zeland wasn't a coubtry full of white back in the time.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:22 am

    They were supposed to protect bomber behind enemy lines. F-22 would have destroyed them.

    What F-22s? They would all be in the US trying to shoot down Bears and Blackjacks and all those cruise missiles...

    Yeah but US have 20 years of experience with them. Russia no. It means more tests, more design, better accuracy ...

    Your comparisin with rifles is useless. Radars are thousand time more complicated than a rifle.

    Of course... the Russians know nothing at all about radars and the US leads the way.

    Is Turkey going to demand US radars with those S-400 systems or will they just make their own?

    Soviet tank were made in huge numbers and were designed to last few moment on the battlefield. Crew condition wasn't an issue. Armata is adopting western philosophy : protect crew, expensive but higher epected life, connected ...

    More western propaganda... the Soviets didn't care about crews... that is why the KV-1 and T-34 had no armour to start with, and why they only had more tanks that the rest of the world combined at the start of WWII because the Soviets wanted their soldiers to walk everywhere.

    The BTR series was derided in the west... till they copied it with their amazing Stryker series of vehicles... even their airborne forces are fully mechanised but western airborne forces are not... don't they care about their soldiers?


    They would love it. But they are facing the same issue as most nato military. It is costly.

    Bullshit. If they wanted an all stealth air force where is their F-35 cheaper lightweight numbers stealth fighter?

    Say thank you to the french.

    Can't possibly have anything to do with the French.... because they were delivered on time.

    They clearly said they want power projection capacity but can't afford it.

    When?

    That's exactly what US have since the 40s. And that's exactly what Soviet criticized like your doing here. And that's exactly for what kuzntsov was send in Syria, bombing a non state group.

    Bullshit. The Russians don't need a colonial cruiser to invade and keep their minions in line like the US does, the Russians need an air defence carrier that can protect Russian surface groups operating world wide. In syria they were merely testing blind bombing equipment added to the Su-33s... the same system added to the Su-24 and other platforms.

    They are starving because Maduro is a total failure.

    Who is starving? The Venezuelan economy is based on oil exports... and no previous government did a thing to change that... even the ones the US supported.

    Now that the price of oil is going up because of problems in Saudi Arabia their income should grow and their problems will be solved by the orange man in the white house.

    And Moscow is supporting this failure. Once the people remove him, Moscow can forget Venezuela.

    Moscow is supporting the democratically elected leader of Venezuela.... just like the majority of Venezuelans who voted for him... it is why he is still in power... because lying bastards claiming there is starving there are full of shit... how on earth could he possibly remain in power if that were true... but obviously if you want to drink the kool aide you become addicted and the truth or reason become unimportant.


    Yes and russia didn't protect their military. They had them on S-400 screens. They let them go.

    So you are saying the Russian S-400 battery should have shot down Israeli F-16s because the Syrians shot down a Russian Il-20 elint aircraft... too much kool aide rots the brain it seems.

    When you have a snake in your home you remove it.

    And when it is not your home you provide the owner with the tools they need to kill snakes on their property... currently it keeps the snakes out but it likes to sit next door and spit venom over the fence when it can.

    Not really. In US you can marry many women in some places. In Iran a man can marry many woman but the woman shut her mouth up. Maybe you should send your mother there if it is so good.

    In several US states having sex with animals is only a misdemeanour, doesn't make them less oppressive than Iran now does it?


    The first consideres its neighbours as its whores and don't want them to talk with west.

    Russias neighbours are whores... they are doing nothing to take them back... the west can do as it pleases with them.

    The second consideres that other country are part of its territory even if they 2000km away and the only thing they want is not to stop US but take their place.

    Don't understand what you are trying to say here. Probably don't agree with you anyway.

    Western democracies are not perfect but compare to China and Russia ...

    Western democracies are not democracies... laws are created via bribes so the rich are in control and the people have no say at all.

    Compared with Russia and China... they seem to be improving the future for their citizens without selling out to big business and the very very rich... that alone makes them better.

    Patriot proved to be capable of destroying su-24. Something Russia uses in large numbers.

    When?

    Patriot shot down a Tornado in Iraq or Saudi Arabia, but was destroyed when it locked on an F-16... Russian and Soviet Fencers are armed with better ARMs than F-16s are.

    This system was never designed to hit BM and cruise missiles.

    Which explains why it was so shit at that, but it seems it is not so great at conventional aircraft targets either.

    Then it's time to send those mig-31 at the garbage. Few months ago one mig-31 destroyed another one with its r-33. I wonder how you will respond to this

    Mistakes happen. The west still uses Patriot. The MiG-31 is still the worlds most capable interceptor.

    It wasn't better when it was a pro russian government.

    What? The Ukraine has never had a pro Russian government. When 70 percent of your income comes from trade ties with a large neighbouring country a great way to fuck yourself is to cut all ties without anything to replace that trade link.

    Baltics, Poland, Romania are in far better eco situation now thry are in nato and EU than previously in USSR. The fact that they are so afraid of become part of russia again is the only proof you need.

    Yeah, big bad scary Russia... those rats will make all sorts of claims... Russia is better off without relations with such countries.

    Send a naked woman in the streets of Paris she will pay a bill of tens of euros.
    Send a naked woman in the streets of Teheran or saudi arabia and she will be killed.

    Yeah they are a fucking exemple. Such a good society ...

    Wear a high viz jacket in Paris and get an eye removed or a hand blown off... democracy.

    BTW if you think colonialism is so bad you may act in consequence and go back to england because new zeland wasn't a coubtry full of white back in the time.

    Why would I go to that shit hole... I was born in New Zealand, and having seen the results of colonialism I will of course criticise it... I wont gloss it over and say shit like.... well the spanish would have killed all the natives so we are not so bad. The British settlers here were censored . They were thieving censored and murdering censored and rapists and their crimes should not be forgotten or ignored by me or you.

    Ecery civilization developed colonialism.

    So which countries did the Australian Aboriginies colonise, or the Chinese for that matter, or how about the native American indians...
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:45 am

    Listen, you guys waste time with a child.  He couldn't even get the near basic of AESA radar modules correct, but he talks as if he knows what he is saying.  He didn't know where modules are placed, what kind of modules and knows the concept behind the design and manufacturing of it.  But talks about "experience" as if it really matters when it doesn't.  Matter of fact is, China has no experience in AESA but already produces GaN modules and producing their own AESA radars too.

    Its sad when people just waste breath debating with someone who dances around the same concept over and over again, regardless if he was proven wrong and was shown how ridiculous his claims are.

    Its simple.  Learn the basics first of how they are designed and how they are placed, then we can continue.

    Oh, and no, experience means squat.  Technology is what matters here, and they obtained it long ago.  Modules makes the difference, not the experience.  And the modules are built no different than that in the US, Europe or Asia.  Vice versa.

    Might I suggest we just mute him, and move on? Rather than derailing or dancing in circles?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:33 pm

    What F-22s? They would all be in the US trying to shoot down Bears and Blackjacks and all those cruise missiles...

    They would have a thousabd of them if USSR didn't collapse.

    Of course... the Russians know nothing at all about radars and the US leads the way.

    Is Turkey going to demand US radars with those S-400 systems or will they just make their own?

    I never said they no know nothing about radars.


    Turkey is pissed off of not getting the f-35.

    More western propaganda... the Soviets didn't care about crews... that is why the KV-1 and T-34 had no armour to start with, and why they only had more tanks that the rest of the world combined at the start of WWII because the Soviets wanted their soldiers to walk everywhere.

    Compare the numbers of germans tanks crew that died and soviet ones.

    The one who separeted the munition from the crew were the americans. And now russians are doing it too.

    Bullshit. If they wanted an all stealth air force where is their F-35 cheaper lightweight numbers stealth fighter?

    Mig didn't produced it. Now they are stuck with the mig35 that is just an upgraded mig29. The airforce would more than happy to get a single engine small and light fighter. With the order of 76 su-57 and the other sukhois, its very unlikely they buy more than a handfull of mig-35.

