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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:47 am

    The main problem is the ammo... the PKP weighs about 8.5kgs, while the PKM weighs about 1kg lighter... the difference is the fixed heavier barrel of the PKP.

    The problem arises with the ammo... a 100 round belt in a box weighs about 4kgs and a 200 round box weighs about 8kgs.

    The difference between the PKP and PKM is that with the PKP you only need to carry one barrel.

    In comparison an RPK-74 with a loaded 45 round mag weighs about 5.5kgs but the performance difference means the PKP is worth the weight.

    It certainly appears to be popular with those who have to use it. Smile
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:49 am

    GarryB wrote:The main problem is the ammo... the PKP weighs about 8.5kgs, while the PKM weighs about 1kg lighter... the difference is the fixed heavier barrel of the PKP.

    The problem arises with the ammo... a 100 round belt in a box weighs about 4kgs and a 200 round box weighs about 8kgs.

    The difference between the PKP and PKM is that with the PKP you only need to carry one barrel.

    In comparison an RPK-74 with a loaded 45 round mag weighs about 5.5kgs but the performance difference means the PKP is worth the weight.

    It certainly appears to be popular with those who have to use it. Smile
    I got it mixed up I thought the PKP was lighter when the PKM is actually lighter. They definitely can make make a lighter machine gun than the PKM with lighter ammo that has 7.62x54R performance or better like they intended with the 6x49mm. They can always look into polymer cases if they want to lighten the machine gunners load.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:04 am

    Well at the end of the day they can choose lighter by taking RPK-74s at less than 6kgs loaded, but they clearly feel that the extra weight of the PKP is worth the effort... and I must say that I think the extra weight is worth it.

    Of course I don't have to carry it. Smile
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:01 am

    GarryB wrote:Well at the end of the day they can choose lighter by taking RPK-74s at less than 6kgs loaded, but they clearly feel that the extra weight of the PKP is worth the effort... and I must say that I think the extra weight is worth it.

    Of course I don't have to carry it. Smile
    I think they are almost better off just chopping the barrel down on the RPK-74 to AK length and issuing it as a regular rifle Smile
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:23 am

    Chopping the barrel down to standard AK length and it would be a standard rifle... though slightly heavier because it was more strongly built.

    I think a better alternative would be to convert it to bullpup layout and keep the long barrel but make it shorter and handier. Its longer barrel gives it slightly more reach, and reportedly makes it rather more accurate.

    With newer higher velocity ammo you could probably use it against targets at 400-500m or so, which is about double the range of the FN Minimi but less than half the range of the PKP.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:48 am

    GarryB wrote:Chopping the barrel down to standard AK length and it would be a standard rifle... though slightly heavier because it was more strongly built.

    I think a better alternative would be to convert it to bullpup layout and keep the long barrel but make it shorter and handier. Its longer barrel gives it slightly more reach, and reportedly makes it rather more accurate.

    With newer higher velocity ammo you could probably use it against targets at 400-500m or so, which is about double the range of the FN Minimi but less than half the range of the PKP.
    If they switched it to a bullpup, then the manual of arms would be different. I've only held a FS2000, but I've always admired the bullpup design. The Russians experimented with them since the late 1940's and have used them in various niche roles, but they've never been too dead set on them though.
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    Post  medo Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:28 am

    I have no experience with PKP, but I would chose PKM anytime against RPK. It's light and effective and also its tripod with 5 kg is light and increase its effectiveness in defensive positions. I think squad equipped with PKM will not be much less effective than with PKP, but it is good, that PKP or PKM replace RPK in squad as squad machine gun.

    Are AGS-17/30 and Utes 12,7 machine gun used as platoon support armament?
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:06 pm

    The AGS-30 are used in separate platoons that can support other units.

    The enormous reduction in weight of the AGS-30 over the AGS-17 has greatly improved potential.

    The AGS-17 weighs about 30kgs including its tripod.

    One belt of 30mm grenades in its box weighs about 14kgs with 29 rounds of ammo.

    A normal AGS-17 unit will have one guy carrying the body of the launcher that weighs about 18kgs and one box mag for a total of about 30kgs weight. Two other guys in the team, one carries the tripod and another mag, and the third guy carries two more mags.

    With the AGS-30 the grenade launcher weighs 16kgs complete including tripod so the gunner can carry the entire weapon and one mag and his number two can carry two more mags and if present his number three can carry a further two mags.

