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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:33 am

    Subsonic rounds are certainly ideal for some situations, but not so good for others.

    A 9mm 250 grain projectile is effective to extended ranges, but a 7.62mm round in 193 grain can be almost as effective, but with a 122 grain supersonic projectile more effective over greater distances.

    the 7.62 x 39mm seems to have established a 154 grain projectile as the most popular compromise in performance, so providing a 7.62mm calibre weapon able to fire supersonic 154 grain projectiles and 193 grain subsonic rounds for when being quiet is needed makes more sense than a 9mm weapon that is more optimised for subsonic operation.

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    Post  Kyo Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:14 pm

    Kalashnikov group welcomes plans to produce AK-47 in US
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:10 pm

    So nothing else than illegal copy-cats with the shame label "Made in USA", i hope they sue the shit out off them and it ends like it should end to big blow back to those fools.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:06 pm

    Oh yeah, those evil copycats, fooling the poor russians who would never dare to rip-off anything themselves *cough*stg-44*cough* Wink
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:32 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Oh yeah, those evil copycats, fooling the poor russians who would never dare to rip-off anything themselves *cough*stg-44*cough* Wink

    Ah, this old diatribe. It was pretty much concluded they are not related.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:37 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Oh yeah, those evil copycats, fooling the poor russians who would never dare to rip-off anything themselves *cough*stg-44*cough* Wink

    Ah, this old diatribe. It was pretty much concluded they are not related.

    Why, of course they're unrelated. Just like B-29 and Tu-4 Wink
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:47 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Oh yeah, those evil copycats, fooling the poor russians who would never dare to rip-off anything themselves *cough*stg-44*cough* Wink

    You are truelly uneducated to put it very frankly.

    Those designs have ZERO similiarities, they are absolutley different.

    Two different mechanics, for imbeciles, the one is a rotating bolt which is today relative standard for most assault rifles, the other was a tilt bolt mechanism, they not even compatible even if it would fit in each others receiver.

    The same stupidity i see from little mp.net fanboys saying WZ-10 is a copy-cat of Apache, not even similiarities of appearance but mumbling of garbage, you really should educate yourself before commenting such facepalming nonsense.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:54 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Oh yeah, those evil copycats, fooling the poor russians who would never dare to rip-off anything themselves *cough*stg-44*cough* Wink

    You are truelly uneducated to put it very frankly.

    Those designs have ZERO similiarities, they are absolutley different.

    Two different mechanics, for imbeciles, the one is a rotating bolt which is today relative standard for most assault rifles, the other was a tilt bolt mechanism, they not even compatible even if it would fit in each others receiver.

    The same stupidity i see from little mp.net fanboys saying WZ-10 is a copy-cat of Apache, not even similiarities of appearance but mumbling of garbage, you really should educate yourself before commenting such facepalming nonsense.


    Yes, you're definitely right.

    Naturally, it's completely incomprehensible that stg, being for all intents and purposes an experimental rifle, could have different iterations of operating mechanism, at least in paper.

    And of course, all those soviet designers with huge experience and reputation (tokarev, shpagin, degtyariov) could in no way exceed a hardly literate nobody (mikhail kalashnikov) in designing the best rifle in the world at the time.
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    Post  Kyo Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:31 pm

    Kalashnikov approves new production location for American-made AK-47
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:02 pm

    The only reason why the company is saying they approve is because they cant do anything about it, and suing wont work, so they are trying to save face instead. In your first article, the company stated they dont care what the Kalashnikov company says if they agree or not, as thry were not looking for approvals. So this still stands as a cheap knockoff of the real ones and that this is pure plagerism. But, they can do that. Only thing is, the name the company can get sued for.
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    Post  Regular Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:08 pm

    Well it wouldn't be the first time it will be copied. I wish they will copy whole range, even AK-107, whole Saigas and even AK-12 Very Happy those weapons will swoop the market.
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    Post  Regular Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:37 pm

    I don't think that AK-47 was pure copy of STG-44. What they share is similar apearance, it has strong influence on ak design, as STG proven to be outstanding assault rifle. But it doesn't end with it. It borrowed ideas from many other known or not well known designs, from SKS to Garand, soviet and foreign.
    AS-42 was closer to STG-44 than AK-47
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 29 As44