    Can't possibly have anything to do with the French.... because they were delivered on time.

    Very funny. Russian fanboys are easily trigered when they hear the truth about Russia buying stuff from France. Thermal cameras, HUD, Felin system, engines for their mighty civilian planes (which are bought only because they use french engines) ....

    Try again.

    When?

    They want a blue water navy. You don't use a blue water navy to defend your borders.

    In syria they were merely testing blind bombing equipment added to the Su-33s... the same system added to the Su-24 and other platforms.

    You don't send a carrier to test a targeting system. They wabted to show the world they can attack far from their home with a carrier and they are back in the game. They failed and lost 50 million worth of aircraft.

    Moscow is supporting the democratically elected leader of Venezuela....

    Not really. They want to oppose the US. But Maduro is a failure with or without US intervention. He will be removed one day and people will see russia as the one who helped him. And the support to maduro is very weak, they eveb removed their staff because Maduro doesn't pay the russian companies.

    So you are saying the Russian S-400 battery should have shot down Israeli F-16s because the Syrians shot down a Russian Il-20 elint aircraft... too much kool aide rots the brain it seems.

    Syrian targeted israeli. Israeli used the il-20 as a protection. Russia should have destroyed them.

    And when it is not your home you provide the owner with the tools they need to kill snakes on their property... currently it keeps the snakes out but it likes to sit next door and spit venom over the fence when it can.

    The snake is in is the garden and still biting.

    Western democracies are not democracies... laws are created via bribes so the rich are in control and the people have no say at all.

    Yeah people have a lot to say in China and iran. Twisted Evil Those in charge in these countries are poor, they eat salades at every meal whike the people rides in 40k$ cars and drinks french wine. Rolling Eyes

    You shoukd go live their if western societies suck so much. And brig MikeTheterrible with you. Very good idea no ?


    When?

    Patriot shot down a Tornado in Iraq or Saudi Arabia, but was destroyed when it locked on an F-16... Russian and Soviet Fencers are armed with better ARMs than F-16s are.

    Israeli partriot destroyed syrian su-24.

    Mistakes happen. The west still uses Patriot. The MiG-31 is still the worlds most capable interceptor.

    Of course a friend kill from a patriot means the patriot is shit. A friend kill from a mig is a mistake.

    The thing is that durig war the crew is more stressed. The thing on their screen can be a enemy with ARM so they want it to be removed fast. This mig-31 kill was during an exercice so its even worse.

    Wear a high viz jacket in Paris and get an eye removed or a hand blown off... democracy.

    There were 44 manifestations from yellow vests in entire france. Medias were there just like some asshole that wanted to destroy everything and just like some cops that wanted to use their weapons for no reason. But at the end it shows how we are free to express our opinions.

    You do the same in China or iran and they bring in the army. If chinese and iranians are happy with that it's good for me. But don't me tell they are a free people.

    So which countries did the Australian Aboriginies colonise, or the Chinese for that matter, or how about the native American indians...

    I'm an expert but I know that american indians used to fight btw them and it was very uggly. They are not the peacefull people that many believes they were.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:54 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Listen, you guys waste time with a child.  He couldn't even get the near basic of AESA radar modules correct, but he talks as if he knows what he is saying.  He didn't know where modules are placed, what kind of modules and knows the concept behind the design and manufacturing of it.  But talks about "experience" as if it really matters when it doesn't.  Matter of fact is, China has no experience in AESA but already produces GaN modules and producing their own AESA radars too.

    Its sad when people just waste breath debating with someone who dances around the same concept over and over again, regardless if he was proven wrong and was shown how ridiculous his claims are.

    Its simple.  Learn the basics first of how they are designed and how they are placed, then we can continue.

    Oh, and no, experience means squat.  Technology is what matters here, and they obtained it long ago.  Modules makes the difference, not the experience.  And the modules are built no different than that in the US, Europe or Asia.  Vice versa.

    Might I suggest we just mute him, and move on? Rather than derailing or dancing in circles?

    You proved nothing. Fighter mounted aesa is still different from your Nebo exemple. Your linked didn't prove that they use same elements. Even if they use the same, size matters and its much more harder to make a small radar than a big one. Specially for cooling it. Nebo is deployed since years while they still have no aiborne mounted radars. Byelka was still development last year. If nebo and byelka are the same thing they would have done it in 1 or 2 months. The fact they didn't prove your claims are total bullshit.

    I don't dance around anything. All my claims are backed by real proof. Yours not really. Your only argument is to talk like you know everything and say "kid" when you have no argument.

    The guy from twitter that I quote in Syrian war thread said that chinese radars sucks. And they are not even using their aesa but basic ones. So there is a guy that works for syrian air defence that tests in a real war those radars who said they sucks and there is you, a rondom guy who has family that works in radars who says they are very good. I will believe the syrian guy.

    Experience is usefull in engineering. If you think you need some engineers that understand the physics of radars to build very good one then you should go back to school.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:01 pm

    If I resume what you say Russia waited for aesa to be cheaper (and for stealth too I presume ? ). Is it correct?

    Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).

    A su-35 is something like 25 million $ according to MikeTheterrible who saw that in the contract signed by the russian air force.

    So a su-57 is 3-4 times more expensive than a su35.

    US f-15 are ~100 million and f-22 ~300 million. 3-4 times also.

    It seems that Russia is facing the same issues 20 years later.


    In terms of leading scientific fields, western companies are faaaar from any chinese or russian ones. Specially for the civil productions. Those investment in new materials and electronics for weapons are directly reinjected in the civilian products. That's why they are leaders and russia and china not.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:47 pm

    Isos continuing to dig himself deeper and deeper  Very Happy

    Yeah they're "leaders"...that must be why they're flapping around like headless chickens trying desperately to sabotage development of Russia and China.

    Overpriced "Superior tech" marketed to a happy customer
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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:32 pm

    Of course they will sabotage Russia and China. Those two countries are the only one that can compete on all level against them.

    Underpriced russian and chinese tech isn't doing better. It isn't doing anything actually. If they succeed they end up like Huawei sanctioned and destroyed because they rely on things they can't control i.e on western. Huawei, russian engine for ships, monetary systems, component for civilian planes ...

    Western products rely on things we can control from a to z. Any problem in those poor countries that produce for us and they make a regime change. Russia wants to play to much USSR style, they get sanctionned. China wants takes the lead in something US sanction them.

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east, the oil and sell weapons to them. And btw russia would more than happy to sell him weapons and they already sold him some Tos-1 MLRS for its war in yemen. Something you forget to say.


    Last edited by Isos on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Azi

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    Post  Azi on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:42 pm

    Isos wrote:In terms of leading scientific fields, western companies are faaaar from any chinese or russian ones. Specially for the civil productions. Those investment in new materials and electronics for weapons are directly reinjected in the civilian products. That's why they are leaders and russia and china not.
    No sorry that's bullshit! Im scientist and most companies are doing ZERO, I repeat...ZERO for the research! Basic research is done at institutes and universities. And here is Russia quite good. By the way science is really international, scientist communicate with each other and they often attend conferences. Companies just buy the technology and refines the technology for a specific use. Military research is done in some "special institutes", or civilian working groups are obliged to keep silent, if the research is done at a university. The results of the research are later transfered to companies, in whatever way possible.
    The research in companies looks more like...oh our IRST has a range of 50 km, let's try 52 km...here we have Aspirin, let's add some fany taste to it...our mobile has 2 cameras, let's add a third one and let's see what coool stuff we can do with it.

    By the way...I have to read a lot of papers and journals (chemistry) and the best publications are western, japanese and russian/soviet publications. There is no difference in quality between russian papers and papers from western countries, only quantity is different. Really crap are chinese and indian papers, after a few minutes reading you realize it's complete bullshit (96%). African papers are really, really, really exotic and not really good, most are in french language and not translated o.O

    An example...
    In Darmstadt in Germany the GSI (Society for Heavy Ion Research) are building a new acceleration ring and nearly all magnets and other high tech components coming from Russia. This is astonishing, because many consider Russia to be Nigeria or some other african 3. world country, only additional with atomic bombs in possession.