    If they switched it to a bullpup, then the manual of arms would be different. I've only held a FS2000, but I've always admired the bullpup design. The Russians experimented with them since the late 1940's and have used them in various niche roles, but they've never been too dead set on them though.

    We have seen that change with the ADS and the new heavy calibre suppressed sniper rifles (ie 12.7 x 55mm calibre VSSK weapons).

    The ADS has the advantage that the cartridge ejection is well forward so the weapon can be fired left handed or right handed without adjustment.

    but it is good, that PKP or PKM replace RPK in squad as squad machine gun.

    I think that is important to keep in mind... the PKM is not being replaced by the PKP, the PKP is replacing the RPK-74 in the LMG role.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:27 am

    Look at 0:45, looks like the Strizh might actually get adopted.



    The video also shows the ORSIS T-5000 and an upgraded AK-74M. Would any Russian Speaking members mind summarizing what is being said?

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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:09 am

    Keep in mind that several pistols might be adopted for different purposes.

    As a Standard issue simple general pistol the PYa might be cheap and tick all the boxes.

    For more specialist use then a silenced weapon like the PSS might be used.

    I have read they are not buying any more Makarovs and instead are buying PYa and SPS pistols.

    (SPS of course is Gyurza or SP-1 pistol)

    In this video for Ratnik they show they are using the AK12, and also at about 2 minutes 50 seconds they show the new model of the SVDS with the adjustable cheek piece and adjustable length stock as well as the bipod and receiver top rail scope mount...



    Note in the video above that both the AK12 is shown at the start and the end a a few bits in the middle, but at about 3 minutes 10 seconds or so where the soldier is holding up his rifle it is a standard AK-74 with upgrades. The safety/selector bar is the old standard model.

    For those not familiar with firearms the adjustable cheek piece for the SVD is to rest your cheek against while firing. You have it down low so your eye is aligned with the iron sights and raised up to align it with a scope if one is fitted. A good head position is critical to shoot accurately and naturally.

    By positioning your head so it is perfectly aligned with the sights then swinging the rifle around to put the front sight on target is all that is needed for a hit. Without that fixed cheek position aiming becomes attempting to hold your head still with no support while lining up the rear and front sights and then trying to align all that up with the target... which is not easy and a common cause of poor accuracy with otherwise accurate weapons.


    Last edited by GarryB on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total
    Mr.Kalishnikov47
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:18 am

    I Hadn't seen that video yet, thanks.

    Man, they're trying out so many new weapons and pieces of equipment, it's making me really anxious to see what's going to get chosen for adoption. Still crossing my fingers for the AK-12 Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:53 am

    The thing is that they will likely allow for several weapons.

    For instance a few years back when the AK12 didn't exist they had the AN-94, the AK-74 and the AK-107.

    They didn't include the AS and VSS, but their future soldier kit is supposed to be used by all the soldiers in the Russian military so it has to allow for a range of primary and secondary weapons including special ones for special forces.

    The AK12 is clearly being included and the AK-74 will likely be replaced by the upgraded AK-74Mx with the x being whatever upgrade increment it might be by now.

    I suspect they will hold official new "tests" for a new rifle that the AK12 will win and the AN-94 will remain a very specialist weapon.

    I think initially they will start buying AK12s and upgrading AK-74s... the AK12s will go to special forces and priority forces, while the rest will get upgrade kits for new AK-74Ms and the result will be that they will be able to rapidly arm a very large force that is ready for the wide deployment of optics, both day and night optics.

    Special forces will get thermal weapon sights and the rest will get II scopes that can be used as monoculars and also helmet mounted sights. They will likely get issued with a low power day scope that they can attach their night vision monocular in front of at night.

    That alone should improve accuracy and range performance, and also allow training and exercises at night... which will be a significant step forward.

    Equally they will have several pistols in service, perhaps PYa as a standard sidearm, SPS for special use, and perhaps Strike One as a Special Forces side arm.

    Amongst the armed forces are a huge array of groups that require firearms and it is very unlikely they will all pick the same one... even within one group there might be a requirement for different types... is SPS for more power, PSS for quiet work etc etc.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:32 am

    For instance a few years back when the AK12 didn't exist they had the AN-94, the AK-74 and the AK-107.

    Don't forget the AEK-971. Smile

    It's worth noting that while they had these weapons, only one of them was being used in any significant numbers.

    They didn't include the AS and VSS, but their future soldier kit is supposed to be used by all the soldiers in the Russian military so it has to allow for a range of primary and secondary weapons including special ones for special forces.