    M.Kalashnikov was teamleader of weapon designers and engineers. Creation of AK wasn't one easy go, and looking at ak prototypes it seems that team tried many ideas. Misha too wasn't nobody, apart from good teamleader he had some solo experience with submashines and carabines.
    With AK-47 they didn't have to reinvent a wheel. AK-47 too me looks like really natured fruit of very experienced people, one of specialists might have been Hugo Schmeisser who was in Russia at the time. Not to mention plenty of soviet gun designers could've offered their expertise.
    Anyways, Misha was always modest person and he never said he made AK alone. I have big respect for him.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:36 am

    A team of german engineers got captured by the soviets, and ordered to design guns.

    One version was well received by the leadership, and was adopted. Of course, designating it "muller rifle" or something would be politically unacceptable Wink
    So, some peasant constructor was chosen to take the credit (it's not like he was receiving royalties or anything for the obvious reasons Wink )
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:48 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:A team of german engineers got captured by the soviets, and ordered to design guns.

    One version was well received by the leadership, and was adopted. Of course, designating it "muller rifle" or something would be politically unacceptable Wink
    So, some peasant constructor was chosen to take the credit (it's not like he was receiving royalties or anything for the obvious reasons Wink )

    Yes the Germans and their Uber scientists (that could of won the 'war' had Hitler allowed them Rolling Eyes ) were responsible for the legendary reliable AK-47/AKM, further Pr00f of German engineered reliable assault rifles is the G36 and it's 'legendary' reliability... Razz

    Yes another Baltic resident declaring superiority of Germany over Russia, clearly we never heard that tired story before... Rolling Eyes
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    Post  TR1 Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:53 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Oh yeah, those evil copycats, fooling the poor russians who would never dare to rip-off anything themselves *cough*stg-44*cough* Wink

    Ah, this old diatribe. It was pretty much concluded they are not related.

    Why, of course they're unrelated. Just like B-29 and Tu-4 Wink

    That is just not an accurate comparison, at all.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:05 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:A team of german engineers got captured by the soviets, and ordered to design guns.

    One version was well received by the leadership, and was adopted. Of course, designating it "muller rifle" or something would be politically unacceptable Wink
    So, some peasant constructor was chosen to take the credit (it's not like he was receiving royalties or anything for the obvious reasons Wink )

    Yes the Germans and their Uber scientists (that could of won the 'war' had Hitler allowed them Rolling Eyes ) were responsible for the legendary reliable AK-47/AKM, further Pr00f of German engineered reliable assault rifles is the G36 and it's 'legendary' reliability... Razz

    Yes another Baltic resident declaring superiority of Germany over Russia, clearly we never heard that tired story before... Rolling Eyes

    Yes, in a true baltic spirit, I must bash anything related to russia, nothing personal Twisted Evil
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:00 am

    @etaepsilonk: First to tell you, StG44 is NOT an assault rifle.

    It is a machine pistol. Its original name is MP44. It was designed to suit the taste of Hitler and his political allies which are machine pistol designers.

    Mauser's assault rifle program which used GECO intermediate catridge, was destroyed by the MP allies of Hitler.

    MP44 does not have a handguard, which is neccessary for the soldier to take a proper aim when using rifle.

    Instead the soldier put his hand at the magazine. This is a standard position for MP which enable to user to change the direction quickly in close combat.

    MP44 used PISTOL catridge, named Pistolpatrone, which overpressured gunpowder. MP44's power and range is only slightly better than Russian PPSh, and does not have the standard of true assault rifle.

    So in short MP44 is a MACHINE PISTOL aka SUBMACHINE GUN, which the size and weight of a rifle. Therefore, this is a humiliation for Germany military. The name was changed to StG for propaganda reason.

    Some people claimed that MP44/StG44 is a rifle because of the G letter. WRONG. In Germany, "G" means gun, any kinds of gun. MG is a machine gun, not machine rifle.

