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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

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    kumbor

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    Post  kumbor Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:02 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's better than nothing, esp. when several European & Asian navies have carriers & r building more, aside from the 11 CVNs in the USN. Even if it'll spend most of its remaining life in port, at least they can maintain skills needed to repair, refit & modernize a carrier.

    Do they even need a carier? Especially one in this state? And what for?

    It spends most of it's time doing nothing useful, it does not contribute to defense of Russia and (as Syria has shown) it can't even retrieve aircraft which is supposed to be it's core feature.

    It's like having missile ship that can't launch missiles.

    And let's not go int amount of money that is spent on it without gaining anything out of it.

    They also have 1600 crewmen and 620 air group staff tied to it 24/7 who don't contribute to defense needs. And they all cost money.

    That's enough people to fully man 8 frigates and quite a few air squadrons. All of which would actually contribute to nation's defense.


    Tsavo Lion wrote:Would u throw out a nice fur coat after moving to Hawaii? Most people won't, as it may be useful in their future travels.

    If it costs me 2 months worth of income per year then definitely. Especially if I have no intent of traveling anywhere cold in foreseeable future and if standard jacket (LHD) can get the job done anyway.

    @Papa Dragon
    "Do they even need a carrier? Especially one in this state"!
    OMG! You haven`t heard by any chance that for half a year already Kuznetsov is in refit and modernisation comprising full replacement of boilers and refurbishment of turbines where necessary, replacement of almost all wiring and electronics. Hull is constructively in good condition, as it have been built with great margin of toughness.
    Nobody mentally sane would scrap such a ship. Of course it would be better to have new carriers, as Russia is committed to have blue water navy apart from coastal forces, but at this moment it is impossible. there are much more other priorities, as Russian navy was in bad shape until recently.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:39 am

    Can't Russia just build a new improved drydock?
    Sure, with time & planning and as long as you don't have more important things to put the time & effort into.
    This is an unplanned emergency though & if China can pump out a replacement in 1yr for only $40mil why waste time/limited resource developing the capability only to have it wither again from lack of demand?
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 am

    Far East:

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 6 006010

    Until now PD-50 worked perfectly. No need for replacement. But it should be no problem to order another one of these.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:52 pm

    Thats new Chinese built one for Zvezda right? Its too small to replace PD-50, 40Kton.

    Happier times (?) K in PD-50 back in 2010
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 6 31-6821701-4849031
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 6 31-6821701-4849144
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:07 pm

    So what I'm getting out of this incident is:
    - the floating dock started to sink and a crane fell on Kuznetsov, causing some damage
    - Kuznetsov is already in another dock undergoing repairs and maintenance
    - New floating dock needed or old one repaired?
    - some people posting garbage sources like thedrive (lol typical anti Russian sources) and going overboard on the issue.
    - In end, ship is still under repair/maintenance/upgrade and that the damages may or may not cause delay in overall work.

    It sure sounds like the "sky is falling, but nothing happens" kind of ordeal.

    BTW, Zvezda shipyard I believe is able to already hold such sized ships.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:19 pm

    ..why waste time/limited resource developing the capability only to have it wither again from lack of demand?
    It won't be idle as there will be other ships & subs to repair, refit & upgrade.
    Kuznetsov is already in another dock undergoing repairs and maintenance
    Nope, there's no other dock of this size anywhere close, unless Adm. Nachimov is moved & that dock's entrance enlarged. Adm. K is now moored pier side.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:02 pm

    They say it's docked. Tass says so which is official. You aren't. And it isn't pear, but pier.

    But maybe you are right. They then should tug it to far east to Star plant. Fly in experts and what not, and have it done there.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:54 pm

    FYI, "docked" may mean "moored or tied up at". Pl. see my earlier post about towing it to the FE.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:38 am

    It won't be idle as there will be other ships & subs to repair, refit & upgrade.
    Capability to make new floating docks would become idle.

    To be fair there are probably a bunch of other old floating docks in need of replacement so arguably it could be useful as part of a longer shipyard replacement/modernisation programme.

    On the other hand buying off China offers not only a cheap & quick solution but will help the strategic Russia/China relationship.


    Another older pic of K in PD-50
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 6 01-6824237-22-3899860-kuznetsov2

    BTW apparently the head mechanic of the dock is still Missing, presumably went down with the dock.
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    slasher

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    Post  slasher Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:50 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Nope, there's no other dock of this size anywhere close, unless Adm. Nachimov is moved & that dock's entrance enlarged. Adm. K is now moored pier side.

