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    Project 949A: Oscar-II

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:25 am

    Another submarine after Irkutsk to be modernized.
    https://ria.ru/20211214/podlodka-1763587951.html

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    Post  George1 Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:14 am

    Arrow wrote:Another submarine after Irkutsk to be modernized.
    https://ria.ru/20211214/podlodka-1763587951.html

    K-442 "Chelyabinsk" will receive hypersonic Zircon missiles.

    https://en.topwar.ru/190161-ozhidajuschij-na-dalnevostochnoj-zvezde-modernizacii-antej-poluchit-na-vooruzhenie-giperzvukovye-rakety-cirkon.html

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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:46 pm

    I suspect at least half of them will be upgraded if not all. That would be a huge step up in kalibr launcher numbers for their navy.
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    Post  Arrow Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:02 pm

    The firepower of the upgraded 949AM will be amazing. Approximately 70 tubes in the Kalibr / Onyx / Cirkon combination.
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    Post  Krepost Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:13 pm

    Only Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk will be upgraded to 949AM level.
    It is unlikely that the others will be.
    These are boats built during the eighties and early nineties.
    They are already 30 years old on average.
    Upgrades and modernization will add another 10-15 years to their life. At best 20 years.
    The Orel and Tomsk have already been modernized (2017 and 2019 respectively), but no Onyx/Kalibr/Zircon.
    The rest will be retired by the end of the decade.
    So, by 2030 we will have 4 project 949 vessels still in service:
    - 2 x 949A (Orel andTomsk) with Granit missiles
    - 2 x 949AM (Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk) with Kalibr/Onyx/Zircon missiles

    Yasens will be the core of the VMF's SSGN fleet at that time with 10-12 already in service and more building.

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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:27 pm

    Akula are older and yet being upgraded. Their SSN number is low they will have to keep the Oscars.

    Yasen has a dual role SSN/SSGN.
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    Post  Mir Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:29 pm

    Only Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk will be upgraded to 949AM level.
    It is unlikely that the others will be.
    These are boats built during the eighties and early nineties.
    They are already 30 years old on average.
    Upgrades and modernization will add another 10-15 years to their life. At best 20 years.

    The Irkutsk is the oldest surviving boat and the Chelyabinsk is not much younger as well. I know it has been said that not all would be upgraded, but then it would have made more sense to just upgrade the newest boats? I think in the end they will modernize most of these boats.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:47 pm

    Well, if you hear the voices coming from the MIC, they are kind of determined to modernize anything that has some potential left.
    Ironically, the fact that those boats survived the 90-00s could mean that they have a lot of life ahead.
    I personally see little sense behind modernizing just 2 boats in a line, if you have more of them on hand if those are technically capable of further service.
    All the program cost depreciates in a lower hull number means the unitary cost gets higher.
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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:52 pm

    It would be nnice to sea how muchvthey operated them. Yeltsin era was so bad that most spent their time docked.

    Until 2010 Russia wasn't that much present on the international scene. I guess they only started using them in 2011. So with an upgrade they can be considered as new boats.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:13 pm

    George1 wrote:.......K-442 "Chelyabinsk" will receive hypersonic Zircon missiles.

    https://en.topwar.ru/190161-ozhidajuschij-na-dalnevostochnoj-zvezde-modernizacii-antej-poluchit-na-vooruzhenie-giperzvukovye-rakety-cirkon.html

    I am really curious how many cruise missiles they plan to fit per tube

    Even 2 would be insane upgrade


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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:33 pm

    First they showed 3 per tubes but then said 48 missiles so 2.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:08 am

    Even 48 Cirkons will wipe the whole US strike group out of the surface, leaving smog&fire behind only. 72 pcs would be overkill.
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    Post  Hole Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:52 pm

    You can´t have enough Tsirkon. Wink

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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:42 am

    It would actually be smart to have a mix of missiles, with perhaps a quarter Zircons and a half Onyx and perhaps the remaining quarter something else... anti sub missiles or land attack missiles...

    You could launch the Onyx missiles first and then time the launch of the Zircons so that they arrive over the horizon just before or just after the Onyx missiles so the Zircons will hammer all the target ships with one hit which will weaken their defences and perhaps leave them as sitting ducks for the slower Onyx missiles following up.

    It would mean that a group of ships that might have been able to shoot down some Onyx missiles will more likely get hit by more of them.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:02 am

    Hole wrote:You can´t have enough Tsirkon. Wink

    Indeed Laughing but those do not grow on trees for free Laughing

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:47 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    Hole wrote:You can´t have enough Tsirkon. Wink

    Indeed Laughing but those do not grow on trees for free Laughing

    An Arleigh Burke Flight III costs at least $932M per unit (based on 2020 prices). You can buy an awful lot of Zircons for that... but you only need one to be on target and avoid the inadequate seppo defenses Twisted Evil

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    Post  Hole Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:19 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Hole wrote:You can´t have enough Tsirkon. Wink

    Indeed Laughing but those do not grow on trees for free Laughing

    Next job for the scientists. Design such a tree! Laughing

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    Post  LMFS Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:It would actually be smart to have a mix of missiles, with perhaps a quarter Zircons and a half Onyx and perhaps the remaining quarter something else... anti sub missiles or land attack missiles...