    If Germany use "G" alone without any prefix (G41, G43, G3, G11, G36), then "G" means service gun, a standard firearm for all the army. For the case of G41 and G43, the standard gun is heavy rifle of WW1, WW2. For the case of G3, G11, G36, standard gun is modern assault rife.

    In short, AK-47 has nothing to do with MP44. An interesting thing is that, AK-47's bolt is created by learning the design of M1 Garand, but AK-47 bolt have much bigger lugs to withstand strong external force.

    So why the US's fanboys usually say this and that about MP44, while in fact AK-47 learn many things form their own American M1 Garand ?

    I conclude that these fanboys have no brain to begin with.
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:09 am

    Regular wrote:AS-42 was closer to STG-44 than AK-47
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 29 As44

    AS-44 and MP44 both use tilting bolt. The tilting bolt was not favoured in Germany and Russia because it causes horizontal vibration. And the Soviet concluded that AS-44 is too heavy.

    AS-44 could not be matured and perfected due to the early death of Sudaev. However, it testified the concept of assault rilfle and the intermediate catridge, which emerged from the Fedorov Avtomat. The idea of Fedorov finally resulted in the M43 7.62mm catridge and the AKs and CKC guns.

    Meanwhile the old Mosin heavy catridge was transferred to light machine gun and sniper rifle.

    I would like to say it again, Fedorov Avtomat is the first successful assault rifle, not MP44 like many fanboys claimed. MP44 is a failure, it is a machine pistol in the shape of a big rifle.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:25 pm

    So nothing else than illegal copy-cats with the shame label "Made in USA", i hope they sue the shit out off them and it ends like it should end to big blow back to those fools.

    Seems to me that this American company has bought the rights to import Kalashnikovs into the US... a deal that was almost ruined by US bans on imports.

    They are getting around the ban by producing the rifles in the US, with presumably some sort of contract with Kalashnikov for royalties.

    It basically means Kalashnikov gets around the US government ban and sells weapons to Americans.

    the fact that they will be made in the US just means Kalashnikov wont have the costs of making them and shipping them and will just receive money for their sales.

    Oh yeah, those evil copycats, fooling the poor russians who would never dare to rip-off anything themselves *cough*stg-44*cough*

    Hilarious attempt at trolling, that fails because it is widely accepted even in the biased west that the Stg-44 is the design basis of the FN FAL and if you had to find a Soviet rifle with a similar mechanism design it would be the SKS... which is of course a scaled down version of the PTRS-41 which actually predates the Stg-44 by three years.

    On the other hand if you were looking for copying there were several German automatic rifles that were rubbish and used the Bang recoil method G-41M and G-41W and then the German forces met Tokarev rifles in combat and their next iteration, G-43, has a Tokarev gas system and the rifles go from mediocre to acceptable in performance terms.

    Why, of course they're unrelated. Just like B-29 and Tu-4

    The Tu-4 is an unlicenced copy of the B-29, though it did have rather better engines and guns.

    Naturally, it's completely incomprehensible that stg, being for all intents and purposes an experimental rifle, could have different iterations of operating mechanism, at least in paper.

    Yeah, of course, they had an AK design, but chose to go with an inferior heavier design with the actual service model... Rolling Eyes

    And of course, all those soviet designers with huge experience and reputation (tokarev, shpagin, degtyariov) could in no way exceed a hardly literate nobody (mikhail kalashnikov) in designing the best rifle in the world at the time.

    They all had competing designs that were rejected.

    Funny how they selected the AK on its merits rather than the education level or social status of its designer...

    The only reason why the company is saying they approve is because they cant do anything about it, and suing wont work, so they are trying to save face instead. In your first article, the company stated they dont care what the Kalashnikov company says if they agree or not, as thry were not looking for approvals. So this still stands as a cheap knockoff of the real ones and that this is pure plagerism. But, they can do that. Only thing is, the name the company can get sued for.

    Why would they refuse permission to produce the rifles in the US? They are losing a lot of money with the US import ban... why not get a bit back in royalties?

    Personally I think it is pretty dumb to buy a US made AK... a bit like buying a French made AR-15... but what do I know.