    The only thing that russian companies really lacks are a good distribution in other countries. The Superjet was in western countries a flop, not because it's a bad jet...the Superjet is a great airplane, but the distribution of spare parts in western countries was a disaster! Every day a jet is grounded the company makes minus. So Russia have to learn more advertisment and good distribution, than creating high tech products. Markets are very traditional, it's not easy for foreign companies to win a market...they have to spend a lot of money for advertisment and need patience.

    ---

    Companies like Lockheed Martin, or bureaus like Sukhoi etc...they are not doing any basic research, they create products. In the end they assemble selfstyled or buyed parts to weapon systems. Of course they do some research...but it's no basic research, like creating a quantum radar. Quantum technology is developed by civilian universities. We should not mistake apples for pears.

    But you are right in the point that western products are of really high quality, because the companies have a lot of expertise and experience. Russian products are not bad at all, when China and India rely often on russian products, the can't be so bad...India has full access to western weapon market.


    Last edited by Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Azi on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:47 pm

    Isos wrote:Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).
    That's the point! All defence companies of Russia are owned by the state itself, so they don't have to maximize the profit. Compare this with Boeing or Lockheed Martin Wink
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:06 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Isos wrote: Russia waited for aesa to be cheaper (and for stealth too I presume ? ). Is it correct?


    Not, the Federation Institutes not expected АФАР, rather having pioneered electronically scanned array and computed, at reason, that improvement in ПФАР technology would have granted superiority in the most important parameters over coevian АФАР at a fraction of the cost, design today АФАР for fighter aircraft -multi band ones- only as a transient solution waiting for the completion of omni band vehicle-blended radars from the "РОФАР" program ,with a level of performace a whole order of magnitude superior to the most advanced  АФАР and ПФАР today operative worldwide.

    About the so called "stealth" technology i have wrote several times about its origin in the Soviet times with hundreds of publications by part of dozen of titan names of Soviet Science the majority of which is still today covered by State's secret and how this very deep theoretical understanding of the Physics involved and all the related complex mathematical modeling (well beyond what publied with Soviet Scientifical Commision approval by comrade П.Я́. Уфи́мцев with itsd physical theory of diffraction that also thanks to its personal involvment have given birth in the USA to the modern low observable vehicles) without any peer, allow our Institutes to compute with almost absolute accuracy the effective scattering area of any object today produced abroad or domestically and those effective area of scattering are often even 2 or 3 order of magnitude greater than the comical figures usually circulating in public environment or for PR purposes.

    Therefore none more than us know the real....instead of phantasious..... impact of the "stealth" on the detection and acquisition ranges when confronted with advanced radars and at different bands, an effect that is doomed to reduce even furtherly in the next decade.
    Therefore you will never see a domestic military product ,not now nad even less in the future, that will sacrifice other most important and long standing parameters features to reduce effective area of scattering over the threshold where it become advantageous only for the company producing it.

       



    Yeah so your PESA radars are as good as other AESA and your photonic radars are almost ready and it will see stealth easily. So why is su-57 stealth and has a aesa like f22 which makes it 3-4 times more expensive than a su-35 ?

    US have more experience with stealth than you. Geometry of the plane, RAM (which includes materials and paint). Soviet had the first but not the second. The first can be studied but second needs to be created and then tested. If you want to simulate an f-22 on a computer you can draw it but you won't know exactly what it is made of. So no you won't have an absolute accuracy about its rcs. Only an idea that can be totally false.

    US can test their f-22 directly by sending it in the airs and turning on ground radars (L band, x band, Trans horizon radars...) and they already did it and know how good it is against them.

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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:15 am

    Azi wrote:
    Isos wrote:Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).

    That's the point! All defence companies of Russia are owned by the state itself, so they don't have to maximize the profit. Compare this with Boeing or Lockheed Martin Wink

    Well you shouldn't compare. That will hurt some here.

    Boeing revenue: 101 billion $
    Sukhoi : 1 billion $

    The first one supply almost every country with thousand of planes (military and civilian) every year
    The second sold less than 100 every years and its only civilian plane is mostly using foreign parts and is not even bought by russians.

    That's not the point actually. They desperatly need more export clients and to sell in bigger numbers because every new technology is more expensive than the previous and needs more money for r&d. Su-57 is an exemple. It's not even produce for russian but is already proposed for export.

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    Post  Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:31 am

    Isos wrote:US have more experience with stealth than you. Geometry of the plane, RAM (which includes materials and paint). Soviet had the first but not the second. The first can be studied but second needs to be created and then tested. If you want to simulate an f-22 on a computer you can draw it but you won't know exactly what it is made of. So no you won't have an absolute accuracy about its rcs. Only an idea that can be totally false.
    USSR had experience in stealth, both geometry and RAM. The Ch-101 is a stealth CM and research dates back to beginning of the 80ies. New designs like Mig1.44 were supposed to have a real small RCS, compared to older legacy fighters, but soviet designers never sacrificed aerodynamic capabilities for stealth.

    By the way...first RAM dates back to 2. WW! The snorkel of german submarines were coated with RAM. So RAM is very old, only the concept of geometry is really new in designing stealth planes. Okay, now more RAM coatings are available, than 40 or 50 years ago.

    Isos wrote:
    US can test their f-22 directly by sending it in the airs and turning on ground radars (L band, x band, Trans horizon radars...) and they already did it and know how good it is against them.
    The concept of stealth is that stealth airplanes don't use the radar, they have other "eyes" in the sky...AWACS, another stealth plane with radar in LPI mode or a legacy fighter with good radar. This makes the other stealth aircraft nearly invisible in X-Band Radar. The problem is if the "eye" is hit by a missile, because the eye is not invisible. That was clear from beginning to end for soviet scientist, that the "eye" is the weakest point in stealth technology, and AWACS could be hit by large distance from Russian IADS. And that was also clear for USA, so first strike would be a nonstealthy saturation attack against Russian IADS, after that stealth aicrafts could fly more or less free.

    The problem...USSR rated their IADS very strong, they had no real need and hurry for stealth. The USA rated their attack capabilities very strong and relied on stealth. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, as we can see in Kosovo War 1999.

    Russian army has now a different concept of using stealth, than 20 years before. The concept is more...let's write aggressive. And they take advantage of really crappy AD-Systems of NATO countries working in X-Band. It's funny that western countries don't try to counter their own technology. What a Face
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    Post  Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:46 am

    Isos wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    Isos wrote:Well, su-57 is officially 80-100 million $ from what I saw and they manage to reduce it to 50 million (no one really knows how they did so but it seems it's not the technology that became cheaper but they are producing at lost because Putin ordered so).

    That's the point! All defence companies of Russia are owned by the state itself, so they don't have to maximize the profit. Compare this with Boeing or Lockheed Martin Wink

    Well you shouldn't compare. That will hurt some here.

    Boeing revenue: 101 billion $
    Sukhoi : 1 billion $

    The first one supply almost every country with thousand of  planes (military and civilian) every year
    The second sold less than 100 every years and its only civilian plane is mostly using foreign parts and is not even bought by russians.

    That's not the point actually. They desperatly need more export clients and to sell in bigger numbers because every new technology is more expensive than the previous and needs more money for r&d. Su-57 is an exemple. It's not even produce for russian but is already proposed for export.

    In every Boeing and Airbus russian parts are inside!!! Boeing spends over 1 billion US-$ for titanium parts per year, build in Russia. The parts are build in Russia, not only the titanium comes from Russia. Boeing has a joint venture, the "Ural Boeing Manufacturing". Boeing has also a design center in Russia with 1200 employees.