    AK-12 (if it's issued) could probably fulfill most of the roles required by the Russian armed forces, due to it's ability to be modified to serve a wide variety of purposes.

    Of course if they do get adopted they aren't going to be issued to everybody at once, so most soldiers are probably going to be armed with the AK-74M.

    It should be noted that there's still a pretty modest number of Soviet era AK-74s and AKS-74Us that need to be replaced as well.

    Assuming everything goes according to plan most special forces will be armed with the AK-12 in a variety of forms, as well as the AS and VSS, and possibly the ADS. Who knows, they might even get a few AK-107s, or a version of the AK-12 meant to fulfill the role of the 107.

    There's also the new Ash-12 that the FSB has been rumored to be testing.

    Sounds like a bit of a mess to me Suspect

    I suspect they will hold official new "tests" for a new rifle that the AK12 will win and the AN-94 will remain a very specialist weapon.

    It's pretty clear that the AN-94 is not well liked. They should probably get rid of any still in service, if they haven't already.


    I pretty much agree with everything else you've said. I guess we'll have to wait and see how everything turns out.



    Last edited by Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Zivo Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:06 pm

    Here's a video of that bizarre bullpup(maybe?) PKP.



    *edit: Bonus image, it's a franken-gun Shocked

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 17 Attachment
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:49 pm

    I think it's a really neat idea. attack

    I've noticed that a lot of the time, soldiers will just fire the PKP from the hip. While this does allow them to fire on the move, it's doesn't look all that accurate.

    This modification makes the weapon a lot shorter, and thus easier to shoulder properly. This allows for shorter, more accurate bursts of fire. It also makes the weapon more compact, without decreasing the overall range of the weapon.

    Like I said, a pretty neat idea.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:30 am

    Don't forget the AEK-971.

    I was talking about the rifles in the Barmitsa future soldier system.

    The AEK-971 is a balanced recoil rifle just like the AK-107, so there is no need for both rifles to be included.

    It's worth noting that while they had these weapons, only one of them was being used in any significant numbers.

    True, but then the AS and VSS are widely deployed to recon units and were not mentioned as standard kit either.

    To qualify for the future soldier system they didn't need to be in service... just planned for future service.

    AK-12 (if it's issued) could probably fulfill most of the roles required by the Russian armed forces, due to it's ability to be modified to serve a wide variety of purposes.

    Of course if they do get adopted they aren't going to be issued to everybody at once, so most soldiers are probably going to be armed with the AK-74M.

    Indeed on cost grounds the AK12 and the AK-74 upgrade might both be included in the system.

    There's also the new Ash-12 that the FSB has been rumored to be testing.

    The ASh-12 is a specialist weapon in 12.7 x 55mm calibre... if anything it might be used as a heavier and longer ranged AS and VSS.

    Sounds like a bit of a mess to me Suspect

    Sounds like an extensive toolkit that includes loud and quiet stuff and stuff for underwater and for long range and for short range.

    It's pretty clear that the AN-94 is not well liked. They should probably get rid of any still in service, if they haven't already.

    The AN-94 is not cheap to mass produce and is complex to maintain, but is accurate and does what it says it does so for some specific users it is worth it.

    For these reasons it is unlikely to have widespread success, and of course if the AK12 has improved accuracy to the level of the AN-94 then it might quietly disappear and be replaced by easier rifles to make.

    Certainly made some gunmakers pull finger so to speak.

    Does this mean the Gyurza will finally get some love?

    Currently the only option in that calibre, so it is doing all right.

    I haven't heard anything about them testing the Gsh-18 yet. Does this mean they have found a weapon that can better fulfill it's intended purpose?

    AFAIK it was tested by the VDV and passed.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:59 am

    I was talking about the rifles in the Barmitsa future soldier system.

    My mistake.

    Sounds like an extensive toolkit that includes loud and quiet stuff and stuff for underwater and for long range and for short range.

    Well of course the end result is going to be. I was referring to the process of actually buying all the new weapons and replacing all of the old ones.

    They still have to replace weapons that were meant to be replaced by the weapon they're replacing.

    The AN-94 is not cheap to mass produce and is complex to maintain, but is accurate and does what it says it does so for some specific users it is worth it.

    For these reasons it is unlikely to have widespread success, and of course if the AK12 has improved accuracy to the level of the AN-94 then it might quietly disappear and be replaced by easier rifles to make.