    I read there's another floating dock, PD-1 of "approximately similar size" located in Severodvinsk. (reported by Tass and google searched)
    Haven't got much more info though.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:50 am

    That's an old captured German dock from WWII. There is also dock 82 but it may not be suitable or it would've been mentioned already: https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/novaya_veha_82_srz_rakurs_buduschego.html
    Source: the rise of a floating dock in Murmansk will take at least six months


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:31 pm

    Interesting, there is actually a new shipyard being built directly opposite where PD-50 is, with 2* drydocks easily big enough for K expected to be completed in 2020.
    But its going to be making LNG production modules.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 6 Novatek-kolayard-neftegaz
    Perhaps the replacement plan for PD-50 was to start using that once its order book eases off?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:43 pm

    Pl. include sources for every piece of news. IMO, if there's urgency to refit warships, they'll be given a priority over commercial shipbuilding.
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    Post  Hole Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:07 pm

    If the yard is private, it is money that matters. If the Navy pays, the ship will be repaired.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:30 pm

    They can put all kinds of pressure on them using carrot & stick tactic in the negotiation of contracts. Moscow can prevent them from getting future contracts should they not agree. Every1 there understands that w/o a strong fleet there's no strong defense & no respect & consideration from others, like it was in the 1990s.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:29 am

    I'm talking about the facility at Belokamenka for Novatek
    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/industry-and-energy/2018/01/we-are-making-murmansk-world-leader-oil-and-gas-says-novatek-0
    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/industry-and-energy/2017/06/four-artificial-islands-will-be-built-kola-bay
    They started building last year, expected completion in 2020.

    Pretty sure Oil/Gas gets priority over Navy but the location would make it handy for Navy work once the Oil/Gas stuff tapers off.
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    Post  hoom Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:25 am

    Pics of K https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3403576.html
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 6 6110858_original
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:20 am

    Didn´t someone on this forum say that Kuznetsov needs a bigger crane? Very Happy
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:31 pm

    This story must be partial.

    If the blackout caused the dock to sink then it has holes on it.
    Means thy had to run the pumps 24/7 to keep it float.

    So, as soon as there was no electricity the dock started to tilt, so they choose to sunk it, causing same damage to the Kuz rather than to capsize the carrier.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:40 pm

    Risks lifting the dock; it may not be feasible: https://news.rambler.ru/army/41197213-plavdok-admirala-kuznetsova-okazalsya-nepodemnym/?readmore

    After the refit, they better transfer her to the Black Sea, so winter storm related damage to power supply won't happen again. Bigger docks can be built/brought  there, the local weather is better for training, added firepower won't hurt, & the Med. Sea & the Indian Ocean r much closer.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    marat

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    Post  marat Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Risks lifting the dock; it may not be feasible: https://news.rambler.ru/army/41197213-plavdok-admirala-kuznetsova-okazalsya-nepodemnym/?readmore

    After the refit, they better transfer her to the Black Sea, so winter storm related damage to power supply won't happen again. Bigger docks can be built/brought  there, the local weather is better for training, added firepower won't hurt, & the Med. Sea & the Indian Ocean r much closer.

    And in Black Sea you will use dock for what?

    You do not expect Carrier and SSBN to pass Bosporus and Dardanelles don't you?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:13 pm

    It's a TAKR, not CV, & we already discussed the issue on this & other threads. Also, a big dock can be used by several ships & subs.
    SSBNs can be sent there w/o BMs, if need be.
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    Post  hoom Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:07 am

    If the blackout caused the dock to sink then it has holes on it.
    Means thy had to run the pumps 24/7 to keep it float.

    So, as soon as there was no electricity the dock started to tilt, so they choose to sunk it, causing same damage to the Kuz rather than to capsize the carrier.
    I think the official line is they were in process of taking K out of dock & the power loss caused them to lose control/couldn't manually stabilise in time.

    Haven't seen any evidence yet to support the claim of K suffering flooding (which would disprove the official line), the first couple of pics possibly show a starboard list but could be a perspective illusion, the crane pics it looks even keel.


    After the refit, they better transfer her to the Black Sea, so winter storm related damage to power supply won't happen again.
    No they just need to maintain the onboard generators of floating docks so that there is a functional backup to cheaper shore power.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:40 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's a TAKR, not CV, & we already discussed the issue on this & other threads. Also, a big dock can be used by several ships & subs.
    SSBNs can be sent there w/o BMs, if need be.

    Once it enters Black Sea it's not leaving ever (if it could get there in the first place)



    Hole wrote:Didn´t someone on this forum say that Kuznetsov needs a bigger crane? Very Happy

    She's got one now, it's positively gargantuan! lol1
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:34 am

    Means thy had to run the pumps 24/7 to keep it float.
    Is that's how it was supposed to be? Why couldn't they trim with ballast & close the filling/drain holes? Also, it's not safe to pull a ship out at night, so it was an emergency. Yes, some compartments were flooded as it wasn't sealed for boiler work & the crew saved her.

    A Huge Floating Drydock Sank and Nearly took Russia’s Only Aircraft Carrier with It

    https://sputniknews.com/russia/201811041069500916-admiral-kuznetsov-photos/
    https://www.janes.com/article/84216/russia-s-sole-aircraft-carrier-damaged-by-sinking-of-floating-dock
    https://jamestown.org/program/russian-navy-suffers-another-blow-as-aircraft-carrier-is-damaged-while-undergoing-repairs/

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