    No titanium, no new planes! But it's funny that Russia is not playing the sanctions game in this part of economy Wink so they prefer to do reliable biznjezz Wink

    I hope you now understand the problem...Boeing/Airbus sells to everyone the planes, but Sukhoi can't because they need first a distribution system for spare parts. A good distribution system is more complicated than building one perfect product. And by the way...western planes are more expensive, than russian ones Wink so with a good distribution system and quality near to wetsren planes they will have good chance.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:22 am

    You mean service system, not distribution.

    Right now that is what Borisov has said is being done - coming up with a strong service structure within Russia (first) for all civil jets of Russian origin.
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    Post  Azi on Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:01 am

    miketheterrible wrote:You mean service system, not distribution.

    Right now that is what Borisov has said is being done - coming up with a strong service structure within Russia (first) for all civil jets of Russian origin.
    Yes! Laughing

    My english... lol!

    That's the best Russia can do...being strong in home market! And later expand step by step. I remember Airbus as a small company, a union of even smaller companies, trying to attack the big companies of USA (Boeing, Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas) at the market with A300.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:28 am

    Isos wrote:Of course they will sabotage Russia and China. Those two countries are the only one that can compete on all level against them.

    More schizophrenic BS...why would they need to sabotage (actually it's more like panic attack) if they are so far ahead??...they should be able to out compete easily

    The problem is they're uncompetitive...and they know it!

    Underpriced russian and chinese tech isn't doing better. It isn't doing anything actually. If they succeed they end up like Huawei sanctioned and destroyed because they rely on things they can't control i.e on western. Huawei, russian engine for ships, monetary systems, component for civilian planes ...

    Yeah I noticed..Huawei is going out of business and Russia is about to collapse. I think I've heard that joke about 100 times in the past 20 years..it's called cutting the branch you're sitting on by destroying the confidence in the system.

    Western products rely on things we can control from a to z. Any problem in those poor countries that produce for us and they make a regime change. Russia wants to play to much USSR style, they get sanctionned. China wants takes the lead in something US sanction them.


    Again, you can't compete so you become a whining, crying baby throwing a tantrum...and your "regime change" is starting to look like really really rusty

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east, the oil and sell weapons to them. And btw russia would more than happy to sell him weapons and they already sold him some Tos-1 MLRS for its war in yemen. Something you forget to say.

    I think your "control" of the ME is looking pretty shaky to put it mildly

    I haven't heard any complaints about the TOS, unlike the "superior" stuff they bought
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:23 am

    They would have a thousabd of them if USSR didn't collapse.

    No, after making less than 200 they realised that even plans for 750 was going to be unaffordable... now they have made 300 F35s they are having the same realisation...

    Turkey is pissed off of not getting the f-35.

    Only because they are paid for, and Turkey makes parts of the wing so if they get cut out of the programme it will cost them money too.

    Compare the numbers of germans tanks crew that died and soviet ones.

    If the British and French had kept fighting the Germans as long as the Soviets did they might have gotten comparable losses, but instead the former ran away and the French gave up.

    The one who separeted the munition from the crew were the americans.

    No they didn't. The Abrams carries rounds next to the driver so any penetrating round has the chance of killing the entire crew.... just like on all other tanks.

    Mig didn't produced it.

    Because the Russian leadership saw stealth as a money pit the Americans had already fallen for...

    Now they are stuck with the mig35 that is just an upgraded mig29. The airforce would more than happy to get a single engine small and light fighter. With the order of 76 su-57 and the other sukhois, its very unlikely they buy more than a handfull of mig-35.

    It is the lower operating costs of the MiG-35 that will make it the more useful purchases of the RuAF in the future...

    Very funny. Russian fanboys are easily trigered when they hear the truth about Russia buying stuff from France. Thermal cameras, HUD, Felin system, engines for their mighty civilian planes (which are bought only because they use french engines) ....

    Russia also bought the Maxim machine gun, but that didn't result in them buying only American designed Machine Guns for the rest of eternity...

    After WWII they bought British Derwent and Nene Jet engines, but they didn't keep buying British engines afterwards either.

    For modern Russia, France is making it compulsory that Russia makes its own stuff due to sanctions.... thanks France, classy as always.

    Hope you enjoy WWII celebrations next year with Britain and Germany and the US... you can pretend the Soviets had nothing to do with it and they were the bad guys all along.

    They want a blue water navy. You don't use a blue water navy to defend your borders.

    They want a blue water navy because there is no such thing as international law any more... if Russia wants access to a world market it needs to be able to access it itself and a blue water navy is the obvious solution.


    You don't send a carrier to test a targeting system.

    You send a carrier when you have never used carrier based aircraft before... the Kuznetsov needs to work as part of the naval team from gathering intel on the target via special forces on the ground and satellite images and UAV footage, to forming plans and executing attacks... and Syria was the ideal testing ground for that.

    They wabted to show the world they can attack far from their home with a carrier and they are back in the game.

    They were already hitting targets with cruise missiles... this was just an opportunity to test some new aircraft (MiGs) and upgraded Sukhois, and to get a system working that they had never used against real targets before because they are not murdering  censored  like the west is mostly made of.

    They failed and lost 50 million worth of aircraft.

    Actually they flew over 1,600 sorties... mostly from land bases but planned from the K, so they didn't fail... and 50 million wouldn't even pay for one US operation there...

    Not really. They want to oppose the US. But Maduro is a failure with or without US intervention. He will be removed one day and people will see russia as the one who helped him. And the support to maduro is very weak, they eveb removed their staff because Maduro doesn't pay the russian companies.

    Blah blah blah, Maduro is democratically elected president of Venezuela and remains in power because the Venezuelan public are behind him.

    Syrian targeted israeli. Israeli used the il-20 as a protection. Russia should have destroyed them.

    Of course.... in Hollywood land when you shoot down Jewish Criminals all the good guys come back to life... the American dream...

    The snake is in is the garden and still biting.

    The snake is very careful never to cross the fence...

    Yeah people have a lot to say in China and iran.

    China is not a democracy and has never claimed to be one, but in Iran the people get a vote... including women... unlike many countries in the region the west supports. The women in Iran have rather more rights in places the west seems to worship like Saudi Arabia. Of course since the NATO forces arrived Afghanistan is a utopia for women too now.

    You shoukd go live their if western societies suck so much. And brig MikeTheterrible with you. Very good idea no ?

    Perhaps Mike and I should remain in these criminal western societies and continue to demand they live up to the bullshit propaganda they preach... sometimes honourable people appear... like Sanders... but they are easy meat for criminals like the Clintons... but you clearly think there is no chance for the west at all if you are suggesting people who point out the faults and mistakes should leave. Doesn't surprise me... you are French and you have been told that Snowden and Assange are the enemy and you do as you are told.

    Israeli partriot destroyed syrian su-24.

    When?

    Of course a friend kill from a patriot means the patriot is shit. A friend kill from a mig is a mistake.

    Patriot is known to be shit... how many drones did it shoot down in Saudi Arabia?  It can't even cover more than 120 degrees...

    The thing is that durig war the crew is more stressed. The thing on their screen can be a enemy with ARM so they want it to be removed fast. This mig-31 kill was during an exercice so its even worse.

    The Patriot system that shot down the Tornado and tried to shoot down an F-16 was in automatic mode... no stress at all.

    But at the end it shows how we are free to express our opinions.

    Free as long as you accept chance of being physically blinded, or having your fingers blown off... real freedom you have there...

    Will only be a matter of time before drones are flying in western skies to kill enemies of the state... did you think that documentary was just a movie...

    Do you have permission to post here?  Is that the hum of a black helicopter outside your window?

    You do the same in China or iran and they bring in the army.

    The western media in HK would be broadcasting any issues regarding eye damage or finger loss pretty damn quickly...

    Besides... after the police tell you to go home you are breaking the law by remaining so I don't give a fuck about them to be honest, but get your own shit together before you start preaching the gospel to others.

