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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    Peŕrier

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    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:39 am

    First, I think Kirovs are quite unique ships with unparalleled capabilities inside russian navy.

    It would be just a good thing to get three of them back on service.

    On the other hand, a ship is not just a hull: a naval ship is made of hundreds, if not thousands of subsystems.

    If most of them are in a poor state, it could be just cheaper and more cost effective to build a new vessel from scratch than trying to restore and update an old hull with most of systems out of service.

    As sad as it could seems, I think it will be more effective to save the present two operational Kirovs and use the third as a spare parts' source, than restoring a dilapidated vessel draining funds useful to build brand new ships.

    IMHO, the focus should be to finalize and build a destroyer's size AAW ship, followed by a dedicated ASW variant of the same ship.

    About the so called phobia for large ships, I think it's only generated by the uncertain state of priorities: granted the russian navy would receive the required funds both to invest in new ships and to maintain and support them, projects would be finalized and appear far less Sci-Fi than so far published renderings.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:06 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:................
    Lazarov was found to have a weak hull and would require extensive and expensive work to put it back into shape, so far the MoD has been unwilling to provide the vast funding the ship would need. .............

    What number are we talking about here?

    Pre-Estimates was 2x was close to the current refit price for the Naka and the Russians had to sink more money into that ship then reported mind you.

    So if they tried to refit Lazarov it the price would only get more expensive from the pre-estimate which happens all the time with this kind of project.

    End of the day you would be looking at 2.5-3 Billion for it and thats me being generous, they would have to redo the entire hull replace all the wiring, replace all the sub systems.

    The reactor etc it's just not worth it and the MoD knows this hence why they dropped it officially.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 am

    3 billion that's pretty much cost of 2 Yasen subs, you are right definitely not worth it.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:19 am

    From recollection Nakhimov has wound up requiring significantly more structural repairs than was estimated.
    Combined with the earlier conclusion after inspections that Nakhimov was in way better structural shape than Lazarev -> stick a fork in Lazarev (possibly literally).
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:38 pm

    Ok, so from this we can be certain that upgrading the other 2 Kirovs is simply out of the question, but i still doubt the MoD would actually commit to the Lider.
    Since there is also the possibility that they will focus on the Super-Gorshkov and push back the Lider indefinitely, again just my opinion.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:44 am

    They need a cruiser level vessel to operate with any new carriers down the track and to base surface groups around.

    Right now they have two cruisers that could do with some serious upgrades.

    Personally I would like to see them rip out the entire propulsion system and replace it with the new nukes developed for their new carriers.


    Such simplification would likely free up a lot of space and allow a bit of a shift around.

    I would get rid of the shafts and use propulsion pods and make her all electric drive.

    Test some early model systems developed for the new cruiser designs in these ships and also in the Kuznetsov with its upgrade.
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    Post  Guest on Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:01 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Nobody is disputing value of upgrading Kirovs. In fact I think that they should go extra mile and try to get third one back in use and upgrade it.

    I know that it's in crappy condition but they should at least try to rebuilt and replace segments that are busted if they can.

    Same goes for rest of the fleet, upgrade everything. At least they finally got around to upgrading Udalois instead of scraping them.

    As for smaller new ships whole point is to put advanced weaponry on more manageable and numerous platforms.  

    the third one that thing is a giant rust bucket, I've seen the shape it's in, it would be shocking if they decided to try and modernize it.

    The look doesn't tell you if the ship is in good condition or not. There were some officials telling they could upgrade all of them so it means they are pretty good and rust could be taken off pretty easily even with coca cola ...

    Structure should be intact as they are nuk ships so they were build with better quality than corvettes or frigates. The materials used are top quality. There was a post here of an official from shipyards telling that the iron used for them is one of the best produced.

    Steel, not iron for sure Very Happy

    And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.
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    Post  Guest on Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:03 am

    hoom wrote:From recollection Nakhimov has wound up requiring significantly more structural repairs than was estimated.
    Combined with the earlier conclusion after inspections that Nakhimov was in way better structural shape than Lazarev -> stick a fork in Lazarev (possibly literally).

