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    Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:03 pm

    There was a version of the K-10 missile with a jammer instead of a warhead, to mak bombers and launches of real missiles. That was in the 70´s with electronics that had the size/weight of a car. Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:41 am

    The newer missiles like Iskander and upgraded Granit would include chaff dispensors and decoys as well as EW receivers to detect enemy radar to avoid.

    Can only imagine what they have on the Zircon.
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    Post  RTN Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:04 am

    GarryB wrote:The newer missiles like Iskander and upgraded Granit would include chaff dispensors and decoys as well as EW receivers to detect enemy radar to avoid.
    Can still be jammed by just blasting bad data on the right frequencies.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:11 pm

    Saturnax
    @Saturnax1
    ·
    22 Dec
    #News #Submarines #SubWednesday #RussianNavy #ВМФ Project 949A Antey/Oscar II class SSGN Chelyabinsk (K-442) to be modernized to Project 949AM standard (Granit missiles replaced with Oniks & Zirkon). Modernization is scheduled to begin in 2022. Source: http://topwar.ru

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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:35 am

    Can still be jammed by just blasting bad data on the right frequencies.

    But can they though?

    The US Navy spend a small fortune developing the F-14 and Phoenix combination when all they needed was jammers built in to their ships to stop the missiles hitting them?

    Would need to be a very impressive jammer to blind such a missile and would need a lot of power which would make it a useful target to attack on its own.

    I suspect the USN is not convinced either... especially considering they can never be sure of which frequencies they will or wont be using.

    Modern radars can jump around a range of different frequencies... do you jam all of them at once... that would require an enormous amount of power... but not only that... it would jam your own radar and your own radio communications channels too...

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    Post  lyle6 Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:00 am

    RTN wrote:
    Can still be jammed by just blasting bad data on the right frequencies.
    Should work on the singular missile - runs into trouble when dealing with salvoes of networked missiles which have much higher powers of discrimination at their disposal.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:40 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Can still be jammed by just blasting bad data on the right frequencies.

    Of course , only problem is it needs to know what is bad data.

    Like all RSA could be compromised ,all that it needs to find the private key. Easy , isn't it ? If the attacker lucky, then the first key will be that, and they doesn't need to spend few hunded trillion years to find it .


    Easy to design and test kinetic countermeasures, but hard to design and test active, clever countermeasures. As a starter , those needs real enemy missiles for testing .
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Dec 25, 2021 7:45 pm

    Is any of you going to tell the Murican troll, that Russkies introduced a combined homing on the ASMs in the late 60s?
    And that is 60 years ago?
    With the introduction of P-120?
    And later on, it just became more and more redundant, with 3M80 introducing combined active/passive homing?
    If incapable of finding a target, home on the jammer.
    Geee, what a technology, it must have been stolen from the "mighty Harpoon" Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 21 Empty Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  LMFS Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:37 pm

    Source: 949AM submarines will carry the most cruise missiles in the Navy

    MOSCOW, January 11-RIA Novosti. The upgraded submarines of Project 949AM will become the most armed Russian cruise missile submarines and will be able to carry up to 72 Kalibrovs on board."Onyx" or "Zircons", a source in the shipbuilding industry told RIA Novosti.

    "The Antey submarines upgraded under the 949AM project will be able to carry up to 72 Kalibr, Onyx or Zircon cruise missiles. And in fact, they will become the most armed cruise missile submarines in the Russian Navy, " the source said.
    He added that the total ammunition capacity of one 949AM submarine will be about 100 units of missile, torpedo and missile-torpedo weapons.
    "One incomplete missile salvo from such a submarine will be enough to guarantee the destruction of an aircraft carrier multi — purpose group," the source added.
    Currently, the Far Eastern Zvezda Shipyard (DVZ) is working on the repair and modernization of the nuclear submarine of Project 949A (code "Antey") "Irkutsk". The submarine is being upgraded according to the 949AM project. As a source told RIA Novosti earlier, the next nuclear-powered submarine to be re-equipped under the 949AM project will be the 949A Chelyabinsk nuclear-powered cruiser.

    In 2019, when visiting the Far Eastern Military District, the Deputy Minister of DefenseAlexey Krivoruchko said that the nuclear-powered submarine missile cruiser Irkutsk after modernization will be able to use hypersonic missiles Zircon.
    The 949A Antey submarines were developed at the Rubin Central Marine Engineering Design Bureau. In 1985-1996, 11 submarines of this class were built. The submarines have an underwater displacement of about 24 thousand tons, their maximum length is 155 meters. The main armament of the 949A — 24 project boats is the Granit supersonic anti-ship missiles.

    https://ria.ru/20220111/podlodki-1767257506.html

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:08 am


    72 missiles, that would be 3 per Granit tube after all

    If true it will be epic

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:00 am

    I do like this translation!  Laughing
    "One incomplete missile salvo from such a submarine will be enough to guarantee the destruction of an aircraft carrier multi — purpose group,"

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:35 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    72 missiles, that would be 3 per Granit tube after all

    If true it will be epic


    Few year ago they said they will fit only 2 missiles per granit tube and it was also a source from the military industry.

    I would wait to see the real plans.