    Resist police in China... get a nobel peace prize, do it in the west and expect to get the shit kicked out of you, or prison.

    If chinese and iranians are happy with that it's good for me. But don't me tell they are a free people.

    They are in many ways more free than you, because they know there are no real freedoms.

    I'm an expert but I know that american indians used to fight btw them and it was very uggly. They are not the peacefull people that many believes they were.

    Yes, yes, yes... they were just primitives... fighting and eating each other... they had no concept of property so we bought their land for some muskets and some beads and then when they realised that we screwed them over they started fighting us, but by then we outnumbered them and generally massacred them till they signed a piece of paper agreeing that what we stole from them we stole fair and square... yeah, I know how it works...

    Byelka was still development last year. If nebo and byelka are the same thing they would have done it in 1 or 2 months. The fact they didn't prove your claims are total bullshit.

    So now you are saying radars are radars... have you ever heard of systems like the Sgt York, or the Marauder?

    The Sgt York was an air defence gun system that was going to be a quick and fast solution to the gap in the US Army where the Shilka fit.

    They took an existing tank chassis... the M48, and put a huge turret with two 40mm Bofors anti aircraft guns... good air defence guns, so that should be OK, and then they took the radar from an F-18 and used that as the tracking radar and it was bloody useless... they tried for years to get it to work.

    The Marauder was a missile system similar to TOR, and it was a total waste of time too for many of the same reasons.... but the radar in the F-18 works... duh... maybe ground based radar and aircraft based radar are different and are not totally interchangeable like you think... apart from the fact that they are generally made by totally different companies of course...

    The guy from twitter that I quote in Syrian war thread said that chinese radars sucks.

    We have had a guy from a NATO country say NATO sucks, and we have had guys from Serbia saying US radars are not so great... the fact is that most equipment is not all it is cracked up to be much of the time.

    But of course cold war mantra dictates that anything bad about Soviet stuff must be true and anything positive must be propaganda... hense there is no way a smoothbore tank gun could be any good but tank gun autoloaders rip loaders arms off so often they have a special parade for one armed loaders... except that tanks with autoloaders don't have loaders...

    In particular influence of some persistently repeated "half truth" or patentely false notions that with time become accepted as true, bypassing critical thinking, (the basis of modern western PR operation doctrine) have, in the opinion of several contributors here, caused some ,but not obviously all, of your positions to be based on wrong assumptions or "false symmetry" mistakes.

    It was something that I suspected all along but really became obvious when things were not so well hidden.

    For years there was one writeup of the Stechkin Machine Pistol... I think it was Ian V Hogg who wrote the original and every western publication regarding the weapon just repeated that writeup... the Stechkin is big and heavy and under powered and totally inaccurate. A total failure as a machine pistol.

    But into the 1990s eastern bloc paramilitary groups kept using it... even Russian special forces kept using it...

    Then British magazines published an actual account of a guy who actually fired one and he quite liked it.

    It was heavy... compared with a Makarov... but lighter than a 45 colt... and 20 9mm holes in the target is going to be more effective than 7 x .45 calibre ones.

    He described it as comfortable and in a room sized distance a burst will land all your shots on the upper torso of a human target... which is what you want.

    The Makarov is less powerful than a 9mm parabellum but with FMJ ammo as used with a military weapon they both make 9mm holes in the target... the western 9mm is more powerful...  a heavier bullet moving faster, but all the vests that will stop one will generally stop both so in practical terms there is no real difference except the Soviet round can be used in simpler blowback weapons.

    Equally during the cold war we were told that western technology is better, but in terms of guns including aircraft cannon the Soviet weapons just seemed better.

    We were supposed to believe that western gear was designed to kill efficiently but also protect western soldiers lives, while the Soviet stuff was just crap copies of western stuff.

    When US airborne soldiers were walking or riding in trucks, VDV were riding in armoured vehicles... but then when most US infantrymen were walking or riding in trucks Soviet soldiers were riding in armoured and armed BTRs...

    It seems that Russia is facing the same issues 20 years later.

    Except that over time production of the AESAs will get even cheaper for Russia, which is what you should expect, but they only seem to be getting more expensive for the US... the whole point of the F-35 was smaller lightweight fighter that everyone uses... there was supposed to be economies in making it smaller and also because everyone was going to buy some, but it is only getting more and more expensive, which is a negative spiral because as it gets more expensive, like any product... they started out wanting 3,500 of them... they started out wanting 1,500 F-22s... simply because it is easier to say they will be cheaper if you need to make a lot... large scale production drives down the costs... when you plan to develop and produce 5 planes then development costs are split into 5. If you plan to make 5 thousand then the development costs are practically eliminated from the cost of the aircraft and production costs become the main factor in the price of the aircraft.

    When you block the purchase of 100 aircraft from a country that makes parts for the wing... you reduce production numbers and you complicate production for the rest of the aircraft because you now need to find a company to make them to spec on time with next to no warning and you just lost 100 aircraft sales... which is also going to drive up costs.

    Poland is getting 32... from about 2023 or something... which is going to be fantastic... when their operational costs blow their entire military budget and they don't have any pilots or ground crew qualified on the aircraft because it hasn't been in the air enough we will see what a fantastic aircraft it really is and what an important contribution AESA and stealth make to NATO.

    Those two countries are the only one that can compete on all level against them.


    But you just said western companies are faaar ahead of them...

    If they succeed they end up like Huawei sanctioned and destroyed because they rely on things they can't control i.e on western. Huawei, russian engine for ships, monetary systems, component for civilian planes ...

    Huawei are no where near destroyed... and they are looking at Russian and Chinese alternatives to US OS... which will mean the US will not longer get any money from their sales... even if the entire market in the US is blocked... it is only 350 million people... they have four times bigger market in their own country.

    The return sanctions will likely force Apple to move production out of China... but they wont go to the US... they will go to the next poor country on their list... probably Bangledesh... but in 15-20 years time they might move production to the US Hahahahahahahahaha... because of the poverty in the US by then.

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east, the oil and sell weapons to them. And btw russia would more than happy to sell him weapons and they already sold him some Tos-1 MLRS for its war in yemen. Something you forget to say.

    Yeah, the Soviets sold gas to Europe all through much of the cold war... even when the US was supplying Stingers and Milan missiles to terrorists... it is the west that wages an economic as well as a political warfare on the world... why shouldn't they sell to Saudi Arabia?

    Yeah so your PESA radars are as good as other AESA and your photonic radars are almost ready and it will see stealth easily. So why is su-57 stealth and has a aesa like f22 which makes it 3-4 times more expensive than a su-35 ?

    Because western experts wont have photonic radars for a while and even when they do most of their weapons and systems wont have it either, so reduced RCS is useful for some of their fighter aircraft, but not for all of them.

    Max stealth has too many harsh requirements that compromise performance... no external weapons, or external fuel... the obvious, plus relatively delicate coatings and emissions control of radars and datalinks to minimise signature.


    US have more experience with stealth than you.

    They also have more experience with aircraft carriers too... does that mean Zircons wont sink US carriers?

    If you want to simulate an f-22 on a computer you can draw it but you won't know exactly what it is made of. So no you won't have an absolute accuracy about its rcs. Only an idea that can be totally false.

    The design of the F-22 doesn't absorb radar, it redirects it... it is basically the opposite of a luneberg lens... the materials it is made of and the coatings applied will effect the strength of the signals reflected but not their direction...

    Different RAM designs will have different performances which can be simulated by computer fairly easily.

    US can test their f-22 directly by sending it in the airs and turning on ground radars (L band, x band, Trans horizon radars...) and they already did it and know how good it is against them.

    Against their own radars and captured radars, but not current in service Russian radars.

    The US sent helicopters in to take out radars right at the start of Desert Storm... which suggests a vulnerability to specific radar. Interception during the Kosovo campaign also suggests the same... yet neither Iraq nor Serbia had modern Soviet or Russian radar sets...