    Allegedly work on Nakhimov already started when they found out additional issues with hull integrity, so they had to deal with those issues first. I am not sure if they planned such extensive hull repairs as they were forced to conduct.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:20 am

    On the progress of the modernization of the heavy cruiser Admiral Nakhimov on the project 11442M on Sevmash




    Yuriy Borisov confirmed plans to send "Peter the Great" for modernization

    According to the Information and Communications Department of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation of 29.11.2017, Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Yury Borisov confirmed plans to send a heavy nuclear-powered nuclear cruiser Peter the Great to upgrade the flagship of the Northern Fleet.

    "The strategic nuclear fleet, multipurpose submarines will develop, and the ships of the distant sea zone (heavy nuclear missile cruisers)" Admiral Nakhimov "and" Peter the Great "will be renovated and modernized. We have a lot of work to do, "the deputy head of the military department said at a meeting with the leadership of the Navy and representatives of the United Shipbuilding Corporation dedicated to the implementation of the State Defense Order of 2017.

    According to Yuri Borisov, these works will be carried out within the framework of the new State Arms Program 2018-2027.

    After the return to the combat composition of the Navy of the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, which is undergoing a profound modernization, modernization of the same type cruiser Peter the Great will begin, said the commander of the Northern Fleet, Vice Admiral Nikolai Evmenov.

    Separately, I note that in the "Reference" section of this message, the Department of Information and Mass Communications has confirmed its reputation as a "reliable" source:
    ...
    "Admiral Nakhimov", in particular, will carry cruise missiles "Caliber". The ship will be equipped with a new anti-aircraft missile system "Police-Redut", its antiaircraft ammunition will be increased at times.

    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2123728.html
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:31 am

    Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.

    Not sure about that.  Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust.  Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.

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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:05 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.

    Not sure about that.  Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust.  Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.

    According to a retired officer in a interview on the Kirov's, he claimed they were built to last 100 years (structurally speaking)
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:40 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.

    Not sure about that.  Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust.  Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.

    According to a retired officer in a interview on the Kirov's, he claimed they were built to last 100 years (structurally speaking)

    All ships look sound until you get inside of them, unless the things are keeling over you won't see a problem from the outside.

    He "claims" claims are just that.
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    Post  Tingsay on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:59 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Militarov wrote:And from what i read before Lazarov is in quite bad shape.

    Not sure about that.  Lazarov looks rather sad and sorry while she was mothballed and cannabalised to keep her sisters operating, but only seemed to suffer from some weather staining and surface rust.  Pics of her emerging from dry-dock for preservation work show her looking quite sound structurally.

    According to a retired officer in a interview on the Kirov's, he claimed they were built to last 100 years (structurally speaking)

    All ships look sound until you get inside of them, unless the things are keeling over you won't see a problem from the outside.

    He "claims" claims are just that.

    Not saying you are wrong but a good looking outside would most likely have a good inside since the outside is the most exposed to the elements, right?
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:02 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:He "claims" claims are just that.
    May I suggest that your claims are no better?

    If the Lazarev was really in such an allegedly poor state, why would the RuN commit scarce funds to her dry-docking and preservation? IMHO these allegations are just more of the usual policy-mandated shit-canning of all things Russian.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:18 am


    He "claims" claims are just that.

    Claims either way are all we have.... what a shocker that you believe the negative claims and dismiss the positive ones.
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    Post  walle83 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:54 am

    If China could get the old rustbucket Varyag back in shape then offcource its possible to repair all the old Kirov:s. The question is just if its economical worth it.
    Personaly i dont think so. Yes I would love seing these impressive ships back at sea but how many corvettes and frigates can you get for the same price?
    If the price for 1 updated Kirov = 4 brand new frigates, then frigates is my choice.
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    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:01 am

    Tingsay wrote:

    Not saying you are wrong but a good looking outside would most likely have a good inside since the outside is the most exposed to the elements, right?

