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    Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:14 pm

    The launchers will most probably have to be slanted simply because the Tsirkons are said to be between one and two meters longer than the Granits. The Oniks as well as the tallest Kalibrs are nearly nine meters long as well.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:28 pm

    Mir wrote:The launchers will most probably have to be slanted simply because the Tsirkons are said to be between one and two meters longer than the Granits. The Oniks as well as the tallest Kalibrs are nearly nine meters long as well.

    What are you talking about?

    Zircon is UKSK compatible AKA same size or smaller than Onyx

    It is launched from Gorshkovs
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    Post  Mir Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:47 pm

    Same width but the length apparently varies. Tsirkon is reportedly longer but I haven't had the chance to tape measure it yet. Laughing

    Edit: Kalibr diameter seems smaller though?
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    Post  Mir Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:54 pm

    Here you go found it!

    So yes Kalibr is smaller in diameter.

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 22 Vluksk10
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:01 pm

    Kalibr is 533mm, it can be launched by kilo sub which uses only 533mm torpedoes. Oniks is 650-700mm.

    Kalibr has its wings inside of the body contrary to the others who take even more space in the launchers.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:07 am

    The general rule for the shipbuilding business is that a repair is always more expensive than building new

    Very true...

    We also don't know yet if the Zircon tubes will be inclined. They could vertical just like on Yasens and Gorshkovs.

    The original Granit tubes are inclined so if the new tubes are fitted inside then they will be inclined too.

    The launchers will most probably have to be slanted simply because the Tsirkons are said to be between one and two meters longer than the Granits. The Oniks as well as the tallest Kalibrs are nearly nine meters long as well.

    Granit is 10 metres long which is longer than the UKSK launcher could fit because it is 10m deep so missiles that fit into it need to be shorter than that, so Zircon will be shorter than that.

    If they load the liners and therefore the new missiles inside the existing Granit tubes then they will be angled too.

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    Post  Mir Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:38 am

    UKSK launcher could fit because it is 10m deep

    It may be that these containers for the missiles could be of open ended architecture so that longer tubes could be suspended?

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 22 Nakhim10
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:21 am

    GarryB wrote:

    If they load the liners and therefore the new missiles inside the existing Granit tubes then they will be angled too.


    What makes me uncertain here, is the fact that even if they have tested the angeled Oniks on some corvette, they don't run any serious upgrade program for the existing fleet.
    Lots of MRKs would be suitable for refitting and could be useful for many years - in the opposite when retaining the P-120 they carry.
    The answer to that is that they either expect massive deliveries of fresh new missile corvettes in required numbers, so no point in wasting time to modify 1241 that proved to be very reliable, but still coming into their 40s, or the angeled USKS/missile container is not such a great idea as we might think.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:20 am

    It may be that these containers for the missiles could be of open ended architecture so that longer tubes could be suspended?

    That is definitely a possibility, though rather than "extending" the UKSK launcher itself, they have been working on what has been called UKSK-M and if that is the case then there are obviously some issues with the current UKSK launcher that they want to address... which might include tube width and tube length, as well as potentially being able to be loaded on an angle, and other features we might not be aware of.

    What makes me uncertain here, is the fact that even if they have tested the angeled Oniks on some corvette, they don't run any serious upgrade program for the existing fleet.
    Lots of MRKs would be suitable for refitting and could be useful for many years - in the opposite when retaining the P-120 they carry.
    The answer to that is that they either expect massive deliveries of fresh new missile corvettes in required numbers, so no point in wasting time to modify 1241 that proved to be very reliable, but still coming into their 40s, or the angeled USKS/missile container is not such a great idea as we might think.

    I suspect as good as previous missile craft might have been all the improvements in electronics and systems probably means a new ship will be rather better and shouldn't be too hard to mass produce in numbers by several yards once they have decided on the final specs and configuration.

    Certainly minor upgrades could be made and gifted to allies where the boats are too good to scrap, but I suspect they might also want to export new small boats too...

    New boats will accommodate new systems and equipment like UAVs and surface and subsurface drones that were never even considered on older vessels, and of course new radar and sonar arrays and new electronics will have moved on considerably in the last 40 years... not to mention the new boats will be mostly if not all Russian components which will replace a lot of imported stuff too... which is better for the Russian economy.
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:52 am

    That is the point.
    I consider it from the Polish perspective, where 1241s proved to be extremely long life&reliable.
    Still, removed from service rather than converted for NSM.
    As ours carried the P-21/22 system, can't compare them to the ones the Soviets had, still it was an extremely capable ship.
    What is less common, it the fact that those ships could operate up to 8th Beaufort, which is really amazing considering it's size. It was an ideal hulk for rough seas, like Baltic, Ochotsk etc. Combining with 45 knots max speed, represented a Porsche of naval warfare back in the 80s...

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:59 pm

    TASS; Apr 28, 02:03


    The upgraded nuclear submarine "Irkutsk" is planned to be returned to the Russian Navy in 2023

    According to a TASS source, instead of 24 Granit anti-ship missiles, the nuclear submarine will be able to carry 48 new Caliber-PL, Onyx and Zircon cruise missiles.