    Boeing revenue: 101 billion $
    Sukhoi : 1 billion $

    So the US taxpayer gave Boeing 100 billion dollars more than they needed (that is what profit is) and the Russian taxpayer gave Sukhoi 1 billion more than they needed... gee... I wonder which will think they are getting ripped off.

    Yeah I noticed..Huawei is going out of business and Russia is about to collapse. I think I've heard that joke about 100 times in the past 20 years..it's called cutting the branch you're sitting on by destroying the confidence in the system.

    Actually the real reason the US has tried to sabotage Huawei is because their encryption is quantum based and the Americans can't break it and Huawei wont give them a back door.

    This guy on your picture is a puppet thanks to which US control the middle east

    That is amusing, so the US controls the Middle East.... they would have more luck trying to control Middle Earth... they have broken Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya... Russia and Iran are helping Syria restore peace, Iraq has realised the big bad guy is the US and not Iran, and Irans position in the region is becoming helpful neighbour despite what Saudi Arabia and Israel and the US are squealing...


    Last edited by GarryB on Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:25 am

    More schizophrenic BS...why would they need to sabotage (actually it's more like panic attack) if they are so far ahead??...they should be able to out compete easily

    The problem is they're uncompetitive...and they know it!

    And who is competing against us ? In what fields ? Aeronotics ? Airbus and boeing have no competitors.
    Computing ? US leads that with microsoft.
    Smartphones ? Its either apple or android.

    Yeah I noticed..Huawei is going out of business and Russia is about to collapse. I think I've heard that joke about 100 times in the past 20 years..it's called cutting the branch you're sitting on by destroying the confidence in the system.

    With no android, they won't sell their smartphones. Their 5G network is forbiden in many countries. That will impact them.


    I think your "control" of the ME is looking pretty shaky to put it mildly

    The rich countries that are worth something are our exclusive clients. The poor and destroyed ones (Iran, Syria, Yemen) are russians client. And you expect that Russia is competitive with such clients.

    In the short time when sanctions were off in iran, they bought western planes and hurried up to sign contracts with us and didn't give a fuck about your Russia.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:29 am

    No, after making less than 200 they realised that even plans for 750 was going to be unaffordable... now they have made 300 F35s they are having the same realisation...

    That's already enough. The f-35 is still produced.

    If the British and French had kept fighting the Germans as long as the Soviets did they might have gotten comparable losses, but instead the former ran away and the French gave up.

    French didn't gave up, they lost. There was no more army.
    British kept fighting as much as they could.

    If Staline did believe that Germany was attacking him, it would have been better for USSR too.

    Because the Russian leadership saw stealth as a money pit the Americans had already fallen for...

    And they are falling in it right now.

    It is the lower operating costs of the MiG-35 that will make it the more useful purchases of the RuAF in the future...

    What future ?

    They want a blue water navy because there is no such thing as international law any more... if Russia wants access to a world market it needs to be able to access it itself and a blue water navy is the obvious solution.

    They already have access to it.

    You send a carrier when you have never used carrier based aircraft before... the Kuznetsov needs to work as part of the naval team from gathering intel on the target via special forces on the ground and satellite images and UAV footage, to forming plans and executing attacks... and Syria was the ideal testing ground for that.

    In other words, attack a weak enemy with a multi billion dollars equipment. Just like US.

    You said russian carrier is used as a air defnece protection for a fleet. Where are the enemy ships in Syria trying to destroy russian ships ? West of Alleppo or maybe north west ?


    They were already hitting targets with cruise missiles... this was just an opportunity to test some new aircraft (MiGs) and upgraded Sukhois, and to get a system working that they had never used against real targets before because they are not murdering censored like the west is mostly made of.

    If they wanted to test the plane they could have send them from Khmeimim.

    You say they test weapon against real poeples, and in the same sentance you say they are not murderers like west. You should read what you write.

    Actually they flew over 1,600 sorties... mostly from land bases but planned from the K, so they didn't fail... and 50 million wouldn't even pay for one US operation there...

    The flew from a land base mostly.

    Blah blah blah, Maduro is democratically elected president of Venezuela and remains in power because the Venezuelan public are behind him.

    Yeah what about the democratically elected opposition at the assembly ? The army is behind him.

    The snake is very careful never to cross the fence...

    Tell that to the one bombed in syria by israeli every week.

    The Marauder was a missile system similar to TOR, and it was a total waste of time too for many of the same reasons.... but the radar in the F-18 works... duh... maybe ground based radar and aircraft based radar are different and are not totally interchangeable like you think... apart from the fact that they are generally made by totally different companies of course

    I was the one who said it's not because russia makes ground based huge aesa radars that it can make airborne ones easily.

    Read again.

    Patriot is known to be shit... how many drones did it shoot down in Saudi Arabia? It can't even cover more than 120 degrees...

    It is shit if you look at his capabilities to destroy something it was made for destroying.

    Let's talk about that when those syrian maned S-300 get destroyed.

    When?

    Google is your friend.

    But you just said western companies are faaar ahead of them...

    They don't take risks. Thats why they will keep being far ahead.

    Free as long as you accept chance of being physically blinded, or having your fingers blown off... real freedom you have there...

    Freedom in west doesn't mean free to destroy. Yellow vests in Iran or China would have been killed fast in the best scenario.


    Resist police in China... get a nobel peace prize

    Why ? It's a free country according to you.

    In China believing in god send you in camps. Very nice this freedom.

    Because western experts wont have photonic radars

    What will they have ? They will go back and study PESA radars ?

    So the US taxpayer gave Boeing 100 billion dollars more than they needed (that is what profit is) and the Russian taxpayer gave Sukhoi 1 billion more than they needed... gee... I wonder which will think they are getting ripped off.

    Keep believing US taxes pays everything in US. More biased and you die from hate.

    The thing is that boeig is selling thousands of planes to the world. Sulhoi 48 su-35 and few ssj100. That like racing against a ferrari with a lada.

    Actually the real reason the US has tried to sabotage Huawei is because their encryption is quantum based and the Americans can't break it and Huawei wont give them a back door.

    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:38 am

    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.

    No, they just can't compete Very Happy ...how many times do we have to point out the blatantly obvious cheers ...end of discussion

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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:54 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.

    No, they just can't compete  Very Happy ...how many times do we have to point out the blatantly obvious  cheers ...end of discussion


    Yeah I see that.

    Look at the reality. They are at the top and no one can compete against them. At least on the short/medium term. And even when China will become too strong economically, they will face US EU and japan because rich countries will always choose US rather than China or russia.

    Trump is getting back all the money they may have lost. Chinese can't compete on the sanctions they impose to them. EU is their puppet. Russia is not a competitor in anything. Japan is their puppet and the world has no will to move from dollar to another currency, even russia and China used dollars in their billateral ties rather than theur own currencies.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:25 pm

    Isos wrote:Trump is getting back all the money they may have lost. Chinese can't compete on the sanctions they impose to them. EU is their puppet. Russia is not a competitor in anything. Japan is their puppet and the world has no will to move from dollar to another currency, even russia and China used dollars in their billateral ties rather than theur own currencies.

    Buddy, you just don't have a f*cking clue.... but don't worry, as you are not alone. The US is stuffed choc-a-blok full of empty-head exceptionalists who can't adjust to the changing world, but eventually, reality will intrude on their space-spaces and they'll have no choice but to pull their heads outta their posteriors and smell the coffee. Laughing Laughing

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:40 am

    And who is competing against us ? In what fields ? Aeronotics ? Airbus and boeing have no competitors.

    Ignorance is bliss.

    Computing ? US leads that with microsoft.

    Microsoft develops software, and pretty shitty software at that. Right now all European governments use Microsoft because of course in a democracy they have developed a monopoly and are dictating to western countries because those western countries no longer have any options... which is why the US is so easily able to spy and therefore also manipulate most of Europe.

    Their sanctions and spying are creating a market for alternatives.