    You could launch the Onyx missiles first and then time the launch of the Zircons so that they arrive over the horizon just before or just after the Onyx missiles so the Zircons will hammer all the target ships with one hit which will weaken their defences and perhaps leave them as sitting ducks for the slower Onyx missiles following up.

    It would mean that a group of ships that might have been able to shoot down some Onyx missiles will more likely get hit by more of them.

    Given the advantages of Tsirkon in both range and speed, for the AShM role they should be far better than the Oniks, cost and production issues aside. But for land attack roles (wink wink), the Kalibr would be a nice addition, because it is longer ranged. First, a Tsirkon salvo eliminates the (scarce) AD assets and time critical targets, a second salvo of 2500 km range Kalibr reaches practically as far inland as needed and carries a very big warhead. If they can take the famous 4500 km range Kalibr M in the same carriers (questionable since it seems way bigger), then even better, it should have not only a huge range but a massive warhead.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:22 am

    Very much agreed, but with new more energetic fuel the Onyx is supposed to fly at mach 5 over a distance of 800km which is pretty damn good anyway... they already have a few of those in service so using them makes sense... not every ship would need a Zircon to destroy it but many ships would likely need a few missiles to assure it is sunk so a Zircon to damage it and take it out of the fight and a couple of slower missiles to finish it off.

    They have subsonic Kalibres designed for anti ship use so 4,500km range to skirt around the carrier group and either pick off their support ships or attack them from a "safe" direction after the Zircons have disabled them and left them as sitting ducks.

    Certainly for the purposes of wiping out any comms centres and air defence systems in HATO it would make sense because there are so few and they are concentrated together.... a Zircon able to engage a flying radar would also be valuable too... passively diving down from 50km altitude at 3km/s... it wont know what hit it...
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    Post  Hole Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:39 pm

    The circling Kaliber-M could be fitted with a jammer instead of a warhead. To jam or fool the radars on the ships from a safe distance.

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    Post  Isos Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:12 pm

    Hole wrote:The circling Kaliber-M could be fitted with a jammer instead of a warhead. To jam or fool the radars on the ships from a safe distance.

    Ship's radar work with some mega watt average power. Your small jammer on a missile will harfly affect them...

    Just send it to attack the ship. The more missiles the more chances to go through.

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    Post  Mir Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:40 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Given the advantages of Tsirkon in both range and speed, for the AShM role they should be far better than the Oniks, cost and production issues aside. But for land attack roles (wink wink), the Kalibr would be a nice addition, because it is longer ranged. First, a Tsirkon salvo eliminates the (scarce) AD assets and time critical targets, a second salvo of 2500 km range Kalibr reaches practically as far inland as needed and carries a very big warhead. If they can take the famous 4500 km range Kalibr M in the same carriers (questionable since it seems way bigger), then even better, it should have not only a huge range but a massive warhead.

    Agree but it is a not a bad option to have a mix of attacking missiles. It not only opens up your options attacking less defended targets with cheaper missiles or making things even more difficult for the defending side. Having Tsirkon, Kalibr [M] and Oniks together would be a formidable package!

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    Post  Hole Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:17 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:The circling Kaliber-M could be fitted with a jammer instead of a warhead. To jam or fool the radars on the ships from a safe distance.

    Ship's radar work with some mega watt average power. Your small jammer on a missile will harfly affect them...

    Just send it to attack the ship. The more missiles the more chances to go through.


    The jammer would have the same size as the one that led to the total breakdown of any system on board of the Burke class destroyer a few years ago.
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    Post  Isos Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:22 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:The circling Kaliber-M could be fitted with a jammer instead of a warhead. To jam or fool the radars on the ships from a safe distance.

    Ship's radar work with some mega watt average power. Your small jammer on a missile will harfly affect them...

    Just send it to attack the ship. The more missiles the more chances to go through.


    The jammer would have the same size as the one that led to the total breakdown of any system on board of the Burke class destroyer a few years ago.

    That's something we don't have proof of. It's just speculation on internet.

    Moreover being powered by two al-31 and being powered by a battery is two different things.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:04 am

    Wouldn't need to be a jammer... it could just be a radar faking the radar returns of a flight of Tu-22M3s approaching at medium height and at subsonic speeds... a suitable distraction.... and when it detects incoming missiles it could drop chaff and descend to just above the wavetops and try to hit a ship too.

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