    MOSCOW, 28 April. /TASS/. The nuclear submarine (NPS) "Irkutsk" of project 949A "Antey" of the Pacific Fleet (Pacific Fleet) may return to the combat structure of the Navy of the Russian Federation in 2023. This was reported to TASS by a source in the shipbuilding industry. "According to existing plans, the nuclear submarine Irkutsk will return to the combat strength of the Russian Navy in 2023," he specified.

    According to him, in the course of modernization, Irkutsk will become not just a Project 949AM submarine (a modernized Project 949A - TASS note). Instead of 24 Granit anti-ship missiles, the submarine will be able to carry 48 fundamentally new Caliber-PL, Onyx and Zircon cruise missiles. "That is, the submarine will also be able to strike at coastal targets. The presence of a specific range of missiles on board the nuclear submarine will depend on the tasks assigned to it," he added.

    TASS does not have official confirmation of this information.

    It was previously expected that the Irkutsk nuclear submarine would return to the combat strength of the submarine forces of the Pacific Fleet, first in 2017, then in 2019, and then in 2022.

    The Irkutsk nuclear submarine (originally K-132) was laid down at the Sevmash shipyard (now part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) on May 8, 1985. Launched on December 29, 1987, handed over to the fleet on December 30, 1988. In 1990, she made an inter-naval transition to the Pacific Fleet. In 1993 it became known as "Irkutsk". Has been in reserve since 1997. In 2001, she arrived at the Far East Zvezda plant for repairs. Repairs and upgrades began in 2019. The main strike weapons of the Project 949A nuclear submarine were 24 Granit anti-ship missiles.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14500837

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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:24 pm

    There was space for more but 48 is still decent, even more if they only carry Tzirkon.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:36 pm

    Isos wrote:There was space for more but 48 is still decent, even more if they only carry Tzirkon.

    That's right. And I think that's enough, especially if that submarine carries at least half of the 3M22 missiles. It is possible that there will be only two rockets for each container (24 x 2). It is more cost-effective to build additional 885M submarines than to invest in the modernization of these submarines. Maybe "Chelyabinsk" and the youngest of all "Tomsk" and that's it.
    Or even better, that is, to build a scaled-down submarine of the 955A project, which would be an "underwater truck" loaded with cruise and hypersonic missiles.

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    Post  lancelot Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:34 am

    Even if there was space for more missiles, wouldn't there have been weight issues?

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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:32 pm

    If you look at the UKSK design it is actually made up of two large tubes each of which carries four launch tubes for missiles... perhaps instead of going with the original Granit tubes loaded with three missiles in each of the 24 launch tubes, they instead replaced the tubes with UKSK tubes on an angle...

    Here is the UKSK launch system with the two large tubes revealed:

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 22 355010

    And here is the Granit tube:

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 22 Granit10

    And another view showing single missile tubes in a single row of 12 missiles on each side of the sub....

    Project 949A: Oscar-II - Page 22 Oscar-10


    So if each of the existing Granit tubes is removed and replaced with one UKSK tube with four missiles inside that would mean 24 tubes in total, 12 on each side, but each tube represents half of one UKSK launcher as the UKSK launcher has two tubes, so effectively they should be fitting the equivalent of 12 UKSK launchers which should be able to carry 12 x 8 = 96 missiles... which is clearly wrong... according to that report they only carry half that, so maybe angling them vertically means they can only fit the equivalent of 3 UKSK launchers on each side, which would have 3 x 8 = 24 missiles per side for a total of 48 missiles in the vertical launch tubes.

    Obviously the Antei class can probably fit another 40 torpedoes or missiles to be fired through its torpedo tubes as well which could carry calibr missiles too but with Zircon it would not really need enormous numbers of missiles to remain effective... and very capable... considering the range and speed increase over the Granits.

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    Post  Isos Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:50 pm

    There is clearly enough space for 4 missiles per tubes just by looking at the man. P-700 has a big body and long wings.

    Kalibr is just like a torpedo of 53cm. You could even fit 5 of them there IMO.

    But weight, hot launch procedures, being submarine... must create issues.

    But again 48 is more than enough. They also have a big torpedo room where they can store more missiles.

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    Post  LMFS Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:30 pm

    Isos wrote:There was space for more but 48 is still decent, even more if they only carry Tzirkon.

    That is what, 3 to 4 CBG worth of stored kills? It would need to eliminate like half of all active USN combat assets across the world before reloading, to put that capability to use Laughing

    Podlodka77 wrote:It is more cost-effective to build additional 885M submarines than to invest in the modernization of these submarines. Maybe "Chelyabinsk" and the youngest of all "Tomsk" and that's it.