    Udaloys were also showed with angled UKSK and they just put some kh-35 instead.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:19 am

    But they did show a mockup with three tube sleeves in a Granit tube.

    The issue is that they can make the tubes to fit Kalibre... which are 533mm calibre, or they can make them so the Onyx/Zircon fit which is presumably 750mm... the normal tube calibre of the UKSK launchers... but the Granit tubes are enormous over 1 metre wide because Granits were huge.

    Just based on the maths of fitting circles in circles I would think if you can fit two smaller circles inside one big one that fitting three might work too...

    Obviously it makes more sense to have fewer tubes if the choice is 533mm calibre weapons only to get three tubes in there... because having 72 subsonic anti ship missiles would not be as useful as 48 hypersonic ones.

    But this seems to suggest they are fitting three to a tube... plus weapons in the torpedo room of course.
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    Post  Mir Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:02 pm

    My guess would be that they removed all the Granit launchers - esp if the "up to 72" figure is correct.
    Don't know how correct it is but the diameter of the Granit is said to be 0.85m.
    At 0.7m you won't get to many Oniks in there not to mention Tsirkons.
    A new design would make better use of the available space.

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 21 Granit11

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:26 pm


    Granit tubes will not be removed, there's plenty of space inside to fit 3 Onyx once all that redundant Granit equipment is removed from them

    And they will be using adapters

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    Post  Mir Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:48 pm

    If the design makes it possible to remove the inner ring then its very likely yes.
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    Post  Hole Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:08 pm

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 21 000543
    P-700 with booster

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 21 000195
    The famous pic

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Granit tubes will not be removed, there's plenty of space inside to fit 3 Onyx once all that redundant Granit equipment is removed from them

    And they will be using adapters


    And how, in detail, you come up to that conclusion? dunno
    An existing P-700 tube is much more than a ribbed pipe of dedicated diameter.
    It is a whole system of plugs, connectors, shafts&trays to connect the missile to the whole sub weaponry check&maintenence system and secure a safe&confident launch procedure.
    You don't remove the missile from a launcher to check if its batteries are running. You don't do that to upload the attack parameters, flight path etc.
    Only really complex maintenance procedures require removing the missile from a tube, and that is a kind of standard - for much less complicated SAM systems, you don't touch them while in a container for ... 10 years. Just connect the plug, and run a program.
    All of those are not needed for a new missile, that is just ... different. Has a slots positioned different, "speaking" a different language, and using even different bloody connectors and plugs, as 40 years are between. Tried to connect a centronics cable to anything, lately Wink ?
    Of course those would be either removed&replaced with the new ones, or really heavily modified to get all the needed cabling, connectors, plugs etc.
    The only thing that is important here, is how much space there is between the hulls, but there is LOTS of space.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:05 pm


    I came to that conclusion by listening to Russian Navy saying they would do it that way
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    Post  Singular_Transform Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:19 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Tried to connect a centronics cable to anything, lately  Wink ?


    Yes. Works perfectly on my i7 win 10 laptop, could print anything(text) from command line. Serial mouse the same.
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    Post  Mir Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:12 am

    Hole wrote:
    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 21 000195
    The famous pic

    Obviously a much "scaled downed" version but I must say it does not look remotely in scale with the actual Granit launchers unless it is a "cut down" version?

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 21 Kursk-18

    If they can cut that inner ring (tube) at the top and be able to pull it from the outer tube then I would say it would be worth the time and effort but otherwise I would just build new ones.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:43 am

    Don't know how correct it is but the diameter of the Granit is said to be 0.85m.

    No, she is girthier than any Onyx/Yakhont...

    A new design would make better use of the available space.

    That photo you posted shows two side rails it launches from.

    An existing P-700 tube is much more than a ribbed pipe of dedicated diameter.
    It is a whole system of plugs, connectors, shafts&trays to connect the missile to the whole sub weaponry check&maintenence system and secure a safe&confident launch procedure.
    You don't remove the missile from a launcher to check if its batteries are running. You don't do that to upload the attack parameters, flight path etc.
    Only really complex maintenance procedures require removing the missile from a tube, and that is a kind of standard - for much less complicated SAM systems, you don't touch them while in a container for ... 10 years. Just connect the plug, and run a program.

    It is complex and difficult, but the new missiles were all designed with UKSK launch tubes in mind when they were developed and the tubes are much slimmer.

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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:42 pm

    Yasen has 32 oniks and is far smaller.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    It is complex and difficult, but the new missiles were all designed with UKSK launch tubes in mind when they were developed and the tubes are much slimmer.


    The general rule for the shipbuilding business is that a repair is always more expensive than building new Laughing
    If I would bet on that, the tubes will be either replaced with new ones or ripped off everything inside to make it a clear steel pipe.
    That will be a very interesting job from any perspective.
    The space there is so huge, that from the technical point of view, they can simply remove the angled tubes for good, and put a standard USKS there instead.

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    Post  Krepost Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:50 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 21 000195
    The famous pic

    This picture is as old as my grandmother.

    There is no evidence that this sort of system is being used to modernize the OSCARs.
    We also don't know yet if the Zircon tubes will be inclined. They could vertical just like on Yasens and Gorshkovs.

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