    That could be true for the hull itself, unless water salt and galvanic currents have claimed an heavy toll on some internal structure.

    But onboard systems, hydraulics like electrical and pneumatic ones, won't last like the hull itself even with constant maintenace.

    So I do no doubt the ship as a hull could still be sound, but rebuilding most of the internal systems, with kilometers of piping and power lines, hundreds hydraulic actuators, fans, monitoring sensors and so on, would be a long and expensive work.

    Last but not least, having a NPP means lot of work to analyze possible sources of nuclear contamination and likely a complete rebuild and certification of the NPP itself, which in turn could be more expensive than dismantling the whole thing and building a brand new one.

    It is up to the Russian Navy to evaluate if the resources required are better applied to overhaul Admiral Nakhimov or to build something else from scratch.

    My bet is that Nakhimov is still in such a state that it could be overhauled, but I won't bet up to what real plans for it are.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:27 am

    GarryB wrote:

    He "claims" claims are just that.

    Claims either way are all we have.... what a shocker that you believe the negative claims and dismiss the positive ones.

    Hm....that so Garry.

    For the record, I fully believe the S-35 is vastly better than the F-35 and I have dismissed all claims from pro-western guys stating otherwise.

    I fully believe Russian AD and missiles systems are better, I fully believe Russian Tank guns are better than Western ones. I believe other russians things are better than western ones

    however Garry if you insist on doing this with me, Naka was found to be in a much sorrier state then what was believe a MUCH worse one and it was built at a later date then Lazarov...

    Kirov is a heap of junk, now buddy. Knowing this about these two ships. I'll ignore what I know about them.

    just because they built the things to last for 100 years and number one and three are where found to be in piss poor condition. somehow you want me to believe the second one...which the Russians the looked at and said themselves it's in poor of a condition when they looked into bringing all of them back online thus they only went with the two that they considered feasible.


    SO because some officer, said this I am supposed to ignore, the shape of the others was found in, the fact the Russian government said themselves Lazarov is in bad of condition, I am supposed to ignore that for this "officer".

    Please tell me your aren't that much of a fanboy.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:30 am

    walle83 wrote:If China could get the old rustbucket Varyag back in shape then offcource its possible to repair all the old Kirov:s. The question is just if its economical worth it.
    Personaly i dont think so. Yes I would love seing these impressive ships back at sea but how many corvettes and frigates can you get for the same price?
    If the price for 1 updated Kirov = 4 brand new frigates, then frigates is my choice.

    Smartest comment of the day.

    Could they get Lazarov online? yes I mentioned this in another thread roughly how much it would take.

    However, the cost is simply not worth it. The ship's condition is so bad they would need to toss insane amounts of money at it and it's not worth it to them rightfully so.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:03 am

    walle83 wrote:If China could get the old rustbucket Varyag back in shape then offcource its possible to repair all the old Kirov:s. The question is just if its economical worth it.
    Personaly i dont think so. Yes I would love seing these impressive ships back at sea but how many corvettes and frigates can you get for the same price?
    If the price for 1 updated Kirov = 4 brand new frigates, then frigates is my choice.

    Forget frigates, if the estimates we had are true then price would approach value of 2 Yasen subs.

    Even 1 would make whole thing redundant but almost 2 are no brainer.

    Nuke sub > surface ship, any day of the week
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:37 am

    these ships are from teh 70s and 80s.. pretty much none of the wiring or piping would be worth keeping anyway... it just makes sense to replace it all and start from a hull.