    Smartphones ? Its either apple or android.

    Huawei are already in talks with Russian and Chinese companies regarding alternatives in OS and apps.

    With no android, they won't sell their smartphones.

    And when Android was first developed they probably said with no apple OS they wont sell their smart phones too.

    Their 5G network is forbiden in many countries. That will impact them.

    Of course it will seriously impact them... they are going to have to wait until the US develops 5G technology before they can benefit from it...

    The rich countries that are worth something are our exclusive clients. The poor and destroyed ones (Iran, Syria, Yemen) are russians client. And you expect that Russia is competitive with such clients.

    And that has made the US so rich..., well in a lot of debt, but the infrastructure and quality of life is amazing... well a few people are doing very very well.

    In the short time when sanctions were off in iran, they bought western planes and hurried up to sign contracts with us and didn't give a fuck about your Russia.

    Perfectly true... and you could say the same about Gadaffi and Assad and Saddam... when given the chance to suck up to the west they did it... and how did that work out for them?

    Iran had no reason to think Russia was anything but another try hard sucking up to the west, and for much of the early years Putin was trying hard to get in to the rich boys club. The G7 became the G8 in the late 1990s... there was no way Russia was rich enough to join then... it was all political.... ironic because their leaving in 2014 was also political too... but the problem with politics is that words really don't mean much unless they are backed up by action and most of the time by the time there is action from the west there is no way to reverse and you are stuck in that car crash.

    That's already enough. The f-35 is still produced.

    It is only enough if they make 3,000 F-35s and they aren't going to.

    I really hope they do because the economic albatross of 3,000 F-35s will destroy their economy.

    The denial will have to stop and they will have to say... what we are doing can't be right because it is really failing badly.

    French didn't gave up, they lost. There was no more army.
    British kept fighting as much as they could.

    The western allies didn't start fighting in europe till the realised that the Soviets were going to be entering Germany soon and if they didn't do anything all of europe would be liberated by the Soviets.

    If Staline did believe that Germany was attacking him, it would have been better for USSR too.

    Germany attacking the Soviet Union sounded like something the British would come up with to try to provoke the Soviets into manouvering aggressively and make the Germans want to attack them...

    And they are falling in it right now.

    No... you don't get it do you... they dipped their toe in the water and realised the water was a bit cold... they have waited for warmer weather so the water is still chilly but it is getting hot so a nice cool swim is just what they could use right now.

    They haven't blow 1.5 trillion dollars on an F-35... and however many other trillions on F-117s, and B-2s, and F-22s, and all those shit drones Iran had no problem capturing.

    What future ?

    Are you suggesting the Russian AF has no future or the MiG-35?

    India just bought 36 Rafales for about 8 billion dollars..., so if we divide 8 billion by 36, and then times that by 126, we get about 28 billion dollars for their MRCA winners that were supposed to cost 10 billion. I wonder why they wont continue in that direction.

    So their alternative is F-16 or MiG-29.... well the F-16s are actually older than the MiG-29s.... and diversification of sources only makes sense if it improves logistics, so a new source with a history of sanctions makes things worse, not better.

    They already have access to it.

    Not with any strength or duration.

    In other words, attack a weak enemy with a multi billion dollars equipment. Just like US.

    In a way yes, but the obvious fundamental difference is that this enemy picked Syria and Russia and is a terrorist organisation supported by Saudi Arabia, Israel, and the US.... not the other way around.

    You said russian carrier is used as a air defnece protection for a fleet. Where are the enemy ships in Syria trying to destroy russian ships ? West of Alleppo or maybe north west ?

    Of course... air defence means sink ships... that is why the attack on Saudi Arabia recently was so successful... because billions of dollars of Patriot batteries and also european systems were looking for ships to sink instead of threats in the air like an air defence system should.

    Part of coordination of a carrier within a group of ships includes communication, as well as operating aircraft like the Ka-31 AEW aircraft, and of course CAP to monitor the local airspace for aircraft, missiles, and ships or subs.

    If they wanted to test the plane they could have send them from Khmeimim.

    Of course they could... and in 20 years time when they are operating off the coast of Africa they will only need 20 inflight refuelling aircraft to launch their CAP missions and the odd air strike from Khmeimim.... and it will work like clockwork because they will have practised it...

    You say they test weapon against real poeples, and in the same sentance you say they are not murderers like west. You should read what you write.

    They test weapons against people who are terrorists and if successful, will bring the chaos they are trying to create in Syria back to Russia and Europe.

    Currently in Idlib, the people living there are living with terrorists... they mostly moved there from other areas in Syria where they supported the terrorists and now they move with the terrorists because they are allies... there are no innocent civilians there any more... they will have either left or been killed by the terrorists.

    The flew from a land base mostly.

    Of course, but the experience for the crew of the Kuznetsov to gather intel and plan and execute missions was valuable experience.

    Yeah what about the democratically elected opposition at the assembly ? The army is behind him.

    Aw... are you really that stupid... that is like saying Boris Johnson is the democratically elected leader of Britain... the people didn't vote for him... his party colleagues voted him in... there was nothing democratic about rich white men voting for an idiot. Just like the DNC voting for Hillary to be the opposition candidate against Trump... in fact it is even worse because most Venezuelans didn't even know who Guano was before the US claimed he should be king.

    Tell that to the one bombed in syria by israeli every week.

    I would have to shout... you do understand what stand off weapons are don't you?

    I was the one who said it's not because russia makes ground based huge aesa radars that it can make airborne ones easily.

    No, you are the one saying Russia doesn't know how to make AESA radars and is 20 years behind, and then when proven wrong that they don't know how to make airborne AESA radars...

    If they needed to have AESA fighter radars in service they would have done it... no matter the cost, or how bad they end up being... we have seen several iterations of the AESA for the MiG-35... if they were desperate they would have one... it might only be a 600x600 array with pathetic performance but they would have one in service.

    The facts are that they don't need one in service, their existing radars are already good enough for the task and a fraction of the cost of even a very bad cobbled together AESA radar. They are working on developing the technology to the point where it is better value for money which means cheaper and better performance.

    It is sad that you wont accept this reasoning and just think the Russians are stupid.

    When it came to nuclear weapons and nuclear propulsion they were behind too, but you wouldn't even notice now...

    It is shit if you look at his capabilities to destroy something it was made for destroying.

    Let's talk about that when those syrian maned S-300 get destroyed.

    Well the Patriot battery that tried to shoot down an F-16 was taken out rather easily by an ARM because Patriot is not designed to defend itself from ARMs... the S-300 version the Syrians have can... so it is going to take rather more to take down an S-300 than a Patriot, but lets ignore that and say the patriot is wonderful.

    Turkey doesn't think so, and I suspect Saudi Arabia is phoning the Russians as we speak.

    Google is your friend.

    Google is part of the enemy.

    They don't take risks. Thats why they will keep being far ahead.

    How ironic you say that... most would suggest that taking risks and making choices is part of leading... that is why they call it the (b)leading edge.


    Freedom in west doesn't mean free to destroy. Yellow vests in Iran or China would have been killed fast in the best scenario.

    Yes, western dogma and propaganda tell you this is true, but these protesters in Hong Kong are not being killed... but it could not be that your propaganda has failed you...

    Of course the amusing thing is that when there is a protest in France, it is because the people are genuinely being abused by their government and the rich people who run the country, while in the countries you say have less democracy you will often see American political figures running around giving out cookies and stirring up trouble... it is funny that the west does the most to undermine democracy around the world... peaceful protest is a regime change tool the west uses... hire a few snipers to shoot random people in the crowd... get the people fizzing and then sit back and watch the country destroy itself... yah the american dream...

    Why ? It's a free country according to you.

    Because the nobel peace prizes go to useful idiots like oblama...

    In China believing in god send you in camps. Very nice this freedom.

    In Europe not believing in god got the Spanish inquisition... nice freedom that too.