    I suppose I shouldn't judge the AN-94 without personally having handled it, but to me it seems that it's more hassle than it's worth. If you're using 5.45x39, AK is good enough accuracy wise imo. If you need a little more precision than an SVD would be a lot cheaper than an AN-94.

    Putting two rounds on target at once is cool, but a 7.62x54 to the chest will likely have the same effect. Twisted Evil

    Currently the only option in that calibre, so it is doing all right.

    Good. Last I heard it was only seeing much use among the FSB, but you tend to stay on top of these things better than me, so I'll take your word for it. Of all the Russian pistols that have been appearing in recent years, the SPS is my personal favorite, so I hope to see it do well. Although I suppose that's a weird thing to say without ever having had the chance to fire any of them. . Wink

    AFAIK it was tested by the VDV and passed.

    So it's been adopted for the future soldier program?
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:32 am

    One of the only criticisms I have read about the PKP is that having the bipod at the muzzle that when firing from the hip you can't reach the bipod leg to hold it.

    The obvious solution of course is a front grip like this:

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 17 7r_ks410

    But that bullpup kit will also be useful where a longer weapon might not be so useful.

    I have heard that this is a kit that can be applied to the weapon.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:29 am

    Zivo wrote: Literally two days ago, 1,000 Vepr-12's got off the boat from Russia. It's such a nice shotgun that until now has been impossible to get in the states. I should have mine in a few weeks Cool

    What?! Vepr-12s too?! Wow I really need to pay more attention! Laughing

    Now if only they would bring factory dragunov's here. Neutral

    Amen to that!
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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:53 am

    My mistake.

    My fault for not being clearer... Embarassed

    Well of course the end result is going to be. I was referring to the process of actually buying all the new weapons and replacing all of the old ones.

    They still have to replace weapons that were meant to be replaced by the weapon they're replacing.

    A less obvious problem is that they are also working on a brand new weapons family that might include new calibres, or perhaps even new types of ammo, so I suspect a large portion of existing stocks will be upgraded till the newer products are ready.

    Of course a shift to new ammo types can be expensive, but lighter cheaper more compact ammo would pay for itself in a few years.

    I suppose I shouldn't judge the AN-94 without personally having handled it, but to me it seems that it's more hassle than it's worth. If you're using 5.45x39, AK is good enough accuracy wise imo. If you need a little more precision than an SVD would be a lot cheaper than an AN-94.

    I agree, we can really only go by why we have heard about the weapon, if the AK12 can match its accuracy and at the same time is rather easier to use and handle and is also cheaper and easier to make and train people to use then it becomes a bit of a no brainer.

    Putting two rounds on target at once is cool, but a 7.62x54 to the chest will likely have the same effect.

    Very true, and able to do it to much greater ranges.

    Although I suppose that's a weird thing to say without ever having had the chance to fire any of them.

    I very much share your wish for better hands on knowledge of such things.

    I have read that the Gyurza had a particularly light trigger pull, and that the grip safety has a lot of critics.

    Personally I think with such a pistol that a proper hold of the weapon should ensure activation of the safety release and if you aren't holding it properly you shouldn't want it to go bang.


    So it's been adopted for the future soldier program?

    It was part of Barmitza:

    http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/equipment/barmitsa_02.html

    if you scroll down it includes the PYa, GSh-18, and SR-1M.

    Oh God I want it. .

    That spec sheet doesn't match the weapon... that is an SR1 (Gyurza pistol), not an SR-2 SMG...

    This is an SR2:

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 17 63142710

    Which is a SMG in 9 x 21mm, while the SR-3 is an AS replacement in 9 x 39mm calibre.

    Now if only they would bring factory dragunov's here.

    I suspect these changes are because Russia is now a member of the WTO and it is not legal to just ban weapons from a specific country.

    That would suggest that all those weapons the Russian Army wants to get rid of might find a home in American Gun cabinets... Smile
    Start saving up boys... Smile
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:36 am

    GarryB wrote:I agree, we can really only go by why we have heard about the weapon, if the AK12 can match its accuracy and at the same time is rather easier to use and handle and is also cheaper and easier to make and train people to use then it becomes a bit of a no brainer.

    I wouldn't know about accuracy, but I can tell from a glance which weapon wins in the rest of those categories, and it isn't the AN-94. Wink

    I have read that the Gyurza had a particularly light trigger pull, and that the grip safety has a lot of critics.

    Most of it's users just tape the grip safety down, so it's really a non issue in my opinion.

    Personally I think with such a pistol that a proper hold of the weapon should ensure activation of the safety release and if you aren't holding it properly you shouldn't want it to go bang.