    And arithmetic makes no sense in this case as four frigates can't do what one cruiser can do... just like having 20 frigates does not mean you don't need a light carrier that can carry 20 VSTOL aircraft.. for a start where are you going to find the sailors to crew 20 frigates.. Russia is not going to have a huge Navy so quality matters in addition to quantity.
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    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:44 am

    GarryB wrote:for a start where are you going to find the sailors to crew 20 frigates.

    lol1

    Russia can comfortably operate 20 or more heavy frigates/light destroyers (> 5,000t).
    Finding sailors is no issue, especially given that modern frigates of 6,000t (FREMM) require 130 crew (150 crew incl. air component).

    In comparison the brown water, 950t missile patrol boats (aka submarine candy) of the Buyan-M class require ~40 sailors. angry
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:these ships are from teh 70s and 80s.. pretty much none of the wiring or piping would be worth keeping anyway... it just makes sense to replace it all and start from a hull.

    And arithmetic makes no sense in this case as four frigates can't do what one cruiser can do... just like having 20 frigates does not mean you don't need a light carrier that can carry 20 VSTOL aircraft.. for a start where are you going to find the sailors to crew 20 frigates.. Russia is not going to have a huge Navy so quality matters in addition to quantity.

    A sole frigate? no, it couldn't but enough frigates suppress the concentration of weapons.

    In this case frigate would be better has the Russians could distribute missile platforms over a wider range of four ships for example then one.

    I am not saying russia doesn't need cruisers they do, but you said yourself they will never have a huge navy. So they will never have a huge amount of cruisers to start with frankly if they dos tart making Lider's I'd be surprised if they made more then six of em.
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    Post  Azi on Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:05 pm

    I can't belive that upgrading Lazarov would be more expensive than building a new destroyer (Lider) or a new cruiser. They have NO development cost and the hull exist! The only one big problem would be the nuclear reactor, nothing more. For me it's just a excuse for Russia having not the manpower, shipbuilding capacity and know how now to rebuild or build more than 1 big ship at the same time.

    Russia has now not the support of Ukraine, or any other nation, to build a big ship, they are to 100% relied on themselves. To rebuild the capacity for shipbuilding industry they start small with corvettes and smaller frigates and go later (around 2025) for big ships. My very personal opinion!

    It would be a big mistake not reactivating Lazarov soon. Smaller ships are not bad and nice, but they lack endurance and abilities. A big cruiser can implement an A2/AD zone of 500 km radius in ocean (with S-500) and help friendly subs from being hunted and detected by enemy planes and helicopters. The endurance is much higher and it can work as a command center for a fleet.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:36 pm

    Azi wrote:I can't belive that upgrading Lazarov would be more expensive than building a new destroyer (Lider) or a new cruiser. They have NO development cost and the hull exist! The only one big problem would be the nuclear reactor, nothing more. For me it's just a excuse for Russia having not the manpower, shipbuilding capacity and know how now to rebuild or build more than 1 big ship at the same time.

    Russia has now not the support of Ukraine, or any other nation, to build a big ship, they are to 100% relied on themselves. To rebuild the capacity for shipbuilding industry they start small with corvettes and smaller frigates and go later (around 2025) for big ships. My very personal opinion!

    It would be a big mistake not reactivating Lazarov soon. Smaller ships are not bad and nice, but they lack endurance and abilities. A big cruiser can implement an A2/AD zone of 500 km radius in ocean (with S-500) and help friendly subs from being hunted and detected by enemy planes and helicopters. The endurance is much higher and it can work as a command center for a fleet.

    Banderastani support. LOL. Banderastan is not even in the condition to help itself and would be a negative support for Russia.

    All you Russia hating clowns are pathetic. The days of behemoth ships, including air craft carriers, is long over. In the missile era it
    makes more sense to have several smaller ships packing massive missile firepower than one big ship clumping the same capacity in one
    big target. Really, the fascination with massive ships is idiotic. Why not just pack the whole navy into a single super sci-fi ship. It will
    make it easier for the enemy to take the whole outfit out all at once.

    Russia can build the massive atomic ice breakers but can't swap out the nuclear power plant on the Nakhimov? Put the crack pipe down.
    It's giving you serious brain damage.

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