    What will they have ? They will go back and study PESA radars ?

    No, there would be no profit margin there... they will start developing Star Trek Scanners... it will take 500 years and trillions of dollars a year, but they want the funding and a long term income...

    Keep believing US taxes pays everything in US. More biased and you die from hate.

    Not my problem.

    They need to learn to fix their own problems and not expect me to help them.

    The thing is that boeig is selling thousands of planes to the world. Sulhoi 48 su-35 and few ssj100. That like racing against a ferrari with a lada.

    Glad you are not just rehashing old stereotypes... Boeing is a monopoly in the US and has more voting influence than half the US population... no matter who is president... Sukhoi is a company that designs and builds aircraft.

    And because they were taking to much space. In the smartphone, Apple and samsung (US android) were the two huge leaders and then came Huawei which in few years became a huge seller. US don't like competition.

    And that is what it comes down to. The US doesn't like competition. And europe has hitched its wagon to that. I am glad the US and europe are pushing Russia and China away.

    They are at the top and no one can compete against them.

    They are head and shoulders above everyone else because they are sitting on a pile of debt... they see Russia gathering speed and they see China and India growing too and they panic... Russia is their biggest military threat, and China is their biggest economic threat, but India is a huge market they want to use against China. They will also try to use Russia against China too but it is too late.

    And even when China will become too strong economically, they will face US EU and japan because rich countries will always choose US rather than China or russia.

    As China becomes economically stronger it will have 1.5 billion potential customers for european and japanese goods... and the US will have a 30 trillion dollar debt and with the US dollar becoming less and less the international currency less and less means to pay their debts.


    Trump is getting back all the money they may have lost. Chinese can't compete on the sanctions they impose to them.

    What!

    I am no economist, but Trumps tariffs means Americans pay more for Chinese goods... it is Americans paying more for stuff they were buying before... it means poorer Americans, or products from other poor countries replace Chinese goods... but it will take time for Apple and Nike to move production from China to Bangledesh...

    EU is their puppet. Russia is not a competitor in anything

    Russia used to import its food from the EU, now it is exporting food to China to replace food they used to buy from the US... things don't remain the same... this is not the 1990s.

    Japan is their puppet and the world has no will to move from dollar to another currency, even russia and China used dollars in their billateral ties rather than theur own currencies.

    Used is past tense... now Russia accepts payments in Euros and other currencies too.

    The US is stuffed choc-a-blok full of empty-head exceptionalists who can't adjust to the changing world

    The US needs a Putin to say, screw it... why do we police the world. Lets close all our foreign military bases and end all the wars we are involved with and focus on problems in America... fix the roads and bridges... build some monorails that actually work... some high speed trains... lets work out how to deal with plastic waste and make it reusable... lets go to mars... lets make our living standards the envy of the world again.... that is the living standards of everyone in the US, not just the ultra rich.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:24 am

    Microsoft develops software, and pretty shitty software at that. Right now all European governments use Microsoft because of course in a democracy they have developed a monopoly and are dictating to western countries because those western countries no longer have any options... which is why the US is so easily able to spy and therefore also manipulate most of Europe.

    Having the monopoly in its field is what every company would love to.

    Huawei are already in talks with Russian and Chinese companies regarding alternatives in OS and apps.

    Who's going to use it ? All the connected people use android and iOS, Chinese and russians use their smartphones for practically everything possible. They want to stay connected to the world. They will just switch to other smartphones runing on android or iOS.

    And that has made the US so rich..., well in a lot of debt, but the infrastructure and quality of life is amazing... well a few people are doing very very well.

    Yeah China and Russia have no deibt and all their people live in luxury houses with chinese made beautifull 300k$ car outside, they eat luxury meals and fart fragrances ...

    Get real a little bit.

    It is only enough if they make 3,000 F-35s and they aren't going to.

    I really hope they do because the economic albatross of 3,000 F-35s will destroy their economy.

    All that money was used by US companies and is stilll there.

    Germany attacking the Soviet Union sounded like something the British would come up with to try to provoke the Soviets into manouvering aggressively and make the Germans want to attack them...

    Yeah British are responsible for everything and russians are perfect.

    They haven't blow 1.5 trillion dollars on an F-35... and however many other trillions on F-117s, and B-2s, and F-22s, and all those shit drones Iran had no problem capturing.

    No they haven't but the money they used was too much because they desperatly needed another country to invest and now they desperatly need someone to buy it.

    US are sure that the f35 will be bought. First because they will buy it as China and russia became threats again and because other countries will have to.

    But the thing is that those investments stay in their respective coutries. Those 1.5 trillion are going around in USA (they were used to pay US worker , engineers, smaller subcontractors...) and with the taxes they come back in US hands soon.

    India just bought 36 Rafales for about 8 billion dollars..., so if we divide 8 billion by 36, and then times that by 126, we get about 28 billion dollars for their MRCA winners that were supposed to cost 10 billion. I wonder why they wont continue in that direction.

    That's not only for the rafales. The contract includes equipment for airfields, weapons, training and probably other stuff like some sort of guarenties.

    MMRCA was suppose to have offsets so half of those 28 billion should have been invested in indian civilian projects.

    Russians sign for only jets and then for the rest.

    Aw... are you really that stupid... that is like saying Boris Johnson is the democratically elected leader of Britain... the people didn't vote for him... his party colleagues voted him in... there was nothing democratic about rich white men voting for an idiot. Just like the DNC voting for Hillary to be the opposition candidate against Trump... in fact it is even worse because most Venezuelans didn't even know who Guano was before the US claimed he should be king.

    When its good for you opinion, democracy is good but when not it's total shit used by west to destroy a country.

    Maduro destroyed the country. He can't even pay russian companies.

    No need for your "its like saying...". If you have to prove something stay on the subject which is here the opposition elected at the assembly while Maduro failed.


    Of course, but the experience for the crew of the Kuznetsov to gather intel and plan and execute missions was valuable experience.

    The only experience they gained there is that they need to check arresting wires too.


    I would have to shout... you do understand what stand off weapons are don't you?

    And S-400 missiles stop at the border ? Stand off weapon are an acceptable weapon when it comes to killing your allies ?

    I remeber when Syrians used they bm-30 to attack from stand off israeli on the golan, they got an answer 5 minutes after.

    No, you are the one saying Russia doesn't know how to make AESA radars and is 20 years behind, and then when proven wrong that they don't know how to make airborne AESA radars...

    No I said they talk for 20 years how stealth and aesa are shit because US uses them and they end up using it. I so said they never had an airborne aesa of any sort anf their first one will fly 20 years after US one.

    That's not an opinion that's a fact.

    The thing is that you and other russian fanbois here are so anti-US that anyone who is a objective about their equipment becomes a colonialist and supremacist white man who praises every move of the US.

    How ironic you say that... most would suggest that taking risks and making choices is part of leading... that is why they call it the (b)leading edge.

    Most are stupid and talk a lot. Western companies are on the top and they will never help chinese or russians to go near them anyday soon.


    Of course the amusing thing is that when there is a protest in France, it is because the people are genuinely being abused by their government and the rich people who run the country, while in the countries you say have less democracy you will often see American political figures running around giving out cookies and stirring up trouble...

    Yeah those people in those countries run by dicatators go in the streets because they love their situation. They praise their wonderfull dicatators. Those who maight think their situation is bad are US spies.

    Your argumentation is rather pathetic.

    US may use them but when they go in the streets its because they can't support those assholes runing their countries.

    In Europe not believing in god got the Spanish inquisition... nice freedom that too.

    And look how far you go to find a similar exemple for the west.

    Next time don't answer.

    Used is past tense... now Russia accepts payments in Euros and other currencies too.

    Using euro gives EU another tool to sanctiothem badly just like US are doing with the dollar.the other currency are not stable. Cthe other currency starting with russian ruble are not stable, multi billion contract can became multi million one in few days.





    Anyway I stop this conversation here. I'm fed up.

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