    Yes, in a true baltic spirit, I must bash anything related to russia, nothing personal

    So you are basically trolling and living up to a stupid stereotype.

    AS-42 was closer to STG-44 than AK-47

    The PTRS-41 has an identical mechanism to the Stg-44.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:31 pm

    More important than this waste of bandwidth, the fact that they are allowing 7.62 x 39mm and 5.45 x 39mm calibre rifles compete to be part of Ratnik is interesting.

    Of course they could all pass the tests and be options for users of Ratnik, which would certainly make the kit more flexible as you would have a wider choice of rifle if all three were an option.

    With the 7.62 x 39mm calibre I am surprised Kalashnikov didn't go with the AK-107 balanced recoil design as the heavier calibre does have heavier recoil so a balanced mechanism would improve performance more noticeably than in the smaller calibre.
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:41 pm

    The 5.45mm M74 is damn complicated and amongst AK-users only Russia had the ability to mass-produce it... so I wonder is it very expensive if somebody want to buy the techs and facilities for producing M74.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:35 pm

    Yes, in a true baltic spirit, I must bash anything related to russia, nothing personal

    Alright, just to clarify, I never thought that stg and ak are identical guns, if the joking nature of my post is not realized.

    What I'm suspicious of, is kalashnikov's actual involvement. It's more of an opinion, rather than a hard fact.

    In it's time AK was a radical innovation, how could an inexperienced designer come up with this, combining parts of different guns in just a right proportions? Sheer talent? Possible, but when we look at his achievements afterwards, they don't seem very innovative, other than simply modifying the existing design.

    And I know very well that Russian state machine has always loved to make heroes out of thin air, so don't be surprised at my scepticism.
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    Post  Regular Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:47 pm

    STG44 wasn't a failure. And was sub machine gun only in name Smile How can u call it like that? There is a version it about it's name. WW2 gave birth to many interesting small weapons. Weapon designing was hit and miss, now we know everything, we have precise calculations, simulations and designs of today are boring Smile
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:55 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:What I'm suspicious of, is kalashnikov's actual involvement. It's more of an opinion, rather than a hard fact.

    In it's time AK was a radical innovation, how could an inexperienced designer come up with this, combining parts of different guns in just a right proportions? Sheer talent? Possible, but when we look at his achievements afterwards, they don't seem very innovative, other than simply modifying the existing design.

    And I know very well that Russian state machine has always loved to make heroes out of thin air, so don't be surprised at my scepticism.

    Because AK-47 is the fruit of a grandiose teamwork project, made by dozens of scientists and technicians in 4 decades, started with Fedorov Avtomat in 1916 and ended with AKM in 1959.

    You have to understand that many designers participated in the competition for a standard assault rifle. And Kalashnikov is the winner.

    The aim of that project is created a new generation of standard service gun, which fullfil both requirements about range/firepower and assault capability. Which we call "assault rifle" today. The key point of that project is that 1) suitable intermediate catridge and 2) suitable action mechanism of the gun.

    Fedorov Avtomat is the first technically successful assault rifle, although its lifespan is short due to the stupidity of the prostitute corrupted Tsarist regime. Nonetheless, FA established the very foundation and concept for assault rifle and then dozens of designers, scientists, technicians toghether developed his idea, resulted in the M43 catridge and the Avtomat Kalashnicov.
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    Post  collegeboy16 Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:43 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:

    Alright, just to clarify, I never thought that stg and ak are identical guns, if the joking nature of my post is not realized.

    What I'm suspicious of, is kalashnikov's actual involvement. It's more of an opinion, rather than a hard fact.

    In it's time AK was a radical innovation, how could an inexperienced designer come up with this, combining parts of different guns in just a right proportions? Sheer talent? Possible, but when we look at his achievements afterwards, they don't seem very innovative, other than simply modifying the existing design.

    And I know very well that Russian state machine has always loved to make heroes out of thin air, so don't be surprised at my scepticism.
    how many successful inventors actually made something better after their magnum opus? plus after nearly 70 years AK design is mostly valid- true sign of a classic, can't say that for stg-44.

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