    I don't know about the cost, but the problem is that there is only one Sevmash and that is a substantial bottleneck for Russia in order to bring the size of their SSGN fleet to the required level, now that an era of global confrontation is starting and the West seems to be betting everything on their own substantial quantitative superiority in subs. Modernising the existing 949s to carry the Tsirkon is really important, since it can be done at Zvezdochka instead, and if the 971 or even the 636 could launch it (or a downscaled version) from the torpedo tubes, even better...

    BTW, the Irkutsk is the oldest of the whole 949 fleet

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    Post  GarryB Sun May 01, 2022 5:38 am

    Well that is an important factor too, because if they are taking out each Granit tube and replacing it with a Half UKSK launcher (one of the two tubes used in each launcher), then they might fit them vertically instead of on an angle...

    This would have the enormous advantage of allowing a full range of missile types to be carried... it could carry Zircon, but equally it could also carry 5,000km range land attack nuclear armed cruise missiles... but also ballistic rocket based anti sub torpedo carrying missiles so in an enemy sub rich environment it could carry 48 sub killing rockets that would carry anti sub torpedoes to targets 50km away at mach 2.5 which would deliver torpedoes to the vicinity of enemy subs in a couple of minutes that they then will have to evade or defeat... launching jammers and other actions will reveal the presence of enemy subs... you might get lucky and detect one or another platform spots a shape in the water and transmits its location to you so you launch an attack and when your torpedo splashes down you might find several subs are there and all jamming and manouvering or diving down a layer to evade your weapon...

    In comparison launching a long range torpedo will take quite a long time to get there... and all the time making noise on its way, giving the target rather more time to leave the area or set noise decoys.

    Loading UKSK tubes makes sense because it means you are fully standardised and can be loaded from any Russian port or support ship that reloads UKSK launchers and the flexibility of being able to load different weapons is huge.

    Even just loading Zircons means you have a missile of about 1/3rd the weight with more than two times the flight range and almost five times faster probably flying and twice the altitude... even if they carried the same number it would be a serious upgrade.

    Next gen subs can be desiged to better integrate vertical launch systems... of course modern subs can already carry launch tubes of the horizontal type that can't be reloaded from the inside of the sub but carry things like decoys or self defence weapons that intercept incoming weapons that fire forwards and backwards... they could be located between the inner and outer hull of the sub so they don't take up any useful internal space and are always ready to be launched forward or backwards... they could even be designed to be mounted on the keel of the sub underneath pointing to either side of the sub if required... almost like a sub based Drozd APS system...

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    Post  TMA1 Sun May 01, 2022 10:04 am

    Agreed with that kind of capacity it could carry a full compliment of anti sea, land, and undersea weaponry and essentially act as an arsenal boat at need to do whatever is asked of it. Like a universal shock and awe weapon.

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:48 am

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    Post  LMFS Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:48 am

    Fully loaded with Tsirkons and just in time as UKUS gets ready to play pirates as in the good old days... going to be interesting what they will do when confronted with a sub capable of pacifying 7 million square km of sea on its own pirat

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    Post  George1 Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:20 pm

    "Chelyabinsk": active phase

    More than nine years ago (07/05/2013), a state contract No. R / 1/2/0317 / GK-13-DGOZ was concluded for the repair and modernization of two more (in addition to Irkutsk) APKRRK Project 949A at the Zvezda Far East Air Plant ( link 1 ). The first of them - K-442 "Chelyabinsk" - was delivered to the plant on 09/07/2014 on board a Chinese semi-submersible vessel from Vilyuchinsk ( reference 2 ), where it was in reserve for a long time, and moored near the "Irkutsk" at the pier to the south of the slipway. Starting from March 25, 2016, on Google Earth satellite images it can be seen at the embankment in front of the boathouse, which is either bow or stern to it (more often bow). Due to the extremely low pace of work at Irkutsk, fthe modernization of the second ship under the above contract (K-456 "Tver") was decided to be abandoned. Chelyabinsk was threatened with the same fate - at the end of 2020, information was received that one Irkutsk would be modernized under the 949AM project ( link 3 ). However, a year later it became known that the plans for the K-442 remained in force, and the active phase of work would begin in 2022 ( link 4 ). This is confirmed by Google Earth images, according to which Chelyabinsk disappeared from its usual place (was put in a boathouse) between 06/08/2021 and 09/15/2021. It is worth adding that, starting from 09/15/2021 , the former Indian PLAK pr. 971 S71 "Chakra" is not observed in the Zvezda water area (K-152 "Nerpa"), which arrived in Primorye, accompanied by the BOD "Admiral Tributs". Therefore, it is possible that work is currently underway on three boats in the Zvezda boathouse - Chelyabinsk, K-331 (formerly Magadan) and Nerpa.

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/275877.html

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    Post  LMFS Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:59 pm

    Yasens are indeed better, but these ones can be nasty bugs for USN and what VMF needs the most right now is numbers, so I hope they modernize as many of them as possible to AM standard, because a limited number of Tsirkon carriers can be neutralized, but the difficulty for USN to track and counter them will raise non proportionally as the number of carriers is increased.

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