    True, although I personally wouldn't want to increase the chances of my weapon not firing when I go to pull the trigger, so I'd probably just tape the grip safety like everybody else.

    It was part of Barmitza:

    http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/equipment/barmitsa_02.html

    if you scroll down it includes the PYa, GSh-18, and SR-1M.

    Interesting. Thank you for your answer.



    That spec sheet doesn't match the weapon... that is an SR1 (Gyurza pistol), not an SR-2 SMG...

    To be honest Garry, I was too busy checking out the gun to pay much attention to the spread sheet. Wink

    Thanks for the photo though.

    Which is a SMG in 9 x 21mm, while the SR-3 is an AS replacement in 9 x 39mm calibre.

    I thought they were intended to fulfill different purposes. As far as I know the SR-3 is meant to be a CQB/LE/VIP protection type of weapon, while the main goal behind the design of the AS VAL was achieving as much stealth as possible.

    I could be wrong of course. .

    I suspect these changes are because Russia is now a member of the WTO and it is not legal to just ban weapons from a specific country.

    That would suggest that all those weapons the Russian Army wants to get rid of might find a home in American Gun cabinets... Smile
    Start saving up boys... Smile

    I might have to sell a few of my AKs lol1
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:03 pm

    I wouldn't know about accuracy, but I can tell from a glance which weapon wins in the rest of those categories, and it isn't the AN-94.

    It is not the prettiest weapon, with the pistol grip and stock at an odd angle and of course the magazine angled out to one side.

    Most of it's users just tape the grip safety down, so it's really a non issue in my opinion.

    I have heard that it had a very light trigger pull that was considered almost dangerous by some.

    If that is the case then neutralising the only safety is not the best idea.

    I think the best solution would also be to adopt a proper grip before even thinking about pulling the trigger.

    Interesting. Thank you for your answer.

    I believe the equipment set being shown at the moment is actually called Ratnik-2, and I suspect they will continue to improve and change it as new equipment becomes available... it is constantly evolving.

    Eventually however they are working on a whole new generation family of weapons which might replace all the existing weapons in the kit and the new weapons, which should include pretty much all standard weapons.

    I thought they were intended to fulfill different purposes. As far as I know the SR-3 is meant to be a CQB/LE/VIP protection type of weapon, while the main goal behind the design of the AS VAL was achieving as much stealth as possible.

    I could be wrong of course. .

    You are quite right, I just mentioned the SR-3 as the next weapon from that maker. The SR-1 and SR-2 are pistol and SMG in the same calibre of 9 x 21mm. Each would be used when the enemy is expected to be wearing body armour and they compliment each other as they are both in the same calibre.

    The SR-3 is for a different purpose and is very much a potential replacement for the AS/VSS and is in the same category as the AK9.

    I might have to sell a few of my AKs

    These new multi calibre civilian rifles sound interesting... I will be saving up my drinking money I think.... Smile
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:40 pm

    What I find a bit odd is that the AK-12 has no competition from other weapons manufacturers in Russia.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:12 pm

    What I find a bit odd is that the AK-12 has no competition from other weapons manufacturers in Russia.

    Are you kidding?

    There is the AK-107 and the AK-200 as competition from the same factory as the AK12.

    From KBP there is the ADS, and from AEK there is probably a new model as well and I rather doubt Nikonov has been asleep either... there will likely be a new AN-94 model too.

    There is plenty of new competition... in fact in many ways... perhaps too much.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:44 am

    GarryB wrote:
    What I find a bit odd is that the AK-12 has no competition from other weapons manufacturers in Russia.

    Are you kidding?

    There is the AK-107 and the AK-200 as competition from the same factory as the AK12.

    From KBP there is the ADS, and from AEK there is probably a new model as well and I rather doubt Nikonov has been asleep either... there will likely be a new AN-94 model too.

    There is plenty of new competition... in fact in many ways... perhaps too much.
    They said the AK-12 would be submitted for state tests in 2013, they didn't mention anything about the AK-107 though. Doesn't they aren't considering the AK-107 necessarily either though. I believe the AK-200 was just an AK-74M with rails, not a different rifle really. Regardless of what it's called, an upgraded AK-74M with rails is competition to the AK-12 like you said.

    I don't believe the ZID plant was offering AEK-971 anymore. The ADS doesn't seem to be as serious of a competitor. What I meant is there doesn't seem to be any serious competition from other plants to make a new rifle for the Russian army besides